#301 Posted by Draxyle (1825 posts) -

@leinad44 said:

I have to stop reading youtube comments. It's bad for my health.

Yuuup. Luckily the bad ones are down-voted to hell, but it's crazy to see these people completely validate what Patrick is saying with zero self-awareness. It'd be comical, if it weren't so sad.

But excellent job, Scoops. It does take guts to admit when you've fallen to the wrong side of things.

#302 Edited by Hailinel (24293 posts) -

Isn't GTA supposed to hold a mirror to society? I thought the sexism in GTA was part of its commentary on how much society and the media fails in those areas but Patrick made it sound like it was genuinely hateful. I've not played GTA5 yet so I don't know, seems tough to believe.

I'm not a fan of Patrick, I think I'm allowed to say that. It's not because his opinions rile me up or anything, I completely agree with loads of stuff he says and writes about, and I guess that's my problem. I'm already there, and if I'm gonna be told stuff I know I need a little sharpness of wit to freshen it up, some pithy reduction I can quote or refer people to. Weirdly I tend to find this in the comments on his articles where people challenge his (and my) opinions in interesting ways.

I'd love it if the bullshit comments would go away, but I don't believe censorship, naming and shaming, or some fairytale idea that simply telling people to be nice will fix the problem. The solution is a technical one, where people can express agreement in some more formal manner than simply quoting for truth. You're not going to cure an asshole.

GTA doesn't hold a mirror to society. It's a gross caricature of society, exaggerating the worst elements in poorly written, poorly executed attempts at satire. GTAV's writing is at its best when the game isn't aiming to be satirical.

#303 Posted by MikeFerrari7 (187 posts) -

I really enjoyed GTAV, and don't have anything against their portrayal of any group of people, because I feel that they dish it out pretty evenly, not out of some secret hate for certain groups. However, I often find their humor to be of a quality equal to poop and fart jokes. It's almost like watching Epic Movie or Scary Movie ###, unfunny.

#304 Edited by theManUnknown (163 posts) -

@insectecutor said:

Isn't GTA supposed to hold a mirror to society? I thought the sexism in GTA was part of its commentary on how much society and the media fails in those areas but Patrick made it sound like it was genuinely hateful. I've not played GTA5 yet so I don't know, seems tough to believe.

See, I used to think that too, but it's been a harder and harder for me to find that stance legitimate as time goes on. Idle Thumbs has a really good example of an annoying habit 'satirical' or parodic games will fall into. It doesn't really in itself concern social matters, but I think it illustrates the same sort of problem admirably.

Basically, suppose that you and I set out to make a parody of SNES and other early era JPRGs—nevermind our actual dispositions to the genre, just run with it for now. In making this game we would certainly want to highlight and lampshade every sort of funny, strange, and peculiar quirk which pervades the genre, and maybe even call out a couple of specific titles for affectionate teasing. It's all going splendid. Now, naturally we'd also want to hold mirror up to some pitfalls of the genre—some genuine annoyances we have with them.

And, of course, one of the first such examples would be the frustratingly long and tedious boss battles where the dickbag has a ludicrous number of transformations and separate forms he undergoes just as the player depletes his health for the umpteenth time and so on. Basically, for whatever reason suppose that we took issue with this trope, and found it instead to artificially and cheaply lengthen boss fights at the direct expense of a players direct enjoyment of the game. There's no way we could set out to parody classic RPGs without touching on this. So what do we do? We exaggerate and hyperbolize it. Our big bad evil guy ends up having 20 or 30 bullshit super-forms or more, and every step of the way the protagonists and the villain himself are notable self-aware of this absurdity and increasingly exasperated and so on. It's hilarious, I'm sure.

But however successful this parody of RPGs may or may not end up being, there is one particular aspect wherein we indubitably failed far beyond any appropriate measure of expression. If we had at any point sought to actually address and deal with those issues we perceived to be legitimately holding our favorite genre back, we may rest assured: we did not do that. For, in lieu of actually confronting the bullshit artificially lengthened boss fight, we instead made one even more bullshit, and still subjected our players to that experience. However clever we might have been our presentation and execution, at the end of the day we still made another goddamn bossfight that just won't fucking end. We had a golden opportunity to make the exception that proves the rule, and instead made the quintessential example.

This has been a overly-long way to articulate a point that probably doesn't need so much context to argue. I apologize for that. It doesn't help that it's late at night here and my writing style gets stupid and pretentious when I'm tired (I swear I almost used 'articulability' at some point or another). Nonetheless, I think it's an observation worth noting that illustrating or bringing attention to a problem, while not inherently bad or destructive, is not the same as actually addressing and fixing persistent and lingering issues. Grand Theft Auto, since its inception, has always held this so-called mirror up to American society and demonstrated and illustrated all of our failings and hypocrisies and so on. The delivery, as always, is fantastic, and to the end that Rockstar wanted to remind all of us that videogames and society are pretty damn deplorable and sexist, they succeeded brilliantly. But what they haven't and have never done is actually help move videogames (and the little sliver of society videogames can be said to represent) beyond these problems. It's insensible to think that GTA was somehow unable to do this if it had so-desired: GTA V is a multibillion dollar production, let alone the financial scale of the franchise as a whole behind it, and the company behind that. The opportunity was there to show the world what the next step is beyond this systematic problems, and that opportunity was ignored.

I suppose all I mean to say is this: if you want to improve the quality of acting down at your local community theater (which has, of late, been absolutely horrific), you ultimately have two options. You can send Tommy Wiseau to be your next Hamlet, or you can send Laurence Olivier. Both, at the end of the day, will have beyond measure of all doubt assured everyone just how bad the acting at the theater has been, but only one will have actually improved it.

So. I don't want to criticize GTA for not doing something it never promised it was going to do in the first place, but I can understand peoples' exasperation if they are tired of yet more illustrations and examples of just what is wrong with the status quo, and would instead appreciate something that really attempts to change it.

#305 Posted by golguin (3869 posts) -

I watched the whole speech. It was really good. He was a bit wobbly at the start, but he got better and ended really strong.

#306 Edited by Humanity (9026 posts) -

@insectecutor said:

@marokai said:

@w1n5t0n said:

Also to play devil's advocate on trollish comments to his articles like the sexism ones. I think its easier to gloss over comments being critical of you and just labeling them trolls. At most on those article I saw people having heated but civil debates, if there were outright trolls they definitely got deleted. Maybe I'm just seeing them with rose tinted glasses.

This is really my only issue with the talk and the general "man, the internet is such an awful place, why can't we have more level headed dialogue?" thing going on right now. That there's no actual dialogue between these nebulous two groups of people. Trolls are always going to exist, no matter what you say or do, but if you look deeper there are always going to be wiser individuals having an intelligent conversation or making sober points to the contrary, and if you're summing up most of your reaction to "the internet" as being negative and full of angry hate, you're perpetuating the problem and, perhaps inadvertently, inciting more anger from people who feel like they're being condescended to or mischaracterized.

This was discussed a lot in a thread from a couple weeks ago or so centered on one of Danny's "The Point" videos from Gamespot; the solution to this problem is people coming together and making an effort to understand each other. The solution to anger isn't condescension or guilt-tripping, it's reaching out a hand, or keeping your eyes and ears open, to try and understand where the opposition is coming from. Thankfully, Giant Bomb as a community is much more resistant to this toxicity than most others. Dialogue is the key here, though, which is why I wouldn't begrudge someone for feeling like many in the press spend time talking about "internet anger" in such a way as to pat each other on the back for how awesome, and super smart, and so enlightened they are. Some people in the press or on blogs or on social media that work in our specific industry seem far more concerned with having dialogue amongst themselves, instead of with their listeners.

If this sort of toxicity is ever to be quelled, it requires the opposite approach and a touch of humility from all involved. Patrick's intentions here are good, and I congratulate him for a successful TEDx talk, but sometimes I wish there would be a little less preaching about the problem and a little more practicing for a solution.

100% with you on pretty much everything you said here. I've often heard that simply responding to comments directly makes trolls immediately back down, engagement is totally necessary, although it's difficult to respond to everyone personally it's important to be visibly involved in the conversation rather than just shouting from the pulpit.

Edit: also, please link that thread you mentioned!

I don't know if the change Patrick advocates is even possible. You are asking the world to play nice and that is never going to happen.

I couldn't agree more about the comment regarding press preferring to talk among themselves rather than mingle with the masses. I love Giant Bomb and I'm a huge fan of Jeff, but oftentimes his attitude towards people with dissenting opinions is downright dismissive if not mocking. That doesn't make him a bad person, but he is a guy of very strong opinions that doesn't seem all that interested in a two-way discussion about them. In fact a large majority of the press treat online comments with a large degree of distance. Have you shaken Hideo Kojima's hand? What do you know about the industry? Out of the handful or so times that I've interacted with members of the staff, whether it be GiantBomb, GameSpot, whatever.. the replies to my arguments did not feel like these guys were engaging me in an open discussion, but rather very curtly stating why I wasn't right in the first place. At the same time considering all the idiotic, vile and inflammatory hate people spew in comments on a daily basis, it's really hard to blame them for constantly being on the defensive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the dream. I've gotten into the habit of simply backing out of discussions that I see will lead to nowhere rather than trying to demean the other person until I think I've "won." The internet is a big open place, and for better and for worse it is open to everyone. This means a lot of young and immature teens are going to use it as an outlet for their puberty driven insipid drivel. At some point it will be up to the parents to school their coming of age children in not only proper etiquette in real life, which is increasingly becoming a rarity, but also how to interact with other human beings online.

That said it was a good talk, good job, you didn't crash and burn Patrick.

#307 Edited by Fattony12000 (7270 posts) -

Okay, I'm only now just reading the first two pages of this thread and what the shitting Christ is happening.

What the shitting Christ is happening.

#308 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4673 posts) -

This tangent is sort of kind of on-topic, vaguely.

I really don't want the Internet to change. At all. If anything, I miss the days when people were even bigger dicks to each other. At least assholes were honest then, and you didn't have to obfuscate your insults behind carefully worded rhetoric. If someone was being an asshole, you just told them to fuck off. It was assumed said asshole could handle it and they didn't have thin skin.

Then again, I've never been a public figure on the Internet. I've never divulged much about myself on the 'net. I grew up before the Internet was a common thing. Back when I was logging on for the first time, as a child I was warned it was a haven for pedophiles and delinquents. It still is, I suppose, but back in the day you were warned never to divulge personal information. So I didn't. Point I'm making is this; I've never had to deal with an onslaught of hundreds (if not thousands) of people telling me how horrible of a shitbag I am. So there is perhaps some merit to this "everyone just be nice to each other! Please!" nonsense. I mean, really, at most it was a few dozen angry PMs on a long forgotten message board. Or several.

I also didn't grow up with my name and face attached to a profile that anyone could look at. I never dealt with cyber bullying because the Internet, in its way, was probably the safest place for me. Sure it was full of dicks, but I could vent, argue, wax homicidal and figure myself out as well as work through my issues. Thinking of it now, it's actually stunning to learn that kids today have no such "safe place" to just cut loose and act like terrible shits if they need to. Social Media has all but obliterated anonymity for a large group of people. I find that sad. And depressing.

I suppose that's where we stand now. The Internet is two very different places. There are gentrifying forces who seek to dismantle everything I love about the Internet, and there are others who revel in the chaos of it all. I admit, I love that chaos. I love how fucking weird the Internet is. It's been wonderful to see people act so utterly human. I hope it doesn't have to end.

I mean really, in a gentrified Internet, where the hell does a video like this fit?

#309 Posted by Ghost_Cat (1423 posts) -

I almost don't want to watch this because the frame is perfect.

#310 Edited by Marokai (2870 posts) -

@humanity: I share similar doubts on whether this world that Patrick envisions is possible, but I certainly think it's an effort worth pursuing. But totally, it has to be remembered that this is a two way street. If the goal is a mutual understanding and sense of respect from public figures and their listeners/readers/followers/whathaveyou, then that respect has to be shown from both sides. Public figures have to resist the temptation to generalize and be hostile to their communities, and instead mingle with them, and respect them, unless given a specific reason to do otherwise, of course. That desire for two-way communication seems to be missing, which is kind of a critical piece of this puzzle.

There's a lot of talk about how to solve this problem, and how to work to lower the temperature of the rhetoric, but very few seem to be putting their money where their mouth is, so to speak. Not to put too fine of a point on it, but I don't think it's any kind of coincidence that Vinny or Rorie are fan favorites, while Brad or Alex beget hostility or derision. Or that it's any coincidence that Patrick-hate declined as his efforts to listen to criticism and be more inclusive to what content he covered increased. You reap what you sew.

@insectecutor: http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/danny-o-dwyer-why-are-gamers-so-angry-1454058/ There was a lot of great, kind, productive discussion there, I think.

#311 Posted by thatdutchguy (1271 posts) -

Good Job Patrick !

#312 Posted by steelerzfan101 (270 posts) -

Pretty cool stuff! Good talk by scoops!

#313 Edited by Sylect (29 posts) -

I just finished it and I think Patrick did a fantastic job (especially when he kept it together talking about his father, I don't think I could have).

#314 Posted by expensiveham (290 posts) -

Did not enjoy the speech and it made me think less of Patrick.

#315 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3632 posts) -

Did not enjoy the speech and it made me think less of Patrick.

I often disagree with Patrick, but did agree with most of what he said here. Care to elaborate?

#316 Posted by smileyforall220 (31 posts) -

I can only hope that the comments during the livestream weren't from giant bomb, otherwise, my god is the giantbomb community pathetic

#317 Edited by jimmyfenix (3852 posts) -

@smileyforall220: A 4 chan group decided to hijack the chat. The comments in that chat were right down disgusting.

#318 Posted by FunkasaurasRex (847 posts) -

@smileyforall220: A 4 chan group decided to hijack the chat. The comments in that chat were right down disgusting.

That fucking sucks, although there's kind of an irony to that happening I guess.

Kudos on the speech @patrickklepek, you had some motherfucking swagger up there. I don't know if you're into taking advice/criticism from plebs like me, but my understanding has always been that you should not read entire slides during your presentation. Reading that entire passage from Carolyn's review felt a little stilted in particular; I don't know if you felt the need read that paragraph for the viewers at home, but I think you could have incorporated it into your presentation more fluidly if you had refrained from reading it in it's entirety and instead pulled key quotes and moved along.

#319 Posted by jgf (383 posts) -

@expensiveham: I did not enjoy your comment and it made me think less of you.

#320 Posted by Wolf3 (54 posts) -

Wish it was louder-I have Youtube and my PC set to max and it's like half as loud as I'd like. The audio quality is clear though, thankfully!

Five minutes in so far, and it's EXCELLENT! I've never seen a ted talk before, and I'll admit it's taken me a loooong time to warm up to the "new guy" on Giant Bomb (that fact that Patrick likes Skyward Sword did not help matters, not that I want everyone to agree with me, but...), but I'm liking him a lot on Bombin' the AM, and I'm liking this talk too. I LOVE people like him that can talk about games and other issues in a nuanced and mature (not to mention fascinating) way.

#322 Posted by MelissaPeterson (23 posts) -

@fattony12000: Darn those YouTube captions, always trying to start something!

#323 Posted by dudeglove (7723 posts) -

He told 46,000 people to go and die in a fire? Daaaaaaaaayum.

#324 Posted by Sharingan (37 posts) -

Well spoken Patrick.