Politics & the Presidency in the USA **Now With Fun Quiz!**

I'm curious as to how many of the American duders here on this fourm pay attention to politics. How many of you take the time to check out the main talking points of all the people running for president? Do you even vote at all or do you abstain?

There are some people who consider talking about politics taboo and believe it leads to nothing but trouble. I strongly disagree. More people should discuss politics and talk about what matters the most to them and why. Often times it seems like people can get intrenched in their own viewpoints. If you take the time to talk to others and figure out why other people feel the way they do then that leads to understanding which broadens your horizons and allows you to see the issues in a new light.

Another frustrating thing are those who are apathetic to the political process on the whole. The kind of people who say "it doesn't even matter, both sides are the same." It only takes one minute of research to quickly realize how different the people running are. Even within parties the various contenders have some radically different view points.

To the American duders, if you haven't already, I have to ask that you please take the time to at the very least take a look through the official websites for the people running for president and learn what they look like. Some of you spent hours arguing about and researching sexism in video games. That's great. Now take some of that passion and focus it on what you feel the major issues facing the country are. Spend some time investigating the people who are running for President and see who's ideals best line up with your own and tell others why. To those outside of the United States, you also may find it fascinating to take a look at just how different these candidates are. Images were taken from The New York Times.

The following people are currently running as Republicans.

Person	Official Website
	https://www.tedcruz.org
	https://randpaul.com
	https://marcorubio.com
	https://www.bencarson.com
	https://carlyforpresident.com
	http://www.mikehuckabee.com
	http://www.ricksantorum.com
	http://www.georgepataki.com
	https://jeb2016.com
	http://www.lindseygraham.com
	https://rickperry.org
	https://www.donaldjtrump.com
	http://www.bobbyjindal.com
	https://www.chrischristie.com

The following people are currently running as Democrats.

Person	Official Website
	https://www.hillaryclinton.com
	https://berniesanders.com
	https://martinomalley.com
	http://www.chafee2016.com
	https://www.webb2016.com

So, now that you are more informed

I present the question, who do you feel would make the best president and why? Which issues are most important to you?

**Now With Fun Quiz!**

There is a quiz available on the website ISideWith.com that lists out some of the larger issues and you answer them as far as how important they are to you and what you feel about them. It is fairly short and at the end gives you a neat breakdown of several statistics including the percentage to which you agree with the presidential candidates as well as other stuff like which party you side with the most. It has a pretty detailed breakdown once you finish the quiz so feel free to click around to find out why exactly you got the results that you did.

http://www.isidewith.com

Even if you are not for the US you can still take the quiz and share your results. Here is what I got. Apparently I agree more with Donald Trump than I do with Jeb Bush.

For me personally, Bernie Sanders is the best person for the job. I have yet to find a single thing I disagree with him about on the various issues he has discussed. His "12 Steps Forward Economic Agenda" was really what solidified my support for him. A transcript of the video below is available here if you would prefer to just read what he has to say.

Infrastructure and climate change are both important topics that deserve more attention and as he mentions in the video, focusing on them provides the added benefit of creating new jobs. Points 8, 10 and 11 about the price of education, healthcare and social security are also great.

8. In today's highly competitive global economy, millions of Americans are unable to afford the higher education they need in order to get good-paying jobs. Further, with both parents now often at work, most working-class families can't locate the high-quality and affordable child care they need for their kids. Quality education in America, from child care to higher education, must be affordable for all. Without a high-quality and affordable educational system, we will be unable to compete globally and our standard of living will continue to decline.

10. The United States must join the rest of the industrialized world and recognize that health care is a right of all, and not a privilege. Despite the fact that more than 40 million Americans have no health insurance, we spend almost twice as much per capita on health care as any other nation. We need to establish a Medicare-for-all, single-payer system.

11. Millions of seniors live in poverty and we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of any major country. We must strengthen the social safety net, not weaken it. Instead of cutting Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and nutrition programs, we should be expanding these programs.

I am a firm believer that the government can and should help those who are are in need. Not only is it morally the right thing to do, but it ends up benefiting society as a whole. By bringing those people at the bottom up it provides more opportunities for these people to make a positive difference to the world. Help one person, and that person goes on to help someone else and so on and so forth. Butterfly effect and all that jazz.

Even if he doesn't win, if enough people show their support for him then it sends the message that what he is saying is important and people agree with it. The same goes for every other candidate. Giant Bomb loves having fun with its 404 pages so you guys of all people should appreciate the 404 page for his site. https://berniesanders.com/404

I think Sanders and Paul are the only politicians on their sides that would try for any dramatic changes. I agree with Sanders more than Paul on issues. Hilary will win the Dem ticket though, and then probably win the election. If this happens she will have the same kind of presidency as Obama: disappointing.

It's too bad that it's pretty much already locked into Bush vs Clinton. I don't think either would make a very good president. In an ideal world, you'd end up with Paul vs Warren but not a chance that happens.

The problem is the machinations and middle-road aiming seemingly required to win mean that the winner needs to at least fake centrism to win. That fucking sucks. Issues like Climate Change, Gay Rights, Teacher Unions, College Loans, Infrastructure spending, Defense Spending, Privacy and Security Laws, Equal opportunity and pay, and Healthcare don't really have a center. They have, to be a blunt pedantic dick, right and wrong. Right is the government acting as a caring safeguard that makes sure people have all the freedom they deserve rather than corporations who have already destroyed nature to a point beyond recovery and fought all reforms that cut their pay. Wrong is protecting the status quo out of a false equivalence between tradition and morals.

Rant off, I get why people get frustrated. It sucks. It sucks voting for Obama who did a lot right, but was kneecapped at every turn by cowards and blowhards looking to win the next election instead of help the country. It sucks that Obama, fearing a repeat Bush policy of American World Policing, took a bullshit half-measure of death drones without any oversight.

It sucks that one party still holds to a line that will literally kill millions of people--denying climate change. Seriously. I want there to be a sharing of ideas and compromise here, but that shit makes voting Republican an act of self-destruction. I mean, the front runner: When asked if he believed that global warming was primarily man-made, Bush claimed, "I'm a skeptic. I'm not a scientist." (ontheissues.com)

It should be that Democrats are the kindly uncle that sometimes overspends or shakes the hand of the angry guy down the street, making him more angry. It should be that Republicans are the cost-saving grandpa who sometimes spends too little and creates too many F15s. Whatever, the metaphor broke. The point is, the parties should both be viable. Right now, they are not.

When it's a choice between drones, debt, compromise or arma-fucking-geddon. Yeah, I'll vote Democrat. Until that changes, it's a goddamn moral obligation.

I can't help but feel disillusioned at this point. I still pay attention to the issues, but this presidential contest is Hilary Clinton's to lose and I don't think the Republicans will get their shit together enough to avoid either a far-right crazy or a Romney-Esque milquetoast centrist.

I have to agree with you on Sanders. I've felt pretty good about most things he's spoken on, and his name reminds me of fried chicken.

Sadly, this election makes me weary... I don't want to sound like a downer, but I feel like people will just vote for a female candidate for the sake of electing the first female president, and not their policies.

The most disappointing thing about Clinton is her campaign management. It's clear that the whole organization feels as though their best bet is to make absolutely zero waves, and to say almost nothing of import until an inauguration rolls up. I would desperately like for her to sound authentic (self-actualized authenticity, irrespective of what constituency is being courted), but so far as I can tell it's going to be 24/7 towing the party line, and the Democratic party line isn't constructive so much as less destructive than the Republican party line.

Also, to the OP: try not to level criticism against the personal interests and engagements of people you're attempting to mobilize. It has the tendency to either put them on the defensive or make them feel like shit, neither of which encourages the action you want them to take.

Absolutely and definitively none of the above.

Any Republican or Democrat in the White House, no matter who they may be and how strong their integrity, will become little more than a mouthpiece for their party, and therefore powerless to enact or even encourage any lasting positive change. The Obama that ran and won thanks to the teeming teary eyed masses, is objectively not the Obama as president. And as optimistically earnest as someone like Bernie seems, I guarantee you he'd be a different person in the Office.

The only hope the US has to end the posturing, trend driven politicking that leaves the needy needing and only serves those already in power to gather more of it... is to vote third party.

I deeply encourage any Democrats here to even briefly peruse the Green Party platform. Fwiw, I personally disagree with most of those positions, but for others here who feel they fit along the "liberal" lines, the Green Party is working for everything you care about. That other "liberal" party that panders as hard as it can while doing as little as possible, has become a hollow sham. Yet tens of millions of well meaning folks gleefully feed that machine hoping "this time it'll be different".

It won't.

I am shocked (and I can't emphasise that word enough) that Hillary has no "Issues" section on her campaign site. Something that I thought was pretty critical. A list detailing what a candidate wants to focus on if elected and maybe how they'll go about it. It's not very complicated, and I'd thought that without something like that a candidate would have no legitimate supporters as they wouldn't really know what they were supporting.

Clearly, that's not the case.

And in a tragic way, it's brilliant. Clinton has 3 things going for her. She's a celebrity. She's a Democrat (whatever that means in the minds of similarly self-labeled people). And she's a woman. The most vague and meaningless things put at the forefront means that she can attract the biggest audience possible.

Whoever the republican candidate ends up being, they'll inevitably do or say something that's considered sexist. Social media will explode, and then we'll watch President Clinton the 2nd walk right into the White House. Having done nothing but... having done nothing.

Sometimes, I really want to move to Iceland.

Quoted for emphasis.

@bocam said:

Ah shit did I fuck up somewhere? What part should I change and how?

Man, how fucking awesome would an Elizabeth Warren vs. Rand Paul race be. Sanders has potential, but I really see both Warren and Paul as catalysts for change.

@darthorange: pretty much remove the first paragraph and the first two sentences of the second paragraph. Or edit heavily.

I will pay more attention when the number of days before the election is not a triple digit. This'll be the first presidential election I will legally be allowed to vote in, but with 17 months left, it is quite difficult for me to care at the moment.

I have the great privilege to live in a state with the following key features:

1. Both parties conduct open caucuses. This means I can go in, tick Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders for giggles, and feel moderately bummed when, inevitably, they don't become the candidates.

2. The state has leaned Democrat for the better part of the last three decades. Since we operate on a first-past-the-post system and the most populated areas are, barring San Diego, democratic strongholds, I can feel moderately certain my vote won't be a deciding factor either way.

This has given me a marvelous opportunity: I am completely able to vote along ethical and philosophical lines without repercussion. I will be able to tick the boxes on the big-name cards that tickle my particular brand of loonish, Spanish Anarchist fantasy, because unless 51% of the state suddenly thinks like I do come election time my vote will absolutely not alter the delegation that gets sent to the electoral college in any way. I'm fully aware that this kind of thinking is probably very detrimental to the entire function of American democracy, but frankly I don't care. The notion that I will almost literally not matter, at all, in my state's election has taken an enormous strain off my shoulders: I no longer need to pick a side. I have a horse in the race, but it is the lame, rheumatic perma-pony that would only win in the context of a Disney film. I can choose what I want, safe in the knowledge that less than a percent of people will be voting my way anyway. And if, Lord Willing, I happen to be wrong - if third parties manage to actually pick up votes because of people like me - then perhaps, finally, I can feel proud that I took part. And who knows, right? Stranger things have happened in the past.

Now, to begin the long and arduous search for the mythical Green party or Syndicalist candidate that happens to be pro-gun.

I have voted independent and will continue to do so until this two party system gets fixed.

It's way too fucking early to care about presidential campaigns. I hate how this fucking country starts this bullshit so early to only highlight the disgusting amount of money that is needed for campaign budgets and the depressing amount of fellating politicians have to do to wealthy interest groups to get said money.

Having to pick though from the poor list above I would go with Rand for Republican and Bernie for Democrat. I don't consider Rand to be that great but I prefer his libertarian tendencies versus any of the crackpot candidates that have announced running so far. Bernie would be my ideal candidate overall because he doesn't sugarcoat or bullshit you. He gives you his views straight instead of letting every facet of his being from his talking points to his physical appearance be meticulously crafted by strategists to the point of being obviously manufactured like Hillary is.

In reality though neither of the people I mentioned will get anywhere. Rand won't ever get enough money to be a strong candidate and will continue to only attract a niche group and Bernie will also never get the amount of money that Hillary will be able to get and Bernie is already being torn apart by what looks like a carefully orchestrated media blitz by the big name news stations who are trying to pound the idea into the minds of their viewers that he's an insignificant candidate with no hope of gaining traction.

Hope America has fun getting to pick between the Bush or Clinton Dynasties next year because that's more than likely what is going to happen here.

Ugh, this fucking country. Ugh!

Edit: You forgot to add dipshit Senator Graham, who recently announced his Republican candidacy, to the League of Extraordinary Idiots.

@skullpanda1: The two party system is working perfectly, I think that is the problem. The current winner take all system means that there can only be two prominent parties, those in power and those who directly oppose them. The best way to have a multiple party system would be proportional representation but that would require a major overhaul of the American political system (an overhaul I am fully in favor of).

I also think people need to remember it wasn't that long ago that our system worked marvelously. Last century we won two wold wars, sent a man to the moon, built a highway system that crisscrossed our massive nation, funded a rebuild of a decimated Europe, won the Cold War, gave women and African Americans the right to vote, created some of the greatest minds for generations to come and provided a sanctuary for those that were born somewhere else. That is a hell of a resume considering the previous century was a shit one for us up till the Industrial Revolution (and even then eh). We can bitch and moan about how the system is screwing us over but it was the same system our grandparents and great grandparents used to make this country the most powerful since the English Empire in its heyday. If the political system isn't working in this country it is more of a reflection of the poor quality of citizenry we have now (aka us) than it is a reflection of the political system itself.

This election is looking like a super bummer. My presidential vote isn't going to matter anyway, since Texas will be republican yet again. It's extra lame, since my county is such a democrat stronghold that no candidates even bother campaigning here for either party. So we only get crossover ads aimed at New Mexico.

Mostly it's looking like one of those times that no matter who wins, we all lose. Hillary, or whoever might beat her, has no chance of passing any meaningful legislation with such a hateful and divided congress, and I weep for the nation should most of the republicans win. Hurray for a battle between the party of no and the party of no opinion. I'll probably just end up voting for whichever 3rd party candidate has the best action hero name. It's not going to matter anyway.

There is only one candidate that isn't a puppet for corporate interests. That makes them the least electable person as well. No matter what happens, the country will still be drone striking citizens in the middle east without trials, will still allow banks to gamble with the world's money at high risk for no gain outside of their own pockets, and wealth inequality will grow. I sound like an extreme crazy person, but that's the state of politics. It isn't good enough to just say a general statement about politics being corrupt and continuing with your day.

Most of these candidates don't matter and really it would be a waste of time and energy to pay attention to all of them.

For one most state primaries (which help determine who the party nominee will be who will them run for president) aren't for at least 6 months, some much longer. Even then most states, not all, only allow voters to vote within their own party. Meaning if you're a registered Republican you can't vote in a Democrat's primary, only the Republican one. So again that's even less you really need to worry about.

The election doesn't begin in earnest until next summer and really until the fall when the presidential debates happen. So for now voters can ignore pretty much everything. Once primary season begins then they can learn about candidates in their party and then, again, tune out until summer.

The fervor and inflated excitement over these people running is all news media. They need you riled up, angry, concerned, or generally agitated so you're constantly looking for more coverage and "insight". Learn about the process, learn how it all works, and you'll find yourself still informed and much, much happier.

@twigger89: I can only repair my 18 yr old truck so many times before it's time to junk it.

Mediocre analogy aside, we agree on a lot. Yes the US accomplished a lot. Unfortunately we've since become unable to accomplish seemingly anything under the spell of "pulling oneself up by your bootstraps" which is practically impossible for anyone.

I hope that if enough people vote 3rd party maybe the big 2 will at least shape up.

Ummm...only two of those Republican are actually running with any chance of having a even slim chance to get picked at the convention. Those others are just posturing.

So are you guys planning on voting in the primaries or nah?

To you guys saying you will vote third party because you feel that is the best way to move towards change, how do you feel about the Supreme Court? At least one or two of the current justices are likely on their way out, so whoever is president is going to get to appoint the next justicesesjustice's justices' (spelling?). Do you guys feel that either party would appoint a similar person or do you feel that helping a third party get closer to winning is more important?

Sanders and Rand Paul. Rand Paul seems to believe in conspiracy theories... though being realistic, it doesn't really matter.

I do however think Clinton will win and not for meritocratic reasons. I think both Clintons(i've met Bill) are well meaning but at the end of the day they seem to have fragilista views and they don't see to be very aware of how the world works, both are a bit moronic.

Ideally Warren would have been in this, she is the only person who has a specific agenda for fixing the financial sector and the will to cut through the bureaucratic BS. Her proposals might harm profits but they reduce fragility.

@darthorange: every election is billed as "the most important" election. The SC appointments are important, and I'd like to see Scalia retire. However that's still not enough to change my mind.

@darthorange: If you're basing your presidential vote on who they hypothetically would put in the Supreme Court, you've already lost. It's these little niggling fears of the evil "other" winning that keep the two main parties (i.e. the two parties least likely to wholly embody and act on a given voter's interest) in power. Having justices serve for life or retirement is idiotic anyway, and the two main parties would never do anything to change that system, as it serves them well. Emphasis on them.

More realistically, of course any third party candidate is not going to win a US presidential election any time soon. But that doesn't mean voting for them has zero effect.

It's not an accurate picture, but generally, Libertarian folks are on the "conservative" end, and Greens are more "liberal". And the undecided voters have the most sway in a federal election. So when the Dems and Reps see more votes going towards third parties, they begin to worry that those undecideds, having decided on neither of them, will cost them the election. And they change their platform accordingly.

For just one example, few people realize that legalizing same-sex marriage wasn't an official part of the Democrat platform until 2012. Twenty fucking twelve. (conveniently, that sudden change of heart happened right before Obama ran for reelection that same year)

What few people also seldom realize is that legalizing same-sex marriage has been a part of the US Green Party platform since it's establishment in 1984, and also part of the Libertarian platform since it's establishment in 1971.

From 2008 to 2012, there was a massive increase in third party voting and awareness. And no one was more aware than the strategists for the Dems and Reps. So the democrats, the traditional choice for LGBT folks to ally themselves with, feared that a swell in third party support could take the votes that they counted on from that community and its supporters away.

The result... Obama went on national TV to discuss the bullshit epiphany he had that maybe letting gay people marry would be okay (not that he'd ever do anything about it), and they won all of those "undecideds" back to the fold.

When we vote third party, we use the only tool we have to force the main two to actually get serious about positive change. We scare them. And that's more than worth it for me to "throw my vote away" every 4 years.

To put it on your terms, the more people vote Green, the more likely it will be for a candidate like Sanders to get the Dem party nomination. The more people who vote Dem, will get Clintons all the way down.

---

Edit: To be crystal clear. Despite that little rant above, I don't vote third party because of any kind of strategy or counter programming. I analyze every candidate, and vote for the person who most closely mirrors my hopes and views. Usually that's a libertarian, although in 2000 I actively helped campaign for Nader as he was the closest to me then, and in 2008 I didn't vote for any presidential candidate as there were none I was comfortable with at the time.

If US citizens would actually fearlessly vote for who they wanted out of all parties, the two main ones would crumble overnight.

This shift has very little to do with the "quality of citizenry", whatever that means. People are more well-informed now than ever, it seems to me. It does, however, have everything to do with the mass-media landscape in which we live.

The cause for our broken system, particularly when it comes to presidential elections, is very simple as far as I'm concerned: a halfway-decent presidential election costs a billion dollars, which therefore gives the campaign donors more power to affect an election than the electorate.

And to take it a step further, the reason presidential elections cost a billion dollars is because election campaigns today are more about marketing and advertising than about politics. This is why I'm cynical about American democracy. It's not that I think both parties are the same, far from it. No, I'm cynical about politics because America chooses its leaders the exact same way it chooses its favorite soft drink.

Here's how I make my voice heard: Every year at tax time, I gladly give my voluntary $3.00 to the Presidential Election Commission Fund. And if neither presidential candidate uses public funding, I don't vote for president, pure and simple.

I'm not American but I can say with certainty that I would vote for Bernie Sanders. Other than Rand Paul, who's somewhat reasonable when he feels like it, the republican candidates are a complete joke.

I almost pay more attention to American politics than Canadian, but that's just because it's more interesting.

Edit: Oh and I know very well that Sanders has no chance of winning, which is a damn shame.

Edit 2: Another damn shame? Elizabeth Warren not running.

this is the truest thing. She is the best candidate I can possibly imagine running.

I think you are agreeing with me more than you are disagreeing with me. Yes more citizens have access to and are aware of more political knowledge than ever before, but they lack the context to make that knowledge truly useful. People are no longer politically engaged (watching fox news/MSNBC and shouting at people who represent the other side of the aisle is not engagement) and therefore choose politicians based on the most surface level attributes. Let's not forget that a lot of people voted for Bush Jr because they thought he'd be more fun to have a beer with.

Our media is shit because we want it to be shit. We as a nation prefer opinionated rants over concise and well researched news reports. We as a nation decided that facts is only worthy if they back our preconceived notions. We went from Walter Cronkite to Bill O'Reilly, that is a hell of a drop.

Basically how I feel. I consider myself an Independent, and would absolutely love for both parties to be viable and actually compete for my vote, but pretty much every Republican candidate/party line on cultural issues is a fucking joke. Most of them truly are a Right vs. Wrong and they choose to cling to wrong because 'that's how things have always been,' or 'religion,' or whatever.

I am apathetic, personally, because I live in two very Democratic/Liberal cities (Austin, Houston) in a very Republican/Conservative state (Texas), so, in the grand scheme of things, my vote matters neither on a local nor a statewide/national level. As it stands now, I could not, in good conscience, vote Republican.

If all the people who were sad that Bernie Sanders "doesn't have a chance" actually got out there and started volunteering for his campaign, he'd have a chance.

I really don't think so, its sucks to feel so helpless but it will more than likely be Hilary and a less than stellar choice for the Republicans all the choices suck were just cycling through the same bullshit choices our entire government needs to be reset at this point the status quo will win forever until then.

How can anyone possibly think that voting for one superficial face or another will make any difference to the interests and desires of the people who finance the party? Do you think electing one CEO or another is going to change what the shareholders want from the company?

Elections are not how different political ideologies shake out and determine the nature of governance; lobbying is how that works. Government is a business and if you don't have capital in it, your vote might as well go in a suggestions box.

That said, I dunno, if you're liberal vote for Sanders I guess. Even if he were to win, what would actually be different from the ole Hil-dawg? Maybe vote for a third party. If it's going to be an unethical, money-grubbing clusterfuck no matter what, at least try to create some actual competition.

I will write in Ross Perot on every ballot for the rest of my life.

I would weep tears of pure joy if that ever happened.

For the record, I vote for the candidate who's views most closely align with my own and that is all that I will say about my political views.

Yup. People create a self fulfilling prophecy when they spread that kind of stuff.

You're telling me you honestly think Hillary and Sanders would be the same? Even just looking at the donors between Clinton and Sanders you can see the difference.

When I hear the debates, this is all I hear.

@darthorange The likelihood that Sanders would be able to conduct any radical change that his supporters would see as positive is about as likely as someone who designates themselves a socialist winning any kind of presidential race in the first place. At its highest, that chance was 13%, with Eugene Debbs in the 20s. We are a very, very long time away from the 20s. Besides, like Brodehouse mentioned, nearly all change that does matter substantially comes from lobbying - which shouldn't be surprising, because lobbying targets the branches that actually make and moderate the law.

@darthorange: I absolutely agree. I live in Burlington VT and had the fortune of meeting Bernie as he randomly walked by me in the central downtown park. He was kind and humble and genuine and possessed that weird aura. Now, that's obviously not reason enough to vote for him, but his record is. He is ALWAYS on the side of the masses. He isn't afraid of bringing attention to uncomfortable issues. At best he wins the presidency, at worst be makes some very stultifying and uncomfortable truths about wage disparity and corporate tax loopholes a serious topic of consideration rather than something for both the Dems and GOP to simply write off. He wants the government to work for us. That will cost tax money, but it's tax money intelligently spent (PUBLIC education, EFFECTIVE Universal health care). Here's hopin'

I used to follow politics a lot more in the past when I had more time, but I still like to remain relatively informed before I cast my vote (aka at a minimum I google every single person I vote for, even no-name district judges and committee members).

I've liked Sanders cause he was on the Science committee and actually knew what the fuck he was talking about, unlike everyone else, but I just don't think he can beat the Hilary Nation, so I'd probably vote for her unless a sane Republican pops out out of nowhere.

@jack_lafayette said:

Sounds like the Selina Meyer ticket.

Bernie Sanders is a cool motherfucker and I want him to win so fucking bad.

Nice to see people discussing politics on the internet in a lucid fashion. I'm impressed. :-P

That having been said, I have nothing to really contribute to the discussion here. I've gone full-on apathetic, haha. I think Obama was the last straw for me. So many people seemed to expect him to be a knight in shining armor. "Change we can believe in." "Yes we can!" Looking for change from a Chicago politician was, and still is, ridiculous. You don't thrive in a political environment that corrupt and warped unless you, too, are corrupt and warped. Otherwise, you'd burn out and fade. I frankly didn't vote for him back in 2008, and I stand by that.

There was one brief moment though, right after he got in office, when he got me to tilt my head in curiosity. Those first couple months made me doubt myself. Calls for transparency in the government, overtures to allies we had alienated, efforts to rein in some of our "Patriot Act" excesses, etc.. Maybe he was the real deal and he was really going to sort stuff out. "Perhaps I'm just too damned cynical and jaded," I thought to myself.

Nope. I mean, yeah... I'm a cynical, jaded prick. I'm not denying that, but Obama is also every bit the piece of trash I thought he would be. Transparency in government? Oh please. Improvements in our relationships with allies? Well, the egregious spying on them via the NSA certainly helped that. Oh, and I'm sure Europe is grateful that we overthrew Gaddafi's regime in Libya and turned that nation into a collection of militia-owned fiefdoms brimming with Islamic extremists. All the refugees flooding Libya's poorly guarded shores in an effort to cross the Mediterranean into Europe proper just screams "gesture of friendship" to me. You're welcome, cousins. Don't worry, Libya's southern neighbors have it far worse than you do. They get attacked by Islamists that then fade back into lawless Libya after each raid. You just have boat people. Far more pleasant. Hm, what else? What about the American-backed coup in Ukraine that destabilized Eastern Europe and dragged Russia further into China's orbit? Nothing says "noble" more than encouraging people to overthrow a corrupt puppet and then NOT helping them when the puppet's backers, understandably, invade in response.

The Patriot Act excesses? Well, the excesses under the Bush regime seem far less so compared to what we have now. That's... that's mission accomplished in a way, I suppose. I'm glad that every U.S. citizen is having evidence compiled about them at all moments... just in case. I also like how that apparatus is used to inform drone attacks in sovereign nations, some of which are purportedly our allies. Why respect international law or the borders of other countries? Some drone strikes have intentionally targeted and killed Americans who have gone overseas to help our enemies in Yemen or Iraq. Fair enough, but where were their trials? When were they declared enemies of the state and sentenced to death for treason? You can't just kill citizens of this country without due process, or so I thought until the Obama regime. A regime that respects the Constitution so little that the Supreme Court has had to take to spanking the president time and time again for trying to push executive orders and legislation against its spirit. That's some change to believe in. Ironically fun change, considering Obama's degree.

I like this country, but I have almost no hope for its government. Hillary is as corrupt as they come, beyond even my initial expectations. I expected some backroom favors and quid-pro-quo rubbish, but her Clinton Foundation surpasses anything I could have ever imagined (The Clintons wouldn't speak on behalf of a charity building schools in Haiti until they were promised a $500,000 cut of any proceeds, to be given to their "foundation" because taxes aren't fun. Oh, and Bill had to be an "honored" speaker, not just a plain one). She'll play up the gender angle, trot out her grandchildren, casually draw attention to the budgetary surplus from the last years of her husband's presidency, flip-flop on immigration to try and get more Hispanic votes, pander to the special interests groups, and way too many people in The States will eat it up. They'll love it. Meanwhile, her Republican foes will be doing... basically the same things. Then whoever wins will get in office, feed the military-industrial machine, start repaying all those companies they owe favors to (who can now donate as much as they want, thanks to yet more corrupt rulings from our government), and BS their way through. It's all a big joke. Democrats, Republicans, Royal Nonesuches... you don't make it to the top of a system as corrupt and warped as ours unless you, too, are corrupt and warped. You don't become a CEO of a modern clothing company if you pay heed to moral qualms about sweatshops in Bangladesh, for example.

I'm glad you're all enthused about democracy, but Obama ruined it for me. He got my hopes up and then stomped them back down. I can't say that I'll be waiting with bated breath for the next "leader," who no doubt will blame the opposing party for any and all of his/her failings too.

Edit Addition: by the way, I would have voted for Elizabeth Warren if she'd decided to run. I'm glad she didn't, though. She has integrity and a sense of honor, so she'd have no chance in hell of winning. It's better to save her money and time and do something else. A post-modern Caesar can't be burdened with a conscience.

I'm planning on voting for Bernie Sanders, and after the Clinton machine steamrolls him and what passes for "The Left" in this country decides to throw in with the Lesser Evil again I'll vote for whichever sacrificial lamb the Green Party throws out for President before driving home and pouring myself a stiff drink while imagining what could have been.

Now I'm going to exit this thread because political threads on the internet don't stay civil for too long. Thank you.

Oof. It's gotten way #cynical up in here.

They all work for their own interests. Thats to have wealthy people keep funding their political campaigns and become millionaires on the side.