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#51 Edited by DarthOrange (3861 posts) -

@darji said:

@darthorange said:

@darji said:

@darthorange said:

I agree with some of those things that lady says, do you have another 2 or 3 professionals that can back up her claims? She places a lot of blame on liberals and seems just as guilty of pushing her own agenda as the radical feminists she detests so much.

That is the problem. Of course everyone will push his/her own opinion. One who I really like is the Amazing Atheist. He maybe a bit direct and harsh but it is a lot of truth he is saying. Also he is going a lot about these terms of feminists or patriarchy. Just watch these 10 minutes for example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Nw3zyYpvs

Oh and if you want to see these radical feminists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2KPeMcYsuc&list=UUjNxszyFPasDdRoD9J6X-sw&index=8

...That man is not a professional, he is just a random man on youtube trying to sell T-Shirts and books with no credibility. At all. None. And he is an asshole. In this video he says that people who kill themselves after being bullied are pussies. He is the worst kind of human being.

Er ist ein schrecklicher Mensch. Bitte nie sehen diesen Mann wieder.

Ok first of all I never said he is a professional and honestly I did not even know him for is older videos. I stumbled across them through these feminist videos. And on this point I agree with him but that does not mean I will agree on everything he says. And yes the bullying stuff was stupid and I would never agree with that. However. Regarding the equality stuff I was watching I am agreeing with him.

So are their any other professionals in academia who agree with Professor Sommers or is she your only proof?

#52 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@darji said:

@darthorange said:

@darji said:

@darthorange said:

I agree with some of those things that lady says, do you have another 2 or 3 professionals that can back up her claims? She places a lot of blame on liberals and seems just as guilty of pushing her own agenda as the radical feminists she detests so much.

That is the problem. Of course everyone will push his/her own opinion. One who I really like is the Amazing Atheist. He maybe a bit direct and harsh but it is a lot of truth he is saying. Also he is going a lot about these terms of feminists or patriarchy. Just watch these 10 minutes for example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Nw3zyYpvs

Oh and if you want to see these radical feminists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2KPeMcYsuc&list=UUjNxszyFPasDdRoD9J6X-sw&index=8

...That man is not a professional, he is just a random man on youtube trying to sell T-Shirts and books with no credibility. At all. None. And he is an asshole. In this video he says that people who kill themselves after being bullied are pussies. He is the worst kind of human being.

Er ist ein schrecklicher Mensch. Bitte nie sehen diesen Mann wieder.

Ok first of all I never said he is a professional and honestly I did not even know him for is older videos. I stumbled across them through these feminist videos. And on this point I agree with him but that does not mean I will agree on everything he says. And yes the bullying stuff was stupid and I would never agree with that. However. Regarding the equality stuff I was watching I am agreeing with him.

So are their any other professionals in academia who agree with Professor Sommers or is she your only proof?

Again I do not know. Of course they are people supporting her ideology. If you look at Wikipedia for example (Yes I know it is not a good site for arguments) you can see some names there. So if you want to dip deeper into this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_feminist

#53 Posted by triple07 (1196 posts) -

Good lord this thread has escalated.

Anyway about the article, pretty good article but I didn't like the anecdote about the moving sidewalk. I suppose it is an apt comparison for people in the video games industry but doesn't seem to apply to me, the person who likes video games and sometimes posts on message boards about them. Also it kind of bothers me that he speaks mostly in broad terms about sexism in games. I mean do I care that people treat women poorly and would yell "rape that bitch" at a fighting game tournament? Yes, of course. Do I care that some games have scantily clad women? No, in fact I sometimes enjoy seeing scantily clad women in video games just like in real life.

So overall, while I agree with what he is saying I probably won't be reading any more articles on the subject for the next 6 months since I've gotten my fill.

#54 Edited by Sergio (2120 posts) -

@animasta said:

@darji: the amazing atheist also put a banana up his butt.

also he's human scum

so thanks for letting me know that debating you will be useless!

People who put things in their butt are bad people!!

(Actually, I have no opinion on this guy, since I didn't bother watching any of his videos, I just find it silly to point out he put something in his butt, as if that is supposed to tell me something about him or his character.)

@DarthOrange: I watched the video he linked. She mentions several feminists in her speech that share many of her opinions.

#55 Posted by YOU_DIED (703 posts) -

More static from journalists who still aren't providing specific examples of a woman being denied her rights because of her gender. Women in skimpy outfits in video games (or in real life if they are participating of their own accord) is NOT sexism or misogyny. Why are we not over this hump already?

#56 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3726 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@mrfluke said:

@darji said:

@darthorange said:

That Sony Santa Monica could learn a thing or two about sexism, with their offensive trophy names in games that are created by teams comprised entirely of men.

The trophy name was in no sense sexist or misogynistic. Try to think before putting out such bullshit^^

agreed especially when santa monica devs came out on twitter and said it was a female lead that named that trophy

(im not here to debate over this bullshit btw, just dropped in to say this piece above)

Sounds like "I'm not racist! I'll have you know I have a black friend!"

Not when the black friend is directly responsible for the inclusion of the content that is supposedly offensive to black people, which would be the appropriate analogy here. But for the record, I abhor the argument that you have to be a member of a minority or historically marginalized group for you to have a valid opinion about any issue that relates to that group.

I also think it's ridiculous for anyone to say that the God of War trophy IS sexist, as if it were a matter of objectivity rather than subjectivity. I can see someone being offended by it, but I can see people being offended by a lot of things in God of War. This is especially true when it comes to the character of Kratos, as he has always been a complete asshole to everyone throughout the history of the series. Should women be an exception? Should Kratos show women nothing but respect? Would that be true to the character? Are the sex scenes in GoW misogynistic? Should the game feature more female enemies for Kratos to brutally murder alongside the male enemies, or should there not be any female enemies at all? Which is more sexist?

Anyone care to give their opinion on these questions? Does anyone really feel that there is a singular objective truth that can be used to correctly answer these questions?

Anyhow, back to the topic of #1reasonwhy itself, I would like to promote this rather terrific blog post that Patrick was good enough to promote in his worth reading column a week or two ago:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JanetteGoering/20130329/189579/1ReasonWhy_We_Need_to_Change_the_Way_We_Fight_Aga-

Here's a quick preview:

Not everything that occurs is blatantly sexist. Some things totally are sexist and in poor taste; others only appear so in hindsight. Which should we be more upset over? Where do we start to fix things? How can we ensure equality in the workplace, and make the development community more inclusive?

I love the idea of #1ReasonWhy. I love the idea that we as an industry can get together, bring light to problems of sexism, and work together to eradicate these problems and bring equality to our industry.

I hate the turn it has taken over the last few weeks.

There are some good arguments, there. I'd definitely suggest checking it out.

#57 Posted by Clonedzero (4200 posts) -

Whats this huge sexism craze even about? The female developers being treated poorly? Well that sucks, i wish them the best dealing with that and it's a shame if they have to deal with it (i dont think its a huge deal though as ive seen many female developers say its not a big deal).

About female characters sometimes being sexualized? Well no shit, sex sells. Male characters are often sexualized and idealized too. Also, what the fuck is wrong with a sexy video game lady? Who is it hurting? If you don't like it don't buy those games. Porn isn't illegal or wrong, why are people making a fuss about sexy video game characters and not strip clubs? One is a fake person that doesn't exist and is only there for pure entertainment and hurts no one. The other is real women getting naked for the pleasure of other people.

"Princess Peach isn't a good role model for young girls cus she always needs a man to rescue him". ok sure. but when the FUCK was any video game character a role model? You think Marcus Fenix is a good role model? All he does is get angry and shoot things. Video games are about fun, not god damn role models.

What is this sexism shit even about? There are plenty of strong female characters in video games. More and more games are allowing you to play as a female. More females are in the development side of things than ever before. So what the fuck is the problem?

The only sexism complaint i can take seriously is any female developers being sexually harassed, and in that case they should be talking to HR and their lawyers not god damn twitter.

If people like having sexy female characters in games, then what is wrong with that? The TV channel the CW is basically nothing but ridiculously attractive people having melodrama at each other, apparently people love that. Good for them!

Also anyone whining about that stupid god of war achievement "bros before hoes" get the fuck over it. It's a joke/reference to the stupid meme/phrase. Stop being ultra-sensitive children.

This is why we can't have nice things.

#58 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@clonedzero said:

Whats this huge sexism craze even about? The female developers being treated poorly? Well that sucks, i wish them the best dealing with that and it's a shame if they have to deal with it (i dont think its a huge deal though as ive seen many female developers say its not a big deal).

About female characters sometimes being sexualized? Well no shit, sex sells. Male characters are often sexualized and idealized too. Also, what the fuck is wrong with a sexy video game lady? Who is it hurting? If you don't like it don't buy those games. Porn isn't illegal or wrong, why are people making a fuss about sexy video game characters and not strip clubs? One is a fake person that doesn't exist and is only there for pure entertainment and hurts no one. The other is real women getting naked for the pleasure of other people.

"Princess Peach isn't a good role model for young girls cus she always needs a man to rescue him". ok sure. but when the FUCK was any video game character a role model? You think Marcus Fenix is a good role model? All he does is get angry and shoot things. Video games are about fun, not god damn role models.

What is this sexism shit even about? There are plenty of strong female characters in video games. More and more games are allowing you to play as a female. More females are in the development side of things than ever before. So what the fuck is the problem?

The only sexism complaint i can take seriously is any female developers being sexually harassed, and in that case they should be talking to HR and their lawyers not god damn twitter.

If people like having sexy female characters in games, then what is wrong with that? The TV channel the CW is basically nothing but ridiculously attractive people having melodrama at each other, apparently people love that. Good for them!

Also anyone whining about that stupid god of war achievement "bros before hoes" get the fuck over it. It's a joke/reference to the stupid meme/phrase. Stop being ultra-sensitive children.

This is why we can't have nice things.

It is mostly called double standard. If men are objectified they are a male power fantasy. If you have female strong characters they are either man with boobs or because of men fantasies. If you let woman suffer and then become stronger it is torture porn. If you actually fight a female villain it is misogynistic because of violence against women. You can not really win here.

#59 Edited by Abendlaender (2803 posts) -

@milkman said:

Love the term "radical feminist." I just imagine a woman doing a kickflip while screaming "DON'T OBJECTIFY ME" with a ripping guitar solo in the background.

You know, I bet everybody would love feminists if they would do that.

#60 Edited by Winternet (8018 posts) -

So, more men talking about how they have to save the poor and defenseless women of the world? Gotcha.

#61 Edited by SpaceInsomniac (3726 posts) -

@abendlaender said:

@milkman said:

Love the term "radical feminist." I just imagine a woman doing a kickflip while screaming "DON'T OBJECTIFY ME" with a ripping guitar solo in the background.

You know, I bet everybody would love feminists if they would do that.

Sounds like Bikini Kill, or early Sleater-Kinney.

@darthorange said:

...That man is not a professional, he is just a random man on youtube trying to sell T-Shirts and books with no credibility. At all. None. And he is an asshole. In this video he says that people who kill themselves after being bullied are pussies. He is the worst kind of human being.

Someone said or did something completely unrelated to the topic at hand, which now makes any opinion that they might have invalid. This is a fallacy, perhaps minus the pre-emptive bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

But if you're looking for someone else who is a little more respectful, and quite a bit less belligerent, then I would suggest the following:

#62 Edited by DarthOrange (3861 posts) -

I disagree SpaceIsomniac. Calling him an asshole was an aside unrelated to the original point that he had no credability. His video is not invalid because he is an asshole, his video is invalid because he does not provide sound evidence.

#63 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@darthorange said:

I disagree SpaceIsomniac. Calling him an asshole was an aside unrelated to the original point that he had no credability. His video is not invalid because he is an asshole, his video is invalid because he does not provide sound evidence.

What is sound evidence for you? It is a fact that for example women get preferred in custody matters. It is a fact that women are getting special educational treatment and help. It is a fact that no one talks about domestic violence of men. Babara Key is also saying the same. Do you want to see links of studies they read and made in the video descriptions? Or maybe you should just look it up if you do not believe it. In Germany for example it is a law that Companies have to employ the woman if a man and a woman want the same job and have basically the same qualifications. Women do not live in an oppressed world anymore. At least not in our countries. IF you talk about countries like Uganda, China and so on. Yes and YES we should do something about that. But even thinking that women are oppressed in countries like America or Germany is just naive.

@spaceinsomniac

Great video.

#64 Posted by DarthOrange (3861 posts) -

Darji, you say it is a fact but if it so widely available information then why not provide the sources to prove it and make your argument stronger?

I could provide you examples of the glass ceiling women in the workforce face, and the way that they statistically earn less money [but I am on mobile and can't cite at the moment, I'll add them later :)]. Women are not oppressed in the western world, but they are not equal to (some)men. There are other variables at play. Like the fact that white women earn more then minority men, and minority men earn more then minority women. There IS a gender gap in the work force, to say otherwise is just naive, although it is smaller then the racial gap.

#65 Edited by kishinfoulux (2301 posts) -

Oh hey. Two things I don't give a fuck about. The stupid and pointless sexism debate in games and RPS.

#66 Edited by SpaceInsomniac (3726 posts) -

@darthorange said:

I disagree SpaceIsomniac. Calling him an asshole was an aside unrelated to the original point that he had no credability. His video is not invalid because he is an asshole, his video is invalid because he does not provide sound evidence.

Ignoring every single thing he said, the idea that a fairly sizable number of feminists cheered when a fire alarm was pulled to silence the free speech of another group is a pretty disturbing.

That's beside the point, but I didn't agree with everything that he said either, and certainly not the way he said it. If you want to discuss the topic more, I'd much rather talk about the #1reasonwhy response that I linked to in post 56. I've discussed my opinion of modern feminism itself more than enough over the last few months.

#67 Posted by Humanity (9210 posts) -

For every female in the industry that talks about how they were mistreated and victims of sexism I've heard at least one female say they've never experienced anything negative and always felt like "one of the guys." I'm not saying this to downplay anything unpleasant that happened to those who experienced actual sexism - but I also think there is a tendency to attach the sexism tag to behavior that is shitty but not actually sexist in nature. I've had female bosses that were downright nasty in the past but I don't think I'd ever associate any of their awful behavior to sexism. Of course at this point people will shout me down with "you're a male obviously you don't understand." As in one article a female wrote "I know you're all tired of reading about it, and I'm tired of living it." Well I am in fact tired of reading about it. I'm mostly tired of reading about completely trite and inconsequential issues that take center stage while important problems such as wages and job advancement are relegated to the back. Why isn't Elizabeth on the front of the cover? Why is Lara wearing fitted pants? Why is ? None of that has anything to do with the serious issues that some women face in the industry, yet that's all popular outlets like Rock Paper Shotgun and the like ever talk about. Also quoting Anita in any serious context is laughable when you look at her body of work which is a literal witch hunt for any sort of sexist remarks she can find in popular media. Any rational thought or sound reasoning she may have is instantly drowned out and made complete null by such daring commentary as finding sexist symbolism in Christmas Carols or how the pregnant female trope is a sexist tool often used in popular media.

#68 Posted by Nymphonomicon (97 posts) -

@darji said:

You can not really win here.

You basically summed up the entire thread in one line.

#69 Edited by mbr2 (566 posts) -

@clonedzero said:

Whats this huge sexism craze even about? The female developers being treated poorly? Well that sucks, i wish them the best dealing with that and it's a shame if they have to deal with it (i dont think its a huge deal though as ive seen many female developers say its not a big deal).

About female characters sometimes being sexualized? Well no shit, sex sells. Male characters are often sexualized and idealized too. Also, what the fuck is wrong with a sexy video game lady? Who is it hurting? If you don't like it don't buy those games. Porn isn't illegal or wrong, why are people making a fuss about sexy video game characters and not strip clubs? One is a fake person that doesn't exist and is only there for pure entertainment and hurts no one. The other is real women getting naked for the pleasure of other people.

"Princess Peach isn't a good role model for young girls cus she always needs a man to rescue him". ok sure. but when the FUCK was any video game character a role model? You think Marcus Fenix is a good role model? All he does is get angry and shoot things. Video games are about fun, not god damn role models.

What is this sexism shit even about? There are plenty of strong female characters in video games. More and more games are allowing you to play as a female. More females are in the development side of things than ever before. So what the fuck is the problem?

The only sexism complaint i can take seriously is any female developers being sexually harassed, and in that case they should be talking to HR and their lawyers not god damn twitter.

If people like having sexy female characters in games, then what is wrong with that? The TV channel the CW is basically nothing but ridiculously attractive people having melodrama at each other, apparently people love that. Good for them!

Also anyone whining about that stupid god of war achievement "bros before hoes" get the fuck over it. It's a joke/reference to the stupid meme/phrase. Stop being ultra-sensitive children.

This is why we can't have nice things.

I just want to thank you writing exactly what I think of all of this but couldn't put into words.

#70 Posted by AlexanderSheen (5004 posts) -

When the talk is about mistreating real women in life, like that fucking Machinima video or "The 40 Hottest Women in Tech" list, I'm all for. And Part One of the RPS article does that. But when we argue about whether some well stacked female character is sexist or not is just seems silly to me.

#71 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

Darji, you say it is a fact but if it so widely available information then why not provide the sources to prove it and make your argument stronger?

I could provide you examples of the glass ceiling women in the workforce face, and the way that they statistically earn less money [but I am on mobile and can't cite at the moment, I'll add them later :)]. Women are not oppressed in the western world, but they are not equal to (some)men. There are other variables at play. Like the fact that white women earn more then minority men, and minority men earn more then minority women. There IS a gender gap in the work force, to say otherwise is just naive, although it is smaller then the racial gap.

In the Video I posted first Christina Hoff Sommers is saying how these statistic are simply false because you just try to go with the average and without including many exceptions like average less work hours per year, for example. It is exactly these statistics that are misleading. I am not saying these do not exist but it is still not the norm. This matter is way more complicated then just look at the average salaries and many feminist studies actually do not include these problems. Also you will never reach a true equality anyway. There are sections where men have advateages and there are sections when in which women have advantages.

I really like the statement that the sexes are equal – but different

#72 Edited by TruthTellah (9000 posts) -

I liked most of RockPaperShotgun's response to this, and I'm glad they and others aren't just bowing to pressure to stop talking about it. We're at a messy point that seems healthy for the long term. Things will have to be a little messier before real change happens. Specific changes are pretty straight forward when addressed head on; hearts and minds are the hard part. And that takes time.

My only issue with this response was the Third Section about comments to dismiss. I believe it's a rather common sentiment, but it's still one of the biggest stumbling blocks for me. I think this way of thinking gives opponents a far more insidious tone than is the reality. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I have met very few people who have ever tried to purposefully use debate tactics to simply "win" an argument. "Winning" in this case is defined as derailing or silencing discussion. Maybe it's true, but it seems utterly alien to me. If most of the people bringing up common statements in these discussions are -purposefully- doing so to derail or silence discussion and not just because many people share similar sentiments, I would be greatly shocked. This line of thinking seems to come from some inherent disbelief that someone might genuinely not understand a compelling argument that you understand. Instead, opponents have to be calculating. They have to be intentionally doing some damage through common statements. To me, that sounds absurd, and I am a bit beside myself with how common this perception is.

People give others with opposing viewpoints far more credit than anyone deserves. Most people are -not- out to get you, and most people disagreeing with you are not just trying to derail or silence you out of some understanding that you're a real threat to some great power they are loyal to. People are people like you and me. They believe things, and since beliefs and opinions are part of their identities, they stand up for those beliefs and opinions when they feel they are challenged. If someone says, "I just wish we wouldn't talk about this," I reject the notion that they're somehow saying that because they think it's a great tactic to silence discussion. More-likely, someone is saying that because they feel uncomfortable or frustrated with the topic and genuinely wish we wouldn't talk about it. Unfortunately for them, I'd say, "Tough luck, we're still going to discuss it," but I at least understand that it's their discomfort talking, not some sly tactic.

One of the biggest mistakes propagated in arguments is one against those who try to insert some level of moderation and bring a conversation to a more civil place. This is just dismissed as a tone argument, or a tactic used to derail or silence discussion. While it's true that bringing up tone without addressing grievances can lead conversations to veer from the point, I think it is a good bit ridiculous to consider it as some kind of "tactic" intentionally done to hinder an argument. Are people really meeting individuals whose calm demeanor and preference for sensibility are just some kind of tactic to hold up arguments? There must be -some- people like that in the world for this thought to exist, but it shouldn't be tossed around as though that's some significant amount of people all plotting against what you're arguing. Do we really believe that most people put so much manipulative thought into what they say? Despite all of the knee-jerk and careless things we hear others say every day? Do we have to view opponents as though they're all mainly sociopaths plotting away their every move? If that's true, then I'm at a loss, because most people don't seem like that to me. This line of thinking just seems to make us see enemies in most anyone who is perceived as too different or unknown to us. And as long as we propagate this misguided notion that opponents are inherently plotting against us and always using some kind of tactics to thwart our efforts, we greatly limit our connection with the real people around us.

Are you all awful people? Even when you're nice or funny, is it just an act to gain more for yourself? People do have underlying motivations for their actions, but it is simply wrong to believe that most people consciously and purposefully work to undermine others when disagreements occur. Others are generally not out to get you. And while the RockPaperShotgun writer initially inspired what I am saying, this is about all of us. If we can't accept the reality of one another, we have no hope of having any of our compelling arguments hit. Someone might say, "Well, by pointing that out, you're just ignoring my compelling argument." Yeah. Because no matter how good or righteous an argument is, it simply won't work unless you're actually talking to another person, not just some plotting distortion you've come to believe in. You might as well be making a reasonable argument to a wall or potted plant. We are human beings. All of us. And the best way to talk to one another is not as calculating caricatures but as actual fellow human beings who are as they are.

Online
#73 Edited by EnduranceFun (1114 posts) -

Not really taking RPS seriously after their article on how Deep Silver was "ignoring" the press-created controversy surrounding the stupid torso, by selling their stock of torsos. Oh I guess they should have just buried all that merchandise in the desert. I'm grateful that they created a paste bin, though. They must have caught wind of people doing that on other sites.

#74 Edited by altairre (1189 posts) -

@mbr2 said:

@clonedzero said:

Whats this huge sexism craze even about? The female developers being treated poorly? Well that sucks, i wish them the best dealing with that and it's a shame if they have to deal with it (i dont think its a huge deal though as ive seen many female developers say its not a big deal).

About female characters sometimes being sexualized? Well no shit, sex sells. Male characters are often sexualized and idealized too. Also, what the fuck is wrong with a sexy video game lady? Who is it hurting? If you don't like it don't buy those games. Porn isn't illegal or wrong, why are people making a fuss about sexy video game characters and not strip clubs? One is a fake person that doesn't exist and is only there for pure entertainment and hurts no one. The other is real women getting naked for the pleasure of other people.

"Princess Peach isn't a good role model for young girls cus she always needs a man to rescue him". ok sure. but when the FUCK was any video game character a role model? You think Marcus Fenix is a good role model? All he does is get angry and shoot things. Video games are about fun, not god damn role models.

What is this sexism shit even about? There are plenty of strong female characters in video games. More and more games are allowing you to play as a female. More females are in the development side of things than ever before. So what the fuck is the problem?

The only sexism complaint i can take seriously is any female developers being sexually harassed, and in that case they should be talking to HR and their lawyers not god damn twitter.

If people like having sexy female characters in games, then what is wrong with that? The TV channel the CW is basically nothing but ridiculously attractive people having melodrama at each other, apparently people love that. Good for them!

Also anyone whining about that stupid god of war achievement "bros before hoes" get the fuck over it. It's a joke/reference to the stupid meme/phrase. Stop being ultra-sensitive children.

This is why we can't have nice things.

I just want to thank you writing exactly what I think of all of this but couldn't put into words.

I'll second that. Great post.

#75 Edited by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

I think this is a bullshit discussion among white males. I mean this FUCKING article is written by a male. John Walker sounds like a white blooded american male.

I can't tell if this is a joke or legitimate criticism.

#76 Edited by XenoNick (1408 posts) -

*Long drawn out sigh*

#77 Edited by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -

So, I want to keep this to the #1reason campaign and not feminism in gaming, or feminism in general. The one note I'll add is that 'radical feminism' is actually a term created by the eponymous radical feminists. Most often combined with either anarchistic or Marxist political philosophies, and largely about 'saving' women from men. These are the folk who publicly state that we should turn off the androgens in male babies to prevent them from developing male characteristics, or that we need to reduce the male population to 10% in order to make women safe. It's not mainstream feminism, because mainstream feminism doesn't actually read anything about feminism. It's the Call of Duty of social movements.

But to stay on #1reason, there were two problems I had with it, one purely functional and the other more philosophical. The functional one regards female devs going to twitter to make claims of sexual harassment. Functionally, what an intentionally useless exercise. Any company with more than a couple dozen employees is going to have an HR department, and in Canada at least, every province has an Employment Standards office that does not tolerate sexual harassment. Why choose to go to twitter and receive no resolution, rather than go to HR or a standards board and receive resolution? Is it because you don't believe the situation merits it, then why call it sexual harassment? Because you don't believe HR will believe you, why, it is literally their job and in America, HR employees are 89% women. Or perhaps you received resolution... but still feel the need to accuse all men as being complicit and corrupt. Ah well.

The philosophical issue is the few devs who posted things like "I'm in development for the young girls who need a role model!" or "To show my daughter that she's important". There was a poster a while back what said "Women in science! Because the future is too important to be left to men!" I constantly hear about the Western world being in a nonstop war against women and girls. And yet I have never seen a single male developer claim that his gender is the _number one reason why_ he is in games. Or that he's working in the industry in order to promote other men. Most of them if you asked would say either 'I love games', 'I want to support my family' or some crazy Hideo Kojima shit. Not "to promote men and be a role model for boys." If these are the brutal, patriarchal terrorists I keep getting told that all men are, they're a doing a _shitty job_ at fighting this war on women. They're practically not even taking the field. I'm constantly about how evil and terrible the 'boys club mentality' is. But no one appears to give any kind of a shit about a clearly defined girls club, who sees gender politics as the main reason to exist in the public sphere of work. Would anyone ever tolerate that from men?

So if you've actually read anything on gender issues, on either side, feminist or anti-feminist, you'd know that men have already declined past the majority stake in many important areas. Read Hanna Rosin's The End of Men to see a feminist cheering as men become a minority of the workforce, a minority of voters, and a minority of college graduates. 1 of 4 boys in the UK are 'unemployable' before even reaching age of majority, men have more health issues, die earlier, work more dangerous jobs, work more hours, are more unemployed, and are three times more likely to be the victims of violence... But this apparently a good thing. After all, men are 83% of the government, they must be calling the shots... Never mind that women are 57% of the voters, a voting bloc only surpassed by whites (72%). There is no #1reasonwhy for men. If you don't have a high paying job, you're an unmarriagable, worthless drain on society... If you do have a high paying job, you're just a priviledgdd extension of the patriarchy. How long, I wonder, before men just say fuck it all and give up? There's already a number of feminists upset with 'the state of men', never mind just celebrating the end of them. Men are less successful, less driven by work, and less interested in marriage than ever before... now what I hear is 'what happened to all the good men'? Maybe they all got tired of being called oppressive misogynists and decided to stay home and play Xbox.

Online
#78 Posted by XenoNick (1408 posts) -

@altairre said:

@mbr2 said:

@clonedzero said:

Whats this huge sexism craze even about? The female developers being treated poorly? Well that sucks, i wish them the best dealing with that and it's a shame if they have to deal with it (i dont think its a huge deal though as ive seen many female developers say its not a big deal).

About female characters sometimes being sexualized? Well no shit, sex sells. Male characters are often sexualized and idealized too. Also, what the fuck is wrong with a sexy video game lady? Who is it hurting? If you don't like it don't buy those games. Porn isn't illegal or wrong, why are people making a fuss about sexy video game characters and not strip clubs? One is a fake person that doesn't exist and is only there for pure entertainment and hurts no one. The other is real women getting naked for the pleasure of other people.

"Princess Peach isn't a good role model for young girls cus she always needs a man to rescue him". ok sure. but when the FUCK was any video game character a role model? You think Marcus Fenix is a good role model? All he does is get angry and shoot things. Video games are about fun, not god damn role models.

What is this sexism shit even about? There are plenty of strong female characters in video games. More and more games are allowing you to play as a female. More females are in the development side of things than ever before. So what the fuck is the problem?

The only sexism complaint i can take seriously is any female developers being sexually harassed, and in that case they should be talking to HR and their lawyers not god damn twitter.

If people like having sexy female characters in games, then what is wrong with that? The TV channel the CW is basically nothing but ridiculously attractive people having melodrama at each other, apparently people love that. Good for them!

Also anyone whining about that stupid god of war achievement "bros before hoes" get the fuck over it. It's a joke/reference to the stupid meme/phrase. Stop being ultra-sensitive children.

This is why we can't have nice things.

I just want to thank you writing exactly what I think of all of this but couldn't put into words.

I'll second that. Great post.

Just got to this bit. Fully agree. Thanks.

#79 Edited by budgietheii (161 posts) -

Thank fuck for the likes of RPS being willing to keep trying despite the arseholes trying to shout them down.

Having read through the usual bullshit defences on here about why it isn't an issue, even after having read the piece, I can't be bothered to be patient about it anymore.

#80 Posted by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -

^Ah yes. 'Shouting them down'. By daring to disagree publicly. Post-modern debate has ruined discourse when submitting a counter-argument is called 'silencing'.

Online
#81 Edited by twigger89 (278 posts) -

@darji said:

@jasonr86 said:

@darji said:

@darthorange said:

That Sony Santa Monica could learn a thing or two about sexism, with their offensive trophy names in games that are created by teams comprised entirely of men.

The trophy name was in no sense sexist or misogynistic. Try to think before putting out such bullshit^^

Don't be an asshole.

About the article, part of what makes this look so disingenuous is that this wasn't an issue until Anita Sarkeesian's kickstarter became such a big thing. Now everyone seems to talk about it and they all become big things (well, at least here and I'm sure elsewhere). From an outsider looking in it doesn't take much to think that the articles are being written with the intent to create traffic. That's always been my issue with all these articles anyway. I think the outward message is good though and I totally agree that we should all strive to reach equality for everyone of all races, genders, creeds, orientations, etc. etc. and if that means making a stink then so be it. Stink that shit up!

I am sorry but stuff likes this just makes me upset. The trophy name is really no issue it is an saying that you should care more about your friends than about some "one night stand" Or in this case Orccus decided for friendship to Kratos instead to bow to his mother's will. The whole thing got way to blown up with Sessler's misinformed video which he not even once apologized for.

And yes I agree we should strive for as much equality for everyone as much as possible but you can not archive that with using words like feminism or patriarchy. The moment you try to make one gender or race special you will never archive equality. And today's feminism is mostly not about equality anymore. It is about more and more privileges compared to men. For example women get special education possibilities and help that men do not get and because of that men are falling more and more behind in terms of education. I can even link you to a seminar hold by a "famous" feminists that actually says that they even fake statistics for their Textbooks they use at university to "train" and manipulate this new generation of feminists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgpbDpXrEr4

So feminists are evil masterminds trying to plot the take over of the world for women? You do realize how stupid and ridiculous that sounds right? I love how people think feminism is some conspiracy bullshit while woman still make considerably less money than men in most professions. If that was the only problem women have to deal with ( and it's definitely not) than feminism would still be important.

Online
#82 Edited by Bocam (3742 posts) -

I don't know why I keep coming into threads like these. People on both sides of the argument, don't seem to want to listen to each other.

#83 Edited by Jams (2960 posts) -

So, I want to keep this to the #1reason campaign and not feminism in gaming, or feminism in general. The one note I'll add is that 'radical feminism' is actually a term created by the eponymous radical feminists. Most often combined with either anarchistic or Marxist political philosophies, and largely about 'saving' women from men. These are the folk who publicly state that we should turn off the androgens in male babies to prevent them from developing male characteristics, or that we need to reduce the male population to 10% in order to make women safe. It's not mainstream feminism, because mainstream feminism doesn't actually read anything about feminism. It's the Call of Duty of social movements.

But to stay on #1reason, there were two problems I had with it, one purely functional and the other more philosophical. The functional one regards female devs going to twitter to make claims of sexual harassment. Functionally, what an intentionally useless exercise. Any company with more than a couple dozen employees is going to have an HR department, and in Canada at least, every province has an Employment Standards office that does not tolerate sexual harassment. Why choose to go to twitter and receive no resolution, rather than go to HR or a standards board and receive resolution? Is it because you don't believe the situation merits it, then why call it sexual harassment? Because you don't believe HR will believe you, why, it is literally their job and in America, HR employees are 89% women. Or perhaps you received resolution... but still feel the need to accuse all men as being complicit and corrupt. Ah well.

The philosophical issue is the few devs who posted things like "I'm in development for the young girls who need a role model!" or "To show my daughter that she's important". There was a poster a while back what said "Women in science! Because the future is too important to be left to men!" I constantly hear about the Western world being in a nonstop war against women and girls. And yet I have never seen a single male developer claim that his gender is the _number one reason why_ he is in games. Or that he's working in the industry in order to promote other men. Most of them if you asked would say either 'I love games', 'I want to support my family' or some crazy Hideo Kojima shit. Not "to promote men and be a role model for boys." If these are the brutal, patriarchal terrorists I keep getting told that all men are, they're a doing a _shitty job_ at fighting this war on women. They're practically not even taking the field. I'm constantly about how evil and terrible the 'boys club mentality' is. But no one appears to give any kind of a shit about a clearly defined girls club, who sees gender politics as the main reason to exist in the public sphere of work. Would anyone ever tolerate that from men?

So if you've actually read anything on gender issues, on either side, feminist or anti-feminist, you'd know that men have already declined past the majority stake in many important areas. Read Hanna Rosin's The End of Men to see a feminist cheering as men become a minority of the workforce, a minority of voters, and a minority of college graduates. 1 of 4 boys in the UK are 'unemployable' before even reaching age of majority, men have more health issues, die earlier, work more dangerous jobs, work more hours, are more unemployed, and are three times more likely to be the victims of violence... But this apparently a good thing. After all, men are 83% of the government, they must be calling the shots... Never mind that women are 57% of the voters, a voting bloc only surpassed by whites (72%). There is no #1reasonwhy for men. If you don't have a high paying job, you're an unmarriagable, worthless drain on society... If you do have a high paying job, you're just a priviledgdd extension of the patriarchy. How long, I wonder, before men just say fuck it all and give up? There's already a number of feminists upset with 'the state of men', never mind just celebrating the end of them. Men are less successful, less driven by work, and less interested in marriage than ever before... now what I hear is 'what happened to all the good men'? Maybe they all got tired of being called oppressive misogynists and decided to stay home and play Xbox.

Thanks for posting that. Glad I don't have to think up a post and I can just say I agree 100% with everything you said.

^Ah yes. 'Shouting them down'. By daring to disagree publicly. Post-modern debate has ruined discourse when submitting a counter-argument is called 'silencing'.

DOUBLE KILL

#84 Edited by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -

@twigger89

Let's operate under the assumption that, yes, women are paid 'considerably' less for the same work as men. They contribute the same amount of production, hours, they have the same seniority, duties and responsibilities, and yet they come at a 20% cost savings... Here's the problem with this construct; why on earth would any business ever hire a man, ever again? If you can get the exact same work out of a woman and pay her 'considerably' less, why would any HR manager hire a man instead of a woman?

I wonder how many years of women being the majority in employment before we stop hearing about the wage gap. Probably at the point when it's a 'positive' wage gap, and women make X% more than men. Might not happen without some new biological technology, the main reason why women tend to earn less is childbearing. Single childless and college educated women under 30 are actually earning 9% more than their male counterparts, which might not be that surprising since they are 60% of college graduates since the millennia.

This is not the first time I've brought these statistics up, but this seems to be the argument everyone wants to have. Personally I'd rather argue about either atheism or science or law or even video games, but hey. Let's just keep up the gender discussion forever.

Online
#85 Posted by Yadilie (380 posts) -
#86 Posted by AlexanderSheen (5004 posts) -

@bocam said:

I don't know why I keep coming into threads like these. People on both sides of the argument, don't seem to want to listen to each other.

Because you hate yourself and want to feel pain. Well, me too...

#87 Posted by JasonR86 (9697 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@mrfluke said:

@darji said:

@darthorange said:

That Sony Santa Monica could learn a thing or two about sexism, with their offensive trophy names in games that are created by teams comprised entirely of men.

The trophy name was in no sense sexist or misogynistic. Try to think before putting out such bullshit^^

agreed especially when santa monica devs came out on twitter and said it was a female lead that named that trophy

(im not here to debate over this bullshit btw, just dropped in to say this piece above)

Sounds like "I'm not racist! I'll have you know I have a black friend!"

Not when the black friend is directly responsible for the inclusion of the content that is supposedly offensive to black people, which would be the appropriate analogy here. But for the record, I abhor the argument that you have to be a member of a minority or historically marginalized group for you to have a valid opinion about any issue that relates to that group.

I also think it's ridiculous for anyone to say that the God of War trophy IS sexist, as if it were a matter of objectivity rather than subjectivity. I can see someone being offended by it, but I can see people being offended by a lot of things in God of War. This is especially true when it comes to the character of Kratos, as he has always been a complete asshole to everyone throughout the history of the series. Should women be an exception? Should Kratos show women nothing but respect? Would that be true to the character? Are the sex scenes in GoW misogynistic? Should the game feature more female enemies for Kratos to brutally murder alongside the male enemies, or should there not be any female enemies at all? Which is more sexist?

Anyone care to give their opinion on these questions? Does anyone really feel that there is a singular objective truth that can be used to correctly answer these questions?

Anyhow, back to the topic of #1reasonwhy itself, I would like to promote this rather terrific blog post that Patrick was good enough to promote in his worth reading column a week or two ago:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JanetteGoering/20130329/189579/1ReasonWhy_We_Need_to_Change_the_Way_We_Fight_Aga-

Here's a quick preview:

Not everything that occurs is blatantly sexist. Some things totally are sexist and in poor taste; others only appear so in hindsight. Which should we be more upset over? Where do we start to fix things? How can we ensure equality in the workplace, and make the development community more inclusive?

I love the idea of #1ReasonWhy. I love the idea that we as an industry can get together, bring light to problems of sexism, and work together to eradicate these problems and bring equality to our industry.

I hate the turn it has taken over the last few weeks.

There are some good arguments, there. I'd definitely suggest checking it out.

Dude, I was mostly making a joke. Though I think it fits like a fucking glove.

#88 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@darji said:

@jasonr86 said:

@darji said:

@darthorange said:

That Sony Santa Monica could learn a thing or two about sexism, with their offensive trophy names in games that are created by teams comprised entirely of men.

The trophy name was in no sense sexist or misogynistic. Try to think before putting out such bullshit^^

Don't be an asshole.

About the article, part of what makes this look so disingenuous is that this wasn't an issue until Anita Sarkeesian's kickstarter became such a big thing. Now everyone seems to talk about it and they all become big things (well, at least here and I'm sure elsewhere). From an outsider looking in it doesn't take much to think that the articles are being written with the intent to create traffic. That's always been my issue with all these articles anyway. I think the outward message is good though and I totally agree that we should all strive to reach equality for everyone of all races, genders, creeds, orientations, etc. etc. and if that means making a stink then so be it. Stink that shit up!

I am sorry but stuff likes this just makes me upset. The trophy name is really no issue it is an saying that you should care more about your friends than about some "one night stand" Or in this case Orccus decided for friendship to Kratos instead to bow to his mother's will. The whole thing got way to blown up with Sessler's misinformed video which he not even once apologized for.

And yes I agree we should strive for as much equality for everyone as much as possible but you can not archive that with using words like feminism or patriarchy. The moment you try to make one gender or race special you will never archive equality. And today's feminism is mostly not about equality anymore. It is about more and more privileges compared to men. For example women get special education possibilities and help that men do not get and because of that men are falling more and more behind in terms of education. I can even link you to a seminar hold by a "famous" feminists that actually says that they even fake statistics for their Textbooks they use at university to "train" and manipulate this new generation of feminists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgpbDpXrEr4

So feminists are evil masterminds trying to plot the take over of the world for women? You do realize how stupid and ridiculous that sounds right? I love how people think feminism is some conspiracy bullshit while woman still make considerably less money than men in most professions. If that was the only problem women have to deal with ( and it's definitely not) than feminism would still be important.

There are women and groups like that yes and these groups are giving the word feminism a very bad reputation or name. Personally I don't care about words like feminism or patriarchy. I believe that you can only archive equality or at least the most of it if you do not talk about female, male, black or white but if you talk about people and care about people who have these problems. So if we want to talk about violence we should talk about violence and not about violence against women. If we want to talk about discrimination we should talk about discrimination and not talk about discrimination against black people, or women, or disabled, or transgender or whatever. The moment you try to argue with words like feminism or how badly women are treated you have already lost in regards of equality.

#89 Posted by AlisterCat (5559 posts) -

The fact that the comments are closed is wrong. That's my only problem with it.

#90 Edited by twigger89 (278 posts) -

@twigger89

Let's operate under the assumption that, yes, women are paid 'considerably' less for the same work as men. They contribute the same amount of production, hours, they have the same seniority, duties and responsibilities, and yet they come at a 20% cost savings... Here's the problem with this construct; why on earth would any business ever hire a man, ever again? If you can get the exact same work out of a woman and pay her 'considerably' less, why would any HR manager hire a man instead of a woman?

I wonder how many years of women being the majority in employment before we stop hearing about the wage gap. Probably at the point when it's a 'positive' wage gap, and women make X% more than men. Might not happen without some new biological technology, the main reason why women tend to earn less is childbearing. Single childless and college educated women under 30 are actually earning 9% more than their male counterparts, which might not be that surprising since they are 60% of college graduates since the millennia.

This is not the first time I've brought these statistics up, but this seems to be the argument everyone wants to have. Personally I'd rather argue about either atheism or science or law or even video games, but hey. Let's just keep up the gender discussion forever.

I did a little googling and I can up with this report from the department of labor that seems to explain the pay gap. I'm still going through it, but at first glance it definitely seems like the pay gap itself, which does exist, has more reasonable reasons to exist than just institutionalized sexism. So I guess I'm at least a little wrong, that's not a fun sentence to write.

That being said, I still think there are important steps to be made in the field of equality, for women and for other groups. I get particularly annoyed when groups that history have always been the dominant member of society (like say the the Catholic Church) cries foul because they equate other people getting similar rights as they have as somehow and infringement on their rights, and male gamers have definitely played that card.

On another note, I'm all down for a debate on religion, science, and law, but I have a feeling we would have similar feelings on those subjects.

Online
#91 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@brodehouse said:

@twigger89

Let's operate under the assumption that, yes, women are paid 'considerably' less for the same work as men. They contribute the same amount of production, hours, they have the same seniority, duties and responsibilities, and yet they come at a 20% cost savings... Here's the problem with this construct; why on earth would any business ever hire a man, ever again? If you can get the exact same work out of a woman and pay her 'considerably' less, why would any HR manager hire a man instead of a woman?

I wonder how many years of women being the majority in employment before we stop hearing about the wage gap. Probably at the point when it's a 'positive' wage gap, and women make X% more than men. Might not happen without some new biological technology, the main reason why women tend to earn less is childbearing. Single childless and college educated women under 30 are actually earning 9% more than their male counterparts, which might not be that surprising since they are 60% of college graduates since the millennia.

This is not the first time I've brought these statistics up, but this seems to be the argument everyone wants to have. Personally I'd rather argue about either atheism or science or law or even video games, but hey. Let's just keep up the gender discussion forever.

I did a little googling and I can up with this report from the department of labor that seems to explain the pay gap. I'm still going through it, but at first glance it definitely seems like the pay gap itself, which does exist, has more reasonable reasons to exist than just institutionalized sexism. So I guess I'm at least a little wrong, that's not a fun sentence to write.

That being said, I still think there are important steps to be made in the field of equality, for women and for other groups. I get particularly annoyed when groups that history have always been the dominant member of society (like say the the Catholic Church) cries foul because they equate other people getting similar rights as they have as somehow and infringement on their rights, and male gamers have definitely played that card.

On another note, I'm all down for a debate on religion, science, and law, but I have a feeling we would have similar feelings on those subjects.

Women are not getting treated badly or not like men. In fact women are getting better treated. Lets use some very small and "stupid" examples for that just to make it very very easy to understand.

Some stuff teacher or parents say:

Never hit a women. Why? It should be never hit ANYONE

Be nice to women. Why? It should be be nice to ANYONE

Respect women. Why? I´t should be respect ANYONE

Other examples. Girls get way more help in education then boys do. the majority of college attendees are women. Child custody. Women privilege. Shelter for abused woman where are the ones for men? And yes they do exist and not even in a small number you just don't hear anything about it. Woman in first world countries are not pressed anymore they are privileged in many many aspects of live, culture and in the society.

And yes in certain areas men have privileges to but if they do they need to be taken away and that is just wrong. And that is why I support the phrase "Equal but different"

#92 Posted by twigger89 (278 posts) -

@darji: I don't think that kind of process would work. Let's look at it from a different perspective. Let's say you have 2 different kinds of cars, a SUV and a minivan. The SUV is having engine problems, and you think it might have to do with the production method (ie poor materials). The minivan is running smoothly no serious issues. In this scenario you would fix the SUV's problems, not pull back and approach with "let's fix all car problems." Though your goal may be to take care of all the issues, it is still more productive and rational to handle the issues individually so that you can come up with a solution that fits that particular problem, and then move on to the next one.

I also think it is naive to assume that society will just all of the sudden fix problems it was ok with just a second ago. Let's not forget it took the bloodiest war in American history for us to finally decide as a nation that slavery was illegal, and another hundred years for us to go from that to everyone having equal rights regardless of skin color. Each movement needs it own attention or it will get washed away by the multitude of people say 'It's fine, move along."

Online
#93 Edited by Hunter5024 (5668 posts) -

The article seems to be under the impression that all of their hard hitting journalism is about women affected by sexism in the game industry, which simply isn't the case for them or most other video game websites. So far they've been content to snidely point out the content of games themselves, which is not the problem. "Look at how big and prevalent this Sorceress' boobs are!" doesn't help the working conditions of females in the game industry, and the working conditions of females in the game industry is no excuse to criticize a games content. Games are an artistic expression and acting like sexuality is an inherently sexist thing is pointless, the only thing this could possibly accomplish is the stifling of creativity.

If game journalists want to post about a twitter group and feel like their making a difference, that's fine. At least that piece of news was actually about trying to expose the problems of working in the industry as a female. Even if some of the girls used it as an excuse to vent about stuff that had nothing to do with sexism *cough*. But the next time the gaming media causes a stupid fuss over a collector's edition statue, that's only available in limited quantities, in one region, for a game that almost no one cares about, then act like this is an example of fighting for change in the industry by reporting the news that matters, I'm going to call them on their shit. That news isn't relevant to anyone, and it benefits no one.

By all means the media should be willing to open up a dialogue, but they need to stop jumping at every single opportunity to do so, they need to be smarter about the kind of thing that is actually relevant to their cause, and they need to be willing to make it a dialogue instead of a soap box where they ignore relevant points they don't agree with.

#94 Edited by MonkeyKing1969 (2768 posts) -

No matter what side of this you fall into the best way to understand this issue (or any other) is to watch, listen, read, and think from reliable sources. Writing and talking serves little purpose for most of us because we don't know a much thing on the subject or even what is really being discussed. Yet, it is okay not to know, when you don't know that is the best time to pursue the subject by watching, listening, reading, and thinking to learn more about it.

My advice for most people: Listen more, while talking less. You can't talk intelligently on a subject without studying it. Your own experiences and views are somewhat worthless until they are connected with common terms and ideas with other people's experiences and views. The problems today is most people don't even know what is being talked about, and by most people, I'll include some of the pundits and experts too. It is likely over the next few years that sexim, gender roles, character sexulaity and numerious other subjects will mature to the point where more people understand what is REALLY being discussed in each case, but that will take time.

#95 Edited by matti00 (668 posts) -

I started reading this and then realised I would gain nothing from it.

If people want to think equal rights and social justice are bad things, then I don't know what to tell them. They're obviously broken in some way. I'm happy to let this conversation be driven by people who have a voice in this industry (John Walker, Patrick Klepek, et al.).

#96 Posted by Nekroskop (2786 posts) -

Tumbler, turbofeminists and RPS fans pack your shit and get outta here. You're ruining the community.

#97 Edited by budgietheii (161 posts) -

^Ah yes. 'Shouting them down'. By daring to disagree publicly. Post-modern debate has ruined discourse when submitting a counter-argument is called 'silencing'.

Trotting out the same idiotic bullshit, that has multiple times been intelligently rebutted in debate such as in the RPS piece (not all seven of them are iron clad but definitely worthwhile) and does not logically follow the original point, counts as drowning out proper discussion or 'shouting them down' in my book.

#98 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@darji: I don't think that kind of process would work. Let's look at it from a different perspective. Let's say you have 2 different kinds of cars, a SUV and a minivan. The SUV is having engine problems, and you think it might have to do with the production method (ie poor materials). The minivan is running smoothly no serious issues. In this scenario you would fix the SUV's problems, not pull back and approach with "let's fix all car problems." Though your goal may be to take care of all the issues, it is still more productive and rational to handle the issues individually so that you can come up with a solution that fits that particular problem, and then move on to the next one.

I also think it is naive to assume that society will just all of the sudden fix problems it was ok with just a second ago. Let's not forget it took the bloodiest war in American history for us to finally decide as a nation that slavery was illegal, and another hundred years for us to go from that to everyone having equal rights regardless of skin color. Each movement needs it own attention or it will get washed away by the multitude of people say 'It's fine, move along."

But we are not in these times anymore. Also in my scenario both cars would be defect And yes we should focus on fixing both and not only one. men's rights or stand in society is not running smoothly but it is more of a taboo in many aspects and the feminists are way to strong and yeah too intelligent for the most part. For example. If a men would say to someone he is getting bullied or was raped or other really nasty and cruel stuff. People would call him a pussy and that he should men up which is terrible in my opinion. That is why we should have shelters for men and women. Or Woman and child or Men and child. Why cant an institution not do both in one building? Why not share the pain and bad experiences? Why not try to show that not only women suffer form violence or abuse but also men do? Why not make it clear that both gender are suffering from stuff like discrimination? As I said it is not like women have still a huge disadvantage anymore. Same goes for black people for example. Do not treat them as black threat them as people. Let your children know that you should not be careful not to offend black people but rather try to teach them to respect everyone. Do not even talk about that this guy is black or not. Teach them that people are small or large or even have a different colur but are the same. And if someone has offended you try not to play the "because I am black" card but rather play the I was offended as a person. card.

#99 Posted by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -

@twigger89

The ability to admit a mistake is the rationalist's badge of honor. And I don't fault anyone believing the 72 cent myth because I did for twenty five years before I heard some arguments that rang false and decided to get informed. A year, maybe two years ago, I would've been on the feminist side on any argument, because I took what they said on its face rather than investigate each specific argument.

Talking about the Catholic Church and women, I'm not a Catholic so I don't really care either way, but I'd almost rather they continue with blatantly sexist standards and policies; it might lead to more women giving up the ghost and abandoning supernatural myths. It's strange that with how brutal, dogmatic and actually patriarchal most religions are, women actually make up the majority of their population, and atheism is predominantly male at this point. We talk about the abuses beset on women in the Middle East, and yet they hold fast to the very chains around their necks. That's incredibly frustrating.

As for comparing male gamers to, lets say, folk who are mad about gay marriage, I think the situations actually are different. I think most gamers are all for women (or anyone, really) getting games that they enjoy, that they respond to, that developers can make a buck off of. What upsets the majority of them is the idea that the games they enjoy have to change independent of their merits, or that good, respectful male gamers are all misogynist thugs, or various bad arguments that promote inequality under the guide of equality (as Darji appears to be upset with). With me, the two things are those little hypocrisies that we let pass every day ("Science is too important to be left to men!") and feminism's rather brutal and repressive revulsion of sex, sexuality, male sexuality, fringe sexuality, sex work, and a sexually liberated culture. If you changed the antisex feminist's use of 'men' to 'the Devil' you would have an identical pamphlet to Victorian era antisex moralists, who also mostly happened to be women.

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#100 Posted by Sergio (2120 posts) -

@matti00 said:

I started reading this and then realised I would gain nothing from it.

If people want to think equal rights and social justice are bad things, then I don't know what to tell them. They're obviously broken in some way. I'm happy to let this conversation be driven by people who have a voice in this industry (John Walker, Patrick Klepek, et al.).

Pretty sure a lot of people in this thread who disagree with some stories, not necessarily all, don't think equal rights or social justice are bad things. Saying so and using an ad hominem contributes nothing to the discussion, unless your goal is to not have a valid discussion on sexism, then fine.