#1051 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

#1052 Posted by Kidavenger (3509 posts) -

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

I think your number must be off a bit, that would be over 30 guns per person for ever single living person in the whole country.

#1053 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@Kidavenger said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

I think your number must be off a bit, that would be over 30 guns per person for ever single living person in the whole country.

Oops, I meant 650,000.

#1054 Posted by Sanity (1891 posts) -

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

Or instead of spending billions to take away guns they could make it harder to get them for criminals, teach kids how to shoot and teach proper safety so guns aren't some mystical thing to be feared or just something in video games. Guns are not the issue, people are.

#1055 Posted by CatsAkimbo (601 posts) -

@dudy80 said:

@CABBAGES said:

@dudy80 said: i have at least 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns but there kept separate and most importantly locked up. Safety and knowledge will always rule over ignorance and fear.

I must ask why would anyone ever need 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns ? I understand over there you are allowed to shoot people who walk into your garden or even just knock on your door ( like that scottish guy not too long ago who knocked someones door asking for help).

As much as i think there should be no guns or as little as possible i suppose if you told me you had one gun and a box of ammo i could kind of understand.

But the amount you say you have just makes no sense, If i were the police and i knew you had all that i would be very suspicious as to why.

@Bourbon_Warrior:

Because i like to shoot as a hobby, i load some of my ammo myself and a lot of my guns are guns from WW2 which are pieces of history. People dont just own guns for self defense you know, shooting is a great hobby and sport, but the anti-gun people wont tell you that.

Lax gun laws so it's easy for folks to shoot for hobby or sport versus stricter laws that would likely prevent at least a couple gun murders per year -- I wonder which one is more important.

#1056 Edited by Sanity (1891 posts) -

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CABBAGES said:

@dudy80 said: i have at least 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns but there kept separate and most importantly locked up. Safety and knowledge will always rule over ignorance and fear.

I must ask why would anyone ever need 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns ? I understand over there you are allowed to shoot people who walk into your garden or even just knock on your door ( like that scottish guy not too long ago who knocked someones door asking for help).

As much as i think there should be no guns or as little as possible i suppose if you told me you had one gun and a box of ammo i could kind of understand.

But the amount you say you have just makes no sense, If i were the police and i knew you had all that i would be very suspicious as to why.

@Bourbon_Warrior:

Because i like to shoot as a hobby, i load some of my ammo myself and a lot of my guns are guns from WW2 which are pieces of history. People dont just own guns for self defense you know, shooting is a great hobby and sport, but the anti-gun people wont tell you that.

Lax gun laws so it's easy for folks to shoot for hobby or sport versus stricter laws that would likely prevent at least a couple gun murders per year -- I wonder which one is more important.

Alcohol kills tons of people a year and its legal, so do cars, way more then guns do actually. Lets ban those too. People want to live in a bubblewraped world it seems.

#1057 Edited by RollingZeppelin (1914 posts) -

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@Kidavenger said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

I think your number must be off a bit, that would be over 30 guns per person for ever single living person in the whole country.

Oops, I meant 650,000.

Lol, I was like 650 million, holy shit Australia!

The question is, did this program have an effect on the murder rate?

#1058 Edited by Sanity (1891 posts) -

@RollingZeppelin said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@Kidavenger said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

I think your number must be off a bit, that would be over 30 guns per person for ever single living person in the whole country.

Oops, I meant 650,000.

Lol, I was like 650 million, holy shit Australia!

The question is, did this program have an effect on the murder rate?

Nope, atleast not from the actual ban. http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

#1059 Edited by CatsAkimbo (601 posts) -

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CABBAGES said:

@dudy80 said: i have at least 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns but there kept separate and most importantly locked up. Safety and knowledge will always rule over ignorance and fear.

I must ask why would anyone ever need 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns ? I understand over there you are allowed to shoot people who walk into your garden or even just knock on your door ( like that scottish guy not too long ago who knocked someones door asking for help).

As much as i think there should be no guns or as little as possible i suppose if you told me you had one gun and a box of ammo i could kind of understand.

But the amount you say you have just makes no sense, If i were the police and i knew you had all that i would be very suspicious as to why.

@Bourbon_Warrior:

Because i like to shoot as a hobby, i load some of my ammo myself and a lot of my guns are guns from WW2 which are pieces of history. People dont just own guns for self defense you know, shooting is a great hobby and sport, but the anti-gun people wont tell you that.

Lax gun laws so it's easy for folks to shoot for hobby or sport versus stricter laws that would likely prevent at least a couple gun murders per year -- I wonder which one is more important.

Alcohol kills tons of people a year and its legal, so do cars, way more then guns do actually. Lets ban those too. People want to live in a bubblewraped world it seems.

Cars are extremely useful for a number of economic and social reasons, and we all know and accept the risks when we get into a car. You can't say the same about guns, they're kinda only useful for hobby (who cares), hunting (still who cares, only a small % of people actually hunt and it's not vital), and killing people. I don't really care about alcohol either way, but at least we have police checkpoints to stop people from drinking and driving before they kill someone. There's not really an equivalent preventative measure to stop gun murders.

#1060 Posted by mrfizzy (1519 posts) -

@dudy80 said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

Or instead of spending billions to take away guns they could make it harder to get them for criminals, teach kids how to shoot and teach proper safety so guns aren't some mystical thing to be feared or just something in video games. Guns are not the issue, people are.

Yeah or they could do it the way that they did which has now resulted in a society that is 99% free of gun crime.

As an Australian I want to point out that if you really want a gun here you are still able to get one, you just have to jump through some hoops to get it and you are quite limited in what gun you are allowed to own. However a gun is a gun and if you really want one in your house on the off chance that someone breaks in and you feel the need to shoot them then you can do that (tho you are still going to get charged with murder for the shooting). Same as for hunting or sport, you can still do those things, there are just more regulations in place.

#1061 Edited by Sanity (1891 posts) -

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CABBAGES said:

@dudy80 said: i have at least 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns but there kept separate and most importantly locked up. Safety and knowledge will always rule over ignorance and fear.

I must ask why would anyone ever need 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns ? I understand over there you are allowed to shoot people who walk into your garden or even just knock on your door ( like that scottish guy not too long ago who knocked someones door asking for help).

As much as i think there should be no guns or as little as possible i suppose if you told me you had one gun and a box of ammo i could kind of understand.

But the amount you say you have just makes no sense, If i were the police and i knew you had all that i would be very suspicious as to why.

@Bourbon_Warrior:

Because i like to shoot as a hobby, i load some of my ammo myself and a lot of my guns are guns from WW2 which are pieces of history. People dont just own guns for self defense you know, shooting is a great hobby and sport, but the anti-gun people wont tell you that.

Lax gun laws so it's easy for folks to shoot for hobby or sport versus stricter laws that would likely prevent at least a couple gun murders per year -- I wonder which one is more important.

Alcohol kills tons of people a year and its legal, so do cars, way more then guns do actually. Lets ban those too. People want to live in a bubblewraped world it seems.

Cars are extremely useful for a number of economic and social reasons, and we all know and accept the risks when we get into a car. You can't say the same about guns, they're kinda only useful for hobby (who cares), hunting (still who cares, only a small % of people actually hunt and it's not vital), and killing people. I don't really care about alcohol either way.

The thing is gun bans dont actually prevent violent crime. Sure gun crime is down in the uk, but crime in general is actually up for the simple fact that criminals know they have no worries when robbing someone. Hell there have been people arrested in the uk for defending themselves simply because they had a weapon on them to defend themselves after using it on there assaulter.

#1062 Posted by Sanity (1891 posts) -

@mrfizzy said:

@dudy80 said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

Or instead of spending billions to take away guns they could make it harder to get them for criminals, teach kids how to shoot and teach proper safety so guns aren't some mystical thing to be feared or just something in video games. Guns are not the issue, people are.

Yeah or they could do it the way that they did which has now resulted in a society that is 99% free of gun crime.

As an Australian I want to point out that if you really want a gun here you are still able to get one, you just have to jump through some hoops to get it and you are quite limited in what gun you are allowed to own. However a gun is a gun and if you really want one in your house on the off chance that someone breaks in and you feel the need to shoot them then you can do that (tho you are still going to get charged with murder for the shooting). Same as for hunting or sport, you can still do those things, there are just more regulations in place.

Crime is worse in Australia after your gun ban. It didn't help anything.

#1063 Posted by Demoskinos (14562 posts) -
@CatsAkimbo Actually you are wrong. Hunting is VERY important to control wildlife population. Deer in particular can start to be a real nuisance if there starts to be an overpopulation. Hunters keep that in check.
#1064 Posted by CatsAkimbo (601 posts) -

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CABBAGES said:

@dudy80 said: i have at least 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns but there kept separate and most importantly locked up. Safety and knowledge will always rule over ignorance and fear.

I must ask why would anyone ever need 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns ? I understand over there you are allowed to shoot people who walk into your garden or even just knock on your door ( like that scottish guy not too long ago who knocked someones door asking for help).

As much as i think there should be no guns or as little as possible i suppose if you told me you had one gun and a box of ammo i could kind of understand.

But the amount you say you have just makes no sense, If i were the police and i knew you had all that i would be very suspicious as to why.

@Bourbon_Warrior:

Because i like to shoot as a hobby, i load some of my ammo myself and a lot of my guns are guns from WW2 which are pieces of history. People dont just own guns for self defense you know, shooting is a great hobby and sport, but the anti-gun people wont tell you that.

Lax gun laws so it's easy for folks to shoot for hobby or sport versus stricter laws that would likely prevent at least a couple gun murders per year -- I wonder which one is more important.

Alcohol kills tons of people a year and its legal, so do cars, way more then guns do actually. Lets ban those too. People want to live in a bubblewraped world it seems.

Cars are extremely useful for a number of economic and social reasons, and we all know and accept the risks when we get into a car. You can't say the same about guns, they're kinda only useful for hobby (who cares), hunting (still who cares, only a small % of people actually hunt and it's not vital), and killing people. I don't really care about alcohol either way.

The thing is gun bans dont actually prevent violent crime. Sure gun crime is down in the uk, but crime in general is actually up for the simple fact that criminals know they have no worries when robbing someone. Hell there have been people arrested in the uk for defending themselves simply because they had a weapon on them to defend themselves.

General statistics like that are hard to draw conclusions from, crime could be up because of the economy, it could be down because of improved schooling, etc. And I agree with folks saying a ban is stupid and impossible. I'd still like to make it harder for people to get guns, and illegal to have huge drum mags, silencers, whatever else that makes it easy to kill people. If you really care that much about shooting as a hobby, I would think you'd be willing to jump through a few hoops to get your gun and prove you're not crazy.

#1065 Posted by mrfizzy (1519 posts) -
#1066 Edited by Sanity (1891 posts) -

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CABBAGES said:

@dudy80 said: i have at least 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns but there kept separate and most importantly locked up. Safety and knowledge will always rule over ignorance and fear.

I must ask why would anyone ever need 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns ? I understand over there you are allowed to shoot people who walk into your garden or even just knock on your door ( like that scottish guy not too long ago who knocked someones door asking for help).

As much as i think there should be no guns or as little as possible i suppose if you told me you had one gun and a box of ammo i could kind of understand.

But the amount you say you have just makes no sense, If i were the police and i knew you had all that i would be very suspicious as to why.

@Bourbon_Warrior:

Because i like to shoot as a hobby, i load some of my ammo myself and a lot of my guns are guns from WW2 which are pieces of history. People dont just own guns for self defense you know, shooting is a great hobby and sport, but the anti-gun people wont tell you that.

Lax gun laws so it's easy for folks to shoot for hobby or sport versus stricter laws that would likely prevent at least a couple gun murders per year -- I wonder which one is more important.

Alcohol kills tons of people a year and its legal, so do cars, way more then guns do actually. Lets ban those too. People want to live in a bubblewraped world it seems.

Cars are extremely useful for a number of economic and social reasons, and we all know and accept the risks when we get into a car. You can't say the same about guns, they're kinda only useful for hobby (who cares), hunting (still who cares, only a small % of people actually hunt and it's not vital), and killing people. I don't really care about alcohol either way.

The thing is gun bans dont actually prevent violent crime. Sure gun crime is down in the uk, but crime in general is actually up for the simple fact that criminals know they have no worries when robbing someone. Hell there have been people arrested in the uk for defending themselves simply because they had a weapon on them to defend themselves.

General statistics like that are hard to draw conclusions from, crime could be up because of the economy, it could be down because of improved schooling, etc. And I agree with folks saying a ban is stupid and impossible. I'd still like to make it harder for people to get guns, and illegal to have huge drum mags, silencers, whatever else that makes it easy to kill people. If you really care that much about shooting as a hobby, I would think you'd be willing to jump through a few hoops to get your gun and prove you're not crazy.

I already have, all my guns were bought legally and i was checked by the FBI each time to make sure i wasn't a felon or had any warrants out. Im all for making it harder for criminals to get guns but what else could you do? Silencers are already pretty hard to get, most people dont have them. Drum mags i dont give a shit about, they can go. Most dont work that great anyways and are over priced.

#1067 Edited by RollingZeppelin (1914 posts) -

@dudy80 said:

@RollingZeppelin said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@Kidavenger said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

I think your number must be off a bit, that would be over 30 guns per person for ever single living person in the whole country.

Oops, I meant 650,000.

Lol, I was like 650 million, holy shit Australia!

The question is, did this program have an effect on the murder rate?

Nope, atleast not from the actual ban. http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

I did a little searching around since your source, being a website for a conservative think tank, is quite biased but I found a Time article on the issue so I'm inclined to believe you.

This does help to solidify the "gun control is ineffective" argument. I still say the only effective way to stop something like this from happening is to better understand the psyche of someone that would perpetrate a massacre and remove any incentive to do so. Before we can even do this we need better ways to characterize people prone to these mental states so we can identify them.

Secondly, we need to step away and look at the issue from an unemotional viewpoint and stop politicizing this issue. Clearly, every sane person wants these events to end, we should be working together to constructively solve the problem. The pointing of fingers and clinging to unsubstantiated claims is getting us nowhere. Meanwhile the problem is just getting worse every day.

#1068 Edited by YOU_DIED (702 posts) -

@RollingZeppelin said:

@dudy80 said:

@RollingZeppelin said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@Kidavenger said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

I think your number must be off a bit, that would be over 30 guns per person for ever single living person in the whole country.

Oops, I meant 650,000.

Lol, I was like 650 million, holy shit Australia!

The question is, did this program have an effect on the murder rate?

Nope, atleast not from the actual ban. http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

I did a little searching around since your source, being a website for a conservative think tank, is quite biased but I found a Time article on the issue so I'm inclined to believe you.

This does help to solidify the "gun control is ineffective" argument. I still say the only effective way to stop something like this from happening is to better understand the psyche of someone that would perpetrate a massacre and remove any incentive to do so. Before we can even do this we need better ways to characterize people prone to these mental states so we can identify them.

Secondly, we need to step away and look at the issue from an unemotional viewpoint and stop politicizing this issue. Clearly, every sane person wants these events to end, we should be working together to constructively solve the problem. The pointing of fingers and clinging to unsubstantiated claims is getting us nowhere. Meanwhile the problem is just getting worse every day.

Honestly, there are enough statistics and white papers out on the subject already. Here's a post I made on another site:

We're all aware of the horrific and devastating events that happened in Connecticut a few days ago. Since then, a number of generalizations have been flying around in the media regarding the amount of gun violence in the United States. This post may seem callous, but I think it's important to try to remain as objective as possible when considering such a serious undertaking as changing the laws that surround a big part of our culture and identity. So, instead of throwing my own emotionally-charged opinions into an already massive sea of them, here are some statistics on a semi-random cross section of developed countries from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime for 2010 [1]:

Mexico

Population: 112,336,538 [2]

Intentional homicides: 25,757

Rate (per 100,000): 22.7

Percentage: 0.02%

United States

Population: 308,745,538 [3]

Intentional homicides: 12,996

Rate (per 100,000): 4.2

Percentage: 0.004%

Canada

Population: 34,019,000 [4]

Intentional homicides: 554

Rate (per 100,000): 1.6

Percentage: 0.001%

Germany

Population: 81,776,900 [5]

Intentional homicides: 690

Rate (per 100,000): 0.8

Percentage: 0.0008%

Czech Republic (note: data is from 2009 as UN data for 2010 is unavailable)

Population: 10,487,200 [6]

Intentional homicides: 181

Rate (per 100,000): 1.7

Percentage: 0.001%

Russia

Population: 141,920,000 [7]

Intentional homicides: 14,574

Rate (per 100,000): 10.2

Percentage: 0.01%

[ ... ]

I'd highly recommend reading the following white paper, which is a very complete analysis of global and domestic statistics on this issue: 'Would banning firearms reduce murder and suicide? A review of international and some domestic evidence', found here: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf.

I think that understanding the culture and history of the countries that the data is derived from is something that can't be ignored, as we all know that the human element in the equation is the most important one. Here's one of my favorite scenes from my all-time favorite Coen brothers film 'No Country for Old Men', I think it illustrates the importance of the psychology of the person behind the gun rather well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-iQldPiH64.

Carla Jean Moss: You don't have to do this.

Anton Chigurh: [smiles] People always say the same thing.

Carla Jean Moss: What do they say?

Anton Chigurh: They say, "You don't have to do this."

Carla Jean Moss: You don't.

Anton Chigurh: Okay. [Chigurh flips a coin and covers it with his hand]

Anton Chigurh: This is the best I can do. Call it.

Carla Jean Moss: I knowed you was crazy when I saw you sitting there. I knowed exactly what was in store for me.

Anton Chigurh: Call it.

Carla Jean Moss: No. I ain't gonna call it.

Anton Chigurh: Call it.

Carla Jean Moss: The coin don't have no say. It's just you.

[1]: UNODC Homicide Statistics 2012 (http://data.un.org/Data.aspx?d=UNODC&f=tableCode%3A1)

[2]: National Institute of Statistics and Geography (INEGI) (https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z83fj27m8fa7gq_&met_y=population&idim=country:MX&dl=en&hl=en)

[3]: United States Census Bureau (http://2010.census.gov/news/releases/operations/cb10-cn93.html)

[4]: Statistics Canada (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/100628/dq100628a-eng.htm)

[5] World Bank (http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:DEU&dl=en&hl=en)

[6] World Bank (http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:CZE&dl=en&hl=en)

[7] World Bank (http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:RUS&dl=en&hl=en)

#1069 Posted by Sanity (1891 posts) -

@RollingZeppelin said:

@dudy80 said:

@RollingZeppelin said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@Kidavenger said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

I think your number must be off a bit, that would be over 30 guns per person for ever single living person in the whole country.

Oops, I meant 650,000.

Lol, I was like 650 million, holy shit Australia!

The question is, did this program have an effect on the murder rate?

Nope, atleast not from the actual ban. http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

I did a little searching around since your source, being a website for a conservative think tank, is quite biased but I found a Time article on the issue so I'm inclined to believe you.

This does help to solidify the "gun control is ineffective" argument. I still say the only effective way to stop something like this from happening is to better understand the psyche of someone that would perpetrate a massacre and remove any incentive to do so. Before we can even do this we need better ways to characterize people prone to these mental states so we can identify them.

Secondly, we need to step away and look at the issue from an unemotional viewpoint and stop politicizing this issue. Clearly, every sane person wants these events to end, we should be working together to constructively solve the problem. The pointing of fingers and clinging to unsubstantiated claims is getting us nowhere. Meanwhile the problem is just getting worse every day.

I agree, and thats what i hate the most about this, im not some crazy person just because i own some guns and like to shoot, and im not so dumb to think that the laws and restrictions couldn't change to better prevent these horrible tragedies from occurring. I just hate how it takes a mass killing to talk about it and obviously things get heated because of how bad this kind of thing is. We need to stop waiting until something bad happens to have these conversations.

Also there isn't some magical law thats going to stop every bad person from doing bad things and there are many people out there who probably shouldn't own guns but do. I have no real concrete ideas other then have a yearly police inspection to make sure everything properly stored. After all if the mothers guns were locked up better this may not of happened.

#1070 Posted by mrfizzy (1519 posts) -

@dudy80 said:

@mrfizzy said:

@dudy80 said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

Or instead of spending billions to take away guns they could make it harder to get them for criminals, teach kids how to shoot and teach proper safety so guns aren't some mystical thing to be feared or just something in video games. Guns are not the issue, people are.

Yeah or they could do it the way that they did which has now resulted in a society that is 99% free of gun crime.

As an Australian I want to point out that if you really want a gun here you are still able to get one, you just have to jump through some hoops to get it and you are quite limited in what gun you are allowed to own. However a gun is a gun and if you really want one in your house on the off chance that someone breaks in and you feel the need to shoot them then you can do that (tho you are still going to get charged with murder for the shooting). Same as for hunting or sport, you can still do those things, there are just more regulations in place.

Crime is worse in Australia after your gun ban. It didn't help anything.

I never said it was lower. I said that our society is 99% free of GUN crime. As in, we don't have nutcases committing mass murder a few times a year with a gun that they bought legally with little to no checks. We don't have people having a really shit day making the split second decision to grab a gun and blow their brains out (or someone elses) coz at that single moment in time it seems like the only way out. We don't have three year-olds finding guns laying around the house, thinking they are toys and then accidentally shooting themselves. All of this coz we have laws in place that acknowledged the fact that in the modern, civilised society that we live in, guns have little relevance and are generally not necessary. These laws also recognise that guns can be dangerous in a way that very few other objects in our society are.

Finally, as with so many other gun nuts, you failed to address the second part of my post. Our laws do not limit your freedom, if you want to hunt with a gun you can do so. If you want to shoot targets or clays with a gun you can do so (to the extent that for about three Olympics one of the best skeet shooters in the world was Australian). If you really feel the need to keep a gun in your home for whatever reason, you are able to do so.

I don't deny for a second that there are criminals out there in my society who are armed illegally. But the idea that the way to defeat those criminals is to be more well armed than they are is insane. Massive amounts of police statistics from across the world show that in a situation where a gun is pulled in self defense it will more than likely end up with someone being killed.

I know I am not going to change your mind with this rant but my god I am going to say what I am thinking coz as it is now, your country's laws are viewed by the outside world as terrifying and backwards.

Have a nice day.

#1071 Posted by HaltIamReptar (2029 posts) -

@dudy80 said:

@mrfizzy said:

@dudy80 said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

Or instead of spending billions to take away guns they could make it harder to get them for criminals, teach kids how to shoot and teach proper safety so guns aren't some mystical thing to be feared or just something in video games. Guns are not the issue, people are.

Yeah or they could do it the way that they did which has now resulted in a society that is 99% free of gun crime.

As an Australian I want to point out that if you really want a gun here you are still able to get one, you just have to jump through some hoops to get it and you are quite limited in what gun you are allowed to own. However a gun is a gun and if you really want one in your house on the off chance that someone breaks in and you feel the need to shoot them then you can do that (tho you are still going to get charged with murder for the shooting). Same as for hunting or sport, you can still do those things, there are just more regulations in place.

Crime is worse in Australia after your gun ban. It didn't help anything.

oversimplifying things gets my dick hard too

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

#1072 Posted by l4wd0g (1907 posts) -

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CABBAGES said:

@dudy80 said: i have at least 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns but there kept separate and most importantly locked up. Safety and knowledge will always rule over ignorance and fear.

I must ask why would anyone ever need 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns ? I understand over there you are allowed to shoot people who walk into your garden or even just knock on your door ( like that scottish guy not too long ago who knocked someones door asking for help).

As much as i think there should be no guns or as little as possible i suppose if you told me you had one gun and a box of ammo i could kind of understand.

But the amount you say you have just makes no sense, If i were the police and i knew you had all that i would be very suspicious as to why.

@Bourbon_Warrior:

Because i like to shoot as a hobby, i load some of my ammo myself and a lot of my guns are guns from WW2 which are pieces of history. People dont just own guns for self defense you know, shooting is a great hobby and sport, but the anti-gun people wont tell you that.

Lax gun laws so it's easy for folks to shoot for hobby or sport versus stricter laws that would likely prevent at least a couple gun murders per year -- I wonder which one is more important.

Alcohol kills tons of people a year and its legal, so do cars, way more then guns do actually. Lets ban those too. People want to live in a bubblewraped world it seems.

Cars are extremely useful for a number of economic and social reasons, and we all know and accept the risks when we get into a car. You can't say the same about guns, they're kinda only useful for hobby (who cares), hunting (still who cares, only a small % of people actually hunt and it's not vital), and killing people. I don't really care about alcohol either way.

The thing is gun bans dont actually prevent violent crime. Sure gun crime is down in the uk, but crime in general is actually up for the simple fact that criminals know they have no worries when robbing someone. Hell there have been people arrested in the uk for defending themselves simply because they had a weapon on them to defend themselves after using it on there assaulter.

You all need to learn about confirmation bias

Here is a video about gun control.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

#1073 Posted by Sanity (1891 posts) -

@l4wd0g:Of course people tend to gather information that supports there opinion, that still dont make said information wrong.

#1074 Posted by Apparatus_Unearth (3105 posts) -

@stryker1121 said:

@Apparatus_Unearth said:

@PeasantAbuse said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

@Apparatus_Unearth

@PeasantAbuse said:

@Apparatus_Unearth said:

@FiestaUnicorn said:

@Apparatus_Unearth said:

It's crazy that this guy basically had no reason. Columbine I at least understand, but this guy had no reason to unload on a bunch of innocent kids.

It's a little scary that you can "understand" Columbine.

I'm not supporting it or anything, I'm just saying the kids were bullied and took it out in an incredibly extreme fashion. However invalid the reason was, there was at least one.

I'm pretty sure nowadays the common theory is that they weren't really bullied but were more bullies themselves.

Well shit. You might have me there.

I've always heard that Dylan and Eric were bullied pretty regularly.

I'm pretty sure they talk about picking on "fags" and freshman in their journals, maybe they were bullied but they were not innocent kids driven to kill because of bullying.

Now I wanna look into this.

A guy named Dave Cullen wrote a well-acclaimed book about Columbine that debunks some of the rumors/myths surrounding the event. I have not read the book yet myself (I plan to soon), but from all i've read the book's very non-exploitative and delves into the reason why the killers did what they did. Here's a link:

http://www.amazon.com/Columbine-Dave-Cullen/dp/0446546925

My dad has that book, time to borrow it.

#1075 Posted by Sanity (1891 posts) -

Fact is we could argue this issue all day, but none of us have any real say over what will happen or how to solve it. I'v spent too much time reading this tonight already and we can all agree that whats happened is horrible. Gonna throw this song here as i think it fits my mood about it all. Think i might go play some TL2 now.

#1076 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@mrfizzy said:

@dudy80 said:

@mrfizzy said:

@dudy80 said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@IzzyGraze: They did the gun buyback program in Australia in 1996 when you could hand in guns legal or illegal for way more money than what they were worth. They got about 650,000,000 guns back though that program. Cost the government a lot of money and they destroyed all the guns.

Or instead of spending billions to take away guns they could make it harder to get them for criminals, teach kids how to shoot and teach proper safety so guns aren't some mystical thing to be feared or just something in video games. Guns are not the issue, people are.

Yeah or they could do it the way that they did which has now resulted in a society that is 99% free of gun crime.

As an Australian I want to point out that if you really want a gun here you are still able to get one, you just have to jump through some hoops to get it and you are quite limited in what gun you are allowed to own. However a gun is a gun and if you really want one in your house on the off chance that someone breaks in and you feel the need to shoot them then you can do that (tho you are still going to get charged with murder for the shooting). Same as for hunting or sport, you can still do those things, there are just more regulations in place.

Crime is worse in Australia after your gun ban. It didn't help anything.

I never said it was lower. I said that our society is 99% free of GUN crime. As in, we don't have nutcases committing mass murder a few times a year with a gun that they bought legally with little to no checks. We don't have people having a really shit day making the split second decision to grab a gun and blow their brains out (or someone elses) coz at that single moment in time it seems like the only way out. We don't have three year-olds finding guns laying around the house, thinking they are toys and then accidentally shooting themselves. All of this coz we have laws in place that acknowledged the fact that in the modern, civilised society that we live in, guns have little relevance and are generally not necessary. These laws also recognise that guns can be dangerous in a way that very few other objects in our society are.

Finally, as with so many other gun nuts, you failed to address the second part of my post. Our laws do not limit your freedom, if you want to hunt with a gun you can do so. If you want to shoot targets or clays with a gun you can do so (to the extent that for about three Olympics one of the best skeet shooters in the world was Australian). If you really feel the need to keep a gun in your home for whatever reason, you are able to do so.

I don't deny for a second that there are criminals out there in my society who are armed illegally. But the idea that the way to defeat those criminals is to be more well armed than they are is insane. Massive amounts of police statistics from across the world show that in a situation where a gun is pulled in self defense it will more than likely end up with someone being killed.

I know I am not going to change your mind with this rant but my god I am going to say what I am thinking coz as it is now, your country's laws are viewed by the outside world as terrifying and backwards.

Have a nice day.

Actually Gun Homicide rates have been on the decline since 1996 when they passed it and overall homicide rates have been on a steady decline since 2000.

#1077 Posted by IzzyGraze (850 posts) -

From the article I linked there was the stat that:

The overall level of gun crime in the UK is less than 0.5% of all crime recorded by the police

Anyone want to provide some guesses why that might be?

Also in that article I mentioned gun amnesties:

Look out for weapons amnesties, in which you can hand in an offensive weapon without risk of prosecution.

I believe this is not a buyback. I think it's just a place where you can hand in a gun and not be charged for having a gun or asked where it came from. This would be instead of giving the gun to the police because...

Whatever the reason you have an offensive weapon, police advice is to contact your local station to arrange to hand it in. But bear in mind you could still be charged with possession.

#1078 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -
#1079 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -
#1080 Posted by Draxyle (1791 posts) -

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

Really just makes me furious time and time again at how pure statistics and pure data go completely ignored because of an ingrained ideology enforced by corporate interests. You have to deny science in order to believe more guns are the solution under any circumstances; simply irrational no matter what way you spin it. Sure it would be hard to pull off what Australia did, but that's no excuse when the solutions are right in front of us and have been tested already.

And the videogames thing is just hilarious as usual. Heaven forbid one of these pundits look at some actual research regarding the matter.

#1081 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CABBAGES said:

@dudy80 said: i have at least 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns but there kept separate and most importantly locked up. Safety and knowledge will always rule over ignorance and fear.

I must ask why would anyone ever need 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns ? I understand over there you are allowed to shoot people who walk into your garden or even just knock on your door ( like that scottish guy not too long ago who knocked someones door asking for help).

As much as i think there should be no guns or as little as possible i suppose if you told me you had one gun and a box of ammo i could kind of understand.

But the amount you say you have just makes no sense, If i were the police and i knew you had all that i would be very suspicious as to why.

@Bourbon_Warrior:

Because i like to shoot as a hobby, i load some of my ammo myself and a lot of my guns are guns from WW2 which are pieces of history. People dont just own guns for self defense you know, shooting is a great hobby and sport, but the anti-gun people wont tell you that.

Lax gun laws so it's easy for folks to shoot for hobby or sport versus stricter laws that would likely prevent at least a couple gun murders per year -- I wonder which one is more important.

Alcohol kills tons of people a year and its legal, so do cars, way more then guns do actually. Lets ban those too. People want to live in a bubblewraped world it seems.

Cars are extremely useful for a number of economic and social reasons, and we all know and accept the risks when we get into a car. You can't say the same about guns, they're kinda only useful for hobby (who cares), hunting (still who cares, only a small % of people actually hunt and it's not vital), and killing people. I don't really care about alcohol either way.

The thing is gun bans dont actually prevent violent crime. Sure gun crime is down in the uk, but crime in general is actually up for the simple fact that criminals know they have no worries when robbing someone.

You are absolutely fucking nuts. If you think crime wouldn't go up if guns were readily available then you're beyond help, don't try and compare the UK with the US because we don't have multiple school shootings (or other massacres, Batman?) a year, you know why? Because you can't go on a massacre with a knife, you'll get overpowered, you can't go on a massacre with a machete, you'll get overpowered, you can't go on a massacre with a crowbar, you'll get... see where I am going with this? Point and shoot is easy, it requires little physical strength (skinny 17 year old with a knife can't take on more than one person) and you can do it from a distance.

get bent.

#1082 Edited by Kraznor (1578 posts) -

@Sooty: You do know over twenty people were killed with a knife in China the same day, right?

EDIT: It was immediately pointed out to me the case in China resulted in zero deaths. I only saw the initial reports and assumed the worst. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

#1083 Posted by Draxyle (1791 posts) -

@Kraznor said:

@Sooty: You do know over twenty people were killed with a knife in China the same day, right?

If you're talking about what happened on the same day as the Connecticut shootings, all of those children actually survived last I checked.

#1084 Posted by Kraznor (1578 posts) -

@Draxyle said:

@Kraznor said:

@Sooty: You do know over twenty people were killed with a knife in China the same day, right?

If you're talking about what happened on the same day as the Connecticut shootings, all of those children actually survived last I checked.

Oh weird, you're right, I just assumed the worst after the initial reports and never followed up. My bad.

#1085 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7050 posts) -
@Draxyle

@Kraznor said:

@Sooty: You do know over twenty people were killed with a knife in China the same day, right?

If you're talking about what happened on the same day as the Connecticut shootings, all of those children actually survived last I checked.

Yeah everyone is alive. Pretty grisly stuff (fingers lost for several people) but still in better shape than the poor kids in Connecticut.
#1086 Posted by FiestaUnicorn (1577 posts) -

@Sooty said:

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CABBAGES said:

@dudy80 said: i have at least 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns but there kept separate and most importantly locked up. Safety and knowledge will always rule over ignorance and fear.

I must ask why would anyone ever need 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns ? I understand over there you are allowed to shoot people who walk into your garden or even just knock on your door ( like that scottish guy not too long ago who knocked someones door asking for help).

As much as i think there should be no guns or as little as possible i suppose if you told me you had one gun and a box of ammo i could kind of understand.

But the amount you say you have just makes no sense, If i were the police and i knew you had all that i would be very suspicious as to why.

@Bourbon_Warrior:

Because i like to shoot as a hobby, i load some of my ammo myself and a lot of my guns are guns from WW2 which are pieces of history. People dont just own guns for self defense you know, shooting is a great hobby and sport, but the anti-gun people wont tell you that.

Lax gun laws so it's easy for folks to shoot for hobby or sport versus stricter laws that would likely prevent at least a couple gun murders per year -- I wonder which one is more important.

Alcohol kills tons of people a year and its legal, so do cars, way more then guns do actually. Lets ban those too. People want to live in a bubblewraped world it seems.

Cars are extremely useful for a number of economic and social reasons, and we all know and accept the risks when we get into a car. You can't say the same about guns, they're kinda only useful for hobby (who cares), hunting (still who cares, only a small % of people actually hunt and it's not vital), and killing people. I don't really care about alcohol either way.

The thing is gun bans dont actually prevent violent crime. Sure gun crime is down in the uk, but crime in general is actually up for the simple fact that criminals know they have no worries when robbing someone.

You are absolutely fucking nuts. If you think crime wouldn't go up if guns were readily available then you're beyond help, don't try and compare the UK with the US because we don't have multiple school shootings (or other massacres, Batman?) a year, you know why? Because you can't go on a massacre with a knife, you'll get overpowered, you can't go on a massacre with a machete, you'll get overpowered, you can't go on a massacre with a crowbar, you'll get... see where I am going with this? Point and shoot is easy, it requires little physical strength (skinny 17 year old with a knife can't take on more than one person) and you can do it from a distance.

get bent.

Also you can run away from a guy with a knife. Good luck trying to run from bullets.

#1087 Edited by Sanity (1891 posts) -

@Sooty said:

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CatsAkimbo said:

@dudy80 said:

@CABBAGES said:

@dudy80 said: i have at least 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns but there kept separate and most importantly locked up. Safety and knowledge will always rule over ignorance and fear.

I must ask why would anyone ever need 5 thousand rounds of ammo and over a dozen guns ? I understand over there you are allowed to shoot people who walk into your garden or even just knock on your door ( like that scottish guy not too long ago who knocked someones door asking for help).

As much as i think there should be no guns or as little as possible i suppose if you told me you had one gun and a box of ammo i could kind of understand.

But the amount you say you have just makes no sense, If i were the police and i knew you had all that i would be very suspicious as to why.

@Bourbon_Warrior:

Because i like to shoot as a hobby, i load some of my ammo myself and a lot of my guns are guns from WW2 which are pieces of history. People dont just own guns for self defense you know, shooting is a great hobby and sport, but the anti-gun people wont tell you that.

Lax gun laws so it's easy for folks to shoot for hobby or sport versus stricter laws that would likely prevent at least a couple gun murders per year -- I wonder which one is more important.

Alcohol kills tons of people a year and its legal, so do cars, way more then guns do actually. Lets ban those too. People want to live in a bubblewraped world it seems.

Cars are extremely useful for a number of economic and social reasons, and we all know and accept the risks when we get into a car. You can't say the same about guns, they're kinda only useful for hobby (who cares), hunting (still who cares, only a small % of people actually hunt and it's not vital), and killing people. I don't really care about alcohol either way.

The thing is gun bans dont actually prevent violent crime. Sure gun crime is down in the uk, but crime in general is actually up for the simple fact that criminals know they have no worries when robbing someone.

You are absolutely fucking nuts. If you think crime wouldn't go up if guns were readily available then you're beyond help, don't try and compare the UK with the US because we don't have multiple school shootings (or other massacres, Batman?) a year, you know why? Because you can't go on a massacre with a knife, you'll get overpowered, you can't go on a massacre with a machete, you'll get overpowered, you can't go on a massacre with a crowbar, you'll get... see where I am going with this? Point and shoot is easy, it requires little physical strength (skinny 17 year old with a knife can't take on more than one person) and you can do it from a distance.

get bent.

First, gun crime has dropped in the UK, never said it diden't, but your violent crime rates overall have gone up since the gun ban. Second, if you cant have a conversation without being a asshole then dont bother. As i said yesterday, no ones opinions are going to change on a internet fourm anyways and most of us are already set in what we believe. My reasons for owning guns aren't self protection or because i think the government is tyrannical, its because i like to shoot as a hobby and a good few of the guns me and my friends own have historical meaning. I dont even take my guns out of my cabinet or safe unless im going to plink or target shoot. Also knife crime has gotten so bad in the uk there talking about banning all knifes now, look it up if you want.

You guys can scream about how taking the guns away will solve everything all you want, but for the most part it will just screw people like me who are safe and law abiding citizens. You have to realize just how many illegal weapons are in the us already, sure its harder to get a gun off the street then from a store but not that much more of a hassel if your a criminal. Its nice to think there one big happy solution for everything but the real world dont work like that and these kinds of things are going to keep happening until we address the issues of mental health and how horrible a place our schools have become for kids.

Posted that after the Norway attacks and thought id throw it here again.

#1088 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@Kraznor said:

@Sooty: You do know over twenty people were killed with a knife in China the same day, right?

Actually none of them were killed, a little detail you left out, might want to check what your saying when you start with "You do know"...

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/17/the_chinese_lanza_had_a_knife_all_22_schoolkids_survived/

Obama looking to ban semi-auto and automatic guns, great news if it happens. NRA doesn't represent gun owners, they represent gun manufactures.

@dudy80: Our how about people just can't buy the ridiculous weapons you own, AK with 30 round magazines and over a 1000 rounds of ammo, I sure wouldn't want to live near you.

#1089 Posted by Sanity (1891 posts) -

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@Kraznor said:

@Sooty: You do know over twenty people were killed with a knife in China the same day, right?

Actually none of them were killed, a little detail you left out, might want to check what your saying when you start with "You do know"...

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/17/the_chinese_lanza_had_a_knife_all_22_schoolkids_survived/

Obama looking to ban semi-auto and automatic guns, great news if it happens. NRA doesn't represent gun owners, they represent gun manufactures.

@dudy80: Our how about people just can't buy the ridiculous weapons you own, AK with 30 round magazines and over a 1000 rounds of ammo, I sure wouldn't want to live near you.

Whatever, im done here. You guys obviously cant have a conversation without being assholes. Its good to disagree and talk but im not going to be insulted when you apparently know nothing about guns or gun safety.

#1090 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@dudy80: Just my preference of not living near some one with automatic weapons and 1000's of rounds of ammo, hope they take them off you soon.

#1091 Posted by Sanity (1891 posts) -

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@dudy80: Just my preference of not living near some one with automatic weapons and 1000's of rounds of ammo, hope they take them off you soon.

Haha, ignorance is bliss huh? There semi-automatic, no one owns full auto weapons here. And about the ammo... its not like you could carry a 1000 rounds on your person anyways so who gives a fuck?

#1092 Posted by CABBAGES (519 posts) -

This thread should probably get locked as it will never stop.

But i will say one last thing. The amount of guns and ease of getting them will increase the amount of murders and killing sprees no matter what.

That is not opinion that is fact.

#1093 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

@CABBAGES said:

This thread should probably get locked as it will never stop.

But i will say one last thing. The amount of guns and ease of getting them will increase the amount of murders and killing sprees no matter what.

That is not opinion that is fact.

Generic statement of the year.

This just in: bullets hurt people!

#1094 Posted by Mousse_gallon (173 posts) -

why is all the talk about rifles? did not this killer not use handguns?

#1096 Edited by Mousse_gallon (173 posts) -
#1097 Posted by John1912 (1829 posts) -
#1098 Posted by Mousse_gallon (173 posts) -
@John1912 said:

@Mousse_gallon said:

@John1912 said:

@Mousse_gallon: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/12/bushmaster_ar15_sandy_hook_adam_lanza.php

Ok that is interesting but sadly i will wait for some official word on which gun was used more/most.

"Two handguns and a rifle were recovered at the scene of the massacre, but reports have indicated that Lanza used the .223 semi-automatic rifle to shoot most, if not all, of his victims, including his mother"

do they site a source?  i did not see any.