Should the U.S. intervene in the Ukraine situation?

@ld50: It's alright.

Unless things go further than Crimea, I anticipate this will be ending with Russia having successfully taken part of Ukraine, and despite whatever that may gain the Kremlin, I imagine they will see more troubles in the future politically and economically because of this. I may not feel it is yet necessary for any kind of military action to resolve it, but I do hope that economic sanctions and political pressure can at least help this not just be the beginning of more such land grabs in the days to come.

This is a messy situation involving real people, and I can only hope that more violence and loss can be avoided. And perhaps, Ukrainians can return to focusing on the future of their nation without the threat of further war.

@monkeyking1969 said:

Really? The Domino Theory?

There should be no defense of this vote. It was called and done in 10 days. There was no open debate or discussion, and Russia had the area under Military control. The vote is a complete sham and the only country in the world that recognizes it as legitimate is Russia.

"135 international observers have arrived from 23 countries, including Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Latvia and Poland, Crimean authorities said. Among those monitoring the referendum are members of the EU and national European parliaments, international law experts and human rights activists."

Source

"Ethnic Russians make up 58.5% of the region's population, and many of them were expected to vote for joining Russia."

"One voter, Olga Koziko, told the BBC that she was voting for secession because she did not want to be governed by "those Nazis who came to power in Kiev".

"There are 1.5 million eligible voters and election officials put the turnout in Sunday's vote at more than 80%."

Source

I really don't see how this is a sham. How many days should they have had in advance? It would appear that many international observers do consider it legitimate. On the contrary, the E.U. and the U.S. are the only ones that think it's illegal. They are supporting people who are openly fascist though.

I can hardly imagine worse people for the RT to source. I'm actually a little taken aback, because even just a cursory look into them gives the clear picture that these are a who's who of people out to go along with whatever the Russian leadership wants. I'm serious; look up any of them.

Psikorkski is an odd politician who has suggested that Poland should stop being a puppet of the US and step in line with Russia instead(and apparently, according to him, Poland is behind the Ukrainian uprising, go figure). Ewald Stadler is a commonly-noted antisemite who has suggested that Austria was actually better off under Nazi control. Aymeric Chauprade is a conspiracy theorist who believes that the US is plotting to take over Europe and France should ally itself with Iran and Russia to fight them. Tatjana Ždanoka is literally someone who has argued that all of the former Soviet republics should still be part of a large communist Soviet Union. That's her official, proud position. The Serbian observer they cited, Zoran Radoychich, is a man criticized for denying the Holocaust and wanting to get rid of the Jews in Serbia. Srdja Trifkovic is credited as an inspiration for the murderer Anders Breivik, a prominent voice against Muslims in Europe, and a denier of the genocide of Bosnians during the Bosnian War.

RT is the only report giving these people any credibility at all. If these are the ones they found to consider as credible observers, I'm pretty sure this sends the exact opposite message about the vote. Who in their right mind thought citing them was a good idea? Being from another country doesn't suddenly make you a respected international observer. I genuinely find it kind of crazy, but I imagine their statements will go a long way with some folks.

The whole thing is messed up.

Two separate Ukraine threads now. What to do...

What do you mean? There is this poll thread that is actually active and another one that is one duder in Ukraine's personal plea for help. I don't think either overruns the other.

Though, if you had to choose, this one is a bit more active. The other only got brought back up today because of the Crimea referendum. If you leave them alone, I'm pretty sure this one will remain the main one about Ukraine for now while the other is strictly that Ukrainian duder's thread.

Oh I hear ya about RT. It's not really something I'm comfortable citing, but there is very little coverage of this elsewhere. I did find a BBC article and a Guardian article with basically the same information, though the RT article had more quotes from the observers.

I'm not able to find the same information you're using in your post. Is there anyway you can cite the sources? I'm not doubting you but I'd like to see the evidence for myself.

For example, this is all I can find on Aymeric Chauprade:

"He demonstrates his clearly marked sovereignist convictions: "The sovereignism is the nation, and the nation is the enemy of the empire. Of all the imperialisms, American, Islamist, internationalist".

Source

Which is from his Wiki, and there really doesn't seem to be much else to support him being a conspiracy theorist. There is absolutely nothing I can find on Zoran Radoychich. There is hardly anything on Piskorski. Most of the information on Ewald Stadler references YouTube videos which have been removed. Srdja Trifkovic does have some negative attention on his wiki, and he definitely appears to be anti-Islam. While I'm not religious, anyone that's anti-Jewish, anti-Islam, or anti-Christian, or extremist from any of those three category is questionable.

There seems to be 135 observers representing 23 countries. One would think there's an honest person in the bunch, but I haven't heard of any of these people before today. Thanks in advance.

This might be an interesting development:

Reuters) - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry agreed on Sunday to seek a solution to crisis in Ukraine by pushing for constitutional reforms there, the Russian foreign ministry said.

It did not go into details on the kind of reforms needed except to say they should come "in a generally acceptable form and while taking into the account the interests of all regions of Ukraine".

Source

Yeah, naturally, a lot is in other languages than English, but for these people, I honestly couldn't find anything actually positive about them. Some were praised for their comments against Islam, but then they also got criticism for antisemitism. Most of what I could find is what I listed. They certainly don't strike me as impartial or even reasonable observers. At least from who Russian media have identified as being there, the international observers allowed into Crimea appear to be people who have already voiced strong support for what Russia is doing or are just rather seedy folks.

I guess I can try to find some of the specific pages I found originally. ha. Let me see.

For Aymeric Chauprade, here is an article explaining his views on why France should align itself with Iran against the US: [Link] For Zoran Radoychich, I can't find the specific article now, but it mentioned that he was denied entry into Canada for antisemitic comments and denying that the Holocaust happened. For Piskorski, he mentions his beliefs that Poland is a US "trojan horse" to destroy the EU and Poland was behind the recent Ukrainian protests: [Link] For Ewald Stadler, here's an article talking about top German politicians condemning his comments about how Austria was better off under Nazi rule: [Link] For Srdja Trifkovic, as you noted, his wikipedia page already mentions quite a lot, including how he was barred from Canada for his testimony on behalf of a convicted war criminal denying the genocide in Bosnia. For Tatjana Ždanoka, everything about her, including her wikipedia page, explain how she is a rather large voice for how Latvia and other post-Soviet republics should still be part of a modern communist Soviet Union.

Just a really strange group for anyone to hinge their credibility on. I guess just saying there were "international observers" will appease some people, but I can't find any information yet about any reputable international observers. I know quality observers have been offering to oversee what's going on in Crimea, but it appears that few if any have been allowed in.

Maybe there is someone decent or reputable amongst the observers there, but I can't find any other names to look at. These are the ones being touted as presenting the real "truth" about what's going on. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't exactly put much faith in their assessment of any situation, let alone one as contentious as this.

Maybe Russian officials will mention more people in the days to come. These people being the big voices for them, though, really fits with this whole "international observers" angle appearing to be as much of a hollow show as the Kremlin continuing to deny that Russian soldiers are even deployed in Crimea. They're in the country taking Ukrainian bases and raising Russian flags. People are taking selfies with the soldiers for crying out loud. So much of this is just madness.

I do think there's still a significant chance for a peaceful cessation of this with just Crimea being taken. I imagine the Russian foreign ministry may be exaggerating a bit with what Secretary of State Kerry agreed on regarding constitutional reforms, but then, anything's possible. The EU, US, Ukraine, and Russia need to work together on a resolution, and if some agreement on Ukrainian reforms might at least bring Russia to the table with Ukraine, that could be a positive development.

Ukraine certainly does need plenty of reform, but I question whether any reforms Lavrov may be asking for are really in Ukrainians' best interests. We'll see though. Now that the Russian government is likely to pull in Crimea this week, things could either get far more contentious or deescalate back from the edge of further war.

I don't think we should ready our weapons or anything, especially when Russia hasn't fired any shots against Ukrainian civilians (unless I'm mistaken). I do think that the United States needs to distance themselves from Russia and that we should apply pressure on them economically.

You could say two years ago, "Well they won't go into Georgia or they won't go into Ukraine..." but that is what they did exactly. It not theory its on the ground fact.

@truthtellah: Thank you for the information. Having been raised on American "news" media, I've learned to take anything they say with the largest grain of salt conceivable by the human imagination. Researching any and all stories for one's self is really the only way separate the wheat from the chaff. Considering RT would use Srdja Trifkovic as an example pretty much shoots a hole in the article.

@dudeglove: As stated above, being raised on American "news", I've learned that it's not news and usually just PR for politicians and corporations. Given that RT is so overwhelmingly anti-American propaganda, there used to be a chance, be it microscopic, that they might have a sliver of truth to report. That seems to have vanished. Your post makes sense, though a little hostile, but I'm sure you have your reasons. You usually seem like a solid poster with good information in the past, and this post is a good example, so you probably have a good reason for your frustration.

I'm definitely not siding with Russia in this conflict. I'm not siding with the Ukrainian Government either. Given the evidence, I think the U.S. had a hand in this and I'm very tired of paying the price for their sneaky bullshit, meddling in everyone's affairs. My only dog in this fight is the American people, my countrymen. I can't stand to see us involved in another war that's not only unjustifiable, the rhetoric that supports it is so out of sync with the notions this country was founded on it's virtually unrecognizable as "American". The government trotting out politicians, whose loyalty to America is at best questionable, on media that is vulgar in their biasedness is past being frustrating to me.

I think many American agree, and hopefully the tide is changing in a way that won't support the obvious governmental corruption that has ruined our reputation globally and done a great disservice to it's people.

Thanks for your insight, I appreciate it.

@dudeglove: Don't get me started on John "Songbird" McCain. My thoughts on any elections in the U.S...

Cheers.

Sanctions in place, if Russia votes to accept the vote on Friday could be a huge mess.

@dudeglove: Oh no, I'm too versed in Russian humor to think that they're not self-aware. Indeed I'd say Russian humor makes it clear they're almost too aware of commonplace political brutality. They know authority can be arbitrary and hideous better than most. It's just normalized to a way greater extent.

I've enjoyed your other posts on RT and the general situation even if I don't respond, so keep it up.

As a statesian it is very morbidly hilarious to see the Glorious Peoples Republic of Reaganomics get all uppity over Russia doing something that we do pretty much decade over decade. It's as if the Federals just got super butthurt that someone is trying to take their schtick.

@crembaw: Or maybe some people actually care about it. But, sure, it's more fun to act like serious situations are jokes and just use them as another excuse to mock the US. This is something affecting real lives, including the lives of one of the duders in this very thread.

We may be able to joke around, but people in Ukraine and Russia are having to actually face this. It matters.

Well it's not just about the US, the sanctions Europe puts into place are the real threat. Though will either party put sanctions that directly affect their own economy? That seems unlikely, but if they think it can lead to Russia backing down at some point in the future where they can then lift said sanctions it may be a possibility.

Russian's military is a little too big for a revolt to really take hold.

@snakevsgiantbomb: Yeah, I can appreciate where you're coming from on this, snake, and I do hope it won't become a larger war in Ukraine. You shouldn't have to defend against this kind of attack, and you shouldn't have to put up with a crap government. Hopefully Russia will simmer down with this little victory and Ukrainians can get back to the business of reforming the government you have.

Woah, alright. I'm sorry, I guess I spoke a little too idly.

I was not actively trying to make light of his situation in Ukraine and I'm sorry that it came out that way. Nor did I intend to attack anyone in this thread's interest in the ongoings there. Speaking as someone who, practically, can do very little, it is frustrating to watch people like said duder have their lives affected by this and be unable to help, short of wiring him money. There's no policy apparatus I can push on to make things suddenly better, there's nothing I could put in a letter to Kerry or Obama or to the various EU commissions that would make things better, flying over there and doing something would probably be the worst thing I could do. The only thing I can speak to is my relative knowledge of my own country and how things look, currently, through that lens. But clearly that's inadequate for such a complicated situation. Reading and learning - in this thread even, about the history behind this situation, about how it is affecting people, is about all I can do, and then what? What do I do with that? I'm sure there's something, I just haven't found it.

Anyway, it doesn't matter how I got to that point, what matters is I was frustrated and said something dumb, and I'm sorry I did that.

To the duder in Kiev, I'm sorry if it seems like I made light of your situation. If there's anything any of us can do to help, just say so.

@crembaw: It's alright. Unfortunately, I've just seen so many kind of dumb, flippant comments that it got to me. I know we aren't always on the ball, especially in situations like this where we may feel so powerless. Thanks for the apology.

@snakevsgiantbomb Yeah, crazy how that kind of thing can change, right? Initial fears evolving into some kind of resolve. I hope you won't have to defend your nation. Hopefully that fear will fade as the bigger challenge of facing internal issues takes center stage again. Ukraine has plenty of hope if there are passionate guys like yourself wanting to make something more of the situation.