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#1 Posted by falserelic (5721 posts) -

Just curious to see how many gamers on here are actually parents. Male or Female how was your experience like raising a child?

#2 Posted by Rave (403 posts) -

Your topics are always crazy. I'm a father of a 3 year old daughter, it's amazing.

Before we had her I thought I would feel more like a parent or be changed in some way, but I feel exactly the same, it's so much guessing on how to raise them.

For someone I've only known for three years I can't imagine my life without her now. Hope that's a sappy enough answer for you!

#3 Posted by Leptok (982 posts) -

World's longest escort mission just about sums it up.

#4 Posted by Everyones_A_Critic (6496 posts) -

Take a walk through your local grocery store and I guarantee you'll never want to have a kid EVER.

#5 Posted by Sackmanjones (5141 posts) -

You always have the weirdest/craziest topics. Not saying that's bad or anything but I wanted to throw it out there. Anyway Im not a parent so I have nothing further to add. Peace!

#6 Posted by matthias2437 (992 posts) -

@Leptok: So it's completely horrible.

#7 Posted by Cyrus_Saren (551 posts) -

It's been amazing so far. Like anyone else, I was terrified when I first heard I was going to be a dad. Not something I felt I was prepared for or would ever be prepared for. There's a hectic couple months (especially since I'm going to college) and then it calms down and then it gets hectic again when their teeth start to come in but I really can't imagine my life without her now.

#8 Posted by falserelic (5721 posts) -

I can't imagine myself being a father. If I was ever to become a father. That probably would be exciting and scary. You'll have your own kid but then you have to be able to provide. I would have to get a good paying job, nice home and try to maintain a good relationship with the mother. I know if I ever have a kid I wouldn't want to be remembered as a bad father. I don't want to grow old and have my child hating me for the rest of there life.

I'll do my best to treat the kid right. Teach them stuff, take them out to fun places. When I die I want them to have good memories of me. Then I'll feel more at peace.

#9 Posted by SgtGrumbles (1024 posts) -

It's probably like not being a parent but with less money and free time.

#10 Posted by Leptok (982 posts) -

@matthias2437 said:

@Leptok: So it's completely horrible.

Its not that bad.

#11 Posted by Bocam (3962 posts) -

@Leptok said:

World's longest escort mission just about sums it up.

Wow, that's a pretty apt description

#12 Posted by FakeKisser (362 posts) -

My wife and I are considering having a kid in a year or two, and it's a bit overwhelming knowing that my free time will decrease (less gaming...), and it will restrict my ability to take big risks with a career change or move (i.e. no more thinking about internships or moving hundreds of miles away for a lowish paying job). But I've always wanted kids, and my friends with kids love it. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be psyched as well to raise another gamer. :D

Getting married shares a lot of those same things, so that's what I'm basing it off of. However, it's just the way of life. I personally couldn't live as a bachelor just to game more or for the sake of a career.

#13 Posted by Twisted_Scot (1193 posts) -

Never thought I wanted to be a dad but when my daughter came along just over 2 months ago it just seemed natural. Dont know if its because I was lucky with her or if I just placed too much trust in what people tell you about becoming a parent but I just feel the same as a person. So far there's good times and bad but it all feels worth it and wouldn't change a day. Except maybe the second day home where you have NO idea what your doing or whats going on with her as she screams, OK maybe that day.

#14 Posted by McGhee (6128 posts) -

My manager has two kids. One is 8 and the other is 2.

He looks like a tired and hunted animal most of the day.

#15 Posted by Shadowjester (100 posts) -

I am a father of 4. A 4 year old daughter, a 2.5 year old son and a set of 1 year old boy/girl twins. From my perspective they're a blast. My wife has to do a lot of work with them and it's not always easy. They get into everything and do things for no reason at all it seems but the first time you hear them say something along the lines of "I love you Daddy" your heart melts and you nearly go numb.

#16 Posted by jozzy (2053 posts) -

I have three kids, two boys and a girl, ages 8, 6 and 3. You will never love anything as much as your own kids, it's the most special bond you can have in my opinion. But it's also hard work, lots of extra responsibility and sometimes frustrating. Don't dismiss it as "It's probably like not being a parent but with less money and free time.". I was mostly surprised how much work a second child is, you might think it gets easier after the first but I personally think the difference between no kids and 1 is smaller than between 1 kids and 2.

#17 Posted by BraveToaster (12636 posts) -

Don't teach your kid to hit people with launch trays.

#18 Posted by falserelic (5721 posts) -

You guys sound like good dads. I'm sure your kids will turnout to be good people.

#19 Posted by BombcastGoldthwait (256 posts) -

To be honest my daughter is only 10 months old, so it's not that hard, most of the time it's instinct and repetition kind of stuff. I know that everything will change when shes a teenager, and I have to deal with hormones, boys, and other teenage crap. As far as from a gamer perspective, it kind of posed some problem getting in quality time with gaming, but I learned to play games I think I'm going to probably like instead of trying anything cause I'm bored. I also now stop playing a game if I don't like it, instead of pushing on and finishing it.

#20 Posted by FakeKisser (362 posts) -

For the parents, I'd love it if you could reply to these questions/topics:

1.) How much gaming time do you get in (hours per week is one way you could talk about this)? How does this compare to pre-children?

2.) Do you feel like you're not getting to play a lot of games you want to play? Does that bother you?

3.) Has gaming taken on a new role in your life from a "lifestyle" (playing every or most "good" games out there) to just something you get to do when you have the chance (small hobby)? Does it feel like you've given up something very valuable to you and like you're personally missing out (especially when being involved in a community like this where so many people are always talking about so many games to play)?

Since I'm thinking of having kids soon, any answers to these will really help me prepare. :)

#21 Posted by CaLe (4169 posts) -

I hope I never know. I'd imagine they steal all your time.

#22 Edited by falserelic (5721 posts) -

@CaLe said:

I hope I never know. I'd imagine they steal all your time.

I can see that happening. But in the end it might be worth it. I'm pretty sure its going to be a pain in the ass raising kids. At the sametime you might end up really enjoying every minute of it. Next thing you know you might end up being a grandfather.

#23 Posted by BonOrbitz (2398 posts) -

@Everyones_A_Critic said:

Take a walk through your local grocery store and I guarantee you'll never want to have a kid EVER.

So have you seen this?

#24 Posted by falserelic (5721 posts) -

@BonOrbitz: LOL!

#25 Posted by jozzy (2053 posts) -

@FakeKisser said:

For the parents, I'd love it if you could reply to these questions/topics:

1.) How much gaming time do you get in (hours per week is one way you could talk about this)? How does this compare to pre-children?

2.) Do you feel like you're not getting to play a lot of games you want to play? Does that bother you?

3.) Has gaming taken on a new role in your life from a "lifestyle" (playing every or most "good" games out there) to just something you get to do when you have the chance (small hobby)? Does it feel like you've given up something very valuable to you and like you're personally missing out (especially when being involved in a community like this where so many people are always talking about so many games to play)?

Since I'm thinking of having kids soon, any answers to these will really help me prepare. :)

I am probably the wrong person to ask, since I work from home and I don't have a ton of social responsibilities besides my little family (3 kids as said above) so I have quite a bit of free time. I still spend around 10-20 hours a week on playing games, and as much on reading about them on sites like this one. Most of that time is in the evening (after 8pm and as a break in my work during daytime). I definately feel like I have enough time to play, but I didn't back when I was working in an office and couldn't read gaming sites or play games a little during the day. I am not sure if I would call it a lifestyle, but it is definately still my passion and number one hobby.

Also, now my son and daughter are getting older i can actually play games with them, which is really cool.

#26 Edited by FakeKisser (362 posts) -

Thanks for that! I only get 15-20 hours right now since I work at an office and have other responsibilities...such as a wife... ;D

I am able to visit any site I want, listen to podcasts, and watch some vids at work, thankfully, so I at least don't miss out on that. Still, I really want to work from home just to have more flexibility, have zero commute, and not have to put up with cubicles and all the people. :P We'll see, though, I'm always on the look out, but it's very hard to find opportunities like that in the corporate space, it seems.

#27 Posted by Godlyawesomeguy (6419 posts) -

I have a relative that will have a baby soon and that relative is 17 years old, so for that person, having a baby will probably be horrible. Now, if you are a functioning adult with a stable income and you decide to have a baby because you can afford to do so and because you want one, then having a baby will probably be a lot easier, and in turn, a better experience.

I don't have kids, but for some it is horrible, and for others it is great. Perspective is key in the judgment of the quality of experience that is parenthood.

#28 Edited by falserelic (5721 posts) -

@FakeKisser: Hope things goe's well for you. Best of luck.

#29 Posted by excido (205 posts) -

I have a three and a half year old daughter, it's the greatest experience of my life. It gets better the older the kid gets in my opinion. At least for most fathers I know as opposed to mothers who love the baby days.

I have very little gaming time, I game mostly while I'm working, luckily my job is flexible, I work plenty of hours from home, more than I do from the office. I also have a Vita that I play on. I'm primarily a PC gamer though I do have a PS3 also, just don't get much gaming time in front of the tv. I probably get in 1-5 a week of gaming time. I'd get more if I stayed up later but I usually leave for work at 5:30 in the morning and I also go to the gym about 5 days a week which takes up a lot of the free time I do have. I'm definitely playing games a lot less than I did before the baby, of course being married to a non-gamer means that from the moment we got married I was gaming less than I otherwise did. She understands though and bought me my Vita for my birthday.

I definitely feel like I've given up something, but on the other hand I've gained a great deal more. While I miss sitting there with final fantasy, etc. for hours and hours and loving it. The moments I spend with my daughter are so much more than I could have imagined they ever would be before I had her. I'm also raising her up geek, she loves star wars and always wants to play games.

#30 Posted by takayamasama (485 posts) -

Now having a 21 day old daughter, the feeling is amazing. I still don't know what to expect, hell I think you never know, but as soon as she was born the wife and I felt like she belonged all our life.

It is amazing. Nothing less then.

#31 Posted by Everyones_A_Critic (6496 posts) -

@BonOrbitz said:

@Everyones_A_Critic said:

Take a walk through your local grocery store and I guarantee you'll never want to have a kid EVER.

So have you seen this?

Fuck yes I have, wish they'd run it here in the states.

#32 Posted by Tim_the_Corsair (3053 posts) -

My wife and I are both in fantastic, stable jobs, and have talked about having kids in the next few years. I think I want to wait until I'm in my 30s (so 2+ years) and she wants to be late twenties so we can still do some travelling and buy a flat first.

While the impact on gaming time and stuff is a bit of a concern (though, truthfully, I find myself gaming less and less recently), my biggest worry is that I really want to take a year to focus on writing full time and see if I can make a real go of making it my permanent career.

I think being a stay at home dad/writer would be pretty rad, but cash-wise that might be iffy unless I've got some published work that isnt solely paid on royalties.

In saying all that, I really do want kids, and I'm willing to sacrifice a lot to have them...not to mention practicing making them is an awful lot of fun.

#33 Posted by excido (205 posts) -

It's awesome when I'm working from home and things aren't too crazy and having my daughter sit on my lap talking about the random things that 3 year olds talk about. But at the same time some days are rough with work and it's a bit frustrating being home because you feel bad "ignoring' your kid while you're working. They don't understand the concept of "work". But that's just about working from home, nothing AGAINST having kids, I think it's the most amazing thing ever. When my daughter was born my wife decided to take time off from work and go back to nursing school for a second degree and career change. It sucked....LOL. she's finally done with nursing school 3 and a half years later but luckily I have a great job that covers everything. Can't wait to get her back to work though so we can also buy a house.

Have kids, you won't regret it.

#34 Posted by falserelic (5721 posts) -

@excido said:

It's awesome when I'm working from home and things aren't too crazy and having my daughter sit on my lap talking about the random things that 3 year olds talk about. But at the same time some days are rough with work and it's a bit frustrating being home because you feel bad "ignoring' your kid while you're working. They don't understand the concept of "work". But that's just about working from home, nothing AGAINST having kids, I think it's the most amazing thing ever. When my daughter was born my wife decided to take time off from work and go back to nursing school for a second degree and career change. It sucked....LOL. she's finally done with nursing school 3 and a half years later but luckily I have a great job that covers everything. Can't wait to get her back to work though so we can also buy a house.

Have kids, you won't regret it.

That's great man sounds like your an aswome dad.

#35 Posted by ptc (633 posts) -

It's very tiring, to be perfectly honest. But immensely rewarding at the same time. I have a 3 yr old son. I only game these days when he's sleeping (although he does like to play Dance Central and DFHAT occasionally). So the amount I game is determined by how much I want to sleep in a given week. It's hard for me to start new games that require a significant time investment, but the pick up and play stuff (Pinball Arcade or Pinball FX2, a quick round of Gears 3 multiplayer) is where I'm at these days.

#36 Posted by hawkinson76 (396 posts) -

As a player of video games, It was a lot easier when I had just 1 kid. The first game she got into was The Maw, which was great because you can't die. It took her a couple of weeks to get to the end, and she cried and cried when it ended. Awesome.

since my second child has gotten old enough to want to play, things have gotten much more complicated. 3.5 years apart, they just aren't on the same level, so they generally have to play completely different games, that makes things very complicated. my older child has a DS, and those games are just too complicated for the younger one. She can handle iOS stuff, but those have very little gameplay.

Its gotten easier since the younger one started to read, gives her a little more independence.

What has worked: The Maw, Toy Story 3 (toybox mode, they have no interest in the rest of the game), Burn Out paradise, basically any game where you can't die or time out. They also like watching me play Persona 3 and 4, and they like Giant Bomb (it is one as or more often than any other show).

What hasn't: most other "kids" games. They are just too hard! Drawn to Life, Up, etc. It has become clear that game reviewers have no idea what they are talking about when they suggest a game may be good for kids because they found it easy. Any game with pits that you can fall in and die are too hard for very young kids, period.

And to be clear, very young is 3-5. Additional challange is welcome as they get older, and by 9-11 they can play anything.

1) 2-8 hours per week, more if there is a compelling game. It all comes down to the weekends, weekdays are out. Its maybe 1/3rd of what it before kids (but as an adult). please note that I do not play any online multiplayer anything, this is all single player.

2) It definitely has an impact. Condemmed, Kane and Lynch 2, Liberty City Stories, Amnesia Dark Decent, are just a few of the games I own that I haven't played partially because I would have to wait until both the kids and my wife are asleep. Yes, I get that time, but because it is so inconsistent, I'm just as likely to continue playing something from earlier in the day, like Red Dead or Fall Out. That said, I played the shit out of Saints Row, which proves that time can be found.

3) Absolutely not, I'm still just as tapped in as before, and what with the internet and all I am in deeper than ever (Kotaku every 5 minutes, Bombcast every week, etc). While gaming took up more of my time before, it wasn't a bigger part of my life, I just had more uncommitted time. I haven't started watching TV or anything. Except for Playstation 3 and Wii exclusives (since I don't own those), I get around to playing everything eventually. Last year I played FallOut 3, which was a little late, but I had played Oblivion, so I figured I wasn't missing much (I was wrong). This year I may get to New Vagas, or maybe next. The games aren't going anywhere.

#37 Posted by TheHBK (5657 posts) -

Sex is now fear inducing because you think you will screw up again and have to relive the ordeal of pregnancy and late night feedings.

#38 Posted by StarvingGamer (8890 posts) -

One year in and it's the best thing I've ever done with my life. I've always wanted to be a parent and am fortunate enough to be in a situation where I get to be the primary caregiver. It can be a hassle sometimes like when she wakes me up at 5:30 AM and wants to play but so far it's all been worth it. It's not for everyone though, I have the advantage of incredible patience.

@FakeKisser said:

For the parents, I'd love it if you could reply to these questions/topics:

1.) How much gaming time do you get in (hours per week is one way you could talk about this)? How does this compare to pre-children?

2.) Do you feel like you're not getting to play a lot of games you want to play? Does that bother you?

3.) Has gaming taken on a new role in your life from a "lifestyle" (playing every or most "good" games out there) to just something you get to do when you have the chance (small hobby)? Does it feel like you've given up something very valuable to you and like you're personally missing out (especially when being involved in a community like this where so many people are always talking about so many games to play)?

Since I'm thinking of having kids soon, any answers to these will really help me prepare. :)

1) It depends. Early on they're sleeping all the time but you're also sleeping all the time because it's impossible to get a solid 7-8 hours. But even when they're awake they can't do much other than just lie there so you can get away with a decent amount of gaming. It only decreases though as they get older and more mobile. One-year in I tend to get about 3-5 hours of gaming in on an average weekday but I'm a gaming ninja. It's usually 2 when she's napping if there's no cleaning that needs to get done, 2 at night when she's asleep before I go to bed, and another hour from playing on my iPad while i'm taking her for a walk or running errands. The biggest difference is that I don't really have any free time on weekends because of my adjusted work schedule.

2) It's a relatively slow release season but I have a pretty significant backlog I built up from the last holiday season since my gaming time has gone down. But it's not that important that I play every single game ever so I'm ok with it. I just make sure I set aside the time to play the releases that are really important to me and figure out which ones I can probably skip.

3) Gaming is still my #1 hobby as it's what I dedicate almost all of my free time to. I can't do as much as I like and I miss out on a lot of gaming events, but luckily I have a few friends that do not work during the day so we can still play online together a few times a week. I'm actually waiting for LoL to finish updating so I can get a game in with one of my closest friends who is also a dad.

#39 Edited by enkind (2914 posts) -

@falserelic: Honestly, it's one of the best experiences of my life. I was a little scared of the responsibility, but once you really understand you are caring for your own flesh and blood, you make that a facet of your life that you enjoy. I love spending time with my little girl, who is only 10 months old right now, and the coolest thing is I get this sort of satisfaction for the rest of my life.

Also, I am a 23 year old Father or Piper JoAnne Campbell.

@FakeKisser: I generally don't game any less than I use to. Having a baby doesn't destroy your everyday life. I would say that I still get in 8-10 hours a day, but I am a stay-at-home Father. Also, you find out that you actually enjoy spending time with your little one. I use to think that it would put a cramp in my gaming life, but really there are times I avoid gaming just to spend some time with her little adorable self.

And to answer your third inquiry, no. You feel like your life has taking more meaning. I don't mean to sound like playing games is pointless, but when you have a child - you feel like there is just more to your everyday agenda and it makes you feel good. It makes you feel great to see them beam after you've played with them for a while, fed them, and then as they giggle while they watch your little character on the screen jump around.

#40 Posted by falserelic (5721 posts) -

You guys shared some good advice. I'll keep that in mind if I become a father one day.

#41 Posted by falserelic (5721 posts) -

@ck1nd said:

@falserelic: Honestly, it's one of the best experiences of my life. I was a little scared of the responsibility, but once you really understand you are caring for your own flesh and blood, you make that a facet of your life that you enjoy. I love spending time with my little girl, who is only 10 months old right now, and the coolest thing is I get this sort of satisfaction for the rest of my life.

Also, I am a 23 year old Father or Piper JoAnne Campbell.

That's good to hear your enjoying being a father. Hope things goes well for you and your family in the future. Best of luck to you man.

#42 Posted by Chojin (118 posts) -

My son is 7 and even though I have to admit that I more or less took a break from most hobbies the first 2 years after he was born, I probably play more now than before I had him to be honest. Both I and his mom are gamers, so he was basically born with a controller stuck to his forehead. We play lots of co-op games together such as the lego games, skylanders, super Mario etc. Lately we`ve been having an absolute blast with Minecraft on xbox. He also plays a lot of strategy games by himself, such as Starcraft 2 and the Dawn of War series (which got us into painting and gluing all these miniatures, and of course building bases out of cardboard boxes;p). Strategy is the one genre I don`t play myself, but it’s AMAZING to see him explore a genre by himself, with the same excitement and enthusiasm as I had as a kid, and to hear him explain and actually teach me.

When he goes to bed I play Battlefield 3, Dark Souls etc. All the games I want to play. I don’t miss out on anything because of him. On the contrary, I play LOTS of great games that I would have never played if it wasn’t for him. Even a bunch of shitty games that often becomes good because of him and me having fun together.

#43 Posted by falserelic (5721 posts) -

@Chojin said:

My son is 7 and even though I have to admit that I more or less took a break from most hobbies the first 2 years after he was born, I probably play more now than before I had him to be honest. Both I and his mom are gamers, so he was basically born with a controller stuck to his forehead. We play lots of co-op games together such as the lego games, skylanders, super Mario etc. Lately we`ve been having an absolute blast with Minecraft on xbox. He also plays a lot of strategy games by himself, such as Starcraft 2 and the Dawn of War series (which got us into painting and gluing all these miniatures, and of course building bases out of cardboard boxes;p). Strategy is the one genre I don`t play myself, but it’s AMAZING to see him explore a genre by himself, with the same excitement and enthusiasm as I had as a kid, and to hear him explain and actually teach me.

When he goes to bed I play Battlefield 3, Dark Souls etc. All the games I want to play. I don’t miss out on anything because of him. On the contrary, I play LOTS of great games that I would have never played if it wasn’t for him. Even a bunch of shitty games that often becomes good because of him and me having fun together.

Good to hear you like spending time with your kid. Fun stuff like that will definitely be memorable for him. He'll look up to you as a great father.

#44 Posted by MideonNViscera (2269 posts) -

@Leptok said:

World's longest escort mission just about sums it up.

haha Awesome.

#45 Posted by FakeKisser (362 posts) -

Great words! Thanks!

@Chojin: That is so awesome! Thanks for sharing!!

That makes complete sense and great to hear!

Thanks for that feedback! That really helps to hear. :D

I have to get better at being a gaming Ninja!!!

@Tim_the_Corsair said:

...my biggest worry is that I really want to take a year to focus on writing full time and see if I can make a real go of making it my permanent career. I think being a stay at home dad/writer would be pretty rad, but cash-wise that might be iffy unless I've got some published work that isnt solely paid on royalties....

That's actually been my goal as well. However, I'm currently 30, and I've realized that I personally can't wait forever to have kids when it's very possible I could be a professional writer even after I have kids. There are many, many examples of writers that started later in life, even ones that may have not been published writers without kids...as far as fiction goes, Tokien may be a great example....

#46 Posted by enkind (2914 posts) -

@FakeKisser: You'll have plenty of time to accomplish that sort of thing. I'll give you an example of myself - a stay-at-home Dad.

  • Wake up around 9-10 A.M. Change the baby's diaper and head to the kitchen.
  • Feed baby a jar of food, wait thirty minutes, feed bottle.
  • Play with baby (about 15 minutes, then they get pooped out) - Change diaper again.
  • Generally around 2-3 hours after she woke up, they want to nap for 1-2 hours.
  • When baby wakes up from nap, feed a jar of food and bottle again - commence play time.
  • At this time of day, the baby generally is awake until she's ready to go to bed around 9-10P.M.
  • Feed baby again after around 4 hour interval (if you have a schedule set up) and get her ready for bed. Changing diapers when needed.
  • Put baby down for sleep, and enjoy some time-alone!

It's really that simple. Other than the time you are feeding/playing with your baby, you are free to do your own thing. I may be lucky, but my little girl is an angel and rarely cries. After playing with her myself, I drag her play-pen up to my desk and leave her to her imagination. A lot of times I'll lean over and tickle her or play with her for a while - then get back to whatever I was doing before. Also, at around 7-months, giving her cheerios can really occupy them for a little while in case your doing chores or something important that requires concentration.

The one tip I have always given to new parents, or those looking into it, is that your baby will reflect the amount of effort you put into them. The happier and well-treated you give to them, they will return ten-fold. My baby is a bright little smiler because she knows Daddy (and Mommy, when she's home) will always be there for her. I don't leave her in the crib crying, or alone at any point if she is feeling clingy.

Sometimes I honestly think I should blog this. Maybe something like "Being a Gaming Daddy/Mommy."

#47 Edited by Dagbiker (7022 posts) -

@Rave said:

Your topics are always crazy. I'm a father of a 3 year old daughter, it's amazing. Before we had her I thought I would feel more like a parent or be changed in some way, but I feel exactly the same, it's so much guessing on how to raise them. For someone I've only known for three years I can't imagine my life without her now. Hope that's a sappy enough answer for you!

Yah, but at least they are interesting topics.

I am not a parent. But I have a dog, and even that was that was hard as a puppy, I could not imagine doing that again, with out a partner, with a human, that takes 18 years to grow.

#48 Posted by yakov456 (1955 posts) -

Interesting topic! For a man in his early 30's reading this I have to say its a bullseye on the many questions I have been pondering over.

#49 Posted by falserelic (5721 posts) -

@Flawed_System said:

I always assumed you were all snot nosed kids posting from a cave outside of Chernobyl.

It must have been a dark cave.....

#50 Posted by Flawed_System (386 posts) -

@falserelic said:

@Flawed_System said:

I always assumed you were all snot nosed kids posting from a cave outside of Chernobyl.

It must have been a dark cave.....

I always assume people are younger (on the internet) until I learn more about them.