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#1 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -

Its been on the new in the UK for a few days now about Obama's health care reform . Now coming from a country that has a national health service i cant see why people have strong views against this reformation ....
 
can somebdy explain ?

#2 Posted by Skytylz (4031 posts) -

Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it.

#3 Posted by Lestater (394 posts) -

Ahhhh!!!  Better dead than red!  <----- This is why we can't have nice things.

#4 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@Skytylz said:
" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "
Ahem....universal health care does not suck .
#5 Edited by Fbomb (1168 posts) -
@Skytylz said:

" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "

Oh really? 
 http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
We're ranked 7 spots higher than you by the World Health Organization, so I wouldn't make baseless generalizations based on whatever rhetoric you've heard other people spewing.
#6 Posted by Ryax (4630 posts) -

because our government is stupid. and they dont want to pay for us to live

#7 Posted by Xeiphyer (5597 posts) -
@Skytylz said:
" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "
The best way to do health care is a very socialist way so that everyone can get healthcare when they need it without waiting for months, or by having a mix of private and public healthcare. Thats the problem with Canada.. free health care is awesome, but when you need it.. you are often waiting a long time.
 
But at least you get it, and if its an emergency they are going to save you obviously. The problem with the USA is that you can pay for healthcare, and then when you need it, be denied. The fact that anyone would want to keep that is insane.
#8 Edited by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@Skytylz said:

" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "

Bullshit it sucks.  State funded healthcare is a responsibility for all Western governments, it's under the Geneva Convention under "the right to Life", yet America is the only country who doesn't follow that guiding principle and yet they invaded Iraq under the banner of promoting the United Nations' Geneva Convention "right to Liberty" clause. The Insurance system isn't the problem.  It's the overinflated cost of care in your country which allows the insurers to set such high premiums. 
 
The problem is that your Government hasn't locally lived up to the principles it promotes for other people across the world.  Obama is seeking to fix this and well he should because State Funded Healthcare is a right for any citizen in a democratic state.
#9 Posted by gunslingerNZ (1900 posts) -

Because it's seen as communist by the extremist right wingers in Washington. I also come from a country with a publicly funded health care system and it works out great!

#10 Edited by Clinkz (1118 posts) -

1. It will bankrupt the country even more so than it already is.
2. Its a blatant grab of power by the government over all health care options and also in this 2300 page monstrosity it tries to sneak in control of other things to such as education.
3. The quality of the check ups will diminish as this public takeover will run out many private doctors.

#11 Posted by Gunner612 (4338 posts) -

Because sadly inbred hicks from the backwoods have the same vote as a political scientist from a prestigious university.

#12 Posted by BrockSampson (296 posts) -

I think the biggest problem is every time it becomes even close to a possibility it ends up becoming nothing resembling "universal health care". And our country with rather spend billions on expanding our military then provide all of its citizens health care.

#13 Posted by JeffGoldblum (3702 posts) -

Because Fox News is biased and tricks most americans into thinking Universal Healthcare is evil.

#14 Posted by ez123 (1946 posts) -

Insurance companies have awesome lobbyists?

#15 Posted by Fbomb (1168 posts) -
@Xeiphyer said:
" @Skytylz said:
" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "
The best way to do health care is a very socialist way so that everyone can get healthcare when they need it without waiting for months, or by having a mix of private and public healthcare. Thats the problem with Canada.. free health care is awesome, but when you need it.. you are often waiting a long time.  But at least you get it, and if its an emergency they are going to save you obviously. The problem with the USA is that you can pay for healthcare, and then when you need it, be denied. The fact that anyone would want to keep that is insane. "
Actually, the line is based on need. If you're going to die without a transplant, you'll be bumped higher than a person who may need a transplant for a quality of life upgrade. Canada's system isn't perfect, but it's not as bad as people try to make it out to be. In a private system, the person who needs the transplant can only jump the waiting list if they can pay. If they can't, and aren't insured, they're going to die--or have their family owe hundreds of thousands of dollars from self-funding. Or both.
#16 Posted by iAmJohn (6110 posts) -
@Venom2112 said:
" @Fbomb said:
" @Skytylz said:

" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "

Oh really? 
 http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
We're ranked 7 spots higher than you by the World Health Organization, so I wouldn't make baseless generalizations based on whatever rhetoric you've heard other people spewing.
"
And Canada, which has Universal health care, is ranked 7 points over the US. So what's your point ?   I am happy that you are satisfied with your healthcare .. but don't go on public forums saying Canadian health care sucks, because it does not. Yes it does have some problems but you won't die due to lack of funds if you are unemployed or not covered by insurance at your work. Everyone in Canada has healthcare .. so I suggest you keep your rhetoric to yourself. "
You know you were just agreeing with him, right?
#17 Posted by Scrawnto (2435 posts) -
@Venom2112: You just repeated what Fbomb said.
#18 Edited by DuderBattalion (269 posts) -
@Xeiphyer said:

" @Skytylz said:

" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "
The best way to do health care is a very socialist way so that everyone can get healthcare when they need it without waiting for months, or by having a mix of private and public healthcare. Thats the problem with Canada.. free health care is awesome, but when you need it.. you are often waiting a long time.  But at least you get it, and if its an emergency they are going to save you obviously. The problem with the USA is that you can pay for healthcare, and then when you need it, be denied. The fact that anyone would want to keep that is insane. "
Exactly. Canadian healthcare is not perfect but hey .. atleast you have healthcare. I knew a friend of mine, his grandma was undergoing cancer treatment and she got the best hospital, nursing care, wheel chairs and transport .. all free of cost ! So @Skytylz .. Canadian health care is NOT poor. You won't die if you are unemployed or if your work doesn't insure you since everyone in Canada has health care.
#19 Posted by Clinkz (1118 posts) -
@JeffGoldblum said:
" Because Fox News is biased and tricks most americans into thinking Universal Healthcare is evil. "
Oh and MSNBC doesn't spew biased leftist nonsense?
#20 Posted by PeasantAbuse (5138 posts) -

It's only been in the news there for a few days?  You're lucky....
#21 Posted by HatKing (5838 posts) -
@turbomonkey138 said:
"Its been on the new in the UK for a few days now about Obama's health care reform . Now coming from a country that has a national health service i cant see why people have strong views against this reformation ....  can somebdy explain ?"

Because very clearly it just does not work.   Oh wait.
#22 Posted by chrissedoff (2075 posts) -
@turbomonkey138:  the vast majority of americans do want health care.
 
unfortunately, health care reform would adversely affect the profits of health insurance companies, who have a lot of money to throw around--and a lot of politicians willing to shill for them--in order to drag proposed reform through the mud and tar its proponents as anti-american communists. smears like that stick when they're repeated often enough. the fact that countries besides america have functioning health care systems doesn't help; many americans believe in a strange circular logic which dictates no other country can be better than america at anything. therefore, american health care is the best around. therefore, adopting practices from foreign countries can only taint the purity of american health care.
 
a large segment of the american population does not have adequate health care coverage. but, the majority of americans do have decent coverage which they receive either from their employer or from government-assisted coverage like medicare for seniors. this can contribute to ignorance of the trouble un-covered people go through, and even a callous "fuck you, i got mine" attitude. americans hate the idea of someone receiving a "free ride" on their tax dollars. and for some people, mainly the fox news-watching crowd, a big part of being against health care reform is going to benefit minorities, who they don't see as being "real" americans.
#23 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@Clinkz said:
" @JeffGoldblum said:
" Because Fox News is biased and tricks most americans into thinking Universal Healthcare is evil. "
Oh and MSNBC doesn't spew biased leftist nonsense? "
I think i prefer the leftist nonsense than fox new mate ......republicans seem to emobdy every thing i hate about our world..
#24 Posted by JeffGoldblum (3702 posts) -
@Clinkz said:
" @JeffGoldblum said:
" Because Fox News is biased and tricks most americans into thinking Universal Healthcare is evil. "
Oh and MSNBC doesn't spew biased leftist nonsense? "
All News stations are biased. 
I hate them all.
#25 Posted by DuderBattalion (269 posts) -
@iAmJohn said:
" @Venom2112 said:
" @Fbomb said:
" @Skytylz said:

" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "

Oh really? 
 http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
We're ranked 7 spots higher than you by the World Health Organization, so I wouldn't make baseless generalizations based on whatever rhetoric you've heard other people spewing.
"
And Canada, which has Universal health care, is ranked 7 points over the US. So what's your point ?   I am happy that you are satisfied with your healthcare .. but don't go on public forums saying Canadian health care sucks, because it does not. Yes it does have some problems but you won't die due to lack of funds if you are unemployed or not covered by insurance at your work. Everyone in Canada has healthcare .. so I suggest you keep your rhetoric to yourself. "
You know you were just agreeing with him, right? "
Yeah .. I kinda fucked that up :P I thought it was Skytylz saying something about the US being over the UK by 7 pts. Deleted that comment .. but sadly the internet caught my mistake. Damn you guys are fast !!
#26 Edited by Fbomb (1168 posts) -
@turbomonkey138 said:

" @Clinkz said:

" @JeffGoldblum said:
" Because Fox News is biased and tricks most americans into thinking Universal Healthcare is evil. "
Oh and MSNBC doesn't spew biased leftist nonsense? "
I think i prefer the leftist nonsense than fox new mate ......republicans seem to emobdy every thing i hate about our world.. "
I think extremist views on either side don't help anything. Both sides are needed for a balanced view, but making up evidence and making absolutist/generalist claims hurt more than provide a proper platform for any sort of cogent argument, and both MSNBC and Fox News are guilty of these far too often.
#27 Posted by gla55jAw (2686 posts) -
@chrissedoff said:
" @turbomonkey138:  the vast majority of americans do want health care.  unfortunately, health care reform would adversely affect the profits of health insurance companies, who have a lot of money to throw around--and a lot of politicians willing to shill for them--in order to drag proposed reform through the mud and tar its proponents as anti-american communists. smears like that stick when they're repeated often enough. the fact that countries besides america have functioning health care systems doesn't help; many americans believe in a strange circular logic which dictates no other country can be better than america at anything. therefore, american health care is the best around. therefore, adopting practices from foreign countries can only taint the purity of american health care.  a large segment of the american population does not have adequate health care coverage. but, the majority of americans do have decent coverage which they receive either from their employer or from government-assisted coverage like medicare for seniors. this can contribute to ignorance of the trouble un-covered people go through, and even a callous "fuck you, i got mine" attitude. americans hate the idea of someone receiving a "free ride" on their tax dollars. and for some people, mainly the fox news-watching crowd, a big part of being against health care reform is going to benefit minorities, who they don't see as being "real" americans. "
I think you just lost all credibility when you basically called all Republicans racists.
#28 Posted by iAmJohn (6110 posts) -
@Clinkz said:
" @JeffGoldblum said:
" Because Fox News is biased and tricks most americans into thinking Universal Healthcare is evil. "
Oh and MSNBC doesn't spew biased leftist nonsense? "
"Reality has a liberal bias."
#29 Posted by Kyreo (4600 posts) -
@Ryax said:
" because our government is stupid. and they dont want to pay for us to live "
This.  Well said Ryax!
#30 Edited by Fbomb (1168 posts) -
@Venom2112 said:

" @iAmJohn said:

" @Venom2112 said:
" @Fbomb said:
" @Skytylz said:

" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "

Oh really? 
 http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
We're ranked 7 spots higher than you by the World Health Organization, so I wouldn't make baseless generalizations based on whatever rhetoric you've heard other people spewing.
"
And Canada, which has Universal health care, is ranked 7 points over the US. So what's your point ?   I am happy that you are satisfied with your healthcare .. but don't go on public forums saying Canadian health care sucks, because it does not. Yes it does have some problems but you won't die due to lack of funds if you are unemployed or not covered by insurance at your work. Everyone in Canada has healthcare .. so I suggest you keep your rhetoric to yourself. "
You know you were just agreeing with him, right? "
Yeah .. I kinda fucked that up :P I thought it was Skytylz saying something about the US being over the UK by 7 pts. Deleted that comment .. but sadly the internet caught my mistake. Damn you guys are fast !! "
I like that I didn't even have to reply. :P 
Especially, since I royally messed up the link, making it cover the entire sentence, rather than just the url.
 
Edit: Also, I don't know why the USA has to use Canada as a model to compare against, when Western Europe or France seem to have better systems, according to the WHO.
#31 Posted by Clinkz (1118 posts) -
@turbomonkey138 said:
" @Clinkz said:
" @JeffGoldblum said:
" Because Fox News is biased and tricks most americans into thinking Universal Healthcare is evil. "
Oh and MSNBC doesn't spew biased leftist nonsense? "
I think i prefer the leftist nonsense than fox new mate ......republicans seem to emobdy every thing i hate about our world.. "
Huh, sorry to hear that. Maybe you could list a few points or you know...not generalize political factions into one broad category. They don't always have one set of ideals. 
 
I wish you would think before saying something as powerful as "embodying* everything I* hate about our world." It just displays ignorance.
#32 Edited by RsistncE (4496 posts) -
@chrissedoff: Someone gets it. Yay.
#33 Posted by Jeffsekai (7026 posts) -
@Fbomb said:
" @Skytylz said:

" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "

Oh really? 
 http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
We're ranked 7 spots higher than you by the World Health Organization, so I wouldn't make baseless generalizations based on whatever rhetoric you've heard other people spewing.
"
Canada is above you, so your wrong and America is retarded.
#34 Posted by nintendoeats (5975 posts) -

I should just make it clear: when us Canadians are bitching about our healthcare it is for internal reasons of problem identification. We love our healthcare, and we pretty consistently tell our government to put more money into it. Yes we whine about wait times and such, but that is how problems get solved in government.

#35 Posted by iAmJohn (6110 posts) -
@Jeffsekai said:
" @Fbomb said:
" @Skytylz said:

" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "

Oh really? 
 http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
We're ranked 7 spots higher than you by the World Health Organization, so I wouldn't make baseless generalizations based on whatever rhetoric you've heard other people spewing.
"
Canada is above you, so your wrong and America is retarded. "
Oh for fuck's sake, another one?
 
YES.  HE KNOWS CANADA IS ABOVE AMERICA.  THAT IS THE POINT.
#36 Posted by DuderBattalion (269 posts) -
@Fbomb: Haha .. guess that was a double fail ! ;)
#37 Posted by ThatFrood (3375 posts) -

American culture is a lot different than other ones, where many european nations are fairly conducive to socialized healthcare, america is not. Universal healthcare will be a beast to implement and financially devastating.
Put simply, America is big and America is fat. I don't mean that to be offensive, really. But Americans do not take care of their health as well as Europeans do, mostly because Americans don't really care as much about what they eat and drive around much more, it is not the fault of the healthcare system that Americans are fat. Universal healthcare will be abused like it has been abused in few other nations, it will be expensive and configure itself into a ponzi scheme of monstrous proportions.

#38 Posted by Ryax (4630 posts) -
@Kyreo said:
" @Ryax said:
" because our government is stupid. and they dont want to pay for us to live "
This.  Well said Ryax! "
im not completely retarded all the time
#39 Posted by nintendoeats (5975 posts) -

BTW, that list is from 2000. Relevance fail.

#40 Edited by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@Clinkz said:

" @turbomonkey138 said:

" @Clinkz said:
" @JeffGoldblum said:
" Because Fox News is biased and tricks most americans into thinking Universal Healthcare is evil. "
Oh and MSNBC doesn't spew biased leftist nonsense? "
I think i prefer the leftist nonsense than fox new mate ......republicans seem to emobdy every thing i hate about our world.. "
Huh, sorry to hear that. Maybe you could list a few points or you know...not generalize political factions into one broad category. They don't always have one set of ideals.   I wish you would think before saying something as powerful as "embodying* everything I* hate about our world." It just displays ignorance. "
Mainly becuase the MAJORITY  of republicans are against abortion and gay marriage . Which i think it stupid in this modern world .
#41 Posted by DuderBattalion (269 posts) -
@iAmJohn said:
" @Jeffsekai said:
" @Fbomb said:
" @Skytylz said:

" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "

Oh really? 
 http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
We're ranked 7 spots higher than you by the World Health Organization, so I wouldn't make baseless generalizations based on whatever rhetoric you've heard other people spewing.
"
Canada is above you, so your wrong and America is retarded. "
Oh for fuck's sake, another one?  YES.  HE KNOWS CANADA IS ABOVE AMERICA.  THAT IS THE POINT. "
Lol .. seeeeee ! It's an easy mistake to make :P 
#42 Posted by Scrawnto (2435 posts) -
@Jeffsekai: Fbomb is Canadian, and you're is a contraction.
#43 Posted by Fbomb (1168 posts) -
@Jeffsekai said:
" @Fbomb said:
" @Skytylz said:

" Because it will Bankrupt our country and universal health care sucks.  Canada has rather poor health care and the have "universal health care".  Our system isn't that bad right now, and it isn't the insurance companies causing the problems.  It's the $100 bandaids at hospitals causing it. "

Oh really? 
 http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
We're ranked 7 spots higher than you by the World Health Organization, so I wouldn't make baseless generalizations based on whatever rhetoric you've heard other people spewing.
"
Canada is above you, so your wrong and America is retarded. "
Canada is above me? I'm in Canada.
Also, I only used that to attack the negative generalization of the original poster. I'm not in any position to have any in-depth conversation about the American system, because I don't know enough about it to make any sort of argument either way. I'm just tired of people using Canada as a barometer of bad health care in this subsidized healthcare debate going on.
#44 Edited by nintendoeats (5975 posts) -
@ThatFrood: So what you are saying is that the free market "every man for himself" attitude has created a group of people with no sense of personal or social reponsibility that is incapable of functioning within any socialy minded framework, which causes the lower eschelons of society to suffer because they have essentially lost at economic musical chairs? Interesting...
#45 Posted by Fbomb (1168 posts) -
@nintendoeats said:
" BTW, that list is from 2000. Relevance fail. "
It's the last time the study was conducted, and not much has changed with western health care systems, much like how certain census data isn't collected yearly. It's not the crux of my argument, but it does illustrate how Canada isn't worse than the USA with healthcare standards.
#46 Posted by me3639 (1730 posts) -

Im actually rooting for health care for everyone then i can quit my job, finally. Oh yea, until 2014 when it BECOMES MANDATORY THEN YOU HAVE TO HAVE INSURANCE. Tell me o higher brain intelligent ones, how do you buy something you cant fucking afford?
 
I heard the next agenda is to change the U.S. flag from stars and stripes, to rainbows with a silhouette of the white house in the background. No lie.

#47 Posted by DCFGS3 (1054 posts) -
@Axxol said:
" I wish the president would tell Iraq and Afghanistan to solve their own problems instead of spending so much time arguing with politicians on health care. There's nothing terribly wrong with our health care now; if it isn't broke don't fix it. "
The fact that people need to declare bankruptcy and sell all their assets in order to receive life saving medicine means it's broken.
#48 Posted by chrissedoff (2075 posts) -
@Clinkz said:

" @JeffGoldblum said:

" Because Fox News is biased and tricks most americans into thinking Universal Healthcare is evil. "

Oh and MSNBC doesn't spew biased leftist nonsense? "
not really. msnbc is certainly guilty of employing pundits who make it their business to bash republican politician and conservative commentators (usually fairly, in my opinion) but who treat democratic policies as a panacea that would cure america's ills if not for republicans obstructing beneficial progress. msnbc's editorial programming is biased and superficial in its analysis, but they don't lie and distort facts on a consistent basis in order to fit a narrative like fox news' pundits do.
 
this is to say nothing of the fact that fox news' programming is based around its pundits. and that its straight news programming has been caught time and time again distorting the news almost as badly as their editorial commentators do. 
http://mediamatters.org/ is openly a "progressive" media watchdog organization, but they've done a good job at documenting naked bias at fox news which goes as far as outright lies (fox has gone to court to defend its right to lie in its news programming 
http://ceasespin.org/ceasespin_blog/ceasespin_blogger_files/fox_news_gets_okay_to_misinform_public.html). i've seen conservative media watchdogs try to make hay out of msnbc bias and maybe one out of 30 instances in which they allege deliberate misinformation are they accurate, if that.
 
what you've just done is make a false equivalency argument. basically you're saying that a non-equal sum on both sides means parity.  msnbc shows a slight bias for democrats (not necessarily for leftism, just the democratic party), but if you were to watch their network for a 24-hour news cycle, you would be reasonably well-informed on current events, albeit with opinions colored by people like maddow and olbermann. were you to watch fox news for the same period of time, you'd find a lot of arguably important stories discarded or distorted in a way which invariably favors the republican party and paints an ugly picture of democrats or anyone else whom the gop typically regards as "enemies" because the purpose of fox news is not really to inform its audience, but to be a public relations arm of the republican party and shoehorn the news into a preconceived narrative.
#49 Edited by RsistncE (4496 posts) -
@me3639 said:

" Im actually rooting for health care for everyone then i can quit my job, finally. Oh yea, until 2014 when it BECOMES MANDATORY THEN YOU HAVE TO HAVE INSURANCE. Tell me o higher brain intelligent ones, how do you buy something you cant fucking afford?  I heard the next agenda is to change the U.S. flag from stars and stripes, to rainbows with a silhouette of the white house in the background. No lie. "

You probably need to read into the overall healthcare reform bill a little better. It isn't going to force you to buy insurance at current rates because healthcare insurance won't exist as it does today in the US. I haven't read into the specifics (I'm not American) but I know that part of the reform is getting affordable healthcare insurance (like in Canada) out to those 30 million or so Americans by the time it becomes mandatory.
#50 Posted by nintendoeats (5975 posts) -
@Fbomb: I don't disagree with you're thesis. I just don't trust decade old statistics on complicated systems. You are probably right, but we have no real way of judging that.