#701 Posted by tonka_92 (34 posts) -

I only just got back into F1 this year, but man what a race!
Can't wait to hear danny and drew's thoughts

#702 Edited by diz (936 posts) -

@rethla said:

Yes the sides of the tyres hit each other, one going up (lotus) and one going down (sauber) and there you have it, thats also what "judders" the lotus car and deaccelerates it, its basicly inducing a massive braking on Lotus front left and launches Sauber rear right into the air with the car soon to follow when rear suspension bottoms out. You are right however in Maldonado being lucky with his struts not breaking although luck maybe isnt the right word here...

Check Kobayashis crash in Australia and you will see what happens if the nose crashes into another car, the nose totalt destroyed. At higher speeds it might be able to flip other cars like you describe but not in this case although what might have happend if the tyres hadnt hit each other and maldonados nose would have gotten straight in who can say, it hardly would have launched up in the air like this however.

I disagree in that the deceleration was obviously (to me) caused by the impact with the nose dipping to hit the track. This would not have happened in a purely wheel over wheel incident, as the tyre of the Lotus is mechanically isolated from the chassis through air in the tyre and the suspension. Luck had nothing to do with how brittle the suspension and steering struts are in F1 cars. Remember that both cars were decelerating hard in a corner at the time of the crash too.

The video (12 seconds in) of Kobayashi's crash shows that the nose is in-tact after the impact. I Can't see that it has been totally destroyed as you said it was. Wheels rubbing and wheel over wheel incidents are a common occurrence in F1's open-wheel racing, but cars somersaulting sideways is a rarity.

#703 Edited by rethla (814 posts) -
@diz said:

@rethla said:

Yes the sides of the tyres hit each other, one going up (lotus) and one going down (sauber) and there you have it, thats also what "judders" the lotus car and deaccelerates it, its basicly inducing a massive braking on Lotus front left and launches Sauber rear right into the air with the car soon to follow when rear suspension bottoms out. You are right however in Maldonado being lucky with his struts not breaking although luck maybe isnt the right word here...

Check Kobayashis crash in Australia and you will see what happens if the nose crashes into another car, the nose totalt destroyed. At higher speeds it might be able to flip other cars like you describe but not in this case although what might have happend if the tyres hadnt hit each other and maldonados nose would have gotten straight in who can say, it hardly would have launched up in the air like this however.

I disagree in that the deceleration was obviously (to me) caused by the impact with the nose dipping to hit the track. This would not have happened in a purely wheel over wheel incident, as the tyre of the Lotus is mechanically isolated from the chassis through air in the tyre and the suspension. Luck had nothing to do with how brittle the suspension and steering struts are in F1 cars. Remember that both cars were decelerating hard in a corner at the time of the crash too.

The video (12 seconds in) of Kobayashi's crash shows that the nose is in-tact after the impact. I Can't see that it has been totally destroyed as you said it was. Wheels rubbing and wheel over wheel incidents are a common occurrence in F1's open-wheel racing, but cars somersaulting sideways is a rarity.

Well i wouldnt call that "intact" ;)

However let me add another viewpoint. Lets say you are right with the wheels only glancing at each other and making no big difference, wouldnt last years nose design being dangerously close to hitting Gutierrez in the head?

#704 Edited by diz (936 posts) -

@rethla said:

Well i wouldnt call that "intact" ;)

However let me add another viewpoint. Lets say you are right with the wheels only glancing at each other and making no big difference, wouldnt last years nose design being dangerously close to hitting Gutierrez in the head?

I know you wouldn't call it in-tact - that's why I grabbed a video clip to show you the nose was not "totally destroyed" as you said it was.

You are right that the wheels did glance, and I think this obviously had some effect in the crash, but I think the new low noses are going to cause more problems like this in the future. Last year's nose was low enough so that the drivers could see over it, so would not be high enough to hit them in the head. I think the danger was in it going through the car's protective side structures and launching the crashing car into the air. I believe this has changed so that the victim is more likely to be launched into the air instead.

#705 Posted by Phouchg (61 posts) -

I feel there is a greater risk of the one doing the shovelling getting hurt than the one on the receiving end. For example in the case of kobayashis crash there is the risk of the car behind going completely under to car in front and getting a formula one gear box in his face.

#706 Edited by Splodge (1927 posts) -

I finally got around to watching the Bahrain race last night while avoiding any spoilers, and listened to the podcast afterwards. It was an incredible race. I definitely picked the right year to get back into F1!

What really impressed me was how close a lot of the drivers came to touching, yet apart from the obvious incident it was a very safe race. The sheer skill on display was breathtaking.

#707 Posted by rethla (814 posts) -

@phouchg said:

I feel there is a greater risk of the one doing the shovelling getting hurt than the one on the receiving end. For example in the case of kobayashis crash there is the risk of the car behind going completely under to car in front and getting a formula one gear box in his face.

Yes that is the main concern with the new nose design.

#708 Edited by Unsupervised (54 posts) -
#710 Edited by Khann (2913 posts) -
@diz said:

@rethla said:

Yes the sides of the tyres hit each other, one going up (lotus) and one going down (sauber) and there you have it, thats also what "judders" the lotus car and deaccelerates it, its basicly inducing a massive braking on Lotus front left and launches Sauber rear right into the air with the car soon to follow when rear suspension bottoms out. You are right however in Maldonado being lucky with his struts not breaking although luck maybe isnt the right word here...

Check Kobayashis crash in Australia and you will see what happens if the nose crashes into another car, the nose totalt destroyed. At higher speeds it might be able to flip other cars like you describe but not in this case although what might have happend if the tyres hadnt hit each other and maldonados nose would have gotten straight in who can say, it hardly would have launched up in the air like this however.

I disagree in that the deceleration was obviously (to me) caused by the impact with the nose dipping to hit the track. This would not have happened in a purely wheel over wheel incident, as the tyre of the Lotus is mechanically isolated from the chassis through air in the tyre and the suspension. Luck had nothing to do with how brittle the suspension and steering struts are in F1 cars. Remember that both cars were decelerating hard in a corner at the time of the crash too.

The video (12 seconds in) of Kobayashi's crash shows that the nose is in-tact after the impact. I Can't see that it has been totally destroyed as you said it was. Wheels rubbing and wheel over wheel incidents are a common occurrence in F1's open-wheel racing, but cars somersaulting sideways is a rarity.

This "argument" is getting a bit silly now, but look here. (Hover over that and controls will show. You can skip forward frame by frame. The frame # is shown in the URL.) In frame 47-48, you can see the wheels make contact. The nose is nowhere near the side of GUT's sidepod (relatively speaking). The endplate later comes into contact with the sidepod, which is where the debris comes from.

#711 Edited by diz (936 posts) -

@khann said:

This "argument" is getting a bit silly now, but look here. (Hover over that and controls will show. You can skip forward frame by frame. The frame # is shown in the URL.) In frame 47-48, you can see the wheels make contact. The nose is nowhere near the side of GUT's sidepod (relatively speaking). The endplate later comes into contact with the sidepod, which is where the debris comes from.

I think "discussion" is healthy, as long as good evidence can support a view. I don't know how you can say what you do about the impact based on your GIF footage, since it was filmed at the other side of the impact so that the Sauber obscures the areas of interest. I did gather from your footage that the wing end-plate went underneath the Sauber many frames before the wheels could have glanced, so don't understand how your end-plate contact statement could possibly correlate with your footage or with your reasoning (which would mean the Lotus' wheel would have already flipped the car clear of it). You can clearly see my contrary evidence on the Youtube footage I provided, which was filmed at an angle that does show the point of impact and cause of the debris.

#712 Posted by Khann (2913 posts) -

@diz: It's possible the end-plate hit first, but it was absolutely the tyre contact that made the cars flip. Sky did an analysis post-race.. I can't seem to find the footage.

#713 Posted by diz (936 posts) -

@khann said:

@diz: It's possible the end-plate hit first, but it was absolutely the tyre contact that made the cars flip. Sky did an analysis post-race.. I can't seem to find the footage.

It does not make a convincing argument when you go back on what you say (re: the front wing elements) then speak in absolutes and mention some supposedly hear-say evidence from an unreliable (as Sky is in my view) source. I'm comfortable if you think the low nose had no part in flipping the Sauber. But I think (and have produced) clear evidence that shows otherwise.

#714 Edited by Khann (2913 posts) -

Ok.

#715 Posted by OleMarthin (316 posts) -

@diz: It's a bad camera angle but you can see that it is the back end of the Sauber that starts the flip, caused by the wheel contact. The flip starts at the right backside of the Sauber when the wheel goes over the wheel of the lotus car, if it was caused by the front wing the Sauber would (probably) not have flipped and at least not like this flip, the flip would be more like a normal barrel roll, without the twist. Also i think the fact that the wing on the lotus is barely damaged is proof that the impact of the front wing and the sauber was of a low force and most of the impact happened at the wheels.

#716 Posted by Sessh (1049 posts) -

With Bahrain tests being over, I'm now convinced that Ferrari is gonna stay dead for the whole season. It's laughable, really.

#717 Edited by diz (936 posts) -

@diz: It's a bad camera angle but you can see that it is the back end of the Sauber that starts the flip, caused by the wheel contact. The flip starts at the right backside of the Sauber when the wheel goes over the wheel of the lotus car, if it was caused by the front wing the Sauber would (probably) not have flipped and at least not like this flip, the flip would be more like a normal barrel roll, without the twist. Also i think the fact that the wing on the lotus is barely damaged is proof that the impact of the front wing and the sauber was of a low force and most of the impact happened at the wheels.

I maintain that you can not see all that from that bad camera angle. You might presume it, but that does not take into account the other evidence. The clip I provided from a good angle does show what happened. There is also the additional evidence gained from it (Lotus nose hitting the road at moment of impact, Lotus' rear wing movement on impact, dent in side of Sauber where Lotus nose hit, half logo removal on the sides of wheels, indicating that the wheels only glanced, etc) I've already noted that is not contested but ignored instead. I don't think anyone is saying it is the wing of the Lotus that caused the Sauber to flip, but what I've been saying is that the new lower nose was a contributor to the resultant flip.

The fact the the elements broke on the left of the Lotus' wing indicate that it went under the side of the Sauber as the Lotus nose hit it. How could this have hapened if it was only the wheels that caused the flip? Previous side impacts have made cars spin, even when there is wheel contact.

#718 Posted by rethla (814 posts) -

@diz said:

The fact the the elements broke on the left of the Lotus' wing indicate that it went under the side of the Sauber as the Lotus nose hit it. How could this have hapened if it was only the wheels that caused the flip? Previous side impacts have made cars spin, even when there is wheel contact.

When wheels crash together like this what usually happens is the wheel launches up in the air and then breaks the struts when suspension bottoms out, i have seen it many times in open wheel racing. The unique thing here is that the struts hold their ground in a manner of speaking. After reading all your posts about this im beginning to think the nose actually contibuted with some uplift maybe at the exact right moment? Who knows its a mystery.

Also you say both cars are running slow and theres no speed in the wheels, "slow" in this case is ~70km/h (43mph) and Gutierrez is starting to accelerate out of the corner so while there is no speed in his wheels there sure is torque.

#719 Edited by diz (936 posts) -

@rethla said:

When wheels crash together like this what usually happens is the wheel launches up in the air and then breaks the struts when suspension bottoms out, i have seen it many times in open wheel racing. The unique thing here is that the struts hold their ground in a manner of speaking. After reading all your posts about this im beginning to think the nose actually contibuted with some uplift maybe at the exact right moment? Who knows its a mystery.

Also you say both cars are running slow and theres no speed in the wheels, "slow" in this case is ~70km/h (43mph) and Gutierrez is starting to accelerate out of the corner so while there is no speed in his wheels there sure is torque.

Are you talking about the struts breaking on the car being launched (i.e. rear wheels) or the car doing the launching (i.e. front wheels)? Why would the suspension bottom out in either case? In the launched car; if the suspension breaks then would reduce any launching effect as the impact and leverage is absorbed by the collapsing suspension. In the car doing the launching; the suspension would not be affected by a lateral collision force (in the direction of travel) and the tyre would absorb a certain amount of impact as it forces a launched car over it.

I can't see this happening in the incident we're discussing because on the marks on the tyres suggest a glancing side impact rather than a wheel over wheel incident. I accept that the Sauber may have started to accelerate out of the corner and there is tremendous torque in the rear wheels though. I'm not sure it would have been enough to cause this type of collision, especially since many other clear wheel over wheel incidents have only resulted in launches and spins (and world championship victories):

The video clip of the crash I posted earlier does indicate the nose contributed to lifting the Sauber up: After all, when the nose on the Lotus was pushed downwards at impact, what would be the opposing force applied to the Sauber?

#720 Edited by rethla (814 posts) -

Im really bad at this technical english but i will try to explain it.

The wheel on the "launched car" in this case the Sauber launches upwards into the air. The force is all absorbed by the suspension until the suspension bottoms out at wich point the force goes directly into the chassis. Normaly when this happens in racing the struts and suspension break and only the wheel continues up in the air attached only by a wire but as you see on the Schumacherclip and on Gutierrez once in a while the struts dont break and the car follows the wheel into the air.

The marks on the tyre in my oppinion shows there was a short but high friction touch, the opposite to glansing. The wheels did not ran over each other however. Maybe im misundersdanding the meaning of "glance"?

#721 Edited by diz (936 posts) -

@rethla said:

Im really bad at this technical english but i will try to explain it.

The wheel on the "launched car" in this case the Sauber launches upwards into the air. The force is all absorbed by the suspension until the suspension bottoms out at wich point the force goes directly into the chassis. Normaly when this happens in racing the struts and suspension break and only the wheel continues up in the air attached only by a wire but as you see on the Schumacherclip and on Gutierrez once in a while the struts dont break and the car follows the wheel into the air.

The marks on the tyre in my oppinion shows there was a short but high friction touch, the opposite to glansing. The wheels did not ran over each other however. Maybe im misundersdanding the meaning of "glance"?

I hear what you're saying and that was a good explanation in technical English! I think we agree that the wheels did not go over each other but touched and moved against each other at the points where the logos wore off the tyres. To me, that would indicate a more lateral force than an upwards force and result in twisting the car sideways rather than upwards. If this force had been the single severe point of impact, then surely the suspensions on either car would have collapsed because the of this side-on angle of impact.

I reckon that this was not the source of the main impact and that the nose pushing under the Sauber and damaging it's side skirt in the process was the primary point of impact. I can't see how that damage would have happened if the the wheels alone caused the flip.

As you know, Schumacher won the 1994 championship by default because he did break Hill's suspension in that final Australia race, just like he set out to do.

#722 Posted by Unsupervised (54 posts) -
#723 Posted by Gyrfal (124 posts) -
#724 Edited by diz (936 posts) -

Stefano Domenicali has resigned his position as team principal from Ferrari. This comes after some criticism of the team from Alonso and some poor results so far this year.

From here

Rumour has it that Ross Brawn (formerly of Brawn, Mercedes, Ferrari, Honda, Benetton and Williams) is in the frame to get his old job back....

#725 Posted by skip124 (34 posts) -

quite an interesting story, talk about attention to detail, thought I'd share it here, Seen on tested.com (hope mentioning the site is ok)

#726 Edited by Phouchg (61 posts) -

@diz: They've all ready named a replacement, Marco Mattiacci. Apparently he's some corporate golden boy within Ferrari.. Has no motorsports background but knows how the ferrari family works or something and that i supposedly harder to get in to than the whole racing thing.

Will be interesting to see what he does with the team.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113454

#727 Edited by Khann (2913 posts) -

@diz said:

Stefano Domenicali has resigned his position as team principal from Ferrari. This comes after some criticism of the team from Alonso and some poor results so far this year.

From here

Rumour has it that Ross Brawn (formerly of Brawn, Mercedes, Ferrari, Honda, Benetton and Williams) is in the frame to get his old job back....

To be fair, it's been more like 4 years of poor results. Alonso is the only reason they've been anywhere in the championship.

#728 Posted by diz (936 posts) -

@phouchg said:

@diz: They've all ready named a replacement, Marco Mattiacci. Apparently he's some corporate golden boy within Ferrari.. Has no motorsports background but knows how the ferrari family works or something and that i supposedly harder to get in to than the whole racing thing.

Will be interesting to see what he does with the team.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113454

I know this - it was all in the article I linked to. Obviously Ross Brawn has some idea about how Ferrari work after winning them 5 world championships and being notionally available after being sidelined from Mercedes. The BBC article I linked to does include this speculation, so it is not my idea (but John Watson's). The autosport article in your link sounds like a load of old tosh to me and I think Mattiacci is just a stand-in while they look for a more suitable team leader. We shall see how "complicated" it will be to learn how F1 sport works, then how that will telescope into running the successful championship winning team that Motezemolo, Alonso and Raikkonen require.

Perhaps the FIA should step up and give Ferrari yet more preferential treatment to assist their competing in F1.

#729 Posted by Phouchg (61 posts) -

@diz said:

I know this - it was all in the article I linked to. Obviously Ross Brawn has some idea about how Ferrari work after winning them 5 world championships and being notionally available after being sidelined from Mercedes. The BBC article I linked to does include this speculation, so it is not my idea (but John Watson's). The autosport article in your link sounds like a load of old tosh to me and I think Mattiacci is just a stand-in while they look for a more suitable team leader. We shall see how "complicated" it will be to learn how F1 sport works, then how that will telescope into running the successful championship winning team that Motezemolo, Alonso and Raikkonen require.

Perhaps the FIA should step up and give Ferrari yet more preferential treatment to assist their competing in F1.

Oh shit, I've become one of those that don't read the thing I'm commenting on, sorry about that.

But yeah seems weird that they would assign a guy without any knowledge about the sport. He will probably have people around him that know that shit at least. Still doubt Brawn will actually come back, he seemed far too happy with his retirement to come back after such a short while.

#730 Edited by rethla (814 posts) -

So Red bull lost their appeal and Daniel is officially disqualified from the Australian gp. I think its good they are clear with the rules even if its tough on Ricciardo.

Edit: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2014/4/15721.html

#731 Edited by T0FFE (162 posts) -

Paul Harris from Mercedes went all out before the verdict, and was in my opinion acting like a real douche when he said

"We respectfully submit that the most effective way to ensure that Red Bull do not flount further instructions from the FIA is for this court to recognise the severity of their infringement and to impose a further sanction upon them which is to be suspended for the rest of the reason, so that they are acutely aware."

Seems a bit harsh if you ask me.

"We are, frankly, and with great respect, concerned that Red Bull have shown such a flagrant and deliberate disregard for these rules that there is a real risk they will do it again," said Harris in his closing statement.

Source: https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/formula-1-mercedes-wants-red-bull-sanctions-154635602--f1.html

#732 Posted by mikey87144 (1806 posts) -

I wonder how many years it will take them to be good. Judging from other teams it could be a decade until they get podium finishes and that's if they're willing to take those hits financially for those early years. Also are they going to get Americans to choose F1 over Nascar or are they going to just going to look at the usual pool. (Granted though F1 drivers come from all over the world).

#733 Edited by Sessh (1049 posts) -

@phouchg: @diz:

Well, with Motezemolo now having announced that he plans to be way more involved in the running of the team itself, Mattiacci makes sense as a figurehead. So I have to image that was the plan from the start, else I agree that Mattiacci learning the ins and outs of F1 like this is completely ridiculous.

@t0ffe

While yes, Harris' statement was over the top, that's pretty much par for the course every time there's a hearing/penalty dealt out to someone. Pretty much every team has made similar comments about some issue or other. It's just part of the game, so to speak.

#734 Posted by mustardfacial (35 posts) -

I wonder how many years it will take them to be good. Judging from other teams it could be a decade until they get podium finishes and that's if they're willing to take those hits financially for those early years. Also are they going to get Americans to choose F1 over Nascar or are they going to just going to look at the usual pool. (Granted though F1 drivers come from all over the world).

Just the fact that there is an American team is more of an incentive for broadcasters to show the races. More exposure means eventually more Americans will start watching now that they have someone to root for (especially now that NASCAR is more shit than it usually is). Exposure is the biggest limiting factor right now really.

#735 Posted by Gyrfal (124 posts) -

I'm pretty sure Pastor Maldonado thinks that F1 is a full contact sport. The walls got lucky during P1, but he made sure to get it during P2.

#736 Posted by MachoFantastico (4889 posts) -
#737 Posted by rethla (814 posts) -
#738 Edited by VierasTalo (933 posts) -

I don't care two shits about F1 but I like Danny and Drew. Should I listen to this thing?

#739 Posted by BaconGames (3571 posts) -

@vierastalo said:

I don't care two shits about F1 but I like Danny and Drew. Should I listen to this thing?

Either three things will happen, you'll actually get into F1 as a result of this podcast (which I did), you'll enjoy it anyway and never watch a race, or you'll know it's not worth it and turn it off. Each episode is an hour, I say give the first a try and see what happens.

#740 Posted by Optix12 (625 posts) -

If they can pair the new US team coming (im assuming next year) with the NY/NJ street track being on the calendar, it should produce a huge amount of appeal for Americans to get involved with formula 1.

#741 Posted by aurahack (2289 posts) -

Oh, Pastor. FP2 SPOILERS.

That honestly might be my favorite Team Radio conversation, though.

#742 Edited by Fooms (15 posts) -

Lite rain for Qualifying, this is going to really shake things up as the difference in power between engines matters less. This is going to be an awesome race.

#743 Posted by ThatOneDudeNick (743 posts) -

Aw it's finally making me log in to use the NBC stream. I hella don't remember my Cox Cable login. Watching a maybe-legal Sky stream here

#744 Edited by Khann (2913 posts) -

Lewis smashed it again... Ricciardo showing yet again that he isn't ready to be a #2

Rosberg trying way too hard.

#745 Posted by cclemon36 (181 posts) -

Williams seemed to do well despite being regarded as having poor performance in the wet, which is a good sign. It's tough to root against one of the most likeable guys in the sport, but I want Bottas to always be ahead of Massa, and it is going to be tough to overtake him in the race.

Surprisingly big performance gap between Kimi and Alonso. Raikkonen didn't make it into Q3 and was outperformed by Grosjean in a Lotus. That being said, a great job by GRO getting up to P10.

#746 Edited by Sessh (1049 posts) -

Well, Kimi and Rosberg both had problems with their car, so I'm not all that surprised with their results (Rosberg's spin was bad though), and Rosberg still has every possibility of winning this in the race, if you ask me.

What did surprise me, is that McLaren got so much weaker, and that Perez was off pace by that much.

As for Grosjean, I doubt he'll manage to finish in the points.

#747 Posted by sketch (194 posts) -

@sessh: McLaren's main issue so far this season seems to be getting heat in the front tyres. The rain exacerbates the problem quite a bit.

#748 Posted by ThatOneDudeNick (743 posts) -

I feel bad that I'm new to watching the sport and I like Hamilton. I feel like it seems like I'm only cheering for him because he's good. I just picked a person that seemed likeable before the first race. I hope he doesn't dominate all season though. I want it to stay interesting. I don't watch sports, so it's weird caring about who wins a sporting event (especially one I have no history with).

Also, I wish they'd open up the GB chat during the race (obviously they can't broadcast it here).

#749 Edited by BaconGames (3571 posts) -

Shame Perez qualified 16 but here's hoping Hulkenberg can move up from 8th and make this interesting. Force India! Although I'd be lying if I wasn't rooting for Williams by way of Massa.

#750 Edited by Clutch414 (50 posts) -

NBCSN is re-airing qualifying now.