The Stigma Surrounding Video Games and How To Stop It

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Edited By gamer_152  Moderator

It’s Sunday 21st November, this is my blog, and today we’re all going to learn a very special lesson.

E-Sports

So, last weekend the finals of the 2nd GOMTV Global Starcraft II League went down in Seoul, South Korea, and the GSL 3 has already started. Recently I’ve been reminded just how inconceivably popular e-sports and specifically Starcraft are in Korea. Okay, playing video games professionally is not something that is entirely unheard of in the western world; you have your MLG and your odd tournaments here and there, but is it anywhere near close to being seen as a sporting event? Well, we all know the unfortunate answer to that.

The Video Game Stigma

 Why can't we have e-sports!? Korea got to have e-sports!
 Why can't we have e-sports!? Korea got to have e-sports!

It’s not as if video games are exactly unpopular in the west though, if there can be 4 million people playing Black Ops on Xbox LIVE at once then where is your flashy stadium full of screaming fans cheering on their favourite Call of Duty players? Well, I believe that for the most part this is all about how video games are seen in society in general. Granted, we’re far from the days of arcades being seen as twisted dens of depravity, and any adult playing video games being seen as a backwards social reject, but there is still an obvious stigma attached to consuming any electronic entertainment that isn’t manufactured for the casual masses.

 To declare that you spent a weekend playing video games to some would make it seem as though you’d partaken in a slovenly and perhaps slightly shameful activity, but saying you spent a weekend watching sports, it would seem to almost everyone that you had committed your weekend to an entirely socially acceptable activity, even though the difference between these two activities is not all that great. In fact you could argue that if you had spent your weekend playing video games as opposed to watching sports you would probably have gotten more mental exercise. However, when these are the prejudices held against people who would play video games on a regular basis, it’s understandable how those who have dedicated a large portion of their lives to video games haven’t exactly been met with praise and admiration.

While I’m certainly not the perfect poster boy for video game enthusiasts, on my university course I’ve met plenty of people, like me, training to be computer games programmers, and most of them are perfectly normal human beings, and act just like any other university student. However, I think we all know that “I’m a games programming student” isn’t usually the best ice-breaker in conversation. Whenever I tell anyone who’s not rather seriously into video games about what I do they’ll usually politely claim an interest in my course, but I can’t help feel like there’s a little bit of them wondering if I’ll be able to uphold enough social decorum not to just drool all over the floor, or whether I’m going to burst into a high-pitched, nasally diatribe about the finer points of binary code.

The Blame Game

 Perhaps the most misunderstood scene in 21st century video games.
 Perhaps the most misunderstood scene in 21st century video games.

So, who is to blame for all these silly misconceptions, and this ignorance against fans of the interactive digital arts? Well, at this point I think most people would point towards mass media as the evil oppressive force, keeping a lot of video game players from being seen as “normal people”. My answer to whose fault it is? Well, I think it’s just about everyone’s fault. Certainly, television and the news aren’t helping. While we may be slowly drifting away from a world where any nut job can appear on any television station, and launch into a thunderous rant about how playing video games will make you into a mass murderer, rapist, addict, and carjacker rolled into one, it’s still rather striking to see that even in the 21st century, those who enjoy video games have been demonised in unfair situations such as the Mass Effect and Modern Warfare 2 controversies. Television shows such as Law & Order have also depicted those who play video games on a regular basis in a less than flattering light.

The problem is that it’s all one big cycle. It’s easier for television to play off of the popular view of a certain group of people because they know that’s what gets ratings, and when they portray that group of people in the way they do people pick up on it, it becomes their view, and the whole pointless scenario perpetuates itself over and over. Like any cycle, if it is to change it needs something to break it. To an extent, for a long while game publishers and console manufacturers did themselves a disservice by not trying to market to a wider audience, although this is now being somewhat rectified. I’m not just talking about them publishing motion control games and producing countless trailers of happy generic families jumping about their living room, although anything that can bring mainstream entertainment and traditional gaming closer is good. What might have an even greater impact is them showing that popular “core games” aren’t just for basement-dwelling thirty-somethings and over-excited twelve year olds, and I’d like to see more of that. Also, you may say what you want about games looking more and more like movies, or more famous actors and actresses voicing games, but undoubtedly these are things that are going to get more and more people interested in games.

So, that’s the media and the games industry, who else is to blame? Well, I’m sorry to say that I believe that on the whole video game enthusiasts are also negatively impacting the situation. Ben Crosshaw, better known as hot-headed video game cynic Yahtzee, wrote an article not so long ago about retiring the word “gamer” due to it having so many negative connotations in the public eye. I have to give credit to the man, he had a point; the continued use of the word is just one way in which the people who love video games have stunted the acceptance of them as a mainstream entertainment medium.

What Can We Do To Help?

 If this insulting portrayal isn't enough incentive to fix this, I don't know what is.
 If this insulting portrayal isn't enough incentive to fix this, I don't know what is.

I’m not calling for an outright ban of the phrase” gamer” (because where would that leave me?) but I am saying think a little more about how you act when you talk about video games. I think a big part of this links back an issue I touched on a couple of weeks back; the acceptance of “casual gamers” by “core gamers”.   When the stereotype is that video game enthusiasts are uptight, overly-obsessive individuals, when we act like uptight, overly-obsessive individuals in the face of the general public playing video games, it does not help. Similarly, when the mainstream media say something dumb and discriminatory about video games, an insulting, poorly thought-out response does not help the image of the people playing video games. In fact even the way in which average game enthusiasts act on the internet can often look extraordinarily anti-social, and too often involves a kind of rudeness and crass attitude no reasonable person would display in face-to-face discussion. So, what can you do specifically?

  • When you discuss video games with people act like a normal, polite human being, “It’s just the internet” is not an excuse for insulting or immature behaviour.
  • Think about limiting your use of the phrases “gamer”, or “casual” and “core”, and if you can’t do that at least be careful where you use them for fear of helping fuel these unreasonable stereotypes.
  • Be accepting of those who want to play video games, even if they are unknowledgeable or naive about games, everyone has the right to enjoy video games, no matter what kinds of games they choose to play.
  • Finally, educate the people around you about video games. Don’t make yourself look like a crazy person and push your views on them, but I know there are a lot of people out there who would feel embarrassed to admit just how big a part of their lives video games are. Swallow your pride, admit to it, and show how people how someone who is really into video games can still act like a regular, functioning person.


All Good Things Must Come To An End

 One day this could be for us.
 One day this could be for us.

Of course, all of this is assuming you really want a world where video games are accepted as part of mainstream entertainment. I believe a lot of people dream of a world where everyone plays video games simply as a world where there are more good games and they can talk to more people about the games they play. The truth is a world where everyone plays video games is going to be filled with more games that are more palatable to the mainstream, and might only be achievable if we all do our bit to make it happen. There is an ever-expanding opportunity for us to see the day when hundreds of people will be sitting in stadiums, cheering on their favourite Call of Duty players, but progress is rarely made without sacrifice.

Good luck, have Gary.

-Gamer_152

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#1  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator

It’s Sunday 21st November, this is my blog, and today we’re all going to learn a very special lesson.

E-Sports

So, last weekend the finals of the 2nd GOMTV Global Starcraft II League went down in Seoul, South Korea, and the GSL 3 has already started. Recently I’ve been reminded just how inconceivably popular e-sports and specifically Starcraft are in Korea. Okay, playing video games professionally is not something that is entirely unheard of in the western world; you have your MLG and your odd tournaments here and there, but is it anywhere near close to being seen as a sporting event? Well, we all know the unfortunate answer to that.

The Video Game Stigma

 Why can't we have e-sports!? Korea got to have e-sports!
 Why can't we have e-sports!? Korea got to have e-sports!

It’s not as if video games are exactly unpopular in the west though, if there can be 4 million people playing Black Ops on Xbox LIVE at once then where is your flashy stadium full of screaming fans cheering on their favourite Call of Duty players? Well, I believe that for the most part this is all about how video games are seen in society in general. Granted, we’re far from the days of arcades being seen as twisted dens of depravity, and any adult playing video games being seen as a backwards social reject, but there is still an obvious stigma attached to consuming any electronic entertainment that isn’t manufactured for the casual masses.

 To declare that you spent a weekend playing video games to some would make it seem as though you’d partaken in a slovenly and perhaps slightly shameful activity, but saying you spent a weekend watching sports, it would seem to almost everyone that you had committed your weekend to an entirely socially acceptable activity, even though the difference between these two activities is not all that great. In fact you could argue that if you had spent your weekend playing video games as opposed to watching sports you would probably have gotten more mental exercise. However, when these are the prejudices held against people who would play video games on a regular basis, it’s understandable how those who have dedicated a large portion of their lives to video games haven’t exactly been met with praise and admiration.

While I’m certainly not the perfect poster boy for video game enthusiasts, on my university course I’ve met plenty of people, like me, training to be computer games programmers, and most of them are perfectly normal human beings, and act just like any other university student. However, I think we all know that “I’m a games programming student” isn’t usually the best ice-breaker in conversation. Whenever I tell anyone who’s not rather seriously into video games about what I do they’ll usually politely claim an interest in my course, but I can’t help feel like there’s a little bit of them wondering if I’ll be able to uphold enough social decorum not to just drool all over the floor, or whether I’m going to burst into a high-pitched, nasally diatribe about the finer points of binary code.

The Blame Game

 Perhaps the most misunderstood scene in 21st century video games.
 Perhaps the most misunderstood scene in 21st century video games.

So, who is to blame for all these silly misconceptions, and this ignorance against fans of the interactive digital arts? Well, at this point I think most people would point towards mass media as the evil oppressive force, keeping a lot of video game players from being seen as “normal people”. My answer to whose fault it is? Well, I think it’s just about everyone’s fault. Certainly, television and the news aren’t helping. While we may be slowly drifting away from a world where any nut job can appear on any television station, and launch into a thunderous rant about how playing video games will make you into a mass murderer, rapist, addict, and carjacker rolled into one, it’s still rather striking to see that even in the 21st century, those who enjoy video games have been demonised in unfair situations such as the Mass Effect and Modern Warfare 2 controversies. Television shows such as Law & Order have also depicted those who play video games on a regular basis in a less than flattering light.

The problem is that it’s all one big cycle. It’s easier for television to play off of the popular view of a certain group of people because they know that’s what gets ratings, and when they portray that group of people in the way they do people pick up on it, it becomes their view, and the whole pointless scenario perpetuates itself over and over. Like any cycle, if it is to change it needs something to break it. To an extent, for a long while game publishers and console manufacturers did themselves a disservice by not trying to market to a wider audience, although this is now being somewhat rectified. I’m not just talking about them publishing motion control games and producing countless trailers of happy generic families jumping about their living room, although anything that can bring mainstream entertainment and traditional gaming closer is good. What might have an even greater impact is them showing that popular “core games” aren’t just for basement-dwelling thirty-somethings and over-excited twelve year olds, and I’d like to see more of that. Also, you may say what you want about games looking more and more like movies, or more famous actors and actresses voicing games, but undoubtedly these are things that are going to get more and more people interested in games.

So, that’s the media and the games industry, who else is to blame? Well, I’m sorry to say that I believe that on the whole video game enthusiasts are also negatively impacting the situation. Ben Crosshaw, better known as hot-headed video game cynic Yahtzee, wrote an article not so long ago about retiring the word “gamer” due to it having so many negative connotations in the public eye. I have to give credit to the man, he had a point; the continued use of the word is just one way in which the people who love video games have stunted the acceptance of them as a mainstream entertainment medium.

What Can We Do To Help?

 If this insulting portrayal isn't enough incentive to fix this, I don't know what is.
 If this insulting portrayal isn't enough incentive to fix this, I don't know what is.

I’m not calling for an outright ban of the phrase” gamer” (because where would that leave me?) but I am saying think a little more about how you act when you talk about video games. I think a big part of this links back an issue I touched on a couple of weeks back; the acceptance of “casual gamers” by “core gamers”.   When the stereotype is that video game enthusiasts are uptight, overly-obsessive individuals, when we act like uptight, overly-obsessive individuals in the face of the general public playing video games, it does not help. Similarly, when the mainstream media say something dumb and discriminatory about video games, an insulting, poorly thought-out response does not help the image of the people playing video games. In fact even the way in which average game enthusiasts act on the internet can often look extraordinarily anti-social, and too often involves a kind of rudeness and crass attitude no reasonable person would display in face-to-face discussion. So, what can you do specifically?

  • When you discuss video games with people act like a normal, polite human being, “It’s just the internet” is not an excuse for insulting or immature behaviour.
  • Think about limiting your use of the phrases “gamer”, or “casual” and “core”, and if you can’t do that at least be careful where you use them for fear of helping fuel these unreasonable stereotypes.
  • Be accepting of those who want to play video games, even if they are unknowledgeable or naive about games, everyone has the right to enjoy video games, no matter what kinds of games they choose to play.
  • Finally, educate the people around you about video games. Don’t make yourself look like a crazy person and push your views on them, but I know there are a lot of people out there who would feel embarrassed to admit just how big a part of their lives video games are. Swallow your pride, admit to it, and show how people how someone who is really into video games can still act like a regular, functioning person.


All Good Things Must Come To An End

 One day this could be for us.
 One day this could be for us.

Of course, all of this is assuming you really want a world where video games are accepted as part of mainstream entertainment. I believe a lot of people dream of a world where everyone plays video games simply as a world where there are more good games and they can talk to more people about the games they play. The truth is a world where everyone plays video games is going to be filled with more games that are more palatable to the mainstream, and might only be achievable if we all do our bit to make it happen. There is an ever-expanding opportunity for us to see the day when hundreds of people will be sitting in stadiums, cheering on their favourite Call of Duty players, but progress is rarely made without sacrifice.

Good luck, have Gary.

-Gamer_152

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#2  Edited By Skald

I'd rather have a world where video games are misunderstood than one where people watch other people play StarCraft as if it were a legitimate sport. With few exceptions, video games are all really boring to watch. StarCraft II, in my opinion, especially.
 
Also, I wouldn't really call No Russian misunderstood: Infinity Ward put that seen in for the purpose of drumming up some controversy. 

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#3  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@extremeradical said:
" I'd rather have a world where video games are misunderstood than one where people watch other people play StarCraft as if it were a legitimate sport. With few exceptions, video games are all really boring to watch. StarCraft II, in my opinion, especially. Also, I wouldn't really call No Russian misunderstood: Infinity Ward put that seen in for the purpose of drumming up some controversy.  "
Okay, I get that you don't like watching Starcraft II and most e-sports, but why does that mean other people shouldn't treat it as a legitimate competitive art? Also, while 'No Russian' was definitely put in to incite reaction in players I don't think there's sufficient proof that it was in there purely for the purposes of sparking controversy. Even if it was though, I still think it's misunderstood; what the media saw was a scene where players were rewarded for immoral actions, whereas it wasn't about gameplay at all, but instead about shocking the player by setting up what was supposed to be a very horrifying event. I also think that most media overestimated the scene's ability to teach players to imitate the actions they saw on-screen.
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Interesting blog post. I believe it will just take time and that videogames are still in their infancy. I mean people said the same sort of things when TV came out right? Give it some years and I think they will be seen as far more acceptable than they are now. Humans just distrust new things I guess.

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#5  Edited By BeachThunder

@_152: Honestly, I think the only real solution is to wait for older generations to die out. It's the same with many other things from impressionism to rock 'n' roll.

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#6  Edited By ryanwho

There will always be smelly fat people who play videogames. Disassociate yourselves with the stereotypical culture and the stigma won't be on you. Try and defend that culture and you're part of it. Its the difference between the average sports fan and the fat guy covered in paint.

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#7  Edited By Bollard
@extremeradical said:

" I'd rather have a world where video games are misunderstood than one where people watch other people play StarCraft as if it were a legitimate sport. With few exceptions, video games are all really boring to watch. StarCraft II, in my opinion, especially. "

eSport =/= Sport. The only reason for sport being in the phrase is to represent the fact it is competitive, and requires skill to be good at. Personally, I find eSports fantastically entertaining to watch, Starcraft II, especially. eSports becoming big in Europe/USA will only be a good thing, as there are plenty of people out there who will watch it and it will certainly generate money. The more people accept games the better in my opinion. 
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#8  Edited By Icemael
@ryanwho said:
" There will always be smelly fat people who play videogames. Disassociate yourselves with the stereotypical culture and the stigma won't be on you. Try and defend that culture and you're part of it. "
Pretty much this. People don't stigmatize gamers -- people stigmatize fat, sweaty and/or socially awkward gamers.
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#9  Edited By ProfessorEss

I feel ya 152, but personally, I'm in no rush.

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#10  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@IamNOTatalkingpony said:
" Interesting blog post. I believe it will just take time and that videogames are still in their infancy. I mean people said the same sort of things when TV came out right? Give it some years and I think they will be seen as far more acceptable than they are now. Humans just distrust new things I guess. "
 
@BeachThunder said:
" @_152: Honestly, I think the only real solution is to wait for older generations to die out. It's the same with many other things from impressionism to rock 'n' roll. "
 
I think that it's probable that even if the average video game consumer goes on behaving the way the currently do other factors will be able tip the balance and we'll slowly see video games in general being more and more accepted as mainstream entertainment, that seems to have been the case with many entertainment mediums before now as you've pointed out. However, I believe the way many video game consumers behave is significantly slowing the process, and in general I think the way some consumers behave is anti-social, and that is a problem in itself which needs to be fixed.
 
@ryanwho said:
" There will always be smelly fat people who play videogames. Disassociate yourselves with the stereotypical culture and the stigma won't be on you. Try and defend that culture and you're part of it. "

Are we talking about defending a culture of lazy, anti-social people, or are we talking about defending gaming as a culture? If we're talking about the former then I'd say while nobody should be lazy or anti-social, trying to dissociate yourself with "fat people" shows a kind of discrimination against the obese. If we're talking about the latter then we're talking about displaying wilful ignorance and letting discriminatory stereotypes go unchallenged. Both of these sound like pretty selfish ideas to me.
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#11  Edited By WickedCestus

I completely agree. If people don't like that you play a lot of video games, then screw them. I never try to hide my love for video games, that's just dumb. That being said, I am pretty anti-social, but I'm sure that isn't because of games.

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#12  Edited By Deadlypixels

Fat, sweaty people who play video games get portrayed because those people are the loudest type of gamer, always complaining on the internet and yelling out random japanese words in order to get a laugh and talking about 6 types of anime at the same time. This is the media's way of saying to them: "Stop it. Stop this nonsense right now."

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#13  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@Chavtheworld said:
" @extremeradical said:

" I'd rather have a world where video games are misunderstood than one where people watch other people play StarCraft as if it were a legitimate sport. With few exceptions, video games are all really boring to watch. StarCraft II, in my opinion, especially. "

eSport =/= Sport. The only reason for sport being in the phrase is to represent the fact it is competitive, and requires skill to be good at. Personally, I find eSports fantastically entertaining to watch, Starcraft II, especially. eSports becoming big in Europe/USA will only be a good thing, as there are plenty of people out there who will watch it and it will certainly generate money. The more people accept games the better in my opinion.  "
I completely agree. The way I see it sports are physical competitions, while e-sports are mental competitions. At least as far as the two can be separated from each other.
 
@Icemael said:
" @ryanwho said:
" There will always be smelly fat people who play videogames. Disassociate yourselves with the stereotypical culture and the stigma won't be on you. Try and defend that culture and you're part of it. "
Pretty much this. People don't stigmatize gamers -- people stigmatize fat, sweaty and/or socially awkward gamers. "
The problem is I believe people do stigmatise "gamers". I believe the weekend of watching sports/weekend of playing games analogy I gave rings true, and I don't think western culture is free of certain stereotypes.
 
@ProfessorEss said:
" I feel ya 152, but personally, I'm in no rush. "
Fair enough. Oh, and whether intentional or not I liked the way you cut out the "gamer" part of my name.
 
@supermike6 said:
" I completely agree. If people don't like that you play a lot of video games, then screw them. I never try to hide my love for video games, that's just dumb. That being said, I am pretty anti-social, but I'm sure that isn't because of games. "
I'm the same. I make no qualms about how much I like games or that I'm a games programming student. I'm rather unique and I consider myself somewhat socially awkward but I'm always polite to people and I don't think that any social discomforts I may have are the result of the hobbies I enjoy. In fact my love of video games has actually given me a lot of common ground with other people which I wouldn't otherwise have had.
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#14  Edited By Claude

Video games are for kids is the mindset I would like to disappear. That's what gets people up in arms and governments involved, you know, to protect the children. After that, maybe we could get some more mature titles instead of just shooting people in the face being considered mature.

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#15  Edited By FunExplosions

Your thread title boasts quite the claim. I will now read it.

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#16  Edited By Icemael
@Gamer_152 said:
" @Icemael said:
" @ryanwho said:
" There will always be smelly fat people who play videogames. Disassociate yourselves with the stereotypical culture and the stigma won't be on you. Try and defend that culture and you're part of it. "
Pretty much this. People don't stigmatize gamers -- people stigmatize fat, sweaty and/or socially awkward gamers. "
The problem is I believe people do stigmatise "gamers". I believe the weekend of watching sports/weekend of playing games analogy I gave rings true, and I don't think western culture is free of certain stereotypes. "
I don't think it does. People don't take notice when I (or other non-stereotypical gamers) say I've spent a weekend playing video games. If a 200kg snarky asshole said he spent a weekend gaming, however, even I, who have done just that many times, would feel disgust.

It's not so much about the activity gaming as it is about fat, annoying geeks sitting on their fat asses, accumulating more fat as they powerlevel their Orc Magicians or Warlocks or whatever in some shitty fantasy MMO.
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#17  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@Deadlypixels said:
" Fat, sweaty people who play video games get portrayed because those people are the loudest type of gamer, always complaining on the internet and yelling out random japanese words in order to get a laugh and talking about 6 types of anime at the same time. This is the media's way of saying to them: "Stop it. Stop this nonsense right now." "
I think there are certainly less well-kempt games consumers, games consumers who are loud and obnoxious, and games consumers who are into anime, but I think that these are three separate groups of people. Honestly, I don't believe the mass media is even in touch enough with anime fans to tell them to knock anything off, and I don't think it's really about mass media try to dissuade a certain type of behaviour. I believe the media are simply reflecting the general public's opinion of video games and the people who play them.
 
@Claude said:
" Video games are for kids is the mindset I would like to disappear. That's what gets people up in arms and governments involved, you know, to protect the children. After that, maybe we could get some more mature titles instead of just shooting people in the face being considered mature. "
I think the evolution of mature issues in games beyond the depiction of violence, and the way video games seen in the public eye are two separate issues. However, I completely agree that the "games are for kids" stigma surrounding video games is one of the worst. It seems like every time there is a controversy surrounding a video game people deemed knowledgeable enough to speak about the issue in the media are often ignorant enough to jump to conclusions that scenes like 'No Russian' or the Mass Effect romance scenes are being aimed at kids. This is the 21st century!
 
@FunExplosions said:
" Your thread title boasts quite the claim. I will now read it. "
I hope you enjoy it. All constructive feedback is appreciated.
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#18  Edited By Arbie

Good post. Although I don't care for a world where everyone plays video games, I think the stigma you speak of is already dissolving. As much as everyone hates on the Wii I think that console has done a lot to help gamers break away from this image they are so often lumped in with.

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#19  Edited By vidiot

Great blog. This get's vidiot's seal of awesome.
 
I had an issue the other day when someone asked what I was shooting for in college. I felt like I had to verbally prepare them before I said that I was shooting for a degree that had something to do with the game's industry.
Personally, I use the term "gaming enthusiast" in social situations. In my experience the stigma has been generational for the most part, which is what makes the recent Law and Order episode even more silly. 

By "misunderstood", do you mean that the MW2 airport scene was an exercise in random gratuitous violence in order to get more press, and it's own " controversies" page on wikipedia? Or an exercise in controversy, for the sake of controversy...so it can get it's own " controversies" page on wikipedia?
Please don't tell me you thought there is something constructive, or remotely intelligent that's on display in that scene. You seem too smart. :P
 
@Erzs said:

"As much as everyone hates on the Wii I think that console has done a lot to help gamers break away from this image they are so often lumped in with. "
Yes, and no. 
We would have to look at perhaps data that shows how non-core gamers, and how much they continually use the Wii. There's probably a chart out there proving that you're right. 
I would imagine that it's one thing to appeal to outside the core audience, and it's another thing for that audience to then stick with you.
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FunExplosions

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#20  Edited By FunExplosions
@Gamer_152 said:
"
@FunExplosions said:
" Your thread title boasts quite the claim. I will now read it. "
I hope you enjoy it. All constructive feedback is appreciated. "
I gotta admit, I forgot to read it until I saw your reply. But now I'm glad I did. It's an intelligently written article. I agree with most of what you're saying. 
 
I got a few problems, though. I, myself, am one of the people you mentioned. I'm going to school for the same thing you are, though I tell people I'm studying Computer Science, rather than video games. I can pick up the ladies (that's not saying I can keep the ladies) and hold an intelligent conversation outside of video games. 
 
The problem is that I fucking hate the word "gamer," even before I read that Yahtzee article. I view "gamers" as the friend we all had in high school who only played WoW or Gears of War or Halo, and he played them non-fucking-stop. He drank Monster, he failed his courses, and he usually was a horrible human being and nothing but a cancer to society. Those people are out there. And they need a name. As long as they are wasting countless hours of their lives doing nothing at all, portraying this horrible image, and as long as the activity they're engaged in still only has one all-encompassing name, then they should get it. Give us another name. 
 
There's the problem, though. It's so hard to find the right names. The names have to be short. They have to be flexible (gamer, gaming, game), and they can't demean the group they're associated with, otherwise the term won't truly be accepted. I'd like to call gamers "scabs" or "grease-gamers," but I doubt they'd also like that. How about calling the hardcore Starcrafters in Korea "V-Leaguers?" How about calling game-programmers "IE Programmers," or "Interactive Entertainment" programmers? 
 
Alright, say we've chosen said names. How do we get these things spreading around? I recommend using the terms as much as possible. Like you said, don't use the word "gamer" in a bad way if you can (in my opinion, don't use the word at all). Sooner or later, they will spread, like "hella," like "wicked," like "way," and like any other meme. But that's just stage 1. Many memes can get passed around and thrown away without mainstream society even noticing. It's going to take dedication from distinguished and professional individuals to get the name "IE Programmer" to replace "I make video games" in every-day conversations. 
 
But that's where my 20 year-old brain melts down. I don't have any other tips to give. All I can do is sit here. I for one, after coming up with this just now, will be using "IE Programmer" the next time I'm asked what it is that I go to school for. Oh, and I'll still think of "gamers" as sweaty young adults spouting racist stereotypes, getting fired from every job they've had, and basically creating a black hole of depression everywhere they go. 
 
 
Clarity: I'm on a coffee high. I'm pretty sure the point I'm trying to make - changed - half-way through this, but yeah. Thoughts?
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#21  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@Icemael:  We may have to agree to disagree on how we think video games are viewed in the eyes of the general public. Like I say I'm convinced there is still a certain stigma attached to them. Your post did seem somewhat discriminatory towards the obese though. Surely if someone is overweight and plays video games as much as you do the only difference is a lifestyle and health choice they've made which they had every right to make.
 
@Erzs said:
" Good post. Although I don't care for a world where everyone plays video games, I think the stigma you speak of is already dissolving. As much as everyone hates on the Wii I think that console has done a lot to help gamers break away from this image they are so often lumped in with. "
Thank you. Nintendo undoubtedly did ground-breaking stuff in getting video games out into the mainstream but they largely did what they did through inventing a whole new breed of game that was still very different from traditional games. While motion control has pushed things so far I feel there's still a wall to be broken down between "casual" and "core" consumers, and only once we break through that will the stigma truly be gone.
 
@vidiot said:
" Great blog. This get's vidiot's seal of awesome.
 
I had an issue the other day when someone asked what I was shooting for in college. I felt like I had to verbally prepare them before I said that I was shooting for a degree that had something to do with the game's industry.
Personally, I use the term "gaming enthusiast" in social situations. In my experience the stigma has been generational for the most part, which is what makes the recent Law and Order episode even more silly. 

By "misunderstood", do you mean that the MW2 airport scene was an exercise in random gratuitous violence in order to get more press, and it's own " controversies" page on wikipedia? Or an exercise in controversy, for the sake of controversy...so it can get it's own " controversies" page on wikipedia?
Please don't tell me you thought there is something constructive, or remotely intelligent that's on display in that scene. You seem too smart. :P
Thank you very much. When I was saying that the 'No Russian' massacre was misunderstood I meant that what the game was presenting was a scene that was supposed to be deliberately shocking and have an emotional impact on the player, whereas what much of the media perceived it was presenting was a scene rewarding the player for committing terrorism, a scene of gratuitous violence that could be or was meant to be consumed by children, and a scene which had the ability to encourage violent activity and possibly even terrorist acts in otherwise mentally stable individuals. 'No Russian', while potentially very shocking, was none of these things and I think the reaction to it was reflective of the ignorance certain individuals and media outlets still hold towards video games.
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OppressiveStink

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#22  Edited By OppressiveStink
@Gamer_152: 
I honestly think esports are an abomination, while the concept on paper is interesting enough, I just don't think playing a video game "professionally" leads to anything constructive for the genre or medium. What it leads to, in my opinion,  is stagnation.  
 
Take a look at your own example, Korea latched on to Starcraft as a sport.  For a decade, an entire decade, a country latched on to an old-ass game while the rest of the world invested in new experiences.  What did that do for video games?  Nothing but allowed blizzard to essentially make Starcraft again, but with new units.
 
If you want to remove that stigma of "Fat, sweaty, gamer." Then it's just time to grow up and not give one fuck about what people think of your past time.  Don't pussyfoot around it.  If someone asks, say "yeah, I play video games."  Video games are starting to lose that stigma simply because there's enough visibility of people who really do like games just not giving a fuck.   
 
That guy from Friends loves video games, don't give one fuck what people think.  Dude went on ELLEN and told motherfuckers he likes video games.  Ice T, Ice Cube, Robin Williams are also a few people who don't give a fuck.  And that's how you beak your stigma.  Act like an adult about it.
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#23  Edited By Arbie
@Gamer_152:  In that case I think we should look at the fact a lot of gamers are in relationships. Even if a guy plays a game for an hour whilst the girl is there I think a non-gaming female may see this as being hardcore and obviously she will find her boyfriend attractive so I guess that might help a little too!
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#24  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@FunExplosions: Firstly, thank you. Secondly, you certainly think of "gamers" differently than I do and as I perceive it differently to most video game consumers out there. I think we're in agreement about the phasing out of the word "gamer", but as much as I want to push that idea, pushing a replacement for the word seems like a nigh on impossible task. I think we could sit here and brainstorm replacements for the word all day and it's conceivable that we'd come up with something decent but getting it out there is a whole other issue. I have thought about this rather extensively and currently I have no better solution than just using the term as much as possible. 
 
Rather than coming up with a new term though, I've been instead using existing terms, as I think they are much more likely to catch on because people already know them. I won't say "gamer", I'll say "video game enthusiast", "video game consumer" or "player of video games". Arguably I think creating a new term anyway is only setting yourself up for failure. After the "casual" gaming revolution look at how fast use of the phrase "hardcore" or "core" spread, and then look at what it came to mean. I think if we need a collective name for those who play games it's better for it to be a formal name and not some manufactured phrase that could too quickly be turned into a label. This is just off the top of my head though, I may have to go away and think about this for a while.
 
@OppresiveStink: I think comparing Korea and the west doesn't have a huge amount of validity. I believe even without the presence of Starcraft as such a prominent part of gaming for them, they'd still have a very different kind of gaming culture. While, to an extent, I appreciate e-sports as a form of entertainment in itself, think about it. If video games could become as big as even the minor sporting events out there they'd garner a massive amount of attention in the public eye, getting more people interested in video games and breaking down the idea that "gamers" are people to be looked down upon.
 
I agree with you though that everyone being open about their appreciation for video games is the right way to go. I think shoving it in peoples' faces has the potential to do more bad than good but as I said in my post if everyone was honest about their gaming habits I think more people would see that the large majority of "gamers" are just normal people.
 
@Erzs: I'm a little wary of taking that point of view as drawing attention to the fact that many games enthusiasts are in relationships makes it seem like an exceptional thing within video game culture, and therefore perpetuates the old stereotype that video game enthusiasts don't have any luck with the opposite sex. As I said to Oppressive I think if people are just open and honest about their gaming habits, people will be shown that "gamers" are the same as anyone else.
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Icemael

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#25  Edited By Icemael
@Gamer_152 said:
" @Icemael:  We may have to agree to disagree on how we think video games are viewed in the eyes of the general public. Like I say I'm convinced there is still a certain stigma attached to them. Your post did seem somewhat discriminatory towards the obese though. Surely if someone is overweight and plays video games as much as you do the only difference is a lifestyle and health choice they've made which they had every right to make. "
People have the right to be fat. People have the right to be gay or believe in God, too. That doesn't mean I have to like it.
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#26  Edited By Aetheldod

Im a fat sweety lazy no good for nuthin gamer / anime lover / black metal fanatic / comic reader  with pride of them all (except the lazy thing) .... but ... but Im a nice guy too  , really :'( 
Another note ,  must of the people that ad infinitum bodered with the "games rot you brain  ,etc" are now gamers or accept them now  , and I did nothing to change that ... nor care to convert people , if they want to , welcome if not , ehhh why should I care

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#27  Edited By HandsomeDead

Games companies should try making some good games that don't consistently perpetuate the power fantasy stereotype that has kept comic books in the cultural gutter.

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#28  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@Icemael said:
" @Gamer_152 said:
" @Icemael:  We may have to agree to disagree on how we think video games are viewed in the eyes of the general public. Like I say I'm convinced there is still a certain stigma attached to them. Your post did seem somewhat discriminatory towards the obese though. Surely if someone is overweight and plays video games as much as you do the only difference is a lifestyle and health choice they've made which they had every right to make. "
People have the right to be fat. People have the right to be gay or believe in God, too. That doesn't mean I have to like it. "
I hate to say it Icemael but if you don't like someone simply based on their weight or sexuality that's discrimination.
 
@Aetheldod said:
" Im a fat sweety lazy no good for nuthin gamer / anime lover / black metal fanatic / comic reader  with pride of them all (except the lazy thing) .... but ... but Im a nice guy too  , really :'(  Another note ,  must of the people that ad infinitum bodered with the "games rot you brain  ,etc" are now gamers or accept them now  , and I did nothing to change that ... nor care to convert people , if they want to , welcome if not , ehhh why should I care "
You seem like a nice guy Aetheldod and I'm certainly not here to demonise people with a certain lifestyle, I'm just here to tell people what I think is being done to break down stereotypes surrounding gamers as a whole and what can be done by each of us individually. While some of the "games rot your brain" crowd have been won over by the world of motion controls, I think there are too many people still out there with that view, and definitely plenty of people with other less than complimentary views. As I put in the final paragraph though, this is all down to whether people do want to push this thing forward or not.
 
@HandsomeDead said:
" Games companies should try making some good games that don't consistently perpetuate the power fantasy stereotype that has kept comic books in the cultural gutter. "
While it would be great to see more games doing that I think there are much bigger things they could do to remove the stigma. The media and the general public are completely out of touch with the "core" games and whenever one of these controversies hits the media it becomes apparent that there are a considerable number of people with no idea what's going on in the games industry at all, many people out there think games are all children's toys. Even if the industry did manage to change things around to a less power fantasy-filled world do you think the average person would really be aware of this narrative shift in the video games industry or grasp what it actually means? Similarly, I think even if comic books were able to break free of their power fantasy trip, people would still have a fundamental problem consuming them as an art form. I believe it's not what happens within the industry but what messages we can push outside the industry that really makes a difference.
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#29  Edited By KimChi4U

I think, we, as gamers, don't do ourselves any favors when we talk about our hobbies. I've gotten a lot of people to show a little more respect to my adventures in gaming by not using the word "game." Instead, I tell people exactly what I'm doing when I choose to pick up a controller. 
 
A discussion I had had with professors whom I teach conversational English: 
 
A: Kimchi, what did you do last weekend? 
Me: Well, I got involved in a very interesting story about a man who seeks to atone for his past crimes by hunting down members of his old gang in order to save his family. The story takes place in the Western US during the turn of the twentieth century. The main character is a rough and rugged cowboy type who seems reluctant to accept new technology. Of course, there are some great gunfights and the character must do some unsavory things in order to redeem himself. 
A: What's the name of this book? It sounds interesting. 
Me: Oh. It's not a book. It's a video game. Let's discuss the setting of this game. What do you know about America during the turn of the twentieth century? How about we talk about the idea of redemption? Do you think after killing a man, or in the case of this man, killing many men, it is possible to find redemption? 
 
And so on and so forth. 
 
These same professors pointed out last week that a middle school student in Seoul killed his mother and then killed himself. They pointed out that the news suggested that he played a lot of violent video games and killed his mom when she cut off his internet access at home. I pointed out that they should then quit my class because I play a lot of violent video games and I might jump across the table and strangle them.  
 
 People get very worked up about things they don't know about and jump to conclusions. As with everything in life, if you can point out something that people can relate to in a intelligent way, people can and do change their mind about things. 
 
Unfortunately, a lot of our brethren don't help our cause by acting like spoiled children on the internet.

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Icemael

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#30  Edited By Icemael
@Gamer_152 said:

" @Icemael said:

" @Gamer_152 said:
" @Icemael:  We may have to agree to disagree on how we think video games are viewed in the eyes of the general public. Like I say I'm convinced there is still a certain stigma attached to them. Your post did seem somewhat discriminatory towards the obese though. Surely if someone is overweight and plays video games as much as you do the only difference is a lifestyle and health choice they've made which they had every right to make. "
People have the right to be fat. People have the right to be gay or believe in God, too. That doesn't mean I have to like it. "
I hate to say it Icemael but if you don't like someone simply based on their weight or sexuality that's discrimination. "
I never said I don't like fat, gay or religious people. I said I don't like fatness, gayness and belief in God. Those are traits people can have -- but people have many traits, and everyone has some bad ones. It's only when the bad outweigh the good that I don't like someone.

And by the way: discrimination is in our nature. It's called having preferences.
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#31  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@KimChi4U: I completely agree that the way a lot of games enthusiasts act when discussing video games does bad things for the image of traditional games consumers. I loved the story of you and your professor, and it's a shame to hear that even people in such a learned position as them could have such grave misconceptions about video games. People need to be educated about the truth of the matter.
 
@Icemael: I hear what you're saying Icemael but I suppose my issue is specifically about you seeing things like homosexually as negative. In my mind that's not right.
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#32  Edited By wubb

I do think there should be more competitive videogame tournament coverage on TV.  Are there any shows currently that showcase top gameplay?  
 
As far as any stigma, I think that is going to fade with time.  Someone who is 50+ grew up with shitty (or no) video games, so they are more likely to have a view of video games being just for kids.  People in their 20-30s grew up with Nintendo on up and I think they'll maintain the attitude that video games are a hobby for all ages whether or not it is their personal thing.  Just my opinion.

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#33  Edited By Caegn

As much as I hate to admit it, I don't really blame my parents generation for viewing games negatively.  Let's face it, growing up me and my friends left many a lawn unmowed, many a household chore undone, and a whole lot of homework unfinished in the name of our gaming hobbies.  Not a good way to make our parents see gaming in all that positive a light.  Instead of gaming on the side while still being constructive, we gamed at the cost of being constructive.  And I'm pretty sure we weren't the only ones.  Things are different for me now, and I make sure to take care of the things I have to take care of before picking up a controller in my spare time.  (You know, trying to be responsible and productive and all.  Maybe not worry the family too much that I'm going to end up living in a dumpster or whatnot.)  And that's probably the best way to go about getting the people around you to accept games.  Loudly and frequently proclaiming that "gaming is my life"...  not so much.

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#34  Edited By owl_of_minerva

Excellent blog post, sir. I think the problem is that people don't understand that games are a simulation, which lends itself to moralising judgments based on the assumption that games are a representational medium. That's one key problem, a basic distinction that is lost on know-nothing moralisers. 
On the other hand, they may know without knowing that games are a simulation, because all they see is button-pressing which is unproductive and in some cases detrimental. I guess this also lends itself to moralising judgments about the relative value of playing games as a hobby. There are other issues with the kinds of gaming subcultues that have emerged on the internet, particularly juvenile snark and trolling, which also contributes to an image problem.
I suspect the core issue will simply be until people understand better what simulation is about, and why it is of value as entertainment and an artform, that it will be one without widespread acceptance. And once it moves out of the 'ghetto', it might not be for the best. Established forms can also become rote and boring.

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#35  Edited By ryanwho
@HandsomeDead said:
" Games companies should try making some good games that don't consistently perpetuate the power fantasy stereotype that has kept comic books in the cultural gutter. "
Luckily games broke through that ceiling with band games and the Wii and pet games and such. You know, the games girls and women can play that many boys don't consider real games on account of their fear of girls and women. Games are slowing climbing that slope where the genre as a whole isn't stigmatized so much as individual IPs and subgenres within. Instead of going "that highschool is full of bitches" people are beginning to go "there are the nerds, there are the jocks, there are the beauty queen bitches, etc." Gaming is kind of an extension to internet culture as a whole so it neccesarily becomes something not generally stigmatized.  Those stigmas instead latch themselves onto specific IPs and probably become even stronger. Your WoW player, for example, will probably always have that stigma. Internet culture and game culture meet where people want to reinvent themselves and live in an echochamber of their own design, comics meanwhile are off to the side.
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Icemael

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#36  Edited By Icemael
@Gamer_152 said:
" @Icemael: I hear what you're saying Icemael but I suppose my issue is specifically about you seeing things like homosexually as negative. In my mind that's not right. "
Would you feel more comfortable if I instead said I didn't like furryphilia, or pedophilia, or love of getting fisted up the ass?
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#37  Edited By audiosnag

Great blog an I agree with a lot of what you said.
I've said it before I look forward to the day I can go to the bar with some friends an have beer and wings while watching the GSL finals.

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#38  Edited By melcene

Video Games are part of the mainstream culture in America these days.   
 
As for this whole idea of e-sports...  I don't think Americans particularly care to leave the comfort of their homes, nor leave THEIR enjoyment of a particular game, to sit around a Stadium and cheer on someone else playing the same game they could be at home playing. 

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#39  Edited By TheDukeofArgyll

The majority of people think video games are Call of Duty and Rock Band and that if you played Wii bowling you are a gamer, and that is the way I like it.  It makes being pretentious a lot easier.

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#40  Edited By ape_dosmil

I think it will be a generational thing. Video games become more and more mainstream with each generation. It is quite normal now for lawyers, accountants, teachers etc. under the age of 40 to play video games in their spare time. That age is only going to get higher. It's not something which worries me to be honest.
 
I dont think 'e-sports' are the way forward though, frankly I think the whole concept reinforces people's negative perceptions of video games, ie. that kids are playing video games instead of playing outside and keeping active and fit participating in sports. Video game competitions are not sports, not under any definition of the word. I've no problem with StarCraft leagues and I've found the Giant Bomb coverage fascinating, even though I have no interest in multiplayer StarCraft. But I think it is silly to market it as a sport, rather it should be compared to competitive chess or other such games. Frankly as a spectator event, it is never going to be mainstream though, for the majority of people, myself included, watching other people play video games is just not that interesting.

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#41  Edited By hinderk

Great read! 

 When you discuss video games with people act like a normal, polite human being, “It’s just the internet” is not an excuse for insulting or immature behaviour.    

I especially agree with this. I've never understood why so many people here and on other gaming sites feel the need to insult anyone they disagree with. 
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#42  Edited By shivermetimbers

There was no artistic reason to put No Russian in the game. They could've easily made it a news report/cutscene. Same thing goes for EA and putting Taliban into multiplayer. If we want to be respected as a medium, we have to save our graphic realistic violence for something important. It doesn't take a scientist to figure out No Russian would cause controversy. Arguing that they did it to show the player how serious violence can be has their point taken away when the next sequence involves killing people with a pistol on motorbikes.  

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#43  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@wubb:  I see what you're saying and you're not the only person to have made this comment. As I said to the other guys it's probably going to be the case that the stigma will fade over time but I believe the way many video game consumers behave is significantly slowing the process, and in general I think the way some consumers behave is anti-social, and that is a problem in itself which needs to be fixed. As for where you can find professional video game gameplay analysis on the TV I have no idea, however if Starcraft is your thing you can watch GSL 3 via live web streams and Starcraft commentator Day[9] does some fantastic gameplay analysis on YouTube and uStream.
 
@Caegn: I think to an extent people ignorant about video games are a little to blame themselves, but you're right, it's not surprising that with current influences in the world people treat them the way they do. I don't think peoples children using video games to laze about is a fundamental part of what has given video games the stigma they've got though. I believe there are far more influential factors.
 
@owl_of_minerva: Thank you. In terms of people looking down on video games for their violent content I think the problem is a little less to do with a lack of understanding that games are simulation, and more a lack of understanding that just because there's an interactive element and the games may reward violent behaviour, doesn't mean they have anywhere near the power to encourage a mentally stable person who is playing an age-appropriate game to commit immoral acts. I tweeted not too long ago that it's a shame that those who most often call for censorship seem to be those who understand least where it is necessary. Despite a lack of knowledge or impirical evidence these "moral guardians" still persist to push an archaic view of video games as an entertainment medium.
 
I don't think that it not being on the whole a physically active hobby and that to some it may be of questionable value, is not a barrier in itself to video games being accepted as an entertainment medium. It's only as physically active and valuable as watching TV and movies, and those are perhaps the most widely accepted hobbies out there. I also think that video games are much more than just simulations, they are exactly as the name suggests, "games", and I don't think it's just about people being able to see simulation as an entertainment medium, but rather people being able to see gameplay as part of an entertainment medium. I think one of the problems we currently have is that you can look at and listen to a game all you want, until people actually play it there's no way they'll know what the "game" aspect of it is actually like. 
 
We're certainly in agreement though that if games hit the mainstream in an even bigger way than they already have we're going to see change, and that many game enthusiasts on the internet do not help the medium's image.
 
@Icemael: I'm not making any qualms about what you do or don't like, I'm simply trying to say that you judging people on certain specific traits or lifestyle choices is something I perceive as immoral.
 
@ryanwho: Have they broken through that ceiling though? Sure we have motion control games and we have the genres that aren't all about power fantasies, but there were always genres which weren't about power fantasies. Unless the popular "core games" can free themselves of the whole power fantasy complex I don't think it's fair to say they've broken that ceiling.
 
@audiosnag: Thank you. As far as e-sports as a competitive art go it's arguable that they'll never be as big as mainstream sports, and I think Starcraft specifically is probably not the game for the west. Starcraft is about in-depth strategy, tactics, and involves a lot of thinking. I believe the west is likely to specifically go for more palatable e-sports such as FPS games. I'd love to see them prove me wrong though.
 
@melcene: I believe video games intersect mainstream culture but are not necessarily a big part of it. There's a multitude of reasons why video games aren't anywhere near as big a part of mainstream entertianment as something like TV or movies, that are nothing to do with the nature or quality of the games themselves. As far as what you're saying about e-sports the massive majority of competitive entertainment is already consumed by people in their homes watching TV, Americans wouldn't actually have to go anywhere to enjoy e-sports. It must also be remembered that playing a game and watching a game are two very different activities.
 
@TheDukeofArgyll: I have to confess I didn't quite understand your post. If people perceive "core games" as games, but perceive anyone playing a game as a "gamer", then what do you think are the general public's definitions of these terms?
 
@ape_dosmil: I agree that I don't think e-sports are ever going to be as big as major sports, but I don't think they're really enforcing negative video game stereotypes any more than anything else that creates an awareness of video games. In fact I'm sure that the average westerner doesn't know a thing about e-sports. I think the way that e-sports are being presented in much the same way as sports is due to the fact that sports are really the only other competitive medium out there to base presentation on, presenting e-sports in the same way as sports is going to attract people familiar with traditional sports, and perhaps most prominently there is going to be an overlap between the two entertainment mediums anyway due to them both being entertainment mediums centred around competition.
 
@hinderk: Thanks. I think of all the points I made that might be the one I consider the most important.
 
@shivermetimbers: I never meant to give the impression that I thought No Russian was meant to show how serious violence is, I believe the scene was in there purely to be shocking and personally I thought it was a good scene, and they had reason to put it in there. Whether you agree about the quality of the scene or not, do you really think it would have been better as a cutscene though? While a cutscene provides a more guided and scripted sequence for the player, the use of cutscenes can cause a disconnect between narrative and gameplay. Games like Half-Life have shown that players feel more immersed in the experience when the narrative is happening around them, as opposed to just being played to them in a movie. I don't think there was any need for the No Russian scene to be a cinematic.
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#44  Edited By shivermetimbers
@Gamer_152:
The argument that the game would be more immersive because the player would be able to commit acts of violents to show how shocking it would be killing innocent civilians is void to me for two reasons. Unlike Half Life 2, the game's story is told through mission briefings with a satelite view of the world in the background. The second reason is the fact that I can't kill civilans anywhere else in the game without being punished. 
 
I'm trying to say that shock value for the sake of shock value isn't reason enough to include a sequence like that. It was the event that sparked off a great war, sure, but the game is made more as a Michael Bay movie than anything resembling inportant educational or artistic value.
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#45  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@shivermetimbers said:
" @Gamer_152: The argument that the game would be more immersive because the player would be able to commit acts of violents to show how shocking it would be killing innocent civilians is void to me for two reasons. Unlike Half Life 2, the game's story is told through mission briefings with a satelite view of the world in the background. The second reason is the fact that I can't kill civilans anywhere else in the game without being punished. "
I'm not saying it would be more immersive because the player was committing the acts of violence, nor do I think the scene is really about the player committing the act of violence himself. In fact the scene wasn't just about basic visceral shock either, it was also about standing back and having to let evil be done for the greater good. I believe the sense of immersion came not from the player necessarily participating in the killings in that scene, but rather from the player viewing that scene in the same sense that they would have any other in-game event, and I believe that's where the parallel between that scene and a game like HL2 lies. Also I don't understand what baring the satellite view cutscenes or the fact you can't kill civilians again have on the validity of the No Russian scene. Why do those things being in the game mean No Russian should have been a cutscene?
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#46  Edited By Icemael
@Gamer_152 said:

" @Icemael: I'm not making any qualms about what you do or don't like, I'm simply trying to say that you judging people on certain specific traits or lifestyle choices is something I perceive as immoral.  "

So what am I supposed to judge people on? How pretty their names are? And are you not, right now, judging me on "certain specific traits and lifestyle choices" by saying that what I'm doing is immoral? Doesn't that make you immoral? And what do you mean by "immoral"? In what way exactly is it inferior to what is moral?
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#47  Edited By Pinworm45
@shivermetimbers said:
" There was no artistic reason to put No Russian in the game. They could've easily made it a news report/cutscene. Same thing goes for EA and putting Taliban into multiplayer. If we want to be respected as a medium, we have to save our graphic realistic violence for something important. It doesn't take a scientist to figure out No Russian would cause controversy. Arguing that they did it to show the player how serious violence can be has their point taken away when the next sequence involves killing people with a pistol on motorbikes.   "
You can't just say something had no artistic merit because it offended you.
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#48  Edited By shivermetimbers
@Pinworm45 said:
" @shivermetimbers said:
" There was no artistic reason to put No Russian in the game. They could've easily made it a news report/cutscene. Same thing goes for EA and putting Taliban into multiplayer. If we want to be respected as a medium, we have to save our graphic realistic violence for something important. It doesn't take a scientist to figure out No Russian would cause controversy. Arguing that they did it to show the player how serious violence can be has their point taken away when the next sequence involves killing people with a pistol on motorbikes.   "
You can't just say something had no artistic merit because it offended you. "

It didn't offend me, it just isn't consistant. If your going to be dark just for one scene and be cartoonishly over the top in the rest of the game, you aren't consistant. It doesn't even go the David Lynch route of making you feel content and then shocking you, it just shocks you for one scene and then it's back to cartoonish. @ The OP, I don't think the sequence was bad, I just think you're giving it too much credit. It's not the direction games should be taking.
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#49  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator
@Icemael said:
" @Gamer_152 said:

" @Icemael: I'm not making any qualms about what you do or don't like, I'm simply trying to say that you judging people on certain specific traits or lifestyle choices is something I perceive as immoral.  "

So what am I supposed to judge people on? How pretty their names are? And are you not, right now, judging me on "certain specific traits and lifestyle choices" by saying that what I'm doing is immoral? Doesn't that make you immoral? And what do you mean by "immoral"? In what way exactly is it inferior to what is moral? "
What I mean is that judging in general isn't necessarily bad but seeing certain sexual orientations as bad, or looking down on an obese person for doing the exact same thing you might do just because they're obese is an unfair way of judging people. As for what I mean by immoral, well, what does anyone mean by immoral? I mean the opposite of moral. When I talk about immoral and moral I'm talking about bad and good for want of better terms. I didn't want this to turn into a big argument between us, and we obviously have different opinions on the matter, but this is just how I feel.
 
@shivermetimbers said:
" @Pinworm45 said:
" @shivermetimbers said:
" There was no artistic reason to put No Russian in the game. They could've easily made it a news report/cutscene. Same thing goes for EA and putting Taliban into multiplayer. If we want to be respected as a medium, we have to save our graphic realistic violence for something important. It doesn't take a scientist to figure out No Russian would cause controversy. Arguing that they did it to show the player how serious violence can be has their point taken away when the next sequence involves killing people with a pistol on motorbikes.   "
You can't just say something had no artistic merit because it offended you. "
It didn't offend me, it just isn't consistant. If your going to be dark just for one scene and be cartoonishly over the top in the rest of the game, you aren't consistant. It doesn't even go the David Lynch route of making you feel content and then shocking you, it just shocks you for one scene and then it's back to cartoonish. @ The OP, I don't think the sequence was bad, I just think you're giving it too much credit. It's not the direction games should be taking. "
Personally I didn't feel the game was cartoonish but the whole game was certainly over-the-top, it was like if Michael Bay made a video game, and the No Russian scene fitted with that in my opinion. I'm not saying No Russian is one of the best pieces of video games narrative out there but I thought it was an impacting scene, or perhaps would have been if it wasn't for all the media hype. In terms of how it focused the direction of the game even if you don't think it was consistent I do think it went in the right direction in terms of not being afraid to show something controversial even when so many are still actively attacking video games as an entertainment medium.
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#50  Edited By mikemcn

As I'm lulled into a trance by that gary video, the answer to this issue becomes so very clear.
 
We force everyone to play the top 3 games of every year since the original mario came out, PROBLEM SOLVED! Actually playing is the only way any of them will ever understand the hobby, and since most good games require a level of involvement beyond the average person's capacity, it will most likely never happen until games become so easy to play that they are everywhere. (Imagine a built in console on every single TV produced, or a computer that can play even the most advanced games ever made that fits in your pocket.)