The Uniform Breaks the Man

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ahoodedfigure

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Edited By ahoodedfigure

 
Philip Zimbardo stumbled upon a problem in human behavior that he wasn't quite expecting.  He'll put it better than I can (distracting sound effects notwithstanding):
 
 

 
 
Here he talks here about the Milgram Experiment, which many of us have probably heard of, and he talks about his own experiment that addressed similar issues.  He got a bunch of students who elected to take part in the program (who had already passed a basic test to see if they were mentally stable).  Some kids were then labeled as prisoners, and some kids were given uniforms and told to act like guards in a prison.  These volunteers were given a place to stay while the psychologists behind the test monitored everyone's behavior to see what would happen.  Go ahead and watch the video, if you haven't already, to see the results.
 
Thing is, even when we're thoroughly vetted, being given a symbol of authority changes us.  There are plenty of people who resist that change, but without a proper environment to encourage that self-control and professionalism, a lot of people succumb to the idea that they're better than others, and that those in their charge are sub-human.  As long as we're treated well by these people, we figure those who were treated poorly probably deserved it, but to quote one of Clint Eastwood's characters, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."  
 
It's about the distancing from others that well-meaning people get when they're put in an environment without solid laws, without checks and balances.  Obviously this problem is more destructive in some places than it is others, but the feeling is similar for those of us in any such community that is not properly guarded against abuse of power.  It causes stagnation, encourages rigid thinking, and gives rise to an US vs. THEM mentality which reinforces dehumanization and bullying.  
 
I'd like to think I'd be above that sort of behavior if I was given authority over others, but I can't be sure.  I've seen plenty of good people be both victims and aggressors in such situations.  It's best to always be vigilant, and that includes taking a long, hard look at yourself.
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ahoodedfigure

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#1  Edited By ahoodedfigure

 
Philip Zimbardo stumbled upon a problem in human behavior that he wasn't quite expecting.  He'll put it better than I can (distracting sound effects notwithstanding):
 
 

 
 
Here he talks here about the Milgram Experiment, which many of us have probably heard of, and he talks about his own experiment that addressed similar issues.  He got a bunch of students who elected to take part in the program (who had already passed a basic test to see if they were mentally stable).  Some kids were then labeled as prisoners, and some kids were given uniforms and told to act like guards in a prison.  These volunteers were given a place to stay while the psychologists behind the test monitored everyone's behavior to see what would happen.  Go ahead and watch the video, if you haven't already, to see the results.
 
Thing is, even when we're thoroughly vetted, being given a symbol of authority changes us.  There are plenty of people who resist that change, but without a proper environment to encourage that self-control and professionalism, a lot of people succumb to the idea that they're better than others, and that those in their charge are sub-human.  As long as we're treated well by these people, we figure those who were treated poorly probably deserved it, but to quote one of Clint Eastwood's characters, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."  
 
It's about the distancing from others that well-meaning people get when they're put in an environment without solid laws, without checks and balances.  Obviously this problem is more destructive in some places than it is others, but the feeling is similar for those of us in any such community that is not properly guarded against abuse of power.  It causes stagnation, encourages rigid thinking, and gives rise to an US vs. THEM mentality which reinforces dehumanization and bullying.  
 
I'd like to think I'd be above that sort of behavior if I was given authority over others, but I can't be sure.  I've seen plenty of good people be both victims and aggressors in such situations.  It's best to always be vigilant, and that includes taking a long, hard look at yourself.
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singular

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#2  Edited By singular

The question is: Are people corrupted by power because they grow up in a society which conditions them into beeing corruptable, or is the society itself what it is because people are the way they are?
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ahoodedfigure

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#3  Edited By ahoodedfigure
@SinGulaR: I'm guessing you'd fall into the latter category?  I think corruption is everywhere, but I also think that it can be minimalized through sensible structures.   I assume that you didn't get a chance to watch the video, from how quickly you responded, but I'll respond anyway.
 
I hear people sometimes say that a dictator would be better, for instance, because at least if the dictator happened to be good enough, they would get people to fall in line.  With democracies it's a lot messier, but at least we have the means to watch each other, and with the better models, we also have a way to bring down the power structure if it gets too out of hand without resorting to violence.    
 
I don't think simply saying that all human beings are bad holds water, though.  We have consciences.  Collectively, we often fall outside of what we consider to be good behavior, but as individuals we will sometimes make decisions that make this world better.  
 
Thousands to even hundreds of years ago, entire countries were full of people who believed that their leaders were there because an absolute good force put them there.  We still have certain groups that believe this, and this belief means that those in power were incapable of doing anything bad.  If you were in disagreement with the way things were going, you were de facto corrupt.  That's changed, by and large, and people are more skeptical.
 
That skepticism, I'd say, shows that people are capable of more change than you're giving them credit for.
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Red12b

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#4  Edited By Red12b

This is brilliant, I have always liked TED 
 
It is brilliant having these vid's,  
 
BTW I saw Demons first, 
 
EDIT: Bad subject matter, my post seems out of place, posted just after i saw the demon pic, should have waited until the video finished.
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#5  Edited By ahoodedfigure
@Red12b: No, you're fine.  I saw the demons first, too :)
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#6  Edited By Red12b
@ahoodedfigure:
Hmm just the right thing to see before i go to sleep,  
                                                                                                                                                    )(
TED talks are brilliant though, Dealing with a whole host of topics, for free too. (<>) (<>)
                                                                                                                                                 \_-_/ 
 
EDIT:#2  It's a dog hahaha 
 
EDIT#3 Oh god what have I become, it's too late, Need sleep, 2:30 AM
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singular

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#7  Edited By singular
@ahoodedfigure said:
" @SinGulaR: I'm guessing you'd fall into the latter category? " 
 
No absolutely not.  
 
 "I assume that you didn't get a chance to watch the video, from how quickly you responded, but I'll respond anyway."  
 
I didn't need to watch that video because I know what the experient is about. There even is a German movie about that topic called "Das Experiment".  

 "With democracies it's a lot messier, but at least we have the means to watch each other, and with the better models, we also have a way to bring down the power structure if it gets too out of hand without resorting to violence. "
 
So why is it neccesary to keep an eye on those in charge? Why would I be called naive if I said "Don't watch them, I'm sure they know what's best." Because we all know that negative behavior is part of everyone, just as is positive behavior. But we are not all willing to admit this.
      
"That skepticism, I'd say, shows that people are capable of more change than you're giving them credit for. " 
 
I don't think that people really had major sociological changes during the last 200 years. Intelectual yes. Technological very much too. But the way people interact with eachother on a social level is just the same as always since at least two centuries. If not longer. There is still racism, aristocracy, decadence, arrogance and vanity. There is still a minority which has a lot, and a majority which lives in poverty. People are still beeing deceived about reality by stories and myths about gods. And a great part of the population is unhappy. And if you ask them why they are, they tell you it's because they can't level themselves above others and/or earn their envy.
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ArbitraryWater

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#9  Edited By ArbitraryWater

Yep. This is exactly the kind of stuff I should sleep on. I actually read a book recently that touches on a lot of stuff that this guy talked about (although with the broader topic of how people are influenced to do or not do things, not necessarily good or evil things). 
 
It seems that the saying "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" is true. Even those who are capable of stopping injustice or other bad things usually don't. It's a sociological reflex to not get involved. What can humanity do about this? I don't know.

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ahoodedfigure

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#10  Edited By ahoodedfigure
  @SinGulaR: This conversation could go on forever, but here goes.  Not going to use the quote system because it's a bit of a mess.
 
Das Experiment was fiction, so I don't think it's as relevant as it could be.  
 
It's difficult to address specific points when you use rhetorical questions so often, but I will say that the way we interact has in some ways changed.  I think there's a self-awareness and an immediacy that at least some of us have that we didn't have before.  Mass media has an effect on that.  Notice how we seem to be changing our self-image every few years, instead of looking back over many decades or even centuries and calling them "eras." Granted, a lot of this silliness will fall away, but we seem overly distracted in trying to define ourselves, which leads to strange problems of lacking of wisdom
 
Sociologically we're also a bit more divorced from the specific religious doctrines that held us in more rigid behavioral norms, for good or ill.  And women and blacks who won the right to be counted as citizens would disagree with the assertion that nothing has changed for them, even if some still react to them in ways analogous to the traditional ways.
 
You could also look at the statistics, gathered by people like Hans Rosling, showing that while poverty is still massive, some of the basics of life are slowly creeping in to countries on the periphery, while other countries assumed to be part of the 1st world are lagging behind in some areas.   I'd argue that this isn't good enough, but it's significant.
 
But by categorizing things as separately intellectual, sociological, and technological, as though they were all isolated, it makes it difficult to talk about things in any meaningful way, in my opinion, because to me they're all connected.
 
To say that "human nature" has changed fundamentally and categorically would be a stretch; if you think I'm saying that I'm not.  But I would say that we're at a potential bridge moment between the past and the future.  To suggest we haven't changed at all as far as how we relate to each other doesn't seem to correlate with the developments we've made.  While our actual reactions perhaps haven't diversified in a significantly measurable way, the fact that we're able to meet many people more people through technology means we're more able to defeat in a few seconds basic assumptions we could have easily made about someone hundreds of years ago.  That has sociological impact.  
 
Perhaps the word sociological is the wrong word?  Perhaps we mean our inherent, individual nature? I'm fairly certain, again because of technology, that I'm a different person than I would have been had I been born before.  I'm able to instantly gratify my need for basic knowledge.  I don't need to put it off.  For someone like me, that's the difference between learning a thing and not learning a thing.  My human nature is AUGMENTED by the tools, the technology, that surrounds me.
 
I am also alive because of technology and the advances in medicine.  Without those advances I'd likely be a cripple, or dead.  While surviving damage to one's health is not necessarily new, it is now so much more ubiquitous.  So someone who could have disappeared from the earth is now able to share their experiences with someone in a different country, instantly.  
 
I was able to meet my significant other through this instant communication, someone who was from a different culture than me.  More people do this than before, because of the interconnectivity that technology brings us.  And medicine, again, helps us to understand the suffering that some people go through in ways that were baffling hundreds of years ago. While you could easily, easily describe our human reactions as not having changed (how abstract can we get, talking about racism, envy, malice, or other Platonic principles? Even if the way those attitudes are expressed has changed, you could still say they existed, even if the definition of the words themselves was no longer the same.) you could also say that the framework, formed by culture, technology, society, medicine, science, and ethics, in which those emotions still exist has been altered.
 
This brings me back to one of the central points I was making in the original post:  The framework in which a person exists matters.  Altering the framework alters how people within that framework relate to their environment.  They are still individuals, still make individual decisions, and the more aware they are of their own nature, the more able they are to create their own frameworks which matter specifically for them.  The experiments help us to realize some of our shortcomings as individuals, and as more experiments enlighten us in this way, it is not so much our nature that changes, but how we are AWARE of this nature.   Our actual nature may not change, but the way that nature is expressed DOES.
 
If we are aware of our nature, we are able to stop ourselves before we go down old paths, and we decrease the chance of repeating the mistakes of the past if we are able to compensate for our shortcomings.  If I'm able to overcome my prejudice against people who are different than me through the framework I've built around myself, I'd say that's pretty significant.  We could also argue over when such frameworks began, but my point is that they've proliferated substantially in the last few hundred years.  I at least get this sense that the arguably lesser parts of our nature are potentially in retreat.  It's up to us, of course, to make the best use of these developments.  We easily fall back into old habits, but the point is that there is a widespread opportunity for us not to that wasn't nearly as strong or common as it was before.
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ahoodedfigure

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#11  Edited By ahoodedfigure
@ArbitraryWater said:
" Yep. This is exactly the kind of stuff I should sleep on. I actually read a book recently that touches on a lot of stuff that this guy talked about (although with the broader topic of how people are influenced to do or not do things, not necessarily good or evil things).   It seems that the saying "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" is true. Even those who are capable of stopping injustice or other bad things usually don't. It's a sociological reflex to not get involved. What can humanity do about this? I don't know. "
Do you remember the title or author of that book?  There's one by Dan Ariely called predictably irrational, where large studies have shown that people's fundamental rationality can be altered, like I talked about at length in the previous post, by the framework in which they're presented.
 
I'm not sure if absolute power corrupts absolutely, but I'd say that it's a safe bet that it does.  Like, there could really be benevolent dictators out there who could make everything better for us, but they're not likely to get in a position of power, and even then, they may change over time.  Better to spread the power, and the blame, around, and just be aware of our own, darker tendencies to stop things from becoming a slippery slope.
 
I think the profit motive is strong in us, especially if society reinforces it.  So it becomes a matter of trying to figure out how to show people that long-term profit is a good thing too.  If you reduce injustice, when possible, it helps make society slowly a better place, because it reminds us that it's possible to reduce injustice in that instance.  Using DNA to help free the wrongly convicted springs to mind.
 
The bigger picture, though, yeah, I don't know either.  The best I can do is improve myself, since I'm more an authority on myself than anyone else.
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#12  Edited By Eurobum

Philip Zimbardo is a BS merchant, who takes ideas from mainly psychology and transfers it into what people want to hear, connects it to recent events then prints them in form of Bestsellers and sells it to the masses. Vice versa he takes popular simplifications like "Power currupts" and "Good and Evil" and then makes it sound like science.
 
He uses his background as a psychologist to succesfully market this garbage. Unfortunately he has no integrity or any regard for truth, in his persuit of Dollar$. 
  
When I've heard another of his talks - he was selling the book from the previous year back then - he actually made an interesting point. If you investigate his stuff critically however, there is far too much of: false assertions, value judgements and preaching, instead of proof, logical arguments and meticulous research. None of it is new or groundbreaking either.
 
There are no simple answers to difficult questions, no simple answers that are true anyway.  
 
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#13  Edited By singular

@ahoodedfigure I'm happy to read that you are capable of self-contemplation and that modern medicine saved your life. And that you found a girlfriend/wife over the Internet. I also know that the movie Das Experient is fiction. But it's premise is inspired by the Stanford-Experiment supervised by Robert Zimbardo. And yes, I have read about the Stanford-Experiment and know about it and it's results. The thing is: You, me and maybe alot of other people may be able to look at our selves and change what we don't like. But much more people in the world aren't. They blindly follow every ideology and every dogma that may or may not provide them an answer on how to live their life. The text you have written is very good and I must admit that it would have taken me at least half a day to write something on the same level in English. But it has one flaw. It's theory. And, friend, it does not correspond to what I have experienced throughout my life. I have met, and probably will met, alot of people who could easily have lived 200 years ago and still be, superficial differences aside, the same. And those are the majority. Sure, one is now able to educate himself more easily than back in 1700 or 1800, but who really does? You are an exception that proves the rule. The majority isn't interested in broadening their view on the world or hightening their self-awareness, most of the people just want to have a good job to earn a lot of money so they can buy themselves toys to make their contemporary envy them. Or to say it in a different way: They want power, the power to dictate their immediate surroundings. They need this to satisfy the basic instincts that are in all of us: the need for security, food and procreation. The more power you have to impose your will on the world, the more easy it is to satisfy those instincts. Some people like you or me, who for whatever reason can see beyond that can contemplate where those cravings come from and change what we don't like about our selves. But we are a minortiy. 
I also want to apologize for the case that this doen't meet your rethorical standards, but English isn't my native language and complex discussions are what they are: complex.
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ahoodedfigure

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#14  Edited By ahoodedfigure
@SinGulaR: I believe we're both on a theoretical level here, since you can't have met the majority of people on the planet.  Your worldview is shaped by the media you take in, and your cynicism is how you deal with the horror we inflict on ourselves.  My optimism, what I see in the people _I_ have met, is mine.  Perhaps it's how we interact with people, perhaps it's what we choose to see, but I don't see your outlook as different than mine in its incompleteness. 
 
I would also say that the will to power you talk about has many different forms.  We often, as Western society, like to prattle on about humans wanting to empower themselves and control their environment, but we often forget that alliances and friendships are a form of power, in that they build security and safety. 
 
I've met janitors and cops who read books you wouldn't expect them to read, I've seen people asking big questions, changing their ideology after soul searching, all the things you think aren't happening with random people you wouldn't expect, are.  As to the majority?  Well, everyone, everyone has an opinion about the majority, but no one has access to them.  The best we can do is make shit up and hope no one actually gains the ability to see inside the majority of minds.
 
As for your English, you're doing fine.  But asking questions without providing concrete answers is more what I mean.  It becomes impossible to address what you might be talking about if you don't follow up a rhetorical question with something akin to your version of the answer.
 
I doubt we'll reach a resolution on this, because it seems to boil down to attitudes about humanity more than whatever the reality really is.
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ahoodedfigure

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#15  Edited By ahoodedfigure
@Eurobum: That may be true, and I do find him at times to use strangely pedantic explanations for things, but I was using the results of the experiment, which are documented, as a stepping-off point.
 
As to whether or not the guy's a hack, I can't honestly say.
 
That book you're talking about, I think he made a good point too, about how to orient your mindset.  I mean, I benefited directly from his suggestion, and I never gave him a cent for it.  Don't know if that was the talk you meant, but it's the only other one available at that site above.
 
I would agree that there aren't any simple answers, though.  I imagine others might agree that our search for simple answers to problems is what gets us into trouble in the first place.
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singular

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#16  Edited By singular

@ahoodedfigure    So I should provide my own answer to my own questions? Ok. What kind of books would you expect a cop or a janitor to read? I would expect them to read at least the same books as I would read until proven otherwise. I also expect to be wrong on that. Because my expectation about someone is just a basis until reality catches up. And because I only can fully comprehend my own view on the world I can only define others in they way they differ from me. Sure, I can think my way in to someone others way of thinking, but by doing so I only create a model of that person in my mind and therefore it is only a fantasy. I can never truly see the world trough somebody elses eyes. No one can. So, when you say "Gee, that cop reads classical literature, I have never expected that" you generalize every individual that happens to be a police officer into what you know how he should behave. Don't get me wrong. This is a perfectly normal behavior that hasn't changed during the history of civilisation. Everyone is seen as a role model in a dead serious play. And because of that we tend not to see the person behind the role. For that reason the "Guards" could treat the "Prisoners" in a dehumanizing way during the Stanford-Experiment.
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Claude

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#17  Edited By Claude

He should be a stepping stone to further learning. I see some truth in what he says. I was in the US Navy and would have went with what told many times. This must be older because, I felt strong political tones at the end. I for one, believe in the Geneva Conventions and to allow and hide behind a curtain of evil... makes you no less evil. The guy was good, entertaining and passionate.

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#18  Edited By Eurobum
@ahoodedfigure: 
 

A great way to tell if someone is upright, is to inquire whether the stuff is something the speaker is struggling to explain or something that people want to hear. A lot of inspiringstuff like "become a hero", "loose weight", "learn Spanish in 30 days" is of the latter category. Even Einstein is famously quoted to have said, that we use only 10% of our mental abilities. It sounds great to have so much untapped potential, if only it was true.

 
I was referring to Zimbardo's lecture about time perspective on the Science Network which is a great online source, with countless hours of Scientists and others discussing very interesting subjects addressing a broad audience. It has begun as Scientists against religious stupidity with the first "Beyond Belief" conference, but turned into mostly promoting knowledge and critical inquiry (and sadly academics trying to pitch their books).
 

Psychology is not really a hard science, it's observation and common sense and it's conclusions are based on mostly value judgments. Proceed with caution...
Incidentally during the first Beyond Belief Conference they discuss how many psychologists in the 80s and 90s  have planted memories of parental abuse into their patients, causing healthy people to be institutionalized and families being torn apart due to these accusations.
Even more recently "tough love" youth correctional facilities based on the same principles of peer pressure, breaking the will and brainwashing earned themselves a lot of negative press. They used the similar drill sergeants as the army.
 
The Milgram experiment (when 50% of normal people became torturers just because they followed instructions) can explain a lot of what happened in Nazi Germany and why authoritarian systems based on blind trust and obedience inspire such behavior. What annoys me the most is that nothing of this needs religious symbols like "EVIL" or "good" to explain, Zimbardo uses nonsense like "Lucifer effect" to appeal to the huge religious audience, even though religion is the same kind of system [or FRAMEWORK] based on Authority and Obedience, which makes well meaning people do nasty things. (like oppose birth control, indoctrinate children, rally against evolution ...) Things ranging from noble yet stupid gestures (like donating to churches) to criminal acts (like supporting the killers of abortion doctors).

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ahoodedfigure

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#19  Edited By ahoodedfigure

I'm not going to explain exactly why I did this original post, but for anyone who's still coming to what apparently has turned into a lecture series, there was a subtext to my post.  If you didn't pick up on it before, maybe my saying there's something behind why I posted this here on a Giant Bomb video game blog should clue you in.  If that's still not enough, I guess you're on your own.
 
Singular, you're right as you said in your personal email to me, your post reads as inflammatory, but I don't think it's because of translation difficulties.  You have managed to do what you say I'm doing, which is generalizing someone else.  I'm going to assume, because you're human, you've at least heard about people defeating their own prejudices through learning.  You seem to be ignoring my point about how that the awareness of human failings itself is important, and how that awareness has the potential to transform one's opinion.  Whether or not it does is anyone's guess.  Beyond that, I think we're running in circles, like I keep saying.  
 
Eurobum, I think that saying was more an attribution of Einstein's own mental capacity, that he used more of his brain than your average human, again, as you say, to motivate people even though it has no basis in fact.
 
You brought up a good point about people being manipulated by that same resource that's supposed to help us.  A lot of people have been subjected to this recovered memory stuff, despite consistent research showing our memories are fluid and not terribly reliable, especially when not backed up by habit and continued experience.  There is still a lot of hysteria going on based on supposed recovered memories.  While child abuse is of course a real thing, many of the anecdotal evidence we have for how pervasive it is, how pervasive and evil Satanism is, past lives, the whole shebang is based on faulty methodology, whether or not it was a power trip on the part of the therapist or a well-meaning but flawed attempt to make the person better.
 
There is something to be said about trauma being able to help someone enact change in their lives, the problem is the ethics of this use of trauma are questionable at best.  Often people don't understand the risks of going into a controlled but traumatic experience meant to help the person deal with deeper-set emotions, and this quest for wellness can then often become more damaging than it is helpful.
 
If you're implying, though, that no framework (as you acerbically use all-caps to emphasize) is useful because they are imperfect, I'm not sure there's much more we can talk about.  I think religion works both ways, unfortunately.  It does make well-meaning people do stupid stuff, but it also makes people who would otherwise do horrible things stop or think twice.  Maybe some day we'll figure out a method to provide social context without the nasty side-effects, but I don't think it's an easy task.
 
One framework, if you can still stand for me to use that word, I think about is that getting rid of slavery helps people get used to not having it, so more people begin to look at former slaves as human beings.  Allowing women to vote, as unpopular as it was for many people at the time, gets people used to the idea that women do it.  The banality of evil that everyone talks about also has an analog in the banality of good, that a societal structure, if sensible, can often be the catalyst for the next generation's acceptance of something.  Again, there's good and bad there, but I'm not pretending this should all be thrown away because of the shades of gray inherent in any social structure.  Thus the vigilance I first talked about in the original post helps fight against any corruption within a framework, no matter how beneficial it might be.  The rebelliousness inherent in humanity helps with that, even though our individual rebelliousness against things we don't like can, also, be harmful.  This cycles back to the prejudices I talk about, and how sometimes we need to be shown that our inherent prejudices aren't valid.
 
Put too much of a focus on the individual, and you become isolated, limited to whatever you can see with your own eyes.  Everything becomes illusion and sophistry.  Put too much of an emphasis on society, and the individuals that make up that society become dysfunctional, crushed under the weight of society's demands.  Sometimes the pendulum swings toward one of these extremes, then swings back.  Sometimes sacrifices are necessary to help achieve long-term goals, but I hope society never gains a permanent upper hand.  Ultimately the individual will be the better of the two, but we need to figure out, in the societal pool, what stuff works and what stuff doesn't.  
 
Science is, of course, the best method for this.  The only method, really, as imperfect as it is.  And, as you pointed out, even the institutions that build up around the scientific method are themselves often corrupted.  That's why we need to build ourselves up, to understand at least the basics of science better so that we aren't dependent upon experts of any stripe to tell us what's best for us.  This only comes through education and reinforcement, individual striving and group recognition of science's worth.  The latter is, again, a framework.
  
Finally, I'd like to repeat that there was an ancillary point I was trying to make with this blog post, despite all the interesting directions this conversation has taken us.  I'm disappointed no one picked up on it, but I guess it's my fault for not addressing the actual issue more directly.  Anyway, thanks for everyone's participation.