This vice presidential debate is getting REALLY heated

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tim_the_corsair

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#101  Edited By tim_the_corsair
@sissylion

@Turambar said:

@Tim_the_Corsair said:

Said wars continue, Guantanamo remains open, he ordered attacks on Libya with justifications of a nature almost as flimsy as Iraq, and ordered the assassination of a civilian while invading a foreign nation (with equally flimsy justifications) Now that isnt to say that I don't think the world is better off with Qaddafi or Bin Laden dead (some people need to die), of course, or even that Bush wasn't a disaster as a President, but looking from the perspective of someone outside the US, Obama looks little better to me.

I can understand where you're coming from on almost all points, but are you really calling Bin Laden a civilian?

He/she isn't, nor did they imply it. I believe that he/she is talking about Anwar al-Awlaki, who was an American citizen assassinated in Yemen last year.

It applies to both actually, but I had forgotten your example (it is, I think, even worse) I was referring to Bin Laden.

Legally, Bin Laden is a civilian.

He wasn't the leader of a government or an army, he was the leader of a terrorist group made up of civilians, no different to any others throughout history except for being more high profile. I understand that the US passed laws in the wake of 9/11 to state that military actions against those linked to 9/11 are justified and not classed as assassinations, but morally that is exactly what the killing of Bin Laden was: an assassination of someone who is a criminal and a mass murderer, but not a soldier or the leader of an army.

Plus it took invading an ally to do it, of course.

Again, I'm talking in principle here. In practice, I cheered along with everyone else that that bastard is dead. But then again I imagine most of us cheered when they swung Saddam Hussein as well.

All I am saying is that Obama's hands are far from clean.
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MarkWahlberg

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#102  Edited By MarkWahlberg

@Turambar said:

@Tim_the_Corsair said:

Said wars continue, Guantanamo remains open, he ordered attacks on Libya with justifications of a nature almost as flimsy as Iraq, and ordered the assassination of a civilian while invading a foreign nation (with equally flimsy justifications) Now that isnt to say that I don't think the world is better off with Qaddafi or Bin Laden dead (some people need to die), of course, or even that Bush wasn't a disaster as a President, but looking from the perspective of someone outside the US, Obama looks little better to me.

I can understand where you're coming from on almost all points, but are you really calling Bin Laden a civilian?

I don't know who Tim is referring to specifically, but Obama did openly have at least one (that I can recall) American citizen killed while abroad, and he's been a little trigger happy with the whole assassination thing in general. Granted, the guy was with Al Qaeda, but still. Sets a bad precedent, fails to uphold the Constitution, etc.

edit: late to comment yet again. phbth.

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Turambar

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#103  Edited By Turambar

@evanbower said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@Aegon:

Localization can be like that. (This is the Eltosian I became.)

My head can't shake disapprovingly enough.

Man, who the fuck wrote the names in that wiki. Siguld, Eltshan, Andorey, and Rakesis. IS THIS A DREAM?

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MariachiMacabre

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#104  Edited By MariachiMacabre
@JasonR86

@Animasta:

Where'd you hear that?

@MariachiMacabre:

It's a philosophical thing but I don't think it is the moderator's job to ask for elaborations in that manner. That seems to me to be the job of a journalist. To me the moderator showed bias. But I do agree that the lack of specifics is an issue (as I stated in the post you replied to).

The thing is the press has completely neglected that job so I think the moderators are the only ones left to stop and say "How?" Also, I believe that if a candidate is going to make claims, a debate is among the best places for those claims to be challenged.
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butano

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#105  Edited By butano
@Milkman Oh absolutely. CNN just happened to be the channel my roommates had it on when I came home. Hell, the Stewart/O'Reilly stunt was more of a debate than any of these presidential ones ever will be.
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PrivateIronTFU

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#106  Edited By PrivateIronTFU

Can't we just put Clinton back in office? I'm getting really tired of this bullshit. Remember the good old days when Clinton was doing his job AND getting blown in the oval office? Damn, that man could multitask.

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Ocean_H

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#107  Edited By Ocean_H

@Animasta said:

@Tim_the_Corsair: biden said they'd be pulling out of afghanistan 2014 no matter what, while Ryan said they wanted to make the 2014 date but there might be obstacles

(he never specified these obstacles)

Ryan never specified anything. He wasn't even clear about international intervention (see @6:13)

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Slag

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#108  Edited By Slag

@Tim_the_Corsair said:

Said wars continue, Guantanamo remains open, he ordered attacks on Libya with justifications of a nature almost as flimsy as Iraq, and ordered the assassination of a civilian while invading a foreign nation (with equally flimsy justifications) Now that isnt to say that I don't think the world is better off with Qaddafi or Bin Laden dead (some people need to die), of course, or even that Bush wasn't a disaster as a President, but looking from the perspective of someone outside the US, Obama looks little better to me.

That's because he hasn't been much better. So far he really hasn't deviated much from Bush's policies, even the Bush Doctrine, other than how he spins them to the public.

and if Romney wins it's largely going to be more of the same.

The bigger and more troubling question is why do the American people only get to choose from people who essentially have the same policies?

even the so-called debate on Healthcare reform seems like a sham given that Romney created something similar as governor of Massachusetts.

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Flawed_System

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#109  Edited By Flawed_System

@Animasta said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

that's because you're fucking wrong? goddamn. Were you not actually watch the debate? Ryan was out of his goddamn league, his closing statement sounded like he was trying to sell me a car

Case in point.

Thank You.

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Flawed_System

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#110  Edited By Flawed_System

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

Are you going to provide a concise list of examples, or are you just going to leave it at that? Just curious.

If someone wants examples I can provide a few.

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Video_Game_King

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#111  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Turambar said:

@evanbower said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@Aegon:

Localization can be like that. (This is the Eltosian I became.)

My head can't shake disapprovingly enough.

Man, who the fuck wrote the names in that wiki. Siguld, Eltshan, Andorey, and Rakesis. IS THIS A DREAM?

Technically, Siglud would be right; if it was Sigurd, it'd probably be シガード. Can't say anything for the other names, though. Lachesis looks so much better.

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Fredchuckdave

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#112  Edited By Fredchuckdave

Polls with a +/- error above 3% are effectively useless; these are generally the most obviously wrong polls that you'll read, there were a handful of McCain victory polls last election and what have you. It just means they didn't take an appropriate sample, in the case of a speedy CNN poll it generally means they didn't even try to make the poll accurate. 4% is useless, 5% is "Hey let's slap some numbers on a board randomly."

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golguin

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#113  Edited By golguin

@MariachiMacabre said:

@JasonR86

@Animasta:

Where'd you hear that?

@MariachiMacabre:

It's a philosophical thing but I don't think it is the moderator's job to ask for elaborations in that manner. That seems to me to be the job of a journalist. To me the moderator showed bias. But I do agree that the lack of specifics is an issue (as I stated in the post you replied to).

The thing is the press has completely neglected that job so I think the moderators are the only ones left to stop and say "How?" Also, I believe that if a candidate is going to make claims, a debate is among the best places for those claims to be challenged.

Yes this. The media has failed miserably in simply relaying what someone said instead of analyzing what was said with facts. It would be a dream of the moderator had a crack team on hand to immediately confirm or deny something a candidate is saying during the debate. If both candidates are simply going to go for he said she said then who are you going to believe?

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wrighteous86

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#114  Edited By wrighteous86

@Flawed_System said:

@Animasta said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

that's because you're fucking wrong? goddamn. Were you not actually watch the debate? Ryan was out of his goddamn league, his closing statement sounded like he was trying to sell me a car

Case in point.

Thank You.

Romney did it last week and was bold and "take charge". Biden did it this weak and he was disrespectful and arrogant. Funny, that.

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neurotic

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#115  Edited By neurotic

It's funny to see people call Biden 'rude' or 'disrespectful' for interrupting in a two-person debate. Try watching a House of Commons session. It's like a spectator sport, people boo and sneer at the speaker. If Ryan's points were sound enough then Biden shouldn't have been able to interrupt and if he did, he would have looked stupid which people seem to agree that he didn't.

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Flawed_System

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#116  Edited By Flawed_System

@Wrighteous86 said:

@Flawed_System said:

@Animasta said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

that's because you're fucking wrong? goddamn. Were you not actually watch the debate? Ryan was out of his goddamn league, his closing statement sounded like he was trying to sell me a car

Case in point.

Thank You.

Romney did it last week and was bold and "take charge". Biden did it this weak (?) and he was disrespectful and arrogant. Funny, that.

Except Romney wasn't laughing, calling Obama "my friend" and "this guy", and requesting more time every five minutes (even though he had 1:50 longer than Ryan already). Furthermore, I don't believe Biden "took charge" at all, he stumbled frequently, rarely addressed Ryan, and was laughing/smirking far too often.

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JasonR86

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#117  Edited By JasonR86

@golguin said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

@JasonR86

@Animasta:

Where'd you hear that?

@MariachiMacabre:

It's a philosophical thing but I don't think it is the moderator's job to ask for elaborations in that manner. That seems to me to be the job of a journalist. To me the moderator showed bias. But I do agree that the lack of specifics is an issue (as I stated in the post you replied to).

The thing is the press has completely neglected that job so I think the moderators are the only ones left to stop and say "How?" Also, I believe that if a candidate is going to make claims, a debate is among the best places for those claims to be challenged.

Yes this. The media has failed miserably in simply relaying what someone said instead of analyzing what was said with facts. It would be a dream of the moderator had a crack team on hand to immediately confirm or deny something a candidate is saying during the debate. If both candidates are simply going to go for he said she said then who are you going to believe?

This is an issue. But the moderator, to me, is supposed to be there to move the debate along and keep things fair. If I noticed the moderator as much as I notice the debaters then something bad has happened.

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Fire_Of_The_Wind

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@Video_Game_King said:

@Aegon said:

Anyone else watching?

Why would I? It's the Vice Presidential debate, and if I understand American politics correctly, the Vice President's power amounts to absolutely nothing.

You can shoot people in the face and call it an accident, that's more than enough power.

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Video_Game_King

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#119  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Fire_Of_The_Wind said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@Aegon said:

Anyone else watching?

Why would I? It's the Vice Presidential debate, and if I understand American politics correctly, the Vice President's power amounts to absolutely nothing.

You can shoot people in the face and call it an accident, that's more than enough power.

Because sooo many Vice Presidents are shooting people in the face.

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BlackLagoon

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#120  Edited By BlackLagoon

@Fire_Of_The_Wind said:

@Video_Game_King said:

Why would I? It's the Vice Presidential debate, and if I understand American politics correctly, the Vice President's power amounts to absolutely nothing.

You can shoot people in the face and call it an accident, that's more than enough power.

The vice presidency is what its occupant makes it. In the case of Dick Cheney, he'd been around Washington since the 70s, only taking a break to become CEO of a massive, multinational oil corporation for a while. He'd be an extremely powerful individual under any circumstances.

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audiosnow

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#121  Edited By audiosnow

Despite how little educational authority I attribute to SourceFed, this video actually explains the vice president's responsibilities pretty well:

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Superkenon

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#122  Edited By Superkenon

@Flawed_System said:

@Wrighteous86 said:

@Flawed_System said:

@Animasta said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

that's because you're fucking wrong? goddamn. Were you not actually watch the debate? Ryan was out of his goddamn league, his closing statement sounded like he was trying to sell me a car

Case in point.

Thank You.

Romney did it last week and was bold and "take charge". Biden did it this weak (?) and he was disrespectful and arrogant. Funny, that.

Except Romney wasn't laughing, calling Obama "my friend" and "this guy", and requesting more time every five minutes (even though he had 1:50 longer than Ryan already). Furthermore, I don't believe Biden "took charge" at all, he stumbled frequently, rarely addressed Ryan, and was laughing/smirking far too often.

This just in: democrats hate smug republicans, and republicans hate smug democrats, and will both do whatever it takes to justify/denounce their actions/mannerisms!

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BraveToaster

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#123  Edited By BraveToaster

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

Are you going to provide a concise list of examples, or are you just going to leave it at that? Just curious.

If someone wants examples I can provide a few.

(-___- ') I should reword the question: can you give me some examples of Biden lying during the debate?

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Justin258

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#124  Edited By Justin258

@PrivateIronTFU said:

Can't we just put Clinton back in office? I'm getting really tired of this bullshit. Remember the good old days when Clinton was doing his job AND getting blown in the oval office? Damn, that man could multitask.

This is the only thing I could think of while reading this thread. Son of a bitch clearly understood that you're supposed to screw the interns, not the economy.

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Flawed_System

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#125  Edited By Flawed_System

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

Are you going to provide a concise list of examples, or are you just going to leave it at that? Just curious.

If someone wants examples I can provide a few.

(-___- ') I should reword the question: can you give me some examples of Biden lying during the debate?

Libya: " But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there."

"two security officials who worked for the State Department in Libya at the time testified Thursday that they repeatedly requested more security and two State Department officials admitted they had denied those requests."

Security: "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for."

Ryan's proposal for cuts on non-discretionary security spending...he doesn't even mention embassy security, and $300 million is a 19% cut across the board, not just for what was proposed.

Religion: "No religious institution, Catholic or otherwise...has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy we provide. That is a fact."

Then why are several religious organizations suing the Obama administration to defend their First Amendment rights?

Biden on Iraq/Afghanistan: "It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card...I was there. I voted against him."

Biden actually voted in favor of both wars.

Medicare: "What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to Medicare."

Obama cut Medicare and then used the money to pay for Obamacare. I'm not quite sure how that's saving anything...

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BraveToaster

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#126  Edited By BraveToaster

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

Are you going to provide a concise list of examples, or are you just going to leave it at that? Just curious.

If someone wants examples I can provide a few.

(-___- ') I should reword the question: can you give me some examples of Biden lying during the debate?

Libya: " But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there."

"two security officials who worked for the State Department in Libya at the time testified Thursday that they repeatedly requested more security and two State Department officials admitted they had denied those requests."

Security: "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for."

Ryan's proposal for cuts on non-discretionary security spending...he doesn't even mention embassy security, and $300 million is a 19% cut across the board, not just for what was proposed.

Religion: "No religious institution, Catholic or otherwise...has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy we provide. That is a fact."

Then why are several religious organizations suing the Obama administration to defend their First Amendment rights?

Biden on Iraq/Afghanistan: "It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card...I was there. I voted against him."

Biden actually voted in favor of both wars.

Medicare: "What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to Medicare."

Obama cut Medicare and then used the money to pay for Obamacare. I'm not quite sure how that's saving anything...

Thanks.

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sarge1445

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#127  Edited By sarge1445

@TooWalrus said:

@Turambar said:

One the bit about the moderator seeming to favor Biden, I get the feeling that';s due to her grilling of Ryan on the specifics of what they would cut to make up revenue. Here's the thing: she's not picking on him. That's simply the Romney camp's biggest question being asked by fucking everyone. Even Wallace of Fox News grilled Ryan on that point, demanding specifics. If the country as a whole wants to know, its the job of the moderator to probe for answers on that front.

Yep. It's the thing I hate most about the Romney campaign- this whole idea of "we're gonna fix everything Obama fucked up- how? Vote for us and find out". They keep going on about their 5-point plan. Point number 1! Make America energy independent by the end of the decade. ...OK, sounds great, FUCKING HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DO THAT?!

fairy dust

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Ares42

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#128  Edited By Ares42

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

Religion: "No religious institution, Catholic or otherwise...has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy we provide. That is a fact."

Then why are several religious organizations suing the Obama administration to defend their First Amendment rights?

Medicare: "What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to Medicare."

Obama cut Medicare and then used the money to pay for Obamacare. I'm not quite sure how that's saving anything...

These are accusations, not proof of deception. Why are the religious organizations suing ? who knows. Come back when they've won a case. And just because they reduced the amount of money spent on Medicare and then used it to finance "Obamacare" it doesn't necessarily mean there was no optimization done to Medicare meaning money saved without loss of service. Not saying you're wrong, but could use some more facts.

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stonepawfox

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#129  Edited By stonepawfox

i was going to research and come up with a retort because i thought obama had found some kind of compromise with the churches who complained about obamacare birth control whatever the hell issue they're worried about

then i realized the people complaining are largely a bunch of religious assholes who probably don't respect women and would allow children to be born while harming/killing the mother or into a loveless/destitute/unhealthy life just for the sake of their fucked up "morality" because they think obama is going to open 10 story high abortionplexes and let everyone suck out all the embryos they want.

seriously, if you wont pay money into healthcare only because you disagree with responsible sexual practices and necessary termination of pregnancies because of religion then fuck you anyway, no one should even care about your opinion in present day society. feel free to not pay your taxes and go to jail feeling righteous about it. you're free to practice anything you want, you're not free to be treated differently because of it.

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phantomzxro

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#130  Edited By phantomzxro

@Superkenon said:

@Flawed_System said:

@Wrighteous86 said:

@Flawed_System said:

@Animasta said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

that's because you're fucking wrong? goddamn. Were you not actually watch the debate? Ryan was out of his goddamn league, his closing statement sounded like he was trying to sell me a car

Case in point.

Thank You.

Romney did it last week and was bold and "take charge". Biden did it this weak (?) and he was disrespectful and arrogant. Funny, that.

Except Romney wasn't laughing, calling Obama "my friend" and "this guy", and requesting more time every five minutes (even though he had 1:50 longer than Ryan already). Furthermore, I don't believe Biden "took charge" at all, he stumbled frequently, rarely addressed Ryan, and was laughing/smirking far too often.

This just in: democrats hate smug republicans, and republicans hate smug democrats, and will both do whatever it takes to justify/denounce their actions/mannerisms!

so true...well true for biased fans that will always be jaded. I don't care for Romney and don't like his polices and his statements he hasmade have made up my mind on the kind of person he is. In saying all that i still can give credit where credit is due because he owned that first debate while Obama seemed like his heart was not in it.

Biden did the same as Romney and toke control of that debate and i don't see smiling and calling someone friend as rude. These guys have to work together so i don't see it as a means of disrespect. In the end even going along with that, being "rude" does not disqualify you from winning the debate if your points are sound.

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Flawed_System

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#131  Edited By Flawed_System

@Ares42 said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

Religion: "No religious institution, Catholic or otherwise...has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy we provide. That is a fact."

Then why are several religious organizations suing the Obama administration to defend their First Amendment rights?

Medicare: "What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to Medicare."

Obama cut Medicare and then used the money to pay for Obamacare. I'm not quite sure how that's saving anything...

These are accusations, not proof of deception. Why are the religious organizations suing ? who knows. Come back when they've won a case. And just because they reduced the amount of money spent on Medicare and then used it to finance "Obamacare" it doesn't necessarily mean there was no optimization done to Medicare meaning money saved without loss of service. Not saying you're wrong, but could use some more facts.

They are suing because they feel their first amendment rights have been breached. The figure he cited "$716 billion" is completely false. They may have saved money, but no where near as much as he claims.

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Flawed_System

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#132  Edited By Flawed_System

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

Are you going to provide a concise list of examples, or are you just going to leave it at that? Just curious.

If someone wants examples I can provide a few.

(-___- ') I should reword the question: can you give me some examples of Biden lying during the debate?

Libya: " But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there."

"two security officials who worked for the State Department in Libya at the time testified Thursday that they repeatedly requested more security and two State Department officials admitted they had denied those requests."

Security: "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for."

Ryan's proposal for cuts on non-discretionary security spending...he doesn't even mention embassy security, and $300 million is a 19% cut across the board, not just for what was proposed.

Religion: "No religious institution, Catholic or otherwise...has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy we provide. That is a fact."

Then why are several religious organizations suing the Obama administration to defend their First Amendment rights?

Biden on Iraq/Afghanistan: "It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card...I was there. I voted against him."

Biden actually voted in favor of both wars.

Medicare: "What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to Medicare."

Obama cut Medicare and then used the money to pay for Obamacare. I'm not quite sure how that's saving anything...

Thanks.

I forgot to add that his claim about the military falling under the "47%" is also false. Their pay is considered Gross Income, which is taxable.

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#133  Edited By Turambar
@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

Are you going to provide a concise list of examples, or are you just going to leave it at that? Just curious.

If someone wants examples I can provide a few.

(-___- ') I should reword the question: can you give me some examples of Biden lying during the debate?

Libya: " But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there."

"two security officials who worked for the State Department in Libya at the time testified Thursday that they repeatedly requested more security and two State Department officials admitted they had denied those requests."

Security: "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for."

Ryan's proposal for cuts on non-discretionary security spending...he doesn't even mention embassy security, and $300 million is a 19% cut across the board, not just for what was proposed.

Religion: "No religious institution, Catholic or otherwise...has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy we provide. That is a fact."

Then why are several religious organizations suing the Obama administration to defend their First Amendment rights?

Biden on Iraq/Afghanistan: "It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card...I was there. I voted against him."

Biden actually voted in favor of both wars.

Medicare: "What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to Medicare."

Obama cut Medicare and then used the money to pay for Obamacare. I'm not quite sure how that's saving anything...

1.  It'll take it one line at a time.  The statement on Libya embassy security from Biden was false.  The official request to the State Department was for 3 more agents.  Though those within the embassy has made unofficial requests to their superiors for a dozen more guards.
 
2.  On point two, embassy security falls under non-discretionary security spending actually.  Presuming cuts are made across the board, that's where the 300 million dollar number comes from.  I don't believe Romney or Ryan have specified what parts they would cut.
 
3.  Obama's healthcare plan currently exempts certain religious and non-profit institutions and has given a year long reprieve in working out a plan with the Catholic Church, religious colleges and universities, and lastly the Catholic Health Association.  For the record, the Catholic Health Association has come out supporting Obama.  However, there are indeed 30 lawsuits pending, most of them from private employers not exempt under Obama as well as non-profit organizations who feel like they are indirectly paying for controception.
 
4.  Biden did in fact vote for both wars.
 
5. Now, the number $716 billion came from the Congressional Budget Office stating that if the Affordable Care Act (obamacare) was repealed, spending for Medicare would increase by 716 billion.  That's where Romney got number from, and why he is making the argument that, as a result, it looks like Obama cut money out of Medicare.  However, it is also stated by the Congressional Budget Office that the 716 billion dollars spent in Obamacare would cost HMOs more money, which if spent on Medicare, would cost patients more money.
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#134  Edited By Turambar
@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

Are you going to provide a concise list of examples, or are you just going to leave it at that? Just curious.

If someone wants examples I can provide a few.

(-___- ') I should reword the question: can you give me some examples of Biden lying during the debate?

Libya: " But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there."

"two security officials who worked for the State Department in Libya at the time testified Thursday that they repeatedly requested more security and two State Department officials admitted they had denied those requests."

Security: "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for."

Ryan's proposal for cuts on non-discretionary security spending...he doesn't even mention embassy security, and $300 million is a 19% cut across the board, not just for what was proposed.

Religion: "No religious institution, Catholic or otherwise...has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy we provide. That is a fact."

Then why are several religious organizations suing the Obama administration to defend their First Amendment rights?

Biden on Iraq/Afghanistan: "It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card...I was there. I voted against him."

Biden actually voted in favor of both wars.

Medicare: "What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to Medicare."

Obama cut Medicare and then used the money to pay for Obamacare. I'm not quite sure how that's saving anything...

Thanks.

I forgot to add that his claim about the military falling under the "47%" is also false. Their pay is considered Gross Income, which is taxable.

You're actually wrong.  Military personnel, when deployed overseas, are not liable for income tax.  Stateside soldiers however are.
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#135  Edited By Flawed_System

@Turambar said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

Are you going to provide a concise list of examples, or are you just going to leave it at that? Just curious.

If someone wants examples I can provide a few.

(-___- ') I should reword the question: can you give me some examples of Biden lying during the debate?

Libya: " But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there."

"two security officials who worked for the State Department in Libya at the time testified Thursday that they repeatedly requested more security and two State Department officials admitted they had denied those requests."

Security: "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for."

Ryan's proposal for cuts on non-discretionary security spending...he doesn't even mention embassy security, and $300 million is a 19% cut across the board, not just for what was proposed.

Religion: "No religious institution, Catholic or otherwise...has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy we provide. That is a fact."

Then why are several religious organizations suing the Obama administration to defend their First Amendment rights?

Biden on Iraq/Afghanistan: "It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card...I was there. I voted against him."

Biden actually voted in favor of both wars.

Medicare: "What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to Medicare."

Obama cut Medicare and then used the money to pay for Obamacare. I'm not quite sure how that's saving anything...

Thanks.

I forgot to add that his claim about the military falling under the "47%" is also false. Their pay is considered Gross Income, which is taxable.

You're actually wrong. Military personnel, when deployed overseas, are not liable for income tax. Stateside soldiers however are.

I thought that was pretty obvious...Romney was referring to people stateside, thus, the claim is false.

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#136  Edited By Flawed_System

@Turambar said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

Are you going to provide a concise list of examples, or are you just going to leave it at that? Just curious.

If someone wants examples I can provide a few.

(-___- ') I should reword the question: can you give me some examples of Biden lying during the debate?

Libya: " But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there."

"two security officials who worked for the State Department in Libya at the time testified Thursday that they repeatedly requested more security and two State Department officials admitted they had denied those requests."

Security: "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for."

Ryan's proposal for cuts on non-discretionary security spending...he doesn't even mention embassy security, and $300 million is a 19% cut across the board, not just for what was proposed.

Religion: "No religious institution, Catholic or otherwise...has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy we provide. That is a fact."

Then why are several religious organizations suing the Obama administration to defend their First Amendment rights?

Biden on Iraq/Afghanistan: "It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card...I was there. I voted against him."

Biden actually voted in favor of both wars.

Medicare: "What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to Medicare."

Obama cut Medicare and then used the money to pay for Obamacare. I'm not quite sure how that's saving anything...

1. It'll take it one line at a time. The statement on Libya embassy security from Biden was false. The official request to the State Department was for 3 more agents. Though those within the embassy has made unofficial requests to their superiors for a dozen more guards.

2. On point two, embassy security falls under non-discretionary security spending actually. Presuming cuts are made across the board, that's where the 300 million dollar number comes from. I don't believe Romney or Ryan have specified what parts they would cut.

3. Obama's healthcare plan currently exempts certain religious and non-profit institutions and has given a year long reprieve in working out a plan with the Catholic Church, religious colleges and universities, and lastly the Catholic Health Association. For the record, the Catholic Health Association has come out supporting Obama. However, there are indeed 30 lawsuits pending, most of them from private employers not exempt under Obama as well as non-profit organizations who feel like they are indirectly paying for controception.

4. Biden did in fact vote for both wars.

5. Now, the number $716 billion came from the Congressional Budget Office stating that if the Affordable Care Act (obamacare) was repealed, spending for Medicare would increase by 716 billion. That's where Romney got number from, and why he is making the argument that, as a result, it looks like Obama cut money out of Medicare. However, it is also stated by the Congressional Budget Office that the 716 billion dollars spent in Obamacare would cost HMOs more money, which if spent on Medicare, would cost patients more money.

1). The quote from Biden for #1 is "But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there." The section in bold is what actually occurred. Clearly Biden was mistaken.

2). Can you please explain to me how Embassy security can be considered non-discretionary security spending?

Regardless, Ryan never proposed cutting Embassy security spending. Thus, the statement is still false.

3). Can you cite where you got this information from please (regarding religious exemption, I've read that there's an incredibly narrow exemption currently)? The CHA recently pulled support for Obamacare due to the contraception plan.

4). Isn't that what I posted? "Biden actually voted in favor of both wars."

5). What you're saying is that the money spent on Obamacare would cost HMO's more money...and if they spend it on Medicare instead of Obamacare how would that negatively impact patients? Please elaborate.

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#137  Edited By Turambar

@Flawed_System said:

@Turambar said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

@BraveToaster said:

@Flawed_System said:

Biden was terrible. Disrespectful, blamed intelligence community, blamed bush, cited incorrect numbers, arrogant etc.

No one that supports Obama will see that of course.

Are you going to provide a concise list of examples, or are you just going to leave it at that? Just curious.

If someone wants examples I can provide a few.

(-___- ') I should reword the question: can you give me some examples of Biden lying during the debate?

Libya: " But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there."

"two security officials who worked for the State Department in Libya at the time testified Thursday that they repeatedly requested more security and two State Department officials admitted they had denied those requests."

Security: "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for."

Ryan's proposal for cuts on non-discretionary security spending...he doesn't even mention embassy security, and $300 million is a 19% cut across the board, not just for what was proposed.

Religion: "No religious institution, Catholic or otherwise...has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy we provide. That is a fact."

Then why are several religious organizations suing the Obama administration to defend their First Amendment rights?

Biden on Iraq/Afghanistan: "It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card...I was there. I voted against him."

Biden actually voted in favor of both wars.

Medicare: "What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to Medicare."

Obama cut Medicare and then used the money to pay for Obamacare. I'm not quite sure how that's saving anything...

Thanks.

I forgot to add that his claim about the military falling under the "47%" is also false. Their pay is considered Gross Income, which is taxable.

You're actually wrong. Military personnel, when deployed overseas, are not liable for income tax. Stateside soldiers however are.

I thought that was pretty obvious...Romney was referring to people stateside, thus, the claim is false.

No. That wasn't clear at all unless you show evidence that Romeny was speaking of specifically soldiers at home, not simple those that don't pay income tax.

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#138  Edited By imsh_pl

The fact that people would rather discuss the rhethoric abilities of the debaters rather than the actual moral implications of their propositions speaks really badly of the followers of the debate.

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#139  Edited By Turambar

@Flawed_System said:

1). The quote from Biden for #1 is "But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there." The section in bold is what actually occurred. Clearly Biden was mistaken.

2). Can you please explain to me how Embassy security can be considered non-discretionary security spending?

Regardless, Ryan never proposed cutting Embassy security spending. Thus, the statement is still false.

3). Can you cite where you got this information from please (regarding religious exemption, I've read that there's an incredibly narrow exemption currently)? The CHA recently pulled support for Obamacare due to the contraception plan.

4). Isn't that what I posted? "Biden actually voted in favor of both wars."

5). What you're saying is that the money spent on Obamacare would cost HMO's more money...and if they spend it on Medicare instead of Obamacare how would that negatively impact patients? Please elaborate.

1. Hence why I said his statement was false.

2. Because it is? It is anything in the Federal budget that isn't Defense and National Security, Social Security, and health care. Why it isn't under defense, I have no idea. Ryan's lack of specifications could mean that he will cut none of embassy security, or he will cut all of it. We don't know, so assuming it will be spread out evenly over everything falling into non-discretionary spending is reasonable. You're being silly.

3. Politico

4. Yes, I'm agreeing with you.

5. The money being taken form Medicare comes largely from subsidies to Medicare Advantage, a subset of programs ran by private insurers that started under the Bush administration. It's goal was to have insurers under Medicare Advantage compete with each other to have lower prices, but how successful that was is questionable.

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#140  Edited By Turambar

@imsh_pl said:

The fact that people would rather discuss the rhethoric abilities of the debaters rather than the actual moral implications of their propositions speaks really badly of the followers of the debate.

Isn't the world just wonderful?

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#141  Edited By Flawed_System

@Turambar said:

@Flawed_System said:

1). The quote from Biden for #1 is "But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there." The section in bold is what actually occurred. Clearly Biden was mistaken.

2). Can you please explain to me how Embassy security can be considered non-discretionary security spending?

Regardless, Ryan never proposed cutting Embassy security spending. Thus, the statement is still false.

3). Can you cite where you got this information from please (regarding religious exemption, I've read that there's an incredibly narrow exemption currently)? The CHA recently pulled support for Obamacare due to the contraception plan.

4). Isn't that what I posted? "Biden actually voted in favor of both wars."

5). What you're saying is that the money spent on Obamacare would cost HMO's more money...and if they spend it on Medicare instead of Obamacare how would that negatively impact patients? Please elaborate.

1. Hence why I said his statement was false.

2. Because it is? It is anything in the Federal budget that isn't Defense and National Security, Social Security, and health care. Why it isn't under defense, I have no idea. Ryan's lack of specifications could mean that he will cut none of embassy security, or he will cut all of it. We don't know, so assuming it will be spread out evenly over everything falling into non-discretionary spending is reasonable. You're being silly.

3. Politico

4. Yes, I'm agreeing with you.

5. The money being taken form Medicare comes largely from subsidies to Medicare Advantage, a subset of programs ran by private insurers that started under the Bush administration. It's goal was to have insurers under Medicare Advantage compete with each other to have lower prices, but how successful that was is questionable.

2). I don't believe it's reasonable to assume he'll cut everything when that clearly isn't his intent. The Romney-Ryan budget plan is easily accessed online (in pdf form) and it makes no mention of Embassy cuts or across the board cuts. Thus, Biden's assertion that he will cut everything is unreasonable and unfounded.

3). I've looked at that article and it states that only certain institutions are exempt, it doesn't specify which institutions, and private employers are not exempt. This still creates a conundrum of sorts, as you an see, because these private employers are still required to provide contraceptives regardless of their religious beliefs and there are still religious institutions that are required to as well.

5). Getting back to the original statement...Biden's assertion that they saved money was unfounded. Regardless of Romney/Ryan's plan to put the money into medicare and speculations on how much this would cost patients. Do you agree?

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#142  Edited By Flawed_System

@Turambar said:

No. That wasn't clear at all unless you show evidence that Romeny was speaking of specifically soldiers at home, not simple those that don't pay income tax.

Seeing as he was addressing civilians at home...it's not a huge stretch to infer that he wasn't counting troops deployed overseas.

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#143  Edited By Turambar

@Flawed_System said:

@Turambar said:

No. That wasn't clear at all unless you show evidence that Romeny was speaking of specifically soldiers at home, not simple those that don't pay income tax.

Seeing as he was addressing civilians at home...it's not a huge stretch to infer that he wasn't counting troops deployed overseas.

It's actually a giant stretch. Don't be daft. He made no clauses when he stated in clear terms who fell into the 47%: those that do not pay income tax. He wasn't speaking to students, those that made 20 thousand or less a year, or those who were on fixed Social Security income, but you certainly aren't making the argument they don't fall into the group. Whats the logic behind pretending overseas soldiers did?

@Flawed_System said:

@Turambar said:

@Flawed_System said:

1). The quote from Biden for #1 is "But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there." The section in bold is what actually occurred. Clearly Biden was mistaken.

2). Can you please explain to me how Embassy security can be considered non-discretionary security spending?

Regardless, Ryan never proposed cutting Embassy security spending. Thus, the statement is still false.

3). Can you cite where you got this information from please (regarding religious exemption, I've read that there's an incredibly narrow exemption currently)? The CHA recently pulled support for Obamacare due to the contraception plan.

4). Isn't that what I posted? "Biden actually voted in favor of both wars."

5). What you're saying is that the money spent on Obamacare would cost HMO's more money...and if they spend it on Medicare instead of Obamacare how would that negatively impact patients? Please elaborate.

1. Hence why I said his statement was false.

2. Because it is? It is anything in the Federal budget that isn't Defense and National Security, Social Security, and health care. Why it isn't under defense, I have no idea. Ryan's lack of specifications could mean that he will cut none of embassy security, or he will cut all of it. We don't know, so assuming it will be spread out evenly over everything falling into non-discretionary spending is reasonable. You're being silly.

3. Politico

4. Yes, I'm agreeing with you.

5. The money being taken form Medicare comes largely from subsidies to Medicare Advantage, a subset of programs ran by private insurers that started under the Bush administration. It's goal was to have insurers under Medicare Advantage compete with each other to have lower prices, but how successful that was is questionable.

2). I don't believe it's reasonable to assume he'll cut everything when that clearly isn't his intent. The Romney-Ryan budget plan is easily accessed online (in pdf form) and it makes no mention of Embassy cuts or across the board cuts. Thus, Biden's assertion that he will cut everything is unreasonable and unfounded.

3). I've looked at that article and it states that only certain institutions are exempt, it doesn't specify which institutions, and private employers are not exempt. This still creates a conundrum of sorts, as you an see, because these private employers are still required to provide contraceptives regardless of their religious beliefs and there are still religious institutions that are required to as well.

5). Getting back to the original statement...Biden's assertion that they saved money was unfounded. Regardless of Romney/Ryan's plan to put the money into medicare and speculations on how much this would cost patients. Do you agree?

2. If a general lack of information (because the budget plan does not in fact mention any specifics of what it will cut under the non-discretionary spending aside from that it will be cutting non-discretionary spending) is Romeny/Ryan's defense, there's not really any argument the opposing side can give because there is nothing to argue against.

3. Yes, I already mentioned that private employers are not excluded in my original response.

5. Here's the logic in plain terms: HMOs saving money through subsidies but not passing on the savings to patients? Fuck that. Patients saving money directly through subsidies and leaving HMOs out to dry? Fuck yeah.

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#144  Edited By Whamola

I'm a little surprised that people are so upset over Biden smiling and laughing a lot during the debate. Maybe it's because I do it a lot too, but it's pretty much an involuntary reaction.

When I've debated, if the opponent is saying something that's demonstrably false, or is saying something so ridiculous that it's embarrassing, I've started involuntarily laughing and smiling. It's a mix between feeling embarrassed for them and being shocked at what they're saying. It's not the most graceful problem to have. People are also upset because they feel that Biden was "smug", but I think that's a result of the anti-intelligence feeling that's common in America right now. Biden was very confidently and intelligently arguing his points, doing so, unfortunately, makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable. However, that's their problem.

But enough about all that. What was more important was what each person was saying. Although now that I think about it, the right's reaction to Biden's mannerisms says all that needs to be said. Ryan was a lame duck and almost everyone who actually paid attention to what was said will agree. Ryan said a lot, but he never actually ever said anything of substance, and furthermore, his little "human interest stories" were either sickeningly sweet or just plain inappropriate. First you had his disgusting car crash story told to Biden, WHO LOST HIS WIFE AND KIDS IN A CAR CRASH, which the moral was, "Romney will give everyone money instead of making their problems go away". Then you have the "Bean" story, which as someone who deals a lot with hard science, was laughable. The short of it was that he saw an ultrasound of his unborn daughter and she was the size and shape of a bean, so he KNEW from then on, that life begins at conception. The whole story just confirmed that he knows nothing about science. That "bean" (assuming he didn't make the whole story up on the assumption that fetuses look like their earliest stages up until the actual birth) was actually a small sac of various fluids. It had no awareness at all, could not feel anything, and was not even vaguely recognizable as mammalian let alone living. As a matter of fact, it would be more cruel to kill a worm than a fetus at that stage. But these stories are just meant to manipulate people via their emotions. It was disgusting, but unfortunately, it worked at least to some extent. Furthermore, he completely botched the question about Abortion. His answer was essentially, "I believe in freedom of speech, but ONLY for MY religion". Biden's was near perfect with "I believe certain things because of my religion, but it's wrong to push my beliefs on anyone, so I will never restrict anyone's freedom." Finally, the funniest part of the debate, in my opinion, was Ryan's comment on withdrawing our troops. First he said it's wrong to withdraw the troops in 2014, then he was called out on that, so he changed his mind, when he was called out on THAT he said, "Well, we should withdraw our troops in 2014, BUT NOT TELL ANYONE" If it wasn't potentially ruinous to our country, I would love to see Romney and Ryan win, if only to see what goofy thing they'd say or do next.

The whole debate can be summed up by the closing statements.

Biden's was honest, informal but well thought out, and passionate.

Ryan's was overly rehearsed, void of any substance, and meaningless

As for the moderator, she did a fantastic job. She opened with the ONE question Biden didn't want to discuss, and later on, there was a period where she was absolutely hammering Biden. If anything, she was much harder against Biden. With Ryan, all she did was ask him to explain his answers because he was continuously saying, "We're going to fix (problem)", but he was never even hinting at how.

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#145  Edited By Flawed_System

@Turambar said:

@Flawed_System said:

@Turambar said:

No. That wasn't clear at all unless you show evidence that Romeny was speaking of specifically soldiers at home, not simple those that don't pay income tax.

Seeing as he was addressing civilians at home...it's not a huge stretch to infer that he wasn't counting troops deployed overseas.

It's actually a giant stretch. Don't be daft. He made no clauses when he stated in clear terms who fell into the 47%: those that do not pay income tax. He wasn't speaking to students, those that made 20 thousand or less a year, or those who were on fixed Social Security income, but you certainly aren't making the argument they don't fall into the group. Whats the logic behind pretending overseas soldiers did?

@Flawed_System said:

@Turambar said:

@Flawed_System said:

1). The quote from Biden for #1 is "But we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there." The section in bold is what actually occurred. Clearly Biden was mistaken.

2). Can you please explain to me how Embassy security can be considered non-discretionary security spending?

Regardless, Ryan never proposed cutting Embassy security spending. Thus, the statement is still false.

3). Can you cite where you got this information from please (regarding religious exemption, I've read that there's an incredibly narrow exemption currently)? The CHA recently pulled support for Obamacare due to the contraception plan.

4). Isn't that what I posted? "Biden actually voted in favor of both wars."

5). What you're saying is that the money spent on Obamacare would cost HMO's more money...and if they spend it on Medicare instead of Obamacare how would that negatively impact patients? Please elaborate.

1. Hence why I said his statement was false.

2. Because it is? It is anything in the Federal budget that isn't Defense and National Security, Social Security, and health care. Why it isn't under defense, I have no idea. Ryan's lack of specifications could mean that he will cut none of embassy security, or he will cut all of it. We don't know, so assuming it will be spread out evenly over everything falling into non-discretionary spending is reasonable. You're being silly.

3. Politico

4. Yes, I'm agreeing with you.

5. The money being taken form Medicare comes largely from subsidies to Medicare Advantage, a subset of programs ran by private insurers that started under the Bush administration. It's goal was to have insurers under Medicare Advantage compete with each other to have lower prices, but how successful that was is questionable.

2). I don't believe it's reasonable to assume he'll cut everything when that clearly isn't his intent. The Romney-Ryan budget plan is easily accessed online (in pdf form) and it makes no mention of Embassy cuts or across the board cuts. Thus, Biden's assertion that he will cut everything is unreasonable and unfounded.

3). I've looked at that article and it states that only certain institutions are exempt, it doesn't specify which institutions, and private employers are not exempt. This still creates a conundrum of sorts, as you an see, because these private employers are still required to provide contraceptives regardless of their religious beliefs and there are still religious institutions that are required to as well.

5). Getting back to the original statement...Biden's assertion that they saved money was unfounded. Regardless of Romney/Ryan's plan to put the money into medicare and speculations on how much this would cost patients. Do you agree?

2. If a general lack of information (because the budget plan does not in fact mention any specifics of what it will cut under the non-discretionary spending aside from that it will be cutting non-discretionary spending) is Romeny/Ryan's defense, there's not really any argument the opposing side can give because there is nothing to argue against.

3. Yes, I already mentioned that private employers are not excluded in my original response.

5. Here's the logic in plain terms: HMOs saving money through subsidies but not passing on the savings to patients? Fuck that. Patients saving money directly through subsidies and leaving HMOs out to dry? Fuck yeah.

1). Overseas soldiers weren't among the constituents he was addressing...He was clearly referring to people at home. Regardless, he apologized for the remark and said it was "not elegantly stated." Kind of like Biden's remark about "putting yall back in chains."

2). Did you look at the plan? No specific cuts to non-discretionary security was recommended. If there were no specific cuts, how can you assume they will cut everything? Biden specifically cited cuts to Embassy security as well...

"Number one, the — this lecture on embassy security — the congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for, number one. So much for the embassy security piece."

3). So we can agree that Biden's remark on this subject was false, correct? Given the fact that private employers and some religious organizations are still required to provides contraceptives.

5). I understood your statement...and it's irrelevant to my original remark that $700 billion was not saved.

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#146  Edited By Jams

@Flawed_System said:

1). Overseas soldiers weren't among the constituents he was addressing...He was clearly referring to people at home. Regardless, he apologized for the remark and said it was "not elegantly stated." Kind of like Biden's remark about "putting yall back in chains."

I think you're right. He uses 47% as a generic term (which kind of bit him in the ass) but he narrows it down a bit when he mentions their "mind set". For instance he says they are dependent on the government and think they're victims. So you should only think that what he says applies to people who sit at home expecting to be treated like kings without doing anything. So he's telling these people (at the fundraiser) that they aren't going to vote for him (Romney) no matter what. So he's not going to try and get their vote. He's going to instead concentrate his campaign on people who are on the fence about money economic issues. Just like Obama wouldn't try to pander to those right wing nut jobs. Why waste your campaign money on idiots who are never going to vote for you in the first place? Romney is speaking to campaign contributors after all. So it's not far fetched to assume he's letting them know how he's going to spend their money.