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#1 Posted by Legion_ (1557 posts) -

Since 'Zero Dark Thirty' came out in theathres, there's been an ongoing discussion about torture. Some believe that the movie is pro torture, and some believe it is against torture (I think it's against, and I don't understand how people see it any other way). Personally, I'm a huge supporter of Michael Moore, and I follow him on both Twitter and Facebook. Yesterday, he wrote a piece on Facebook regarding the film and torture in general.

I thought he made some super important points that show why torture isn't a legit way to go about things.

  • When torturing captivies, there's maybe one guy who knows the truth, and still they are torturing a hundred guys. That leaves you in a situation where the one guy actually tells the truth, and the 99 other guys make up a lie to stop the torture. How do you know who the one guy is?
  • There are crazy rapists and pedophiles out there, and they are the scum of the earth. Cut their nutsacks off and they won't rape again, right? Do we do that? No, of course not, because it's morally wrong.
  • Death penalty. That sure works. Put a guy in a room and gas him to death, and you know he'll never kill again. But still, most people don't approve of that, because it's morally wrong. But where they do allow this, they become murderers in the process of stopping a murderer. Oh, the irony is sweet.

Anyway, as Moore goes on to say, the question shouldn't be if torture works or not, the question should be, is torture right? The answer in my book will also be no. Always. If you support torture, I think one day you'll wake up, look yourself in the mirror, and realize that you are the very problem you are trying to stop.

I'll leave you with a fine quote from Michael Moore's article.

But back to the controversy and the torture. I guess where I part with most of my friends who are upset at this film is that they are allowing the wrong debate to take place. You should NEVER engage in a debate where the other side defines the terms of the debate – namely, in this case, to debate "whether torture works." You should refuse to participate in that discussion because the real question should be, simply, "is torture wrong?" And, after watching the brutal behavior of CIA agents for the first 45 minutes of the film, I can't believe anyone of conscience would conclude anything other than that this is morally NOT right. You will be repulsed by these torture scenes because, make no mistake about it, this has been done in your name and mine and with our tax dollars. We funded this.

#2 Posted by Legion_ (1557 posts) -

Since 'Zero Dark Thirty' came out in theathres, there's been an ongoing discussion about torture. Some believe that the movie is pro torture, and some believe it is against torture (I think it's against, and I don't understand how people see it any other way). Personally, I'm a huge supporter of Michael Moore, and I follow him on both Twitter and Facebook. Yesterday, he wrote a piece on Facebook regarding the film and torture in general.

I thought he made some super important points that show why torture isn't a legit way to go about things.

  • When torturing captivies, there's maybe one guy who knows the truth, and still they are torturing a hundred guys. That leaves you in a situation where the one guy actually tells the truth, and the 99 other guys make up a lie to stop the torture. How do you know who the one guy is?
  • There are crazy rapists and pedophiles out there, and they are the scum of the earth. Cut their nutsacks off and they won't rape again, right? Do we do that? No, of course not, because it's morally wrong.
  • Death penalty. That sure works. Put a guy in a room and gas him to death, and you know he'll never kill again. But still, most people don't approve of that, because it's morally wrong. But where they do allow this, they become murderers in the process of stopping a murderer. Oh, the irony is sweet.

Anyway, as Moore goes on to say, the question shouldn't be if torture works or not, the question should be, is torture right? The answer in my book will also be no. Always. If you support torture, I think one day you'll wake up, look yourself in the mirror, and realize that you are the very problem you are trying to stop.

I'll leave you with a fine quote from Michael Moore's article.

But back to the controversy and the torture. I guess where I part with most of my friends who are upset at this film is that they are allowing the wrong debate to take place. You should NEVER engage in a debate where the other side defines the terms of the debate – namely, in this case, to debate "whether torture works." You should refuse to participate in that discussion because the real question should be, simply, "is torture wrong?" And, after watching the brutal behavior of CIA agents for the first 45 minutes of the film, I can't believe anyone of conscience would conclude anything other than that this is morally NOT right. You will be repulsed by these torture scenes because, make no mistake about it, this has been done in your name and mine and with our tax dollars. We funded this.
#3 Posted by Krullban (1062 posts) -

Depends on who is being tortured.

#4 Edited by Pr1mus (3946 posts) -

Nothing is ever black or white.

No in most cases but there's always gonna be that one exception here or there where it may be the only possible way to stop something or someone.

Edit: For those who will continue to debate this, don't quote or @reply to me. I really don't care enough about any of this to debate this with anyone on a giant bomb forum. I especially don't care at all about people who will deal in absolute about this and judge one's character and label me or others who dared present a caveat to the question as monsters that deserves to be tortured. If you are like that you are wasting everybody's time. Thank you.

#5 Posted by UlquioKani (1182 posts) -

Fuck no.

Online
#6 Posted by Legion_ (1557 posts) -

@Krullban said:

Depends on who is being tortured.

Wrong answer.

@UlquioKani said:

Fuck no.

Right answer.

#7 Posted by Pr1mus (3946 posts) -

@Legion_ said:

@Krullban said:

Depends on who is being tortured.

Wrong answer.

@UlquioKani said:

Fuck no.

Right answer.

You've really made a poor start to this thing if you're gonna say there's a right and wrong answer.

I guess you ended the discussion before it even began.

#8 Posted by GunslingerPanda (4859 posts) -

"And, after watching the brutal behavior of CIA agents for the first 45 minutes of the film."

This guy sounds like a moron if he let's a movie dictate his opinion.

As for the poll: I don't care.

#9 Posted by Legion_ (1557 posts) -

@Pr1mus: I think I made my opinion rather clear in the OP.

#10 Posted by buft (3320 posts) -

Torture offers no way forward for the person being tortured but offering the information the person wants, whats the point just follow through on your theory if you are so dedicated to that single path.

#11 Posted by McGhee (6075 posts) -

Torture has always been primarily used for obtaining confessions and as a threat toward populations.

The whole "there is a nuke about to go off and you have to torture a guy's children for the location" scenario is bullshit and has never happened and will never happen.

#12 Posted by Natesaint (146 posts) -

Depends on the situation I suppose. Unless you've been there I don't think one can form a proper opinion. I haven't been in that situation, and I'm not about to go gung ho in favor for or against it.

#13 Posted by Neurotic (632 posts) -

Um, no. You know that Universal Declaration of Human Rights thing? Yeah, I think it's pretty good. The Geneva Convention too. So, no to the torture thing.

#14 Posted by Bwast (1342 posts) -

@Pr1mus said:

Nothing is ever black or white.

No in most cases but there's always gonna be that one exception here or there where it may be the online possible way to stop something or someone.

Good job.

#15 Posted by Animasta (14719 posts) -

torture doesn't work because at some point you'd want to say anything that will cause the pain to stop even if you don't actually know.

Online
#16 Posted by Pr1mus (3946 posts) -

@Bwast said:

@Pr1mus said:

Nothing is ever black or white.

No in most cases but there's always gonna be that one exception here or there where it may be the online possible way to stop something or someone.

Good job.

You know that's the point of the word "may" as in maybe, or may not, who knows for sure. You know, gray areas.

#17 Posted by Milkman (17316 posts) -

No, I don't. For pretty much the same reasons in the OP.

#18 Posted by ShadowConqueror (3085 posts) -

No, but I think I'd make a great torturer.

#19 Posted by FancySoapsMan (5818 posts) -

nope.

if the US is to use its laws an ideals as a moral standard, then I think it should apply them to its enemies as well.

#20 Posted by pakalolobro420 (42 posts) -

naw man thts not cool we need more peace and love

#21 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

It's alright if the good guys are doing it!

#22 Posted by crusader8463 (14429 posts) -

Only between two consenting adults. If you are referring to the arrest and torture thing, then no.

#23 Posted by Reki (15 posts) -

@Pr1mus said:

@Bwast said:

@Pr1mus said:

Nothing is ever black or white.

No in most cases but there's always gonna be that one exception here or there where it may be the online possible way to stop something or someone.

Good job.

You know that's the point of the word "may" as in maybe, or may not, who knows for sure. You know, gray areas.

Pretty sure he was trying to point out how you wrote "online" instead of "only".

#24 Posted by Jim_the_Corsair (8 posts) -

Torture is absolutely wrong and is morally reprehensible. Sometimes in life, doing the absolutely wrong thing that is morally reprehensible is necessary for a greater purpose. It's not nice, it's not right, but there it is.

#25 Posted by No0b0rAmA (1478 posts) -

Ahem, it's called enhanced interrogation.

#26 Posted by Pr1mus (3946 posts) -

@Reki said:

@Pr1mus said:

@Bwast said:

@Pr1mus said:

Nothing is ever black or white.

No in most cases but there's always gonna be that one exception here or there where it may be the online possible way to stop something or someone.

Good job.

You know that's the point of the word "may" as in maybe, or may not, who knows for sure. You know, gray areas.

Pretty sure he was trying to point out how you wrote "online" instead of "only".

It is now fixed and shall live on for eternity within the confines of these quotes.

#27 Posted by SuperFusion (44 posts) -

You may have made your opinion clear, but it seems like anyone who disagrees with your opinion is automatically wrong. You don't really want a discussion, you just want the satisfaction of people agreeing with you. Torture is wrong no matter what, but as some people have said, it's not always black and white. In the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, prisoners (most of them innocent) were living in horrible conditions and tortured and humiliated in sadistic ways. (Search Abu Ghraib photos for a quick glimpse) These were American soldiers who tortured innocent people. I read a book called The Lucifer Effect: How Good People Turn Evil by Philip Zimbardo, who is a famous social psychologist and creator of the Stanford Prison Experiment. In his book, he stated that most of the men and women who tortured these prisoners weren't bad people, and weren't sadistic when they enlisted. They turned out badly because of their environment that they were in. Same thing happened with the SPE. The torture wasn't as extreme or intense as Abu Ghraib, but it definitely was there. Basically, torture isn't right no matter how you try to justify it. However, it can pop up within each and every one of us if certain key elements are in place and whether or not your personality leans towards more violent methods.

#28 Posted by habster3 (3600 posts) -

Really depends on the person (Are we talking about Hitler here? Stalin?)

For most people, though, I'd say no.

#29 Posted by Legion_ (1557 posts) -

@No0b0rAmA said:

Ahem, it's called enhanced interrogation.

Fuck me backwards.

#30 Posted by OmegaChosen (647 posts) -

@Legion_ said:

@No0b0rAmA said:

Ahem, it's called enhanced interrogation.

Fuck me backwards.

You should really buy him dinner first.

#31 Posted by TyCobb (1973 posts) -

@Pr1mus said:

@Legion_ said:

@Krullban said:

Depends on who is being tortured.

Wrong answer.

@UlquioKani said:

Fuck no.

Right answer.

You've really made a poor start to this thing if you're gonna say there's a right and wrong answer.

I guess you ended the discussion before it even began.

@Legion_ said:

@Pr1mus: I think I made my opinion rather clear in the OP.

How can you call it an opinion when you are stating it as a fact? Also, there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to this question. The right answer is the answer the user gives since you asked if they support it. Unless they are lying, it is correct.

#32 Posted by DarthOrange (3893 posts) -

Michael Moore is a thick headed asshole who only wants to see things his way.
 
@Legion_ said:

@Krullban said:

Depends on who is being tortured.

Wrong answer.

@UlquioKani said:

Fuck no.

Right answer.

I can see why you like him. 
 
@Pr1mus said: 

You've really made a poor start to this thing if you're gonna say there's a right and wrong answer.

I guess you ended the discussion before it even began.

#33 Posted by Legion_ (1557 posts) -

@SuperFusion: I don't need the satisfaction of people agreeing with me. However, I am on a mission to civilize, and that leads me to the fact that there is only one conclusion to this discussion. Torture is bad, always.

If people want to offer their opinion, they are free to do so, and I don't think anyone is bothered by me voicing my opinion.

#34 Posted by OmegaChosen (647 posts) -

@Legion_ said:

@SuperFusion: I don't need the satisfaction of people agreeing with me. However, I am on a mission to civilize, and that leads me to the fact that there is only one conclusion to this discussion. Torture is bad, always.

If people want to offer their opinion, they are free to do so, and I don't think anyone is bothered by me voicing my opinion.

Nobody wants your help.

#35 Posted by Bwast (1342 posts) -

@Pr1mus said:

@Bwast said:

@Pr1mus said:

Nothing is ever black or white.

No in most cases but there's always gonna be that one exception here or there where it may be the online possible way to stop something or someone.

Good job.

You know that's the point of the word "may" as in maybe, or may not, who knows for sure. You know, gray areas.

That's a black or white situation. Torture is the only possible way or it isn't. There are no absolutes in grey areas.

#36 Posted by LaserLambert (172 posts) -

why would you include those 3 bullet points from Michael Moore? those were horrifyingly stupid ways to say absolutely nothing about a controversial subject.

#37 Posted by Butano (1789 posts) -

@Legion_ said:

@Krullban said:

Depends on who is being tortured.

Wrong answer.

@UlquioKani said:

Fuck no.

Right answer.

I found this rather funny after your Michael Moore quote

You should NEVER engage in a debate where the other side defines the terms of the debate

As for my answer....

In some very rare cases, it's a necessary evil. Do I think it should be our first strategy? Of course not, but then again, would we have gotten Bin Laden as fast as we did had we not used it? This is not a simple black and white answer.

#38 Posted by egg (1469 posts) -

@LaserLambert said:

why would you include those 3 bullet points from Michael Moore? those were horrifyingly stupid ways to say absolutely nothing about a controversial subject.

why? they seemed like pretty sound points to me.. Except that point 1 was arguing the effectiveness of torture, then he goes to say that whether or not torture works shouldn't be a factor. O.o

#39 Posted by coakroach (2492 posts) -

No.

Mainly because in the few situations where someone might convince themselves it's morally acceptable (lives at stake, clock is ticking etc.) it's been shown, by studies that I cant properly cite because i'm posting an argument on the internet, to be ineffective.

#40 Posted by TMBaker (232 posts) -

Think what you want about Jesse Ventura but he's on the money on this one.

#41 Posted by Legion_ (1557 posts) -

@OmegaChosen said:

@Legion_ said:

@SuperFusion: I don't need the satisfaction of people agreeing with me. However, I am on a mission to civilize, and that leads me to the fact that there is only one conclusion to this discussion. Torture is bad, always.

If people want to offer their opinion, they are free to do so, and I don't think anyone is bothered by me voicing my opinion.

Nobody wants your help.

Yet most need it.

#42 Posted by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

People are idiots.

#43 Edited by Getz (3155 posts) -

I think the question you're asking will lead many people to say no. Most people do not like the idea of torture, certainly not the idea of being tortured themselves so they will say they do not support it as an idea unto itself. If you were to ask "what are some alternatives to torture" or maybe "is water-boarding torture" then you'll be getting to some meaningful answers. For the record, I don't think water-boarding is the same as, say, prying someone's fingernails off or otherwise harming them physically.

Michael Moore is basically equating psychological manipulation with gassing someone to death or cutting their balls off. That right there is reason enough to stop listening to him. I think he's a hack and a sensationalist. "Torture" is wrong just like "war," "poverty" and "sadness" are wrong but complaining about them without offering any solutions is just fucking worthless.

#44 Posted by OmegaChosen (647 posts) -

@Legion_ said:

@OmegaChosen said:

@Legion_ said:

@SuperFusion: I don't need the satisfaction of people agreeing with me. However, I am on a mission to civilize, and that leads me to the fact that there is only one conclusion to this discussion. Torture is bad, always.

If people want to offer their opinion, they are free to do so, and I don't think anyone is bothered by me voicing my opinion.

Nobody wants your help.

Yet most need it.

Must be such a burden for you to spread your good word.

#45 Edited by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

@Getz: Who even cares what the severity of the torture is? All torture is neanderthalic.

I shoot you in the left leg and then point the gun at your right. I say if you don't tell me the name of the leader of your terrorist cell I'll keep putting bullets in you until I get a name. You aren't a terrorist, you don't know what this man's name is or what he is even wanted for, and you definitely don't know why anyone would think you knew this information. You fail to say anything as all these thoughts are racing through your head and after a few minutes I put another bullet in you.

Do you give me a name or do you abide by the actual truth, that you don't know anything?

#46 Posted by JazzyJeff (403 posts) -

@Getz: Waterboarding is arguably worse than doing physical harm because you are being drowned.

#47 Edited by Sanity (1950 posts) -

Depends on the circumstances and the person. i think it has a place in very rare cases.

The big issue is that its hard to draw the line with how far your willing to go, I love the movie Unthinkable as it shows how dark it can get when you keep trying to outdo yourself.

#48 Posted by JaredA (830 posts) -

Fuck no! What kind of question is this?!

#49 Posted by I_Stay_Puft (3810 posts) -

Wait a minute, is this a trick question?

#50 Posted by lexyz123 (17 posts) -

Meh, like some guys before me said, it ain´t black or white, i voted yes because lets face it, without torture we wouldn't have these nice warm governments and democracies we always try to defend so much. whether if it is morally right or wrong, its really not that important.