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#1 Edited by ImaLizard (88 posts) -
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#2 Posted by N7 (4147 posts) -

Islamic Batman is losing this battle. :(

Shoulda had a V8.

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#3 Posted by Giantstalker (2117 posts) -

I wonder how great the NATO air involvement will be praised, or scorned, by the rebels now that they've finally taken Tripoli...

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#4 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7097 posts) -

Hopefully this all ends with a stable, fair government. God do I hope so much for this to end well.

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#5 Posted by mylifeforAiur (3492 posts) -

Hell, it's about time.

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#6 Posted by Dany (8018 posts) -

About damn time. I hope this ends well.

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#7 Posted by Tim_the_Corsair (3053 posts) -

Stay tuned as the former rebel leadership become Gaddafi v2.0 and begin their own brand of crushing military dictatorship!

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#8 Edited by Black_Rose (7772 posts) -
 @MariachiMacabre said:

Hopefully this all ends with a stable, fair government. God do I hope so much for this to end well.

 
@Tim_the_Corsair said:

Stay tuned as the former rebel leadership become Gaddafi v2.0 and begin their own brand of crushing military dictatorship!

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#9 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7097 posts) -

@Tim_the_Corsair said:

Stay tuned as the former rebel leadership become Gaddafi v2.0 and begin their own brand of crushing military dictatorship!

I really, really, really hope you're wrong.

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#10 Posted by august (3993 posts) -

I'm really glad they captured Saif. That man is a snake.

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#11 Edited by Black_Rose (7772 posts) -
@MariachiMacabre: This is the political MO for most arabic and African nations, it will more than likely happen. 
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#12 Posted by Claude (16648 posts) -

I remember when Gaddafi got bombed in 1986. I was in the US Navy. Of course, the only action I saw was a tv screen while in a bar, but it was free drinks all around.

I hope it turns out well for the people.

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#13 Posted by tunaburn (2016 posts) -

gaddafi being forced out by other crazy people will result in another crazy person taking over.
we can just hope not as crazy? or at least one that understands nato and the countries involved really are on their side.

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#14 Edited by deathstriker666 (1349 posts) -
@MariachiMacabre said:

@Tim_the_Corsair said:

Stay tuned as the former rebel leadership become Gaddafi v2.0 and begin their own brand of crushing military dictatorship!

I really, really, really hope you're wrong.

Happens all the time. Toppled dictatorship, new struggle for power between rival ethnic, military, and political groups. One group climbs up to be the new victor, though is unable to control dissent. Martial law is declared and a new regime is built.
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#15 Posted by Black_Rose (7772 posts) -
@tunaburn said:
at least one that understands nato and the countries involved really are on their side.
Thanks for the laugh. I'm sure all the bodies of all the dead civilians killed during NATO bombings will help them understand that. 
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#16 Edited by MariachiMacabre (7097 posts) -

@deathstriker666 said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

@Tim_the_Corsair said:

Stay tuned as the former rebel leadership become Gaddafi v2.0 and begin their own brand of crushing military dictatorship!

I really, really, really hope you're wrong.

Happens all the time. Toppled dictatorship, new struggle for power between rival ethnic, military, and political groups. One group climbs to be the new victor, though is unable to control dissent. Martial law is declared and a new regime is built.

I know it does. I would just like to see one country in the Middle East or Africa not turn out that way.

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#17 Posted by tunaburn (2016 posts) -
@Black_Rose: youre one of those stupid we cant win with either way people.
if we didnt help everyone would cry and gadaffi would still be there. we try our best to help and yes civilian casualites are part of war
but now were evil still. thats why i say let em all just kill each other.
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#18 Posted by Black_Rose (7772 posts) -
@tunaburn: Nobody was complaning when you weren't there. 
 
Also, you're ignorant if you really think it's about helping those people.
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#19 Posted by Chirotera (57 posts) -
@MariachiMacabre said:

@deathstriker666 said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

@Tim_the_Corsair said:

Stay tuned as the former rebel leadership become Gaddafi v2.0 and begin their own brand of crushing military dictatorship!

I really, really, really hope you're wrong.

Happens all the time. Toppled dictatorship, new struggle for power between rival ethnic, military, and political groups. One group climbs to be the new victor, though is unable to control dissent. Martial law is declared and a new regime is built.

I know it does. I would just like to see one country in the Middle East not turn out that way.

Libya isn't in the Middle East - it's North African.
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#20 Posted by Turambar (7936 posts) -
@Black_Rose said:
@tunaburn: Nobody was complaning when you weren't there.  Also, you're ignorant if you really think it's about helping those people.
You missed the part where the rebels were demanding foreign intervention when Gaddafi's forces were marching on their main city's doors.  They were in fact complaining that "we" weren't there.
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#21 Posted by FancySoapsMan (5915 posts) -
@Black_Rose said:
@tunaburn: Nobody was complaning when you weren't there.  Also, you're ignorant if you really think it's about helping those people.
You realize that the rebels complained that there weren't enough air strikes right?
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#22 Posted by Black_Rose (7772 posts) -
@Turambar: Of course they would, but the rebels are not the majority.  
 
If you really look at what's going around, you'd see that people in Myanmar and Sudan among others have way worse livestyle than people in Irak, Lybia or Iran ever did, and you don't see western nations jumping to the rescue.  
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#23 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7097 posts) -

@Chirotera said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

@deathstriker666 said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

@Tim_the_Corsair said:

Stay tuned as the former rebel leadership become Gaddafi v2.0 and begin their own brand of crushing military dictatorship!

I really, really, really hope you're wrong.

Happens all the time. Toppled dictatorship, new struggle for power between rival ethnic, military, and political groups. One group climbs to be the new victor, though is unable to control dissent. Martial law is declared and a new regime is built.

I know it does. I would just like to see one country in the Middle East not turn out that way.

Libya isn't in the Middle East - it's North African.

Yeah, I know. My bad, but it's the same basic concept. They all seem to be in the same boat.

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#24 Posted by Yamoto (118 posts) -

Its true the people of libya hates Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi 
 
  

  
1 million pro gaddafi marching on the green squre (the libyan pop is 6 mil) 
 
 
Also really  
wikipedia? 
CNN?  
aljazeera? 
can it be filled with more pro western propeganda? well maby fox 
 
Go read some real news 
http://whatreallyhappened.com/ 
  
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#25 Posted by Capum15 (5529 posts) -
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#26 Posted by Black_Rose (7772 posts) -
@Yamoto: You're guilty yourself of reading too much anti-western news.  
 
In media it's either one extreme or the other. 
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#27 Posted by Turambar (7936 posts) -
@Black_Rose said:
@Turambar: Of course they would, but the rebels are not the majority.   If you really look at what's going around, you'd see that people in Myanmar and Sudan among others have way worse livestyle than people in Irak, Lybia or Iran ever did, and you don't see western nations jumping to the rescue.  
No one is arguing that this was done purely out of humanitarian obligations.  However, when one tries to argue against acts that have humanitarian results even as a by product (in this case the prevention of the massacre of an entire city), they are deemed idiotic.
 
Also, I wasn't aware that there were any reliable statistics on who is in the majority in Libya, making that line of argument pointless.
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#28 Edited by Black_Rose (7772 posts) -
@Turambar: Just because you aren't aware of it doesn't make it pointless. A million people marching pro Gadaffi in Tripoli alone in a six million people country is quite a fucking lot.   
 
Not to mention that 90% of the Tribes are also in favor of Gadaffi.  
 
Also, what exactly is the humanitarian result here? Installing a pro-western government that will suck the nation's resources dry? or Installing a new, possibly worse dictatorship as has been the case countless of other times? 
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#29 Posted by Turambar (7936 posts) -
@Black_Rose said:
@Turambar: Just because you aren't aware of it doesn't make it pointless. A million people marching pro Gadaffi in Tripoli alone in a six million people country is quite a fucking lot.    Not to mention that 90% of the Tribes are also in favor of Gadaffi. 
Actually it does.  Of the two examples you listed, the former is unreliable because its easy to support something when to go against it means death.  The latter is unreliable because the various tribes are pragmatic in their support, and will switch allegiances if a new regime with a strong military arm pops up.
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#30 Posted by Yamoto (118 posts) -
@Black_Rose: What antiwestern news? the only news i read is RT(Russian news channel) and vg (Norways biggest news website Its pretty much pro everything west) also i do read on http://whatreallyhappened.com/ (they are pretty much anti everything) 
I do think i get the full picture  
all sides always try to sell you its propeganda  
But even WRH have normally some basis on fact while cnn and fox news spreads its lies aka just recently both where reporting the buses witch where attacked in Israel where ``civilian`` while in fact it was filled with off duty soilders  
LIES
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#31 Posted by Black_Rose (7772 posts) -
@Turambar: The thing is, you don't really know if going against it means death beyond what you've been fed by the media. I'm not saying Gadaffi is a saint, but I live in a country where the government has been demonized internationally and called a billion different evil things. I've seen how twisted the media can be when refering to something they don't like and I've seen people going to march not because they have a gun pointed to their heads, but because they want to show their support. So it's easier for me to see the other side of the coin. 
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#32 Posted by Turambar (7936 posts) -
@Black_Rose said:
@Turambar: Also, what exactly is the humanitarian result here? Installing a pro-western government that will suck the nation's resources dry? or Installing a new, possibly worse dictatorship as has been the case countless of other times? 
I just mentioned it in the parentheses.  If Gaddafi took Benghazi, I think we can all agree that the city would have seen a massacre.  I also hope we agree that massacres are bad.
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#33 Edited by Turambar (7936 posts) -
@Black_Rose said:

@Turambar: The thing is, you don't really know if going against it means death beyond what you've been fed by the media. I'm not saying Gadaffi is a saint, but I live in a country where the government has been demonized internationally and called a billion different evil things. I've seen how twisted the media can be when refering to something they don't like and I've seen people going to march not because they have a gun pointed to their heads, but because they want to show their support. So it's easier for me to see the other side of the coin. 

Yes, much of the media I consume, simply as a matter of location, has a pro-western filter on it.  Though just for the record I also do watch Al Jazeera and Sino Vision.  That said, a biased filter doesn't really alter the fact that the initial February protests caused by the Arab Spring was cracked down upon violently resulting in many deaths.  Those basic facts don't really change.
 
And hey, you're not the only one on the receiving end of pro-western propaganda.  I'm Chinese, and despite currently living in the US, I am still a Chinese citizen with plenty of contact with my family there as well as first hand knowledge of the years I spent there before moving across the ocean.  But we all know what the media perception of that country is, right? And you know what?  A lot of them are earned.  A lot are not, but it's in fact not all lies.
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#34 Posted by Yamoto (118 posts) -
@Turambar said:
@Black_Rose said:
@Turambar: Also, what exactly is the humanitarian result here? Installing a pro-western government that will suck the nation's resources dry? or Installing a new, possibly worse dictatorship as has been the case countless of other times? 
I just mentioned it in the parentheses.  If Gaddafi took Benghazi, I think we can all agree that the city would have seen a massacre.  I also hope we agree that massacres are bad.
 
Yeah becuse Gaddafi hates the libyan people and they hate him 

 
And they hate him
 
  
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#35 Posted by Black_Rose (7772 posts) -
@Turambar: Yes, the facts don't change. Like the fact that the rebels have destroyed millions of businesses in their raids or that NATO has killed hundreds of civillians. We can also agree that massacres are bad, just like the one that would happen to every hardcore Gadaffi follower if the rebellion takes over. There's no humanitarian result here. 
 
But I'm not gonna argue anymore, nothing good is bound to come from this.   
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#36 Posted by tunaburn (2016 posts) -
@Turambar: exactly.... jesus people are insane.  theyll argue there point even when it makes no sense!
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#37 Posted by tunaburn (2016 posts) -
@FancySoapsMan: another man that at least reads up on what hes discussing or has some knowledge before spouting off. thank you
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#38 Posted by ryanwho (12012 posts) -

Someone actually called Al Jazeera pro-west propaganda. That happened. Glorious.

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#39 Posted by MikeinSC (1079 posts) -
@MariachiMacabre said:

Hopefully this all ends with a stable, fair government. God do I hope so much for this to end well.

Hopefully.
 
History indicates...that isn't happening.
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#40 Posted by Meowshi (2917 posts) -
@MariachiMacabre said:

Hopefully this all ends with a stable, fair government. God do I hope so much for this to end well.

Hahahahahaha!   
 
*snort*
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#41 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7097 posts) -

@MikeinSC said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

Hopefully this all ends with a stable, fair government. God do I hope so much for this to end well.

Hopefully. History indicates...that isn't happening.

Yep. Pretty clearly, too.

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#42 Posted by kingcopper (50 posts) -
 

More from our correspondent Matthew Price. He says Saif al-Islam appeared buoyed up and confident when he arrived at the hotel. Asked where he believed the balance of power lay, he said: "We have broken the backbone of the rebels. It was a trap. We gave them a hard time, so we're winning".

 
 
From the BBC page. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14610722