@Inkerman said:
@No0b0rAmA said:
@Inkerman said:
@murisan said:
@Inkerman said:
Yeah, unlike Iraq where the advice was that Iraq 'probably' had chemical weapons, we know the Syrians have weapons. The key question is whether or not they're going to use them or lose control over them. In either case I think its imperative the US do something. Frankly I think very little of people who are perfectly willing to watch thousands of people be murdered because they're worried about their bottom line.
Ah yes, you think little of me for considering the inevitable backlash if my country DOES intervene? So you are saying it's a necessary evil for the US to intervene in this situation?
On the contrary I don't view it as evil at all, nor, if carried out correctly, do I expect there to be a backlash. For example in Iraq, the invasion and toppling of Saddam was massively popular in Iraq, and carried out extremely effectively. It was subsequent failures after the war that caused problems, not the war itself. IMO it is the responsibility of the US to overthrow these violent, destabilising dictators from both a moral perspective (the weaker argument) and a larger geopolitical standpoint (an extremely strong argument).
I disagree that the Assad regime is a destabilizing factor the region, in fact I'd argue that an isolationist dictatorship is much better than a mess of a country that breeds Islamic extremism. The regime has kept to themselves, in fact when their nuclear program got destroy by Israeli surgical strikes, they just covered it up with no retaliation. The regime probably has no interest in getting any attention from the outside world. The outcome of a rebel victory probably will only lead to chaos and more violence.
If the U.S. does intervene, I hope they don't limit U.S. missions to air strikes or non-direct combat roles. They need be able to hold sway of Syria post-war to be able to create a functioning democracy that is friendly to the west, which is only possible by introducing ground troops mid-conflict.
Agreed, Assad was a stabilising factor, he now is not. There are different types of dictatorships, and the decisions of whether or not to topple them. The first is the kind of dictator Assad was, where he rules with a strong hand, but ultimately keeps the local psychos in check and doesn't try and rock the boat too much (eg; war on Israel), Mubarak was the same as are the Gulf dictators. The second kind is the destabilising dictator, like Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Il, they are particularly brutal and enjoy rocking the boat a lot and making it unpleasant for everyone else and occasionally use the local psychos to do their bidding. These guys do need to be taken out (read: US led invasion), it's just a question of when. The problem with Assad right now is that his regime is terminal. If he could magically regain control then everybody would probably treat him like the asehole he is for 5-10 years and then ease sanctions under some kind of 'rebuilding relations' bullshit and the media would talk about people 'coming in from the cold' alot, just like is what happening with Burma. The problem is (and this was also Ghaddafi's problem) is that in order to regain power, Assad needs to commit human rights abuses (kill just a fuck tonne of people) on a level which is unacceptable anywhere except Rwanda, and would draw in a military intervention anyway.
Another point to make is that we don't know that Syria would become an Islamist dictatorship, for example Iraq hasn't and Egypt probably won't (despite the best efforts of the Muslim Brotherhood), and even if it did, that is still preferable to Syria just becoming a failed state of rival factions. This is part of the reason that an Islamist dictatorship probably won't emerge, because if we assume that it would be Sunni led, then while they are the majority, they'll have to deal with the Kurds (who armed to the teeth), Christians (who have substantial international sympathy) and Shiites and Alawites, both of which have backing in Iran and Lebanon, not to mention you have Turkey sitting right above you screaming for stability.
I think the main difference between Assad compared to Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Il is the fact that the Syrian regime simply doesn't try to attract American attention like Iraq or North Korea. Iraq with it's invasion of Kuwait, and it's frequent use of chemical weapons and North Korea with nuclear weapons and constant provocation, directly threatened U.S. interests, while Syria has not. Syria on the other hand tries to minimize any sort of actions that could bring it attention from Western powers. It likes to take an ideological hardline, but it really has nothing to show for it other than supplying Hezbollah, which even that is significantly less then Iran. That said, I do agree that unless the regime gets any significant support and/or the support for the rebels miraculously stop, he doesn't have a good chance of keeping control.
I'd say that unless the U.S. takes a significant role in Syria, it probably won't make any sort of transition into a democracy. In Iraq had the U.S. stopping the worst parts of it's sectarian violence with the troop surge in '07, where without it, the semblance of a government it had would have fallen apart. Egypt on the other hand went through a rather peaceful transition, and has the benefits of being a rather homogeneous country, where even with religion, it lacks the various ethnic groups to incite violence. Syria almost seems like a worst case scenario without some sort of outside power to control the country post civil war. Unless the U.S. can mold a democratic, moderate/secular government that is friendly to the interests of the western world, it might turn out like Iraq if U.S. troops weren't there to stop the sectarian violence.
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