What do you think about terrible people, great artists?

Recent anecdote Austin told about Ken Levine on the beastcast and an old bombcast I listened to just now where Jeff calls Roman Polanski a scumbag got me thinking about something which comes up from time to time.

Great artists can sometimes be terrible people. I definitely try to separate the work from the person but often times these two are intertwined. Woody Allen for example is one of the best American directors but his infatuation with very young women is in constant display on the screen and his new film Irrational Man is no exception. I just can't help but feel uncomfortable even when I'm entertained by his writing.

Though I rationalize and enjoy the works of people I mentioned, as well as others, there is a part of me that think I'm wrong.

What do you think about great artist that are/can be terrible people?

Can't think of a time I didn't enjoy a work because of a person.

Ah, there's a Laser Time episode about this very topic!

Laser Time Episode 86

Don't mean to be a shill but I think they do a pretty good job on talking about this.

They point out that if someone is a pretty awful person you don't need to write them off but you should at least be thinking about their views when you choose to support whatever it is they create.

Kanye West immediately comes to mind

If it's something I like and I find out something about someone behind the scenes I don't care. For example Jayne is still easily my favourite Firefly character regardless what his actor thinks. That said if I'm on the fence/ambivalent about something and the creator does something stupid then it can push me off the fence towards avoiding it. For example I wasn't really for or against Fez but Phil Fish's meltdowns pushed me into the "no thanks" catagory.

I have always believed that in order to appreciate art you have to separate the creator from the work. How many beloved artists and leaders are assholes?

Chuck Berry beat his wife and was arrested for armed robbery, Roman Polanski raped a young girl, Bill Cosby... well you already know the story, Led Zeppelin stole music from unknown blues musicians without crediting them, Orson Scott Card is a homophobe, Nelson Mandela was implicated in the torture of prisoners during his time with the ANC... The list goes on.

The things they created... the way they have enriched others' lives... none of that is changed. In fact, I would argue that great works and troubled minds are linked.

Edit: How could I forget Abraham Lincoln, who advocated for preventing African Americans from voting, holding office, intermarrying or otherwise becoming equal in citizenship to whites. Does that somehow invalidate the Emancipation Proclamation?

I think it's usually easy to separate the artist from the music they write, especially if they're not a lyricist; because then their views likely won't bleed into the music (unless the actual lyricist is influenced by them or shares their views). For example, Peter Hook is one of the most immature adults I have ever witnessed, but he plays a great bass. But if Bernard Sumner turned out to have some questionable views, I'd be more conflicted about listening to his music.

But at the end of it, if I really like the song itself, I won't care about the views of the artists behind the music™.

Might want to read through this poll from a while back.

My answer then was... "I would and I have. I simply cannot separate the artist from the art." Sort of still true, though I'm a lot more accepting of art and people now than I was then. Honestly you could probably find something completely fucked up with just about any of your favorite artists so I think it's just best not to dwell on it.

This guy always comes to mind. Known as the "angry man of jazz." Supposedly, he was prone to punching fools in the face, but people seemed to put up with him because of his talent. Personally, I worked with someone who was a very talented programmer and an ass, and yes, I put up with him because I needed his talent. I let him know early on that I wouldn't put up with his shit, and eventually, he grew to respect me and treated me as a friend. Basically though, everyone put up with him because we needed him.

I kind of don't care in the grand scheme of things, but it is so common I think it is important to at least be aware of it.

Quite timely with the Hulk Hogan stuff going on. I would be very curious to hear Jeff and Dan's opinions on Hogan in light of this new stuff. Other than the basic "he's bad yup" line that a lot of people are giving out right now. Going forward it will be interesting to see how old Hogan matches and promos are looked at. Many wrestling fans already had a dislike of Hogan based on his backstage stuff, but with this new news I'm very curious what the reaction will be long term.

Death also can contribute to this. Look at the reactions to Michael Jackson in general before and after he died. He was a punchline up until the day he died, then suddenly a lot of people changed their tune.

In my own case, I am very interested in the people behind characters, movies, media, and so on. While I can obviously appreciate someone's work separate from them, I find I engage with the work a bit more if I have background on it in many cases. As @turtlebird95 said above, you could probably find cases of just about anyone doing something distasteful, and it certainly isn't limited to just artists. We are all flawed and none of us are perfect, but how much leeway is deserved when it comes to splitting the art from the artist?

@billmcneal: Kanye West is an interesting one to bring up as the way he carries himself has turned me off 100% to any of his work. He could be the new Johnny Cash and I'd never know because he's purposefully drove myself and many others away with his attitude.

I don't want to support and contribute to the wealth and/or fame of someone who is a terrible person, regardless of what they create

Ah, I don't know why, but I totally forgot about music. Weird. Yes, as far as music goes, I can't stand listening to artists who have done things to paint themselves as complete and utter assholes. There may be some outlier songs.

Not to derail this thread but on the grand scale of "terrible people", Kanye West doesn't even come close to rating. At most, you could argue that he's kind of an arrogant dick but if he's a terrible person then someone like John Lennon is the scum of the earth.

Short of being an actual criminal I've never had that hard a time of separating a person from their work, people are weird and sometimes a person who is really weird also has a talent for something that puts them in the spotlight, I would imagine most people would say/do something that draws anger if their everyday lives were being watched the way celebrities are.

It's a matter of degrees. If the person has actually been involved in crime that hurts other people, it's almost impossible for me to look over that.

Yeah, Kanye can be quite the douchebag, but his ego is par for the course in hip hop and his antics don't really hurt anyone. And yeah, he makes awesome music.

I've never been a fan of Hogan, but his selfish, racist leathery orange ass doesn't really deserve as much of an actual scrubbing from pro-wrestling history a la Chris Benoit who fucking murdered his own family.

Until I hear about Hogan actually committing a crime, I won't be joining the public crucifixion he's getting. Yeah, he's an asshole, but he's no criminal!

It depends on what they do. People tend to play like someone being a "jerk" is a reason to blacklist them, but that's pretty nonsense. I don't care really if they're a "jerk", or even if they're "weird" (Tom Cruise being a Scientologist or Paul Reubens wanking it in a public porn theater or whatever it was comes to mind).

The thing is, if you partake in their craft you are paying them because they get money from that. You support them. So, I do not support certain things. Generally things that hurt other people such as racism, abuse, pedophilia, etc.

So, when I say "Yes, it affects my ability to appreciate their work anymore" know that I only mean people who seem to be truly loathsome.

Someone mentioning Kanye West in this thread is an example of people corralling "jerks" and "weirdos" into this, and that is not something I endorse. There are even some people I believe have earned the right to be jerks (everyone has the right to be a weirdo, and most people are anyway) given what they've accomplished in their life (and interestingly most those people actually aren't jerks even if a few are), but mostly I don't think being a "jerk" or a "weirdo" needs to affect my ability to enjoy their work.

So, mostly what I'm saying is, the Tom Cruise hate is unfounded and the Mel Gibson hate makes absolute sense. Tom Cruise is still cool to watch in movies, and Mel Gibson just makes me upset. Val Kilmer was always a jerk as far as I understand, and very difficult to work with, but I can still watch movies he's in and not feel bad about it (although I always wonder what difficulty they had working with him given the stories I have heard for decades about him). He's just a jerk, though.

Hopefully that makes sense. Being a "jerk" or a "weirdo" is not enough to make me no longer appreciate someones art, but being a racist or abusive to others is.

Roman Polanski is a scumbag, for the record. Jeff's words were accurate. Unfortunately the amount of famous people that are is shocking, and often these days if you wonder "what happened to that one famous person" the answer is often "they're in jail for being a scumbag" (not always the case, but there is a large amount of them).

Maybe it's because I'm more familiar with the genre but black metal seems to take the cake as far as terrible people/great music goes. The startling number of murderers, arsonists, rapists, etc. (or the people that tacitly supported them or went to trial but weren't convicted) in the scene would give a lot of people pause. There are still a lot of ugly and regressive views being promoted by artists and musicians (the NSBM movement comes immediately to mind), and they get their fair amount of shit for it, but that doesn't stop everyone. It's relatively small in the grand scheme of things, but the foundation of the genre is rooted in a small group of people, a percentage of which were violent towards person or property.