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#1 Posted by DarthOrange (3893 posts) -

I realize that this kind of discussion can turn very nasty very quickly, but I have faith that cooler heads will prevail and an actual discussion can be had.

Yes, people still make political cartoons.

Basically the short of it is that in Arizona (and a few other states) an officer can detain you and check your immigration status. How do you Giant Bombers feel about this? Do you think it is awesome? Do you think it sucks? Do you think it is fair or unfair? Why? I'm actually interested to know what the Giant Bomb community (the greatest community on the internet) thinks about this "show me your papers" law. Here are some links to different stories so you can get more info if you want it. (Note: links not actually sponsored, but I will gladly take their money if they want to sponsor me.)

Sponsored Links

news.yahoo.com/judge-police-enforce-ariz-immigration-law-now-202059838.html - Yahoo News

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57512782/emergency-motion-filed-against-enforcing-arizona-immigration-law-show-me-your-papers-provision/ - CBS News

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/18/us/arizona-immigration/index.html - CNN U.S.

#2 Edited by Hunter5024 (5963 posts) -

I'm from Arizona, and I think it's cool that they're doing something to combat the surplus of blatant illegal immigrants walking around, but I'm not sure how I feel about the actual law. Kind of extreme, but I'm not sure how you make it less extreme and actually effective. I do wish the other states had minded their own business a little better when that law was passed. I remember when voting for it was happening, a whole bunch of bands and comics and stuff refused to play in our state out of protest. Because clearly the idiot potheads who want to go to a Cypress Hill concert are the ones who should be punished for a law passing.

#3 Posted by Vinny_Says (5721 posts) -

Sure, why not let police randomly detain people for whatever new reason lawmakers come up with. What could go wrong with that?

#4 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7099 posts) -
@Vinny_Says

Sure, why not let police randomly detain people for whatever new reason lawmakers come up with. What could go wrong with that?

Quoted for sanity.
#5 Posted by TruthTellah (9472 posts) -

@DarthOrange said:

Basically the short of it is that in Arizona (and a few other states) an officer can detain you and check your immigration status. How do you Giant Bombers feel about this? Do you think it is awesome?

I don't think it is awesome, but you should probably note that the law doesn't say they can detain you and check your immigration status without cause. It must be done as part of already enforcing other laws. In other words, you get pulled over for speeding, you're suspected in a crime, or something like that. If they then suspect that someone might have broken an immigration law and their status is in question, they must inquire as to their immigration status and get confirmation from Federal agents. It is up to Federal agents whether or not they will come down and act upon any reported undocumented immigrants, though, and they have made clear that their priority is on repeat law breakers and violent offenders, not everyday people.

Some corrupt cops can and probably will abuse this to trump up reasons to investigate someone's immigration status, but for regular, law-abiding cops, they will need to both be enforcing a law and have suspicion of a possible immigration violation. So, for the good guys, this might be alright, leading them to simply have an extra tool in facing the real problem of law-breaking undocumented immigrants. Unfortunately, history has shown us that some authorities are willing to abuse these powers, especially in the state of Arizona. So, the law isn't restrictive enough to limit this to simply being another tool instead of being something much more easily abused. I am worried that it will indeed be abused, and I do not think they should be introducing this before much stricter language is added.

#6 Posted by forkboy (1174 posts) -

I'll be honest. I think the idea of "illegal" immigration is absurd. Borders aren't real. Humans have wandered about from place to place for our entire existence. If conditions are bad in area A then move on to area B. Migration out of Africa 70-80,000(ish) years ago, & from there through Asia, to Europe & the Americas. Mass-migrations into Europe by the Celts, Germanic people & the Slavs have shaped this continent into what it is today over the past several thousand years. I feel absolutely nothing but sympathy & pity for those who move for economic reasons. If the western world is going to insist to live in such conditions of opulence that they require cheap labour & scant regard for the environment which is damaging to people in poorer places then I'm sorry but fucking right on anyone who wants to move to earn more money in the west. Why the hell wouldn't they at least try?

If companies & goods can move about freely from nation to nation then why on earth can't people?

#7 Posted by ValiantGrizzly (497 posts) -

@forkboy: I fucking love you.

#8 Posted by mandude (2666 posts) -

#9 Posted by DukesT3 (1945 posts) -

@Vinny_Says said:

Sure, why not let police randomly detain people for whatever new reason lawmakers come up with. What could go wrong with that?

Nothing. So just move along...

/sarcasm (just in case)

#10 Posted by amir90 (2178 posts) -

I cannot relate to this. It Seems a bit extreme

#11 Posted by LD50 (415 posts) -

I'm going to do myself a favor and get the fuck away from this thread.

#12 Posted by DarthOrange (3893 posts) -

@Hunter5024 said:

I'm from Arizona, and I think it's cool that they're doing something to combat the surplus of blatant illegal immigrants walking around, but I'm not sure how I feel about the actual law.

What do you mean by surplus of immigrants? Do you mean that you think it is ok if there are some but that there is currently a "surplus" of more immigrants then the state has use for just walking around?

@forkboy said:

I'll be honest. I think the idea of "illegal" immigration is absurd. Borders aren't real. Humans have wandered about from place to place for our entire existence. If conditions are bad in area A then move on to area B. Migration out of Africa 70-80,000(ish) years ago, & from there through Asia, to Europe & the Americas. Mass-migrations into Europe by the Celts, Germanic people & the Slavs have shaped this continent into what it is today over the past several thousand years. I feel absolutely nothing but sympathy & pity for those who move for economic reasons. If the western world is going to insist to live in such conditions of opulence that they require cheap labour & scant regard for the environment which is damaging to people in poorer places then I'm sorry but fucking right on anyone who wants to move to earn more money in the west. Why the hell wouldn't they at least try?

If companies & goods can move about freely from nation to nation then why on earth can't people?

Humans have also protected their groups from outsiders they deem dangerous for our entire existence. And I personally would not say I pity a person moving for economic reasons, I would say I understand why they are doing it. Companies or goods are not the same things as people. Do you think that any one country should take in all these people? You compare it to a company or good, but immigrants do not all go to warehouses to live. Should new housing be created to accommodate all those who wish to come? Should all gates be open at all times and people be free to come and go wherever they please at all times, and hope that the invisible hand makes everything right?

@TruthTellah said:

I don't think it is awesome, but you should probably note that the law doesn't say they can detain you and check your immigration status without cause. It must be done as part of already enforcing other laws. In other words, you get pulled over for speeding, you're suspected in a crime, or something like that. If they then suspect that someone might have broken an immigration law and their status is in question, they must inquire as to their immigration status and get confirmation from Federal agents. It is up to Federal agents whether or not they will come down and act upon any reported undocumented immigrants, though, and they have made clear that their priority is on repeat law breakers and violent offenders, not everyday people.

Some corrupt cops can and probably will abuse this to trump up reasons to investigate someone's immigration status, but for regular, law-abiding cops, they will need to both be enforcing a law and have suspicion of a possible immigration violation. So, for the good guys, this might be alright, leading them to simply have an extra tool in facing the real problem of law-breaking undocumented immigrants. Unfortunately, history has shown us that some authorities are willing to abuse these powers, especially in the state of Arizona. So, the law isn't restrictive enough to limit this to simply being another tool instead of being something much more easily abused. I am worried that it will indeed be abused, and I do not think they should be introducing this before much stricter language is added.

My own feelings on this are close to your own. It is a great law in theory. If someone breaks a law then they should have their immigration status checked and be deported if they are illegal. However, in practice this law opens the door to racial profiling, and a family that is living here illegally could be deported even if they did nothing wrong because the cop had "reasonable suspicion". You can't exactly present your case in a US court that you were a victim of racial profiling if ICE ships your ass out of the country. It is good in theory but this would probably do more bad then good at the end of the day.

#13 Posted by Hunter5024 (5963 posts) -

@DarthOrange: To be clear, I'm talking about illegal immigrants. We will never be able to keep them all out, so we have to understand there will always be some, so what I mean by surplus is that there's far more than is acceptable. Especially when it's easier for them to get a job than it is for me, just because they speak Spanish, when they're actually devaluing our (already shitty) education system and not even paying the taxes to get their kids in.

#14 Posted by Wong_Fei_Hung (642 posts) -

Agree with forkboy's sentiments, only to add it would be far more beneficial at the far wider scale, if you respected other countries borders.

#15 Posted by Animasta (14719 posts) -

@Hunter5024: learn spanish then? Even if there weren't illegal immigrants, there'd still be a large amount of people who speak spanish as a first language, especially in the southwest.

and is it really the kids fault if the parents aren't paying taxes? You're just punishing them for something their parents are doing.

#16 Edited by Jams (2966 posts) -

Where I live via Wikipedia:

The 2010 United States Census reported that Madera had a population of 61,416. The population density was 3,889.7 people per square mile (1,501.8/km²). The racial makeup of Madera was 30,640 (49.9%)White, 2,069 (3.4%) African American, 1,933 (3.1%) Native American, 1,369 (2.2%) Asian, 72 (0.1%) Pacific Islander, 22,603 (36.8%) from other races, and 2,730 (4.4%) from two or more races. Hispanic orLatino of any race accounted for 47,103 people (76.7% of the population).

So I always tend to laugh when people call Hispanics a "minority" because where I'm from they're the majority. From my personal experiences, the illegals tend to cause problems in terms of hit and run accidents including cases of manslaughter (running people over that cross the street, etc). There are a lot of pot farms and meth labs (I think we were #1 in the country for number of meth labs or something in like 1999 or something). There are also a lot of unattended to kids running around spraying graffiti and gang banging. You can't really do anything about the bad ones because they're more or less protected by the "liberal" laws where we can't kick them out when they finally get caught fucking up. I know a lot of dual citizens that also don't like how bad it's gotten. I don't know if they're illegals or just people on welfare, but you also get the ones that drive up to the bank in a brand new Escalade rolling on 30" rims with TV's on every seat. They come out dressed in rags and go collect their welfare check. It gets crazy around the first of the month here.

What I really want to say here is that there's a bigger problem with this country (and the world really) and illegal immigration is only a part of the problem. I think it really started with outsourcing jobs that "nobody in America" wants to do (which I think is bullshit). Then you have people expecting to get paid $100 an hour to flip burgers and have a personal massage therapist ready for them at their break they get every 5 mins. You really had to fight to survive back in the day. Now you can basically sit still and still make money and live like a king.

#17 Edited by Hunter5024 (5963 posts) -

@Animasta: Why don't they learn English, so that we can avoid going through the problems bilingual countries like Canada have? It's not fair that I can go to a restaurant and have more trouble communicating with a cashier because I'm speaking the native tongue of the country I'm in, when someone who speaks Spanish can order with no problem. The multilingual problem doesn't apply to people who move here legally, or who were born here, they learn english, they put in the work. And I'm not blaming the kids attending the schools, I'm blaming the parents for putting them there. It's not right that I had to share a math book with another student through all of freshman English because we couldn't afford books for every student, and yes this is also a matter of our schools simply not getting enough money, but there would certainly be a lot more to go around if all the students parent's could prove they were citizens. I knew dozens of kids who would straight up tell me their parents were illegals, and it's not fair that my education suffered for that.

@forkboy: Why can't they just immigrate through the proper channels? I certainly respect someone who determines that the place they live in isn't good enough for them, and decides that they should improve their life by moving there and puts in the work to make it a possibility. However there's a big difference between that, and someone who hops the border to come here and take a job and put his kids through school hes not paying for.

#18 Posted by Inkerman (1455 posts) -

@forkboy said:

I'll be honest. I think the idea of "illegal" immigration is absurd. Borders aren't real. Humans have wandered about from place to place for our entire existence. If conditions are bad in area A then move on to area B. Migration out of Africa 70-80,000(ish) years ago, & from there through Asia, to Europe & the Americas. Mass-migrations into Europe by the Celts, Germanic people & the Slavs have shaped this continent into what it is today over the past several thousand years. I feel absolutely nothing but sympathy & pity for those who move for economic reasons. If the western world is going to insist to live in such conditions of opulence that they require cheap labour & scant regard for the environment which is damaging to people in poorer places then I'm sorry but fucking right on anyone who wants to move to earn more money in the west. Why the hell wouldn't they at least try?

If companies & goods can move about freely from nation to nation then why on earth can't people?

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or just fucking retarded...

#19 Posted by Mageman (349 posts) -

@forkboy said:

I'll be honest. I think the idea of "illegal" immigration is absurd. Borders aren't real. Humans have wandered about from place to place for our entire existence. If conditions are bad in area A then move on to area B. Migration out of Africa 70-80,000(ish) years ago, & from there through Asia, to Europe & the Americas. Mass-migrations into Europe by the Celts, Germanic people & the Slavs have shaped this continent into what it is today over the past several thousand years. I feel absolutely nothing but sympathy & pity for those who move for economic reasons. If the western world is going to insist to live in such conditions of opulence that they require cheap labour & scant regard for the environment which is damaging to people in poorer places then I'm sorry but fucking right on anyone who wants to move to earn more money in the west. Why the hell wouldn't they at least try?

If companies & goods can move about freely from nation to nation then why on earth can't people?

They can, but as for companies and goods certain status/paperwork has been made. Illegal immigrants endanger other citizens by not paying taxes and working more for less. Back in tribal Europe, nobody would just walk from tribe a to tribe b and demand to get a house and some shaman powder to make him sleep better.

As for the law it seems to be invading one's privacy too much, and I have never been convinced that the authority of police officers is in any way justifiable.

#20 Posted by jozzy (2035 posts) -

@forkboy said:

I'll be honest. I think the idea of "illegal" immigration is absurd. Borders aren't real. Humans have wandered about from place to place for our entire existence. If conditions are bad in area A then move on to area B. Migration out of Africa 70-80,000(ish) years ago, & from there through Asia, to Europe & the Americas. Mass-migrations into Europe by the Celts, Germanic people & the Slavs have shaped this continent into what it is today over the past several thousand years. I feel absolutely nothing but sympathy & pity for those who move for economic reasons. If the western world is going to insist to live in such conditions of opulence that they require cheap labour & scant regard for the environment which is damaging to people in poorer places then I'm sorry but fucking right on anyone who wants to move to earn more money in the west. Why the hell wouldn't they at least try?

If companies & goods can move about freely from nation to nation then why on earth can't people?

It seems to me that you have a bit of a naive view on this whole immigration thing. Borders have always been real. Yes, humans wandered and many times got killed when they went into the territory of tribe, or they were wandering with a big invading force themselves. You want to go back t those times? Also, goods and companies don't move about as freely either as you seem to think.

I really like the idealistic view you are presenting, and I am an immigrant myself, but yeah, it seems a tad naive. The world is not exactly the same as it was a long time ago. And even then it wasn't people all nicely wandering around and settling with the friendly local people either.

#21 Posted by Everyones_A_Critic (6310 posts) -

@forkboy said:

I'll be honest. I think the idea of "illegal" immigration is absurd. Borders aren't real. Humans have wandered about from place to place for our entire existence. If conditions are bad in area A then move on to area B. Migration out of Africa 70-80,000(ish) years ago, & from there through Asia, to Europe & the Americas. Mass-migrations into Europe by the Celts, Germanic people & the Slavs have shaped this continent into what it is today over the past several thousand years. I feel absolutely nothing but sympathy & pity for those who move for economic reasons. If the western world is going to insist to live in such conditions of opulence that they require cheap labour & scant regard for the environment which is damaging to people in poorer places then I'm sorry but fucking right on anyone who wants to move to earn more money in the west. Why the hell wouldn't they at least try?

If companies & goods can move about freely from nation to nation then why on earth can't people?

You kinda just blew my mind a little bit.

#22 Posted by Animasta (14719 posts) -

@Hunter5024: do you know how hard that test is? You couldn't do it, fullstop. Neither could I. It's fucking hard to come here legally.

They should learn english, but it's like, why do they need to? Apparently they don't because they're taking all those jobs you think you can't get. Just because a country has an official language does not mean that everyone in that country needs to learn that language, especially near the south. and illegal immigrants was hardly the reason your school experience sucked. I went to school in Oregon for the most part, and my elementary school was crap too, and there were hardly illegal immigrants, compared to Arizona. Arizona just doesn't place enough emphasis on public education the way other states do.

also you keep mentioning them putting kids through school when they aren't paying taxes, but come on! Leave the goddamn kids out of it. Even if they are the kids of illegals, do they not deserve the same quality of education that non immigrants do? why od you think they illegally immigrate in the first place? for funsies?

#23 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

Just cause your came out of a vagina in America you get minimum wage, the other guy came out of a vagina in Mexico so he has to fear for his life with the escalating drug violence, he risks his life to cross the border so he can mow lawns for a couple of bucks a day. We are all human and he just wants to eat dinner at the end of the day like everyone else on this planet.

#24 Posted by Hunter5024 (5963 posts) -

@Animasta: Well if they're trying to improve their life than it shouldn't matter how hard the test is to them, it proves they know how to work at something if it means a lot to them, and that maybe they are an ambitious enough individual that they might be a productive citizen. Besides it's not like half of them ever even tried the test in the first place. And yes, Arizona doesn't put anywhere near enough money in schools, and that should change, but it's pretty hard to convince us to raise taxes so that we can pay for the education of illegal immigrants children. The reason I keep mentioning that is because it's a good example of the problem illegal immigrants pose, they use our roads, our schools, our government facilities, but they don't pay to make them, and we do, and that's not right, it's not fair. I do believe their children should get a good education (every kid should), but why should they be entitled to something that we pay for, and they don't? I think it's pretty fair to be bitter about that, it's a real problem.

#25 Edited by DarthOrange (3893 posts) -

@Hunter5024 said:

@DarthOrange: To be clear, I'm talking about illegal immigrants. We will never be able to keep them all out, so we have to understand there will always be some, so what I mean by surplus is that there's far more than is acceptable. Especially when it's easier for them to get a job than it is for me, just because they speak Spanish, when they're actually devaluing our (already shitty) education system and not even paying the taxes to get their kids in.

How is it easier for them to get a job when they don't even have a Social Security number. The employer is taking a bigger risk hiring the illegal then he is hiring you. Also, how exactly are they devaluing the education system? I agree that the education system is busted, but how is that in any way the fault of illegal immigrants?

@Jams said:

Where I live via Wikipedia:

The 2010 United States Census reported that Madera had a population of 61,416. The population density was 3,889.7 people per square mile (1,501.8/km²). The racial makeup of Madera was 30,640 (49.9%)White, 2,069 (3.4%) African American, 1,933 (3.1%) Native American, 1,369 (2.2%) Asian, 72 (0.1%) Pacific Islander, 22,603 (36.8%) from other races, and 2,730 (4.4%) from two or more races. Hispanic orLatino of any race accounted for 47,103 people (76.7% of the population).

So I always tend to laugh when people call Hispanics a "minority" because where I'm from they're the majority. From my personal experiences, the illegals tend to cause problems in terms of hit and run accidents including cases of manslaughter (running people over that cross the street, etc). There are a lot of pot farms and meth labs (I think we were #1 in the country for number of meth labs or something in like 1999 or something). There are also a lot of unattended to kids running around spraying graffiti and gang banging. You can't really do anything about the bad ones because they're more or less protected by the "liberal" laws where we can't kick them out when they finally get caught fucking up. I know a lot of dual citizens that also don't like how bad it's gotten. I don't know if they're illegals or just people on welfare, but you also get the ones that drive up to the bank in a brand new Escalade rolling on 30" rims with TV's on every seat. They come out dressed in rags and go collect their welfare check. It gets crazy around the first of the month here.

What I really want to say here is that there's a bigger problem with this country (and the world really) and illegal immigration is only a part of the problem. I think it really started with outsourcing jobs that "nobody in America" wants to do (which I think is bullshit). Then you have people expecting to get paid $100 an hour to flip burgers and have a personal massage therapist ready for them at their break they get every 5 mins. You really had to fight to survive back in the day. Now you can basically sit still and still make money and live like a king.

You do realize that Hispanic is not a race right? Also your Wikipedia links are dog poo (no offense). Illegal immigrants actually commit less crime (by percentage) then the native born population. Here is a study by Ruben G. Rumbaut where he explains it in detail. As for Madera having a bunch of illegal immigrants collecting welfare, I did a bit of research and found an interesting document. Before I get into that though, lets be clear that an illegal immigrant can not get welfare because they do not have an SSID. One could argue that they can get a fake Social Security and take welfare that way, but that isn't very common at all, as explained in Professor Rumbaut's report. According to the study by Rafael Alarcon, even as Illegal immigrants came to Madera, "the percentage of Latino families receiving public funding did not grow because of legal restrictions. Immigrants become working poor rather then welfare recipients." They take the shitty jobs and shitty wages no one else wants. No native born American, anyway.

#26 Posted by Hunter5024 (5963 posts) -

@DarthOrange: Speaking Spanish is basically the only way to get an entry level job in my city. On every application I've filled out in the last three years they asked my ethnicity, "Are you Latino?" "If not, which ethnicity are you? (You may opt not to answer this question)", and out of all the hundreds of applications I filled out I got called back to 2, whereas my hispanic friend with identical experience got a job within two months and had 3 callbacks before that, even though I applied to the same place (at the same time he did), lived closer, and had more education. Managers turn a blind eye to that shit down here, and if it means they can get away with paying less than minimum wage, they have no problem doing deals under the table to avoid taxes. I've seen it, and there's no stopping it other than reporting them to the better business bureau, which most people don't do.

As far as education goes, its devalued by having more students than the money we put in can handle, which is only exacerbated by having thousands of children in our schools who have parents that don't pay the taxes to run our schools. That's why there aren't enough books to go around, liberal arts classes that aren't named choir cannot afford to stay open, student to teacher ratios are completely broken, and lots of our funding has to go to English as a second language programs to bridge the communication gap.

#27 Edited by Ravenlight (8011 posts) -

I live in AZ and I think it's bullshit.

There are legitimate reasons to enforce borders but the law as it stands is a good idea taken to an extreme end by bullies who should have no investment in the law.

#28 Edited by DarthOrange (3893 posts) -

@Hunter5024 said:

@DarthOrange: Speaking Spanish is basically the only way to get an entry level job in my city. On every application I've filled out in the last three years they asked my ethnicity, "Are you Latino?" "If not, which ethnicity are you? (You may opt not to answer this question)", and out of all the hundreds of applications I filled out I got called back to 2, whereas my hispanic friend with identical experience got a job within two months and had 3 callbacks before that, even though I applied to the same place (at the same time he did), lived closer, and had more education. Managers turn a blind eye to that shit down here, and if it means they can get away with paying less than minimum wage, they have no problem doing deals under the table to avoid taxes. I've seen it, and there's no stopping it other than reporting them to the better business bureau, which most people don't do.

As far as education goes, its devalued by having more students than the money we put in can handle, which is only exacerbated by having thousands of children in our schools who have parents that don't pay the taxes to run our schools. That's why there aren't enough books to go around, liberal arts classes that aren't named choir cannot afford to stay open, student to teacher ratios are completely broken, and lots of our funding has to go to English as a second language programs to bridge the communication gap.

Do you not speak a second language? It is mandatory for most high schools and university's nation wide. Even if the employ is looking to avoid taxes then the reason he isn't hiring you is because you are a legal citizen, not because you don't speak Spanish. The problem then lies with the companies that hire these people, not in the people themselves.

Everyone pays at least some taxes, no one can escape sales tax. I'm sure illegal immigrants would pay taxes if there was a way they could stay here and not be deported. And even if they did pay taxes and increase taxes, who is to say that the money would be used for schools? One quick look at the Arizona Revenue Distributions List and you can see that the monies should be allocated differently with a priority being given to schools. Schools not getting enough money is not something that illegal immigrants are responsible for.

#29 Edited by Animasta (14719 posts) -

@Hunter5024: why don't you move then? I mean you don't even have to do it illegally!

also you're biggest problem is that they're devaluing education and taking jobs that you want. you know what most illegal immigrants problems are? not having work, not having a safe place to live... I mean, you expect these people to have money to study for this test when they need to make money to feed their families, and to live in the unsafe areas they do until they have the oppertunity to take the test... You can say they need to take the test until they're blue in the face, and you're probably right, but fuck man deportation is not the answer here.

making the test easier would be a nice start

#30 Posted by GrantHeaslip (1682 posts) -

@Hunter5024 said:

@DarthOrange: Speaking Spanish is basically the only way to get an entry level job in my city. On every application I've filled out in the last three years they asked my ethnicity, "Are you Latino?" "If not, which ethnicity are you? (You may opt not to answer this question)", and out of all the hundreds of applications I filled out I got called back to 2, whereas my hispanic friend with identical experience got a job within two months and had 3 callbacks before that, even though I applied to the same place (at the same time he did), lived closer, and had more education. Managers turn a blind eye to that shit down here, and if it means they can get away with paying less than minimum wage, they have no problem doing deals under the table to avoid taxes. I've seen it, and there's no stopping it other than reporting them to the better business bureau, which most people don't do.

That's a large part of the reason these kinds of laws always rub me the wrong way. There wouldn't be illegal immigrants if people weren't hiring them, yet the laws and rhetoric always seem to revolve around the poor immigrants just trying to get by, not the employers taking advantage of the cheap labour (who are shocked, shocked to discover that illegals are working for them!). How many of the people scapegoating those goddamn Mexicans live lifestyles basically underwritten by their existence?

Online
#31 Posted by Hunter5024 (5963 posts) -

@DarthOrange: It is not mandatory to learn a second language in any high school I've ever seen and I've lived in multiple states, nor would high school language courses be enough to be capable of actually speaking a second language. They can claim whatever reason they want for not hiring me, but when 100% of the people behind the counter of a restaurant are Spanish speaking Latinos, and the applications specifically ask me whether or not I am Hispanic, and my Spanish speaking friend was able to get a job even though he was less qualified, I start to see a pattern. We can always expect businesses to be slimy, that's in their nature and it will never change, but if we had less illegal immigrants here than it would be harder for them to be so slimy. Also your belief that illegal immigrants would pay taxes if they could is simply wrong sir, I have met multiple people who have bragged about how they get around it. And while I agree that we should damn well put more money in schools, we wouldn't need to if there weren't as many students, and there was more money coming in from their parents.

@Animasta: Maybe deportation is not the answer, but while we twiddle are thumbs trying to find the right answer my city and the people who live here are really being hurt, so I can understand why people are trying to do something in the mean time. Sure maybe devaluing education doesn't seem like a big deal, until you realize that pairing that problem with a lack of jobs leads to an excess of gang activity, which gives us a lot of the same problems they have back in their own home. It's not a big enough problem that I feel like I need to get out, but if I ever have kids they sure as hell aren't going to live here.

#32 Posted by ajamafalous (12154 posts) -
@Hunter5024 said:

It is not mandatory to learn a second language in any high school I've ever seen and I've lived in multiple states, nor would high school language courses be enough to be capable of actually speaking a second language.

Two years of a foreign language was mandatory in my school district in Texas, and whenever it's brought up at UT nobody has ever indicated that it wasn't mandatory in their district as well.
 
That said, you're right in that high school language courses would in no way prepare you to actually hold a conversation in a foreign language. I took three years of French and at no point during that could I hold even a basic conversation outside of stumbling over ordering food or saying what I did yesterday. I also remember almost none of it.
#33 Posted by Animasta (14719 posts) -

@Hunter5024: It was mandatory in Oregon as well (all the districts I went to), and while it doesn't teach you everything it does at least give you a starting block. admittedly I learned german but still. and the people who live there are being hurt? do not the illegal immigrants live there as well?

and if you don't feel the need to move, then, well, that's your problem and one that is not caused by the illegal immigrants.

also if you think there's any place that's as bad as some of the places down in mexico (well, maybe some areas of detroit), well... don't be silly.

#34 Posted by Hunter5024 (5963 posts) -

@Animasta: When my older brother went to high school in Oregon in 2001 it was not mandatory. Anyways, just because the problems aren't bad enough for me to feel like I need to abandon ship doesn't mean they don't exist, and ignoring illegal immigrants role in it is only going to exacerbate the problems until it really does start to get as bad as Mexico.

#35 Posted by Animasta (14719 posts) -

Considering how big our army is, it'll never get as bad as Mexico.

#36 Posted by thedj93 (1237 posts) -

it should be illegal to legislate that way

#37 Posted by Irvandus (2881 posts) -

Is not video games.

#38 Edited by PSNgamesun (414 posts) -

I think its fine for a state to fight immigration cause it is hurting our country but this law is also a gateway for racism. I as a Hispanic may look like a Mexican since i have tanned skin and my 1st language is Spanish; but im a 6th generation American. It hurts me to say that people will take advantage of the system and go after Hispanics. I say Hispanics in particular simply because thats the majority of illegal immigrants and especially in Arizona.

#39 Posted by forkboy (1174 posts) -

@Hunter5024 said:

@forkboy: Why can't they just immigrate through the proper channels? I certainly respect someone who determines that the place they live in isn't good enough for them, and decides that they should improve their life by moving there and puts in the work to make it a possibility. However there's a big difference between that, and someone who hops the border to come here and take a job and put his kids through school hes not paying for.

Because wealthy nations put restrictions on immigration so that only "desirable" immigrants will arrive. Which is to say wealth & or highly educated. Illegals WOULD pay taxes if they could get regular jobs without being thrown out of the country. Unfortunately this is made as difficult as possible for illegal immigrants. And that is why they get cash-in-hand, because normal taxed jobs are completely out of reach for them. This isn't people paying Capital Gains on their incomes so they can get away with paying considerably less taxes, these are people who simply have the option of working at a McDonalds removed from them. Because the rules say the government doesn't want them. I find this distasteful, to put it mildly.

@Inkerman said:

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or just fucking retarded...

I prefer to think of it as naively idealistic. But entirely sincere in my belief that borders are not positive things, anymore than the nation-states that enforce those borders.

@Mageman said:

They can, but as for companies and goods certain status/paperwork has been made. Illegal immigrants endanger other citizens by not paying taxes and working more for less. Back in tribal Europe, nobody would just walk from tribe a to tribe b and demand to get a house and some shaman powder to make him sleep better.

As for the law it seems to be invading one's privacy too much, and I have never been convinced that the authority of police officers is in any way justifiable.

You & I clearly have wildly differing views on what endangers citizens. Yeah, they don't pay tax (ignoring that of course they do pay VAT & similar taxes on good purchased). Because they can't without getting deported. Almost all illegal immigrants would if they could though. As for the second point, surely with globalisation they already work more (& often smarter) for less. Which is why so many corporations move operations to Asia, be it high-tech, manufacturing or whatever else. So why have a problem with letting them to do that in the country of their choice?

@Everyones_A_Critic said:

You kinda just blew my mind a little bit.

Well I sure hope it was in a "wow, there's hope for humanity yet, not everybody is a dick" kind or way rather than a "what the fuck? fucking bleeding hearts, I'd shoot them all if I had my way, trying to defend these people coming here & taking our jobs" sort of mind blowing.

@jozzy said:

It seems to me that you have a bit of a naive view on this whole immigration thing. Borders have always been real. Yes, humans wandered and many times got killed when they went into the territory of tribe, or they were wandering with a big invading force themselves. You want to go back t those times? Also, goods and companies don't move about as freely either as you seem to think.

I really like the idealistic view you are presenting, and I am an immigrant myself, but yeah, it seems a tad naive. The world is not exactly the same as it was a long time ago. And even then it wasn't people all nicely wandering around and settling with the friendly local people either.

Like I say, I tend to think of myself more an idealist, an optimist, that ultimately human beings are basically decent human beings. I'm not at all ashamed of that fact. And yes, for the record, a part of me wonders if human beings aren't better adapted for the hunter-gatherer life, or at least the self-sufficient farmer. But on balance I tend to view primitivism as impractical so it's not even worth discussing really. Not unless someone comes up with a time machine anyway! The point is, & it's especially pertinent to America & Britain, most western countries are made of immigrants. Here in the UK, people have only been living for 25,000 years, then they left with the last Ice Age, coming back in 12,000BCE. Which is the blink of an eye in the existence of our planet. There are no "native" people, not really. Just people who kicked out the last lot. The Celts came & took over from. And the Romans arrived, the Angles, the Saxons, the Scots came to Scotland from Ireland, the Vikings, the Normans, Jews escaping persecution in Spain, Germany & other places, Huguenot French, all the way up to immigration from the Indian subcontinent & the Commonwealth nations in the Carribean & Africa in the latter half of the 20th century.

Borders only exist as long as states exist. I tend to think states are a bad influence on people.

#40 Posted by JasonR86 (9726 posts) -

You know, of all the policies there are in the US immigration policies are the ones that get ignored the most. But they are still laws. We still need our government's policies to be upheld. If the law of the land is the problem then they need to be addressed but they can't simply be ignored. I think what Arizona has addressed a national policy that several states have chosen to ignore out of political correctness.

I guess for me the two biggest issues are should a national policy always be upheld by states and are the immigration laws that are in place currently appropriate. For the first issue I would say yes. States need to hold to national standards. For the second issue, I can't honestly say. I don't know enough about the US immigration policy. But simply ignoring it is not an option.

A quick note, I might sound really hypocritical because I work for a mental health agency as a therapist that prides itself on working with under-served populations including illegal immigrants. Just to be clear, my personal views do not impact my work. But, more importantly, I don't believe my personal views on this topic would keep me from working with illegal immigrants even if my personal views did impact my work. The bottom line for me is that national policy needs to be addressed, and not ignored, by states.

#41 Posted by FancySoapsMan (5818 posts) -

I'm not going to offer my opinion on Illegal immigration as a whole because it's a very complicated issue and I'm not even sure how I feel about it myself. 
 
that being said though, I think that law is a bunch of dick.

#42 Posted by Hunter5024 (5963 posts) -

@forkboy: It's been brought up in this thread already, but I just have to say again, that anybody who believes illegal immigrants would actually pay taxes if they could is incredibly naive, and maybe they've never even met an illegal immigrant before. I'd argue more of your points, but I feel like I've said everything I need to say in this thread already.

#43 Posted by DarthOrange (3893 posts) -

@Hunter5024 said:

@forkboy: It's been brought up in this thread already, but I just have to say again, that anybody who believes illegal immigrants would actually pay taxes if they could is incredibly naive, and maybe they've never even met an illegal immigrant before. I'd argue more of your points, but I feel like I've said everything I need to say in this thread already.

Tell me, exactly how many people have told you that they will never pay taxes, and in what context they said it. You seem to be incredibly naive to think that all illegal immigrants (or even most) are thieves that are happy to take advantage of the United States. Maybe that is the case with some of the illegal aliens in Silicon Valley, but the average joe is just looking for better living conditions, not a free ride.

#44 Posted by FiestaUnicorn (1577 posts) -

All the law would have done is back up police forces further, crowd jails further and backup courts further. Instead of having cops hand over illegal immigrants to immigration officials like they had been doing. I haven't met a single person who's for it who actually knows what it would have done.

Also it's illegal because the federal government has authority over immigration not the states.

#45 Posted by BoG (5192 posts) -

Immigration should be a matter of logistics. It's not. I'm pretty dedicated to illegal immigration. The US' system is broken, and needs a serious overhaul. Arizona is the second worst offender when it comes to bad immigration policy, after Alabama. Our policies are fueled by racism and xenophobia, and nothing else. More liberal policies would only benefit us. I like what @forkboy said, but I think that some form of immigration process is necessary. It should never be made to keep people out, however, but to provide people that rights they deserve. If you're not documented, you miss out on benefits like fair wages, social security, etc. This is why we need immigration. It should never be a means of exclusion. The US does need to worry about too open a policy. Latin America isn't stable, and we don't want a flood of immigrants. America absolutely needs a radical change in its policies with regards to Latin America. I say we do as much as possible to help these countries stabilize. This will do so much more than building a wall to keep people out. uuuuggggggghhhh. I could go on and on but I'll quit. We have some immigration issues in the US.

#46 Posted by d_breeze (226 posts) -

I'm from AZ myself and I think it's a bunch of crap. I understand trying to reform, but this is simply not the right way of going about it. Immigration reform and policies should be about helping honest people to get in the country, not keeping them out. The reason so many come here and even take the risks of coming illegally is because things must be that bad for them where they are; otherwise, why would they risk so much?

My concern is for those who are here illegally because it's just ridiculous going through the process it coming and living here legally. I know people who had been here trying to go through all of the correct channels to become citizens for 20+ years, and were just able to become legal citizens a few years ago. Things like that make me realize why people just come here and try their luck. That's what's wrong with immigration; it's not the people, it's the policies and procedures.

And I find it unfortunate that people believe those who are here illegally just want to milk the system. All of the immigrants I've known (illegal or otherwise) want to be legal citizens and deal with everything that comes with it, including the taxes. They would be more than willing to pay the taxes if it wouldn't come back to bite them.

Sure, technically it's wrong for there to be illegal immigrants here, but this I think this is a case of the law not being caught up with the times. And this law is not helping the situation.

#47 Posted by clumsyninja1 (816 posts) -

illegals are illegals, they are committing a crime. If you wanna do that stay in your country; i don't mind immigrants as long as they do it the right way like everyone else.

#48 Posted by Loose (411 posts) -

@forkboy said:

I'll be honest. I think the idea of "illegal" immigration is absurd. Borders aren't real. Humans have wandered about from place to place for our entire existence. If conditions are bad in area A then move on to area B. Migration out of Africa 70-80,000(ish) years ago, & from there through Asia, to Europe & the Americas. Mass-migrations into Europe by the Celts, Germanic people & the Slavs have shaped this continent into what it is today over the past several thousand years. I feel absolutely nothing but sympathy & pity for those who move for economic reasons. If the western world is going to insist to live in such conditions of opulence that they require cheap labour & scant regard for the environment which is damaging to people in poorer places then I'm sorry but fucking right on anyone who wants to move to earn more money in the west. Why the hell wouldn't they at least try?

If companies & goods can move about freely from nation to nation then why on earth can't people?

I want you to know that you are a good person. That is all.

#49 Posted by mlarrabee (3060 posts) -

As an American, I'm for open borders. America has created a great deal of the world's most important inventions and systems, and most by first-generation immigrants. Greatly simplifying the immigration process would do nothing but improve this country. It shouldn't take six to sixty months to become a citizen. They should be learning English and be capable of legally working within four weeks.

That said, illegal immigrants are exactly that: illegal. A system may have problems, but that doesn't justify criminal activity. One cannot justify entering a country illegally any more than one can justify a corporation using overseas tax loopholes to avoid contributing to their nation.

The Arizona state immigration law addendum allows police officers to check the immigration status of people within state borders, and only after a criminal offense. No one may be stopped or detained strictly at the officer's discretion. If one doesn't commit a criminal offense or a traffic violation worthy of a vehicle stop, one's immigration status cannot be checked.

In summation, I think Arizona's immigration law addendum is the equivalent of a bandage on a bullet wound: it will help for now, but eventually the underlying problem will have to be dealt with.

#50 Posted by Stonyman65 (2871 posts) -

@clumsyninja1 said:

illegals are illegals, they are committing a crime. If you wanna do that stay in your country; i don't mind immigrants as long as they do it the right way like everyone else.

Pretty much this.

I have no problem at all with immigration, because lets be honest here - if it wasn't for immigration to America, i'd say 95% of the people here now wouldn't be because their great-grandparents and such wouldn't have come over in the first place.

Now, when we are talking about illegal immigration, it's just that - illegal. If you want to come over here and become a citizen, or come here on a work visa or green card and pay into the system like every other natural-born US Citizen does from the day of birth, that's awesome. But if you forge documents or sneak over and DON'T pay into the system and DON'T do what every other US Citizen does, that's not cool because you are taking jobs and tax payer money away from everyone that does make an honest living. You're cheating the system and cheating others out opportunities.