Why the stigma of creepiness behind Japanese fan service?

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JasonR86

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#51  Edited By JasonR86

@AzHP said:

@Castermhief117 said:

@AzHP said:

@Castermhief117: @Itwastuesday: Examples? (I swear I'm not going to look them up, I just couldn't think of any examples and am wondering what you guys are referring to)

He's being sarcastic. But I wasn't - there are many examples of teenagers (or actors who are supposed to resemble teenagers) being sexualized at beauty pageants, on billboards, television, and movies. It doesn't happen to video games and cartoons though, because there's still a cultural divide at that point.

Two examples from movies that I recall: American Beauty and Romeo and Juliet (1960's version).

Oh god, now I'm having horrible flashbacks to watching Toddlers in Tiaras. They dress up and make up 7 year old girls to look like they're 20.

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My God. Is that an actual little girl? It looks like a doll. God. Weird.

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musubi

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#52  Edited By musubi

I don't think its creepy. Its just a kink that some people are into I don't understand furries or S&M people but I'm also not going to judge them. As long as your kink isn't luring little kids off the internet I really don't care what kind of crazy shit you are into.

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#53  Edited By Video_Game_King

@FluxWaveZ said:

@Inkerman said:

I was under the impression that even the Japanese thought it was fucking weird, and many of the people who like this stuff are stigmatised for it.

I think that is correct.

It is. I just wanted to use this thread as a platform for telling everybody how much Nisemonogatari sucks :P.

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twigger89

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#54  Edited By twigger89

@AzHP said:

@twigger89 said:

It's definitely the fact that scantily clad characters in a lot of anime and jrpg's look like they are 12 years old. Regardless of the context that shit is creepy and unsettling. That's not to say western sexualization has a higher moral ground, it's just that it is more patronizing and insulting than creepy and pedophilic like Japanese sexualization.

I wonder if some of that is due to the fact that (at least from my experience anecdotally and a general stereotype) Asians typically look and sound a lot younger than Westerners. I have a whole lot of friends who are in their mid 20s and get mistaken for teenagers constantly. I'm not saying all Japanese sexualization is not pedophilic, but it might be a factor.

I think we can both agree that children's beauty pageants are horrible, disgusting events and that parents who sign their kids up for that should lose their kids AND their right to reproduce.

I think part of it can be argued by the fact that Asians generally look younger than similar aged westerners, but there is no denying that a good number of animes straight up have children in sexualized situations. And then you have all the creepy porn games that come out of Japan, like the fucking handicapped porn school game (which I am actually embarrassed I know exists but I saw a thread about it on this site).

Also sexual assault seems like a much more common theme in Japan, especially of the fantastical kind. Obviously it is my opinion here, but I think anime fans do not do a good enough job of distinguishing themselves from creepy hentai people/porn game players and because of it they get lumped into this seedy subculture that they may not really deserve to be a part of.

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#55  Edited By AndrewB

@vorpalparasite said:

@Bocam: I'm thinking they were referring to Lotus' attire. The only other sexual thing I can think of is one of the options to misunderstand what June is worried about with the elevator.

That scene is fantastic.

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apathylad

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#56  Edited By apathylad

I'm surprised no one has brought up Western comics yet...

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SomeJerk

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#57  Edited By SomeJerk

Japan is fucked up, they are aware of it, they look at their own shit and go "that's fucked up" and wonder why things are like that. It becomes second nature, desensitized, no longer a special thing. Anime went to goddamn shit with fanservice, from acceptable moments of it that made sense (Tenchi Muyo OAVs) to the shit and poo there is today, and along with it went the peoples minds. If something not carrying a super popular franchise doesn't have out of place fanservice at least once an episode it simply won't air thanks, because the execs knows you need it for viewers.
 
Yes, I'm bitter about Upotte! only having one episode that was good.
 
(Sources: The tens and tens of Japanese people, mostly nerds, I talk with daily. Philosophical "wtf this country"/"fuckit let's just go along and live like everybody else" discussions aplenty.)

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#58  Edited By Bocam

@Video_Game_King said:

@FluxWaveZ said:

@Inkerman said:

I was under the impression that even the Japanese thought it was fucking weird, and many of the people who like this stuff are stigmatised for it.

I think that is correct.

It is. I just wanted to use this thread as a platform for telling everybody how much Nisemonogatari sucks :P.

In it's viewed just as weird as people who play video games that are older then twenty. Also I'll take you down off your throne Moon Man for talking shit about Nisemonogatari.

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deactivated-5b8316ffae7ad

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@SomeJerk: That's right. Mainstream Japanese culture hates the "nerd" culture - I forgot the appropriate word for it - it's one reason why all Japanese pornography is censored by law.

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#60  Edited By Video_Game_King
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#61  Edited By JasonR86

@Castermhief117 said:

@SomeJerk: That's right. Mainstream Japanese culture hates the "nerd" culture - I forgot the appropriate word for it - it's one reason why all Japanese pornography is censored by law.

Wait, what does Japanese 'nerd' culture have to do with Japanese porn?

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Turambar

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#62  Edited By Turambar

@twigger89 said:

@AzHP said:

@twigger89 said:

It's definitely the fact that scantily clad characters in a lot of anime and jrpg's look like they are 12 years old. Regardless of the context that shit is creepy and unsettling. That's not to say western sexualization has a higher moral ground, it's just that it is more patronizing and insulting than creepy and pedophilic like Japanese sexualization.

I wonder if some of that is due to the fact that (at least from my experience anecdotally and a general stereotype) Asians typically look and sound a lot younger than Westerners. I have a whole lot of friends who are in their mid 20s and get mistaken for teenagers constantly. I'm not saying all Japanese sexualization is not pedophilic, but it might be a factor.

I think we can both agree that children's beauty pageants are horrible, disgusting events and that parents who sign their kids up for that should lose their kids AND their right to reproduce.

I think part of it can be argued by the fact that Asians generally look younger than similar aged westerners, but there is no denying that a good number of animes straight up have children in sexualized situations. And then you have all the creepy porn games that come out of Japan, like the fucking handicapped porn school game (which I am actually embarrassed I know exists but I saw a thread about it on this site).

Also sexual assault seems like a much more common theme in Japan, especially of the fantastical kind. Obviously it is my opinion here, but I think anime fans do not do a good enough job of distinguishing themselves from creepy hentai people/porn game players and because of it they get lumped into this seedy subculture that they may not really deserve to be a part of.

I'm sure VGK is gonna jump on you about that, but the irony of that statement is Katawa Shoujo is a western game, and its contents are far more respectful than you could probably imagine despite the small amounts of explicit content.

There is a big divide between Rapelay-esque porn games that are essentially designed for titillation and nothing else, and visual novels that (attempts) to use its sex scenes as merely a component of its plot as opposed to its end reward.

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Levio

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#63  Edited By Levio

For me, the creepiest part of fanservice is knowing that millions of other guys are seeing the exact same thing. And "reacting" to it.

Which brings me to a question I've had for years: why would guys want to see the sex scene in The Watchmen when their guy friends are sitting right next to them seeing the same thing? What good can come from that!?!?!?

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#64  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Turambar said:

I'm sure VGK is gonna jump on you about that

You bet your ass I am! What's sexually explicit about any of this:

(Plus Turambar actually said a lot of what I was going to say, anyway.)

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kindgineer

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#65  Edited By kindgineer

Probably due to the fact that the Japanese are more "open" with their sexualization of products than we like to admit ourselves. I was browsing Hulu the other day and came across a show about a school-boy who apparently wants to do his sister (or something like that).

That is why the stigma exists.

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#66  Edited By LiquidPrince

@FluxWaveZ said:

So you're saying this isn't creepy?

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Not in the slightest. I mean I don't think people understand the definition of creepy if they think that is creepy. Also don't you have a full body pillow anime character? That\s not "creepy" but it's definitely more weird then the image.

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#67  Edited By Bocam

@Video_Game_King: Katawa Shoujo is the lewdest game

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#68  Edited By Video_Game_King

@ck1nd said:

I was browsing Hulu the other day and came across a show about a school-boy who apparently wants to do his sister (or something like that).

Was it Bakemonogatari or Nisemonogatari?

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#69  Edited By Hunkulese
@AzHP I'm a little confused. Did you include a super creepy picture in your post about stuff not being creepy?

I've yet to play 999 but DOA has always been super creepy. For people who don't play it it's just the fighting game with the boobs. You don't see something wierd with that?
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#70  Edited By FluxWaveZ

@LiquidPrince said:

Not in the slightest. I mean I don't think people understand the definition of creepy if they think that is creepy. Also don't you have a full body pillow anime character? That\s not "creepy" but it's definitely more weird then the image.

Oh? Then I'd love to hear your definition of "creepy"!

And what I really think is creepy is you stating that I have a full body pillow of an anime character! Haha, uh, where are you getting that information from?

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Turambar

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#71  Edited By Turambar

I find it weird that people consider fascination with youth in Japanese fan service to be odd. While human cultures have different standards for beauty, all cultures places a premium on youth. That premium was established on a biological level well before our whole "18 years old" bright line existed, so while it is very disagreeable, there should be no reason it should seem baffling.

Now, what's really god damn weird is the incest fetish, because aside from its inherent oddity, the Japanese interest in incest still seems to be bound by some unspoken rule that said brother/sister pairs have to be cousins/adopted children. Nisenmonogatari was mentioned before, and that show is unique in that it is probably one of the few cases where I've seen actual biological siblings being paired. The whole fetish is some weird cat and mouse game.

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casper_

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#72  Edited By casper_

i think the thing that bugs me about japanese sexuality is the portrayal of women as kind of nymphets with child like traits.

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#73  Edited By handlas

@JasonR86 said:

@Castermhief117 said:

@SomeJerk: That's right. Mainstream Japanese culture hates the "nerd" culture - I forgot the appropriate word for it - it's one reason why all Japanese pornography is censored by law.

Wait, what does Japanese 'nerd' culture have to do with Japanese porn?

It shows that the Japanese are creeps! Lotta rape related stuff when it is Japanese... i swear. Oh but they censor out the dongs anyway. I just want a man loving a woman when I wank.

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toowalrus

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#74  Edited By toowalrus

@LiquidPrince: Wait... are you telling me @FluxWaveZ: actually is this guy? Holy shit, I thought that was a gag... I- I'm impressed. (Don't bother telling me it's not true now! I've already accepted this as truth.)

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#75  Edited By FluxWaveZ

@TooWalrus said:

@LiquidPrince: Wait... are you telling me @FluxWaveZ: actually is this guy? Holy shit, I thought that was a gag... I- I'm impressed. (Don't bother telling me it's not true now! I've already accepted this as truth.)

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Oh... uh, sure yeah. I'm totally this individual above.

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#76  Edited By ghost_cat

I used to tour around cons for business for years, and I have never gotten over the creepiness of japanese fan service, let a lone some of the folks those places attract.

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toowalrus

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#77  Edited By toowalrus

@TooWalrus: The Picture Thread doesn't lie (I can't believe I remembered this).

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#78  Edited By TruthTellah

@AzHP: Consider this:

Fan service and pornography are inherently creepy in their own ways.

But other factors determine whether we think it has value which overcomes that creepiness.

One of those factors may be "Well, I'm aroused by it. So, if it isn't too egregious, I suppose it's alright." or "Society has established that this seems like a fine outlet for my sexual attention, and so I am not ashamed to appreciate this." or "uh... I guess this isn't illegal; so, sure." Your age, gender, race, personal standards, specific fetishes, -and- culture are factors in ultimately deciding whether you consider fan service or sexual content to be more desirable than it is creepy.

So, culturally, Japanese fetishism(and by extension, fan service) will more likely lack the additional cultural ties to push someone from another country over the edge into thinking it is acceptable and not simply creepy. For example, Japanese fetishism around little girls, little sisters, rape, and flat breasts. The little girls and rape fetishes seems to center around a Japanese cultural trope of appreciating purity and finding a lack of expressed sexual desire to be pure and desirable. So, women are portrayed as repressed in their sexuality with a secret desire to have a man guide them toward sexual pleasure. Rape is such a common trope due to a somewhat twisted form of this desire for purity, to the extent that possibly the purest woman in a sexual encounter would be one not wanting to have sex. Also, as far as fans go, it represents an opportunity to depict them having sex without suggesting that the character has feelings for someone else which might compete with the fan's affection.

Then, you see flat breasts fetishized, and that has a lot more to do with fetishizing the idea of "Japanese". Flat breasts have always had an appreciation based more on trends in Japanese breast size, and in an age where many Japanese women have larger breasts than at any point in the past, the fetishizing of flat breasts is naturally increasing. This can easily be misunderstood by other cultures which visually equate breast and hip size with fertility, as they would thus also equate small breasts with youth, and youth is very often something people are defensive about no matter what culture it is.

Now, having said that, there is also the issue of how much is acceptable within fiction vs what is acceptable in reality. The Japanese culture is far more willing to allow more to sit within the realm of fantasy. In other words, Japanese culture still frowns upon actually having sex with little girls, your little sister, or raping someone, but within fantasies such as animation and manga, these things are alright. Other cultures have their own differences in what they think is acceptable in fantasy and reality. For some cultures, the difference is actually rather narrow. For example, parts of American culture(of which there are many differences throughout the nation) don't really consider much of a difference between fantasy and reality when it comes to sexuality. So, in pornography and fan-service, what they're willing to see done by real people is similar to what they're willing to see done by fictional people. This applies both with sexuality and violence. You're likely to find depictions of realistic violence as much as you'll find animated violence. Animated, clearly fantasy, characters aren't likely to be doing much worse than live action characters. And that just has to do with how the culture sees the standards of fantasy vs reality.

Some parts of Japanese pornography and fan service will always be considered more creepy to others, as there isn't that additional cultural reinforcement to overcome one's concerns. In Japanese society, one can rationally be unsettled by thinking about the fetishizing of fictional little girls or the common reinforcement of rape fantasies, but then, your understanding of why people feel that way(or your own personal attraction to it) may make you overcome that unsettled feeling to just accept it as part of sexual fantasizing. For others, that may not be so easy, and sometimes, there may be legitimate problems with fetishes which people must address. I think it's debatable which Japanese fetishes are truly problematic, but it's certainly a conversation we may need to have. And the topic goes further into fan service, as a normal extension of such sexuality into more common media.

The more cultures interact, the more likely we're going to run into situations like this where one culture is more accepting of something than another. Often, these are just cultural differences, but sometimes, there are legitimate concerns. I won't go into my personal impressions on that here, as I'm sure others already will, but as far as the topic of -why-, I hope this might either give some things to think about or at least spark up more meaningful dialogue on the topic. :)

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Turambar

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#79  Edited By Turambar

@handlas said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Castermhief117 said:

@SomeJerk: That's right. Mainstream Japanese culture hates the "nerd" culture - I forgot the appropriate word for it - it's one reason why all Japanese pornography is censored by law.

Wait, what does Japanese 'nerd' culture have to do with Japanese porn?

It shows that the Japanese are creeps! Lotta rape related stuff when it is Japanese... i swear. Oh but they censor out the dongs anyway. I just want a man loving a woman when I wank.

Power fantasies aren't exactly unique to Japanese pornography. I wouldn't even say its more prevalent in Japanese pornography, just that its 2d animated format lets it take wider divergences from "realism".

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JasonR86

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#80  Edited By JasonR86

@handlas said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Castermhief117 said:

@SomeJerk: That's right. Mainstream Japanese culture hates the "nerd" culture - I forgot the appropriate word for it - it's one reason why all Japanese pornography is censored by law.

Wait, what does Japanese 'nerd' culture have to do with Japanese porn?

It shows that the Japanese are creeps! Lotta rape related stuff when it is Japanese... i swear. Oh but they censor out the dongs anyway. I just want a man loving a woman when I wank.

Have you been to a porn site lately? US shit is crazy.

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handlas

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#81  Edited By handlas

@JasonR86 said:

@handlas said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Castermhief117 said:

@SomeJerk: That's right. Mainstream Japanese culture hates the "nerd" culture - I forgot the appropriate word for it - it's one reason why all Japanese pornography is censored by law.

Wait, what does Japanese 'nerd' culture have to do with Japanese porn?

It shows that the Japanese are creeps! Lotta rape related stuff when it is Japanese... i swear. Oh but they censor out the dongs anyway. I just want a man loving a woman when I wank.

Have you been to a porn site lately? US shit is crazy.

Just a couple of hours ago actually *blush*

I guess I avoid the gross stuff.

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#82  Edited By dungbootle

What baffles me is the panty-shot obsession. I don't find it creepy as much as just strange. Really, that's what titillates you? That?

And tsundere is just a man-child thing, I get that much. Personally, it's just boring to see what is essentially the exact same character in every other anime/manga/Japanese game I experience.

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JasonR86

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#83  Edited By JasonR86

@handlas said:

@JasonR86 said:

@handlas said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Castermhief117 said:

@SomeJerk: That's right. Mainstream Japanese culture hates the "nerd" culture - I forgot the appropriate word for it - it's one reason why all Japanese pornography is censored by law.

Wait, what does Japanese 'nerd' culture have to do with Japanese porn?

It shows that the Japanese are creeps! Lotta rape related stuff when it is Japanese... i swear. Oh but they censor out the dongs anyway. I just want a man loving a woman when I wank.

Have you been to a porn site lately? US shit is crazy.

Just a couple of hours ago actually *blush*

I guess I avoid the gross stuff.

You're missing out buddy.

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colourful_hippie

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#84  Edited By colourful_hippie

Because it's fucking creepy.

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#85  Edited By TobbRobb

@Video_Game_King said:

Talking smack about KS and Nisemono!? You are both going down!

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Tsukihi is platinum pissed!

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#86  Edited By Video_Game_King

@TobbRobb:

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#87  Edited By TobbRobb

Try and devour me when I run at you with an Awl! Even Kings need to accept rules outside of their power! Prepare to die for this indiscretion!

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#88  Edited By GnaTSoL

Yea but anime characters really actually don't have an age..... cause you know...... They're not real maybe..

So basically it's just a number and they could rewrite the details to them being fairy spirits or anything else.

IT gets really weird indeed but I don't understand the feeling uncomfortable thing, since it's all animation.

Wouldn't death and suffering in American movies be considered weird to enjoy or sit down and watch? No, we just accept it properly.

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#89  Edited By Video_Game_King

@TobbRobb said:

Try and devour me when I run at you with an Awl! Even Kings need to accept rules outside of their power! Prepare to die for this indiscretion!

No, seriously. I have no clue what you're trying to tell me.
No, seriously. I have no clue what you're trying to tell me.
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the_OFFICIAL_jAPanese_teaBAG

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Cultural differences and shit

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TobbRobb

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#91  Edited By TobbRobb

@Video_Game_King: I'm really bored and should have been asleep 6 hours ago? Also, Nisemono is good. :(

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#92  Edited By Barrock

I've got no problem with sex, porn, or risque outfits (Both animated or non-animated). But when the character looks, or acts underage, it gets creepy. Doesn't matter the country of origin. You bring up Toddler's and Tiaras. Super creepy. I agree.

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#93  Edited By Video_Game_King

@TobbRobb said:

Also, Nisemono is good. :(

If you're into 14 year old girls getting naked for literally no damn reason. And phoenix cuckoo whatevers.

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Mr_Skeleton

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#94  Edited By Mr_Skeleton

Because Japan is way more extreme about and also usually does it to characters that look like 12 year olds.

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#95  Edited By TobbRobb

@Video_Game_King: I will neither confirm or deny anything you say! But that toothbrush thing is truly one of a kind. :D

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#96  Edited By Animasta

ugh whoever mentioned KS is a jerk.

goddamn KS defending brigade

but this also proves that it's not just the japanese that can do creepy anime porn shit (I'm specifically talking about the sex scenes KS defenders before you jump down my throat)

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NegativeCero

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#97  Edited By NegativeCero

@FluxWaveZ said:

@TooWalrus said:

@LiquidPrince: Wait... are you telling me @FluxWaveZ: actually is this guy? Holy shit, I thought that was a gag... I- I'm impressed. (Don't bother telling me it's not true now! I've already accepted this as truth.)

No Caption Provided

Oh... uh, sure yeah. I'm totally this individual above.

You just broke my mind with that picture. I like how you still manage to look intimidating with that pillow under your arm.

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david3cm

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#98  Edited By david3cm

@AzHP said: "I mean, a lot of my female friends really like the character designs of these sexualized characters, and even cosplay as them and pose for pictures for complete strangers. Are they creepy and weird for liking sexualized characters?"

No, they just have daddy issues.

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medacris

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#99  Edited By medacris

There's only a few instances when I find it really creepy and/or annoying:

  • When the character being sexualized is clearly underaged
  • When the character being sexualized does not want to be sexualized, and the game tries to get you to peek under her skirt or grab her boobs anyways
  • When the game is terrible and fanservice is thrown in merely to distract you from how terrible it is, OR has no substance beyond the sexualization aspect (nothing against porn games, but I couldn't play a game with porn as the only purpose for very long)
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ChuckDeNomolos

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#100  Edited By ChuckDeNomolos

Well, for one, it's an extremely cheap way to get attention for your product that adds nothing of value to it, unless you buy video games for the express purpose of getting aroused. If that's your thing, that's cool, but don't get all defensive when everyone who doesn't buy games for that reason gets a little weirded out.