Offended at being told I will go to hell.

Topic started by animegreen on July 2, 2009. Last post by Gamer_152 1 month, 2 weeks ago.
Post by Fallen189 (1,477 posts) See mini bio
1289 ACH / 17649 P

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@animegreen said:
" @NickM said:
" @Suicrat said:  Are you saying that if I want to be a good christian I should run around like a crazy and condemn atheists and people of other religion to hell? Because I don't think that that makes you a good christian, let alone person. "
NO NO NO!!! I dont think he was trying to say that. I think he was trying to say that the BIBLE says that is what christians should do.. Im glad you made the right choice though.

@Fallen189 said:
" But you have aa religion: Atheism. "
You join a religion. It is impossible to be born believing in god, Zeus, Flying spaghetti monster, or Allah. In fact every living person is born an atheist... would you say a infant is a member of a religion? No..So how is the absence of faith a religion... "
You have a belief that there is no God. That's a religion.


Post by animegreen (63 posts) See mini bio

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@Fallen189 said:
" @animegreen said:
" @NickM said:
" @Suicrat said:  Are you saying that if I want to be a good christian I should run around like a crazy and condemn atheists and people of other religion to hell? Because I don't think that that makes you a good christian, let alone person. "
NO NO NO!!! I dont think he was trying to say that. I think he was trying to say that the BIBLE says that is what christians should do.. Im glad you made the right choice though.

@Fallen189 said:
" But you have aa religion: Atheism. "
You join a religion. It is impossible to be born believing in god, Zeus, Flying spaghetti monster, or Allah. In fact every living person is born an atheist... would you say a infant is a member of a religion? No..So how is the absence of faith a religion... "
You have a belief that there is no God. That's a religion. "
I also believe that the world is round... is that a religion?

Using your logic believing that the earth isnt flat would be just as much a religion as Islam, Christianity, Greek mythology, or pastafarianism? Pardon my disagreement...


Post by Manatassi (312 posts) See mini bio
1999 ACH / 36296 P

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@Suicrat said:
" @Manatassi:
Once again, I feel the need to elucidate some of the basic nuances of atheism.

Atheism is not monochromatic, first of all, but I'm sure you already know that.

Second of all, a person doesn't need to be certain in their disbelief of the existence of God to be able to whole-mindedly reject the notion that other people's insistence on specific methods of personifying natural processes are a justifiable means of wielding political power

Thirdly, an atheist has the option of eventually being defiant to the God him/her/it/themself/ves. Even if a Christian could prove to me that the entity responsible for the entire universe came down and impregnated Mary, or came down and gave Moses the Ten Commandments, or came down and told Mohamed to propagate his truths, I would still have the option of asking "but where does the notion of worship and submission come in?"

Atheism isn't simply the certainty of godlessness (because as you said in your post, certainty to the extent we're describing is impossible), but the firm belief that just because a thing is responsible for my existence, doesn't mean I owe it my existence. "

The definition of Atheism was not what I was commenting to dispute, I am not taking issue with the beliefs expressed merely the idea that a system of belief is being proposed as fact in order to make judgement on another system of belief.

I do not care about the nuances of Atheism or your particular Beliefs, I merely wished to point out that I found this particular post/thread to be full of inconsistent ideas and an unsupportable argument due to its self destructive and contradictory nature. 
This amused me and I felt like commenting.

"Atheism is the position that deities do not exist, or the rejection of theism. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities"
 
A common representation of the Atheist beliefs, no?

I simply hold that the common definition of Atheism is a system of belief that rejects other systems of belief, how exactly this is of benefit to anyone I have no idea and little incentive to care.

It would appear to me that Atheism, which is so commonly adopted by people who feel that they get some satisfaction from challenging established systems of belief, be those religious or Governmental, is a useless belief system.
But then I would hold that the majority of people in the world could be considered "useless" not excluding myself. 

If my broad perception of your beliefs causes you to "feel the need to elucidate some of the basic nuances of atheism." then how can you stand in judgement of people who believe in a differing doctrine having the same needs.
If you do not then we are in agreement over the nature of this thread. However the person who started this thread was the subject/focus of my comments and my interest lay exclusively in commenting on HIS comment.

If you are distressed by the perceived incorrect comprehension of your idea of Atheism then perhaps it is time for you to consider that many others be they Christian, Muslim or Hindu may feel that their particular definition of their beliefs has been represented poorly by the common knowledge of society? Perhaps you can find empathy in yourself with the common plight of the people who are not understood and criticized on forums like these every day?

Perhaps people could stop before making Judgmental defensive posts such as the one at the head of this thread and take into account how their words may make people feel.

On the other hand people could continue to reinforce my negative skeptical view that they are simply making aggressive statements that provoke anger and negative feelings in others because they are utterly self involved and couldn't give a shit how what they say might affect other people.

That goes to the Atheists who pass judgement on the Christians as much as the Christians who shout fire and brimstone at the Atheists.

In my experience however the extremist Christians are far and few between and unless i seek them out I have no contact with them. On the other hand the sheer number of aggressive angry Atheists who express their Judgement on Christians for the very thing they are doing themselves seems apparent to me. 

Just because your own beliefs do not offend you do not assume that they are not hurtful to people who find solace in their beliefs. 

Commonly however the arguments seem to come from Atheists that they are angry at or against certain beliefs because of the harm that they do. I would say that Atheism has caused no more or less harm to people than any other Belief system as the People who use others Beliefs to cause harm are the real threat. 

People are the cause of suffering on people, NOT Christianity NOT the Muslim faith and NOT Atheism.  




Post by Fallen189 (1,477 posts) See mini bio
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@Animegreen

Don't be a precocious idiot. Stop comparing such out of the situation things like that when we're deferring to religion.

I could be like you and say "Durp, I dont believe in oxygen 'cause I can't see it"


Post by Suicrat (3,041 posts) See mini bio
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@Fallen189:
Belief is not the entirety of religion.
Institutions, books, buildings, symbols, holidays, and doctrines make up religion.

A person can have a belief there is a god but subscribe to any particular religion's interpretation of God.

Atheism is not unified, and it isn't branching either (the way Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism is). It is broad, chaotic melange of sometimes-conflicting ideas, notions, conceptions, and beliefs.

Besides, if we're to get into the original, etymological definition of the word religion: "A personal relationship with God", then no religion is religious, and atheism is definitely not religious.


By any definition of the word, aheism is not a religion. Whether or not people except the notion of godlessness on faith, on the other hand is an entirely different matter.


Post by Manatassi (312 posts) See mini bio
1999 ACH / 36296 P

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@animegreen said:
" @Fallen189 said:
" @animegreen said:
" @NickM said:
" @Suicrat said:  Are you saying that if I want to be a good christian I should run around like a crazy and condemn atheists and people of other religion to hell? Because I don't think that that makes you a good christian, let alone person. "
NO NO NO!!! I dont think he was trying to say that. I think he was trying to say that the BIBLE says that is what christians should do.. Im glad you made the right choice though.

@Fallen189 said:
" But you have aa religion: Atheism. "
You join a religion. It is impossible to be born believing in god, Zeus, Flying spaghetti monster, or Allah. In fact every living person is born an atheist... would you say a infant is a member of a religion? No..So how is the absence of faith a religion... "
You have a belief that there is no God. That's a religion. "
I also believe that the world is round... is that a religion? "
The Absence of an expressed Belief system is simply that, an Absence. In the same way a child cannot be convicted of murder or abuse due to the fact that they have not developed the ability to reason in such a way that responsibility can be accredited to them. 

The Definition of Religion is Mute.

The so called "religion" of Christianity is in-fact a Faith NOT a Religion. @Fallen189 to answer your statement. Your Belief that the world is "round" is a Belief or a matter of Faith. You could argue that you have enough evidence to support your Faith in the world being "round" and that you are content with that evidence. However it is quite viable that I could argue that your evidence is subjective and is being taken on Faith. It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that the world does not, in-fact, exist at all!

We function in our perceived "universe" by taking certain Beliefs on Faith. If we did not do so, we perceive that our universe would cease to be understandable, and we would be unable to function in the capacity we desire to. 

Perhaps we are all wrong and the only person with the right Idea is sitting in a mental institution insane with frustration at watching us walk around doing it all wrong. We take it on Faith that we are in-fact correct about our perception of the world. This does not make us right it simply keeps us in a state of being we like to call "sane". Or at least we Believe it does :D


Post by animegreen (63 posts) See mini bio

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@Manatassi said:
" @animegreen said: The Absence of an expressed Belief system is simply that, an Absence. In the same way a child cannot be convicted of murder or abuse due to the fact that they have not developed the ability to reason in such a way that responsibility can be accredited to them. 

The Definition of Religion is Mute.

The so called "religion" of Christianity is in-fact a Faith NOT a Religion. @Fallen189 to answer your statement. Your Belief that the world is "round" is a Belief or a matter of Faith. You could argue that you have enough evidence to support your Faith in the world being "round" and that you are content with that evidence. However it is quite viable that I could argue that your evidence is subjective and is being taken on Faith. It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that the world does not, in-fact, exist at all!

We function in our perceived "universe" by taking certain Beliefs on Faith. If we did not do so, we perceive that our universe would cease to be understandable, and we would be unable to function in the capacity we desire to. 

Perhaps we are all wrong and the only person with the right Idea is sitting in a mental institution insane with frustration at watching us walk around doing it all wrong. We take it on Faith that we are in-fact correct about our perception of the world. This does not make us right it simply keeps us in a state of being we like to call "sane". Or at least we Believe it does :D
"
Wth dude were a bunch of 17 year olds on a video game forum... quit bringing your harvard philospohy here take it somewhere else!!! j/k lol :D


Post by Suicrat (3,041 posts) See mini bio
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@Manatassi: I can agree with the general thrust of your argument. The offence the TC has taken is entirely manufactured by the TC, that is something I acknowledged earlier. Also, I am an atheist who can accept and embrace the value of religion in other people's lives.

The idea that some people have a place to go on a sunday (or a saturday, or a friday, or any other regularly or irregularly-kept schedule) to get together, and tell stories, and sing songs about how beautiful the world is, definitely a concrete value, and I will never reject that aspect of it.

However, the concept of Hell in many religions is a binding force that, when applied politically, ought to be examined critically.

And yes, I am aware that people of all faiths have been misrepresented by the most vocal and politically powerful among them. And to those who acknowledge that, and are doing their part to reform that aspect of their religion have my respect. Those that accept it for what it is, or pretend this phenomenon has value on its own, or turn a blind eye to the initiation of force in the name of their particular religion on the other hand, do not.

But I was trying to point out that atheism isn't the mere pretense of certainty of the non-existence of God. It can also be a denial that nature, the universe, entropy, or whatever other so-broad-as-to-be-interpreted-as-universal phenomenae have personae of their own, have wills of their own, or are somehow worthy of unthinking submission.

And your definition accepts my interpretation of atheism. An absence of theism isn't just the absence of god per se, but the assertion that particular branded systems of belief are not worth abdicating one's will.


Post by Manatassi (312 posts) See mini bio
1999 ACH / 36296 P

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@Suicrat said:
" @Fallen189:
Belief is not the entirety of religion.
Institutions, books, buildings, symbols, holidays, and doctrines make up religion.

A person can have a belief there is a god but subscribe to any particular religion's interpretation of God.

Atheism is not unified, and it isn't branching either (the way Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism is). It is broad, chaotic melange of sometimes-conflicting ideas, notions, conceptions, and beliefs.

Besides, if we're to get into the original, etymological definition of the word religion: "A personal relationship with God", then no religion is religious, and atheism is definitely not religious.


By any definition of the word, aheism is not a religion. Whether or not people except the notion of godlessness on faith, on the other hand is an entirely different matter. "

Using your own arguments Atheism is in-fact exactly what you have Labelled a Religion. 

Are there not many books published on the subject of Atheism? 
Are there not many differing opinions of people who all call themselves Atheist?
Are there not common popular cultures and symbols and fashions associated with aspects of Atheism?

It is absurd to deny any of these.

I think it would be foolish to attempt to attempt to pry Atheism apart form any other label such as Hindu simply with the crude tool of labeling those Religion and Atheism as something else. 

"It is broad, chaotic melange of sometimes-conflicting ideas, notions, conceptions, and beliefs."

What exactly do you think Christianity is? Your description of Atheism fits it pretty well.





Post by ninjakiller (1,029 posts) See mini bio
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You should see the movie Drag Me to Hell.  I thought it might be good, but man, it was awesome!  What's this thread about anyway?


Post by Termite (1,802 posts) See mini bio

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@Suicrat said:
" @NickM: I'm saying as a Christian your primary concern should be to find the best possible way of getting as many people to heaven as possible. That involves getting people to 1) Accept Jesus as their lord and savior, (2) Admit they are sinners, (3) Confess their sins and atone, so that they will be allowed into heaven. For some Christians, that involves telling atheists that they're going to hell, for others it involves trying to get alcoholics and drug addicts to replace their addiction to substances with an addiction to Christ; for yet others it involves going on "missions" to the "godless" parts of the world, and attempting to teach them the ways of Christ and get them to devote their own lives to the prospect of heaven.If you do anything less than that then what's the point of being a Christian, unless you're not really a Christian, and you just tell people you're not, so as not to offend your family, neighbours, et cetera.If you're being a Christian who's just "living his/her life", and not devoting your life to the post-mortal salvation of mankind then you're going to hell too. "
Then I guess my grandfather, a man who went to seminary and is an ordained minister of the Lutheran Church, is going to hell then. His wife has done a lot of stuff such as working with churches in Africa to help locals but I can't think of that many things outside of his work as a minister which would be categorized as work towards people's post-mortal salvation. He doesn't proselytize people, and in fact just this month he worked together with a Rabbi to oversee a mixed-faith wedding (One of my Christian cousins marrying a Jewish man.) He doesn't go around telling people they're going to hell, helping addicts cure their addiction and replace it with Christ, and I don't think he's ever been on a mission anywhere to convert people. He has certainly devoted his life to Christianity, but he hasn't devoted it to converting people because not all Christians are like that or have to be like that. He thinks we should respect other people's opinions and not force our own ideas down their throats.

The Bible is a long book, and one that's open to a lot of interpretation. The whole thing is further complicated by the fact that my grandpa isn't a non-Orthodox Lutheran who has preached in the past that he believes the Bible is not meant to be read as a textbook; it should be read as a moral guide to help us get through life.

There are lots of different types of Christians out there Suicrat, and it's not up to you to judge what makes a person a good Christian.


Post by Manatassi (312 posts) See mini bio
1999 ACH / 36296 P

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@Suicrat said:
" @Manatassi: I can agree with the general thrust of your argument. The offence the TC has taken is entirely manufactured by the TC, that is something I acknowledged earlier. Also, I am an atheist who can accept and embrace the value of religion in other people's lives.The idea that some people have a place to go on a sunday (or a saturday, or a friday, or any other regularly or irregularly-kept schedule) to get together, and tell stories, and sing songs about how beautiful the world is, definitely a concrete value, and I will never reject that aspect of it.However, the concept of Hell in many religions is a binding force that, when applied politically, ought to be examined critically.And yes, I am aware that people of all faiths have been misrepresented by the most vocal and politically powerful among them. And to those who acknowledge that, and are doing their part to reform that aspect of their religion have my respect. Those that accept it for what it is, or pretend this phenomenon has value on its own, or turn a blind eye to the initiation of force in the name of their particular religion on the other hand, do not.But I was trying to point out that atheism isn't the mere pretense of certainty of the non-existence of God. It can also be a denial that nature, the universe, entropy, or whatever other so-broad-as-to-be-interpreted-as-universal phenomenae have personae of their own, have wills of their own, or are somehow worthy of unthinking submission.And your definition accepts my interpretation of atheism. An absence of theism isn't just the absence of god per se, but the assertion that particular branded systems of belief are not worth abdicating one's will. "

I am getting the Impression that I appear to be debating semantics with you over this topic on a Gaming forum lol.

I'm going to stop now as its getting a bit heavy and probably throwing a bunch of people. 
Debating these matters in a forum is not practical and its a bit difficult to get ideas down clearly without the benefit of face to face debate. 

That and I'm hungry and the kiddo just got back from school so I'm going to go make dinner :)

Your posts were interesting, and altho I do not always agree I do respect your opinion.

Have fun :)



Post by Suicrat (3,041 posts) See mini bio
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@Manatassi: But just like a person can accept God on faith but not subscribe to a religion, I can accept godlessness on faith and think Richard Dawkins isn't worth a second thought.

There are no atheist holidays.

My personal atheism is A-religious, but Theism can also be A-religious as well. (Ignore the dash, I was trying to make it visible that those are not typos.)

Some people do build religions around their specific atheistic notions. In fact, Buddhism doesn't personify creation but we call it a religion.

At some point though, words become meaningless when we blur the lines between thesis and antithesis to this extent.

And Christians may all have a tangled mess of different interpretations of different religious texts, but those that pay their tithe are submitting and subscribing to the beliefs of the people to whom they pay their tithe.

You would be able to say the same to me if I donated money to any atheist organization, but I don't.

You can however make that point about other atheists.

I personally am both Atheistic and Areligious, some people are one and not the other, some people are neither.


Post by animegreen (63 posts) See mini bio

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@Termite said:
" Then I guess my grandfather, a man who went to seminary and is an ordained minister of the Lutheran Church, is going to hell then."
No, hes not going anywhere, he will be a memory, like my mother my grandmother, and everyone else who dies... because without the brain there can be no consciousness....  fact. dont worry though... his genetics survive with you and his offspring.


Post by Manatassi (312 posts) See mini bio
1999 ACH / 36296 P

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@animegreen said:
" @Manatassi said:
" @animegreen said: The Absence of an expressed Belief system is simply that, an Absence. In the same way a child cannot be convicted of murder or abuse due to the fact that they have not developed the ability to reason in such a way that responsibility can be accredited to them. 

The Definition of Religion is Mute.

The so called "religion" of Christianity is in-fact a Faith NOT a Religion. @Fallen189 to answer your statement. Your Belief that the world is "round" is a Belief or a matter of Faith. You could argue that you have enough evidence to support your Faith in the world being "round" and that you are content with that evidence. However it is quite viable that I could argue that your evidence is subjective and is being taken on Faith. It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that the world does not, in-fact, exist at all!

We function in our perceived "universe" by taking certain Beliefs on Faith. If we did not do so, we perceive that our universe would cease to be understandable, and we would be unable to function in the capacity we desire to. 

Perhaps we are all wrong and the only person with the right Idea is sitting in a mental institution insane with frustration at watching us walk around doing it all wrong. We take it on Faith that we are in-fact correct about our perception of the world. This does not make us right it simply keeps us in a state of being we like to call "sane". Or at least we Believe it does :D
"
Wth dude were a bunch of 17 year olds on a video game forum... quit bringing your harvard philospohy here take it somewhere else!!! j/k lol :D "
HeHe I had to comment on this!

Thanks :P

I never actually attended Harvard but the comment is appreciated :)


Post by Suicrat (3,041 posts) See mini bio
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@Termite: You're right. I apologize.

I have been a real dick to some people in this thread and elsewhere; I apologize to all of you as well.


Post by animegreen (63 posts) See mini bio

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@Manatassi said:
which university do you attend?


Post by Suicrat (3,041 posts) See mini bio
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@Manatassi: Indeed, we've gone too far down the semantic rabbit hole!

Let's just all agree to be a little more understanding of the aspects of life that people take on faith....

Except insofar as they impose on you against your...... godlessness I wish there was another word for 'free will' that was less controversial ;)


Post by animegreen (63 posts) See mini bio

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maybe... it would have been a good idea to mention that I go to a private christian university (because I wasnt accepted to UT Austin and it was my backup) But since I go to a private christian university I get told im going to hell on a daily basis because im like the only atheist at the university and everyone tries to "convert " me .... it really sux. Im doing whatever I can to go to another university... but I missed the deadline for transfer because im irresponsible lawl.


Post by kmdrkul (1,801 posts) See mini bio
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The way I see it, there are three types of atheists:  the type that have found peace and comfort in their non-belief, the type that are frustrated as all hell (get it?) with religion and follow atheism as their sanctuary, and the kind that like to tell people they are atheists for the vanity of it.  Take a guess at which one you think you are, OP.


Post by Everyones_A_Critic (1,694 posts) See mini bio
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@Arkthemaniac said:
"Quit being a prissy baby and stop caring what people say. You have the power to take offense to things, and you give yourself that power. You don't need to. "

@Minos said:
"

You're kind of self centered thinking that people actually spend time thinking about your future and beliefs.... nobody actually cares what you believe in or not...

"
These both seem like good responses. Of course people are going to fuck with you if you're an atheist. That's why you don't wear it on your fucking sleeve when you're out in public. I highly doubt if you're not professing your faith (or lack thereof) in public people are going to somehow pick up on the fact that you're an atheist and give you shit about it. Yeah, I'm an atheist too, but I've never had anyone ask me about it. If a job application asks "Religious Beliefs?" Fucking A right I put Catholic, you know why? Because it looks better than "Godless Sodomite". You know what you actually believe and that's all that matters.


Post by The_A_Drain (3,216 posts) See mini bio
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@Everyones_A_Critic:

You realise the sodomites only crime was being distrustfull of outsiders right? Not all that stuff christians would have you believe. They were rude and unwelcoming to Lot and his family, that's the sin they were guilty of, the modern accepted meaning of the word sodomy (IE all the sexual deviancy etc) was twisted into the meaning of the story much later on.


Post by HandsomeDead (5,254 posts) See mini bio
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There was a preacher a few times in my town centre and he told me I was going to burn in Hell unless I changed my ways. The first time I was kind of creeped out by it but after like the fifth time, I just got used to it. Don't pay no mind to what anyone else has to say about religious stuff.


Post by Everyones_A_Critic (1,694 posts) See mini bio
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@The_A_Drain said:
"@Everyones_A_Critic: You realise the sodomites only crime was being distrustfull of outsiders right? Not all that stuff christians would have you believe. They were rude and unwelcoming to Lot and his family, that's the sin they were guilty of, the modern accepted meaning of the word sodomy (IE all the sexual deviancy etc) was twisted into the meaning of the story much later on. "
Yeah, I realize that. I don't believe what the bible says about most of that stuff, but I was just saying it acknowledging the fact that not everyone knows it. Truth be told, Fred Phelps came to mind and I remembered his warm greeting of "Good Evening, Godless Sodomites!" in one of his crazy fundie videos.


Post by The_A_Drain (3,216 posts) See mini bio
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@Everyones_A_Critic:

I always refuse to sign those 'ethnic background' and 'whats ur religion?" forms. Unless they are compulsory, then I give the minimum answers possible (even though legally, they aren't supposed to be able to force you to fill those out, here anyway) i'm quite happy to leave religion blank, it doesnt lose or gain me any favor in my experience.


Post by Commando (915 posts) See mini bio
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I still think you being offended by this is the same as someone who believes in Santa Clause telling me I'm getting coal in my stocking. Since I don't believe in Santa.


Post by iam3green (2,353 posts) See mini bio
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i have to say that u shouldn't care if people tell u that ur going to  hell. i don't believe in hell but i do believe after u die u will go somewhere else.


Post by CL60 (5,721 posts) See mini bio
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I have no religion. I have no religious beliefs.


Post by ahriman22 (1,796 posts) See mini bio
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Who cares? Know how many times I've been told I'll go to hell because I'm Atheist? Lots. I just laugh, give them the finger and walk away.


Post by Mikemcn (1,661 posts) See mini bio
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Dude if your that bothered by that you never should have become an atheist, since you dont believe in hell, how can you go there? in your beliefs it doesnt even exist, think about it