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#51 Posted by Hunter5024 (5612 posts) -

This basically directly addresses the thing I was bitching about in the Strip Search thread, so I have to give them props for doing the right thing and bringing back what the fans asked for. I think there were smarter ways to do it than this, but whatever. I still find it a little hard to stomach super successful companies raking in "donations" like this though, so I can kind of understand the outrage, but people really are overreacting.

#52 Posted by Viking_Funeral (1765 posts) -

@supamon said:

People can do what they want with their money but this is kinda ridiculous.

You stole my reaction, and I want it back.

#53 Posted by Milkman (16647 posts) -

I really don't care about this all that much but I get where people who do have a problem with it are coming from. I've always seen Kickstarter as a donation service. "If this doesn't get funded, this product will not be made." I know that the John Drake Flight Tracker (the only Kickstarter I have donated to, for the record) wouldn't be made without my donation. This is not a donation, as clearly evident from their $10 goal. You give money to this Kickstarter, you're buying a product, not assuring that the product will be made. Penny Arcade has the money to do their own podcast, they're just looking for a way to monetize it and using Kickstarter to do it, which I don't think was the original purpose for the service.

I'm not blaming them for trying to make money on their podcast because hey, everybody's just trying to get that paper. But if they had just done a subscription deal on their site instead of bolting it onto what is suppose to be a donation site, there would be no controversy.

#54 Edited by Phished0ne (2497 posts) -

@rebgav said:

@icicle7x3 said:

@sergio said:

You aren't using the word "shakedown" correctly.

How about now?

Hmm. I see what you're saying but I think I prefer this definition.

Personally I prefer this one.

Back on topic though, the only thing that miffs me about this whole ordeal is this.

"Each episode will be between 20-60 minutes, edited for the soul of wit. Backers get them first, and after two weeks every episode (barring those exclusive to backers) will go up as pay-what-you-want."

Good luck with that one guys. I love ya and all, but yeesh. First, you kickstart a podcast, then you try to get people that didnt pitch in to pay for it? I understand the idea of pay-as-you-want, but still. I understand that if i wish i could pay nothing for it if i wanted, but the gall of seems kinda weird to me. Who is trying to get people to pay for their podcast anyway? i can only think of 2 examples off the top of my head and their models arent the standard pay for an ep model for the most part. Jimmy Pardo's Never Not Funny (i believe his is a 20 or 30 minutes free of each ep, you pay for the whole show by going premium or buying eps in season bundles), and Marc Maron's WTF (every episode is free for i think 2 months then you pay for the archive). Just seems weird for them to try to outright monetize it(although its pay what you want.).

#55 Posted by supamon (1333 posts) -

@supamon said:

People can do what they want with their money but this is kinda ridiculous.

You stole my reaction, and I want it back.

Sure! You can have it back after I kickstart it with a pledge of 5 bucks.

(JK) I edited my post so you really can have it back.

#56 Posted by RollingZeppelin (1958 posts) -

This just seems like people getting pissed off cause they're in a pissy mood. Go cry some more you poor souls, hardly anyone is listening or gives a shit, and the ones that do, they don't give enough of a shit to do anything about it.

#57 Edited by KoolAid (910 posts) -

Here's another thing I don't understand about the outrage... the additional donations are funding additional content BEYOND the podcast. There is a reason to donate more, even though the "goal" has been hit.

I feel that Penny Arcade has been very upfront with where these kickstarters come from. Right now, they make money off ads. But working off donations is more of a paid subscriber model and is almost universally more preferable for consumers and for content providers that care about their art. The idea that Penny Arcade is a "successful business" therefore should not be kickstarted doesn't really make sense if you understand how these businesses are run. They are successful in that they CAN run their business off ads (and other things but mostly ads). But they would prefer (and you should too) if they ran off donations. This money doesn't line their pockets. There are employees to pay, there is office space to rent. There are a LOT of costs. This is where that money goes.

I mean, we of all people should understand this... Giant Bomb is one of the best subscription models out there!

#59 Edited by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

They're not doing it in the spirit of what Kickstarter is. This would be a nonissue if PA did the whole thing on their own site but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see the project on KS.

#60 Posted by Sergio (2080 posts) -

The best part about this is everyone getting upset about it. People are paying because they like them. I personally don't donate to Kickstarters I find stupid, so I'm not giving to this, nor did I give to their first one, or even the equally dumb Spelunky Dance video or the John Drake flight tracker. If people want to throw their money at these projects, so be it.

#61 Posted by rebgav (1429 posts) -
#62 Posted by ajamafalous (11959 posts) -

Setting the goal as $10 seems like it undermines the system.

#63 Edited by wjb (1655 posts) -

PAX is great for the public, but I personally haven't identified with Penny Arcade in a while. I went on the site the other day and they have their own reality show? It was just a bunch of nerds with anxiety issues racing go-karts poorly.

#64 Posted by NicksCorner (415 posts) -

@posh said:

"nobody is forcing you to spend your money on it" is a bullshit argument against this. that shouldn't mean you can't criticise it. it's like telling somebody "if you don't like romney, don't vote for him" and expecting that to silence any kind of political debate. the internet is usually pretty fast to question the integrity of journalistic outlets, constantly guessing at money changing hands between writers and publishers, and it also hates the money-grabbing capitalist bigwigs of video games like EA and activision, ruining video games with their always-online and DRM procedures. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, I just can't see how you can defend this after denouncing all of that. is it just because it's penny arcade? let's not forget how shitty penny arcade are and how unfunny and reprehensible their content is. they have a bunch of money; they don't need donations. they didn't set the goal at $10 thinking they would just get $10, they just wanted a bunch more money. it's shameless, and probably against kickstarter's rules.

Holy shit, just spend wasted about an hour following the link posted.

The original comic was pretty funny.

#65 Posted by preaser (38 posts) -

Irony

The "bandwidth is expensive" and "they need the money" defense arguments seem to forget that this is Penny Arcade. The same Penny Arcade that has two online TV shows, three major gaming conventions, and a popular webcomic that sells merchandise like hotcakes. Do you know why the goal was $10? Because they don't need your money.

And yet people are giving away $100 to have their name read on the first episode. Penny Arcade aren't the monsters here. The internet is just fucking stupid.

yeah, this.

#66 Posted by ChaosTony (102 posts) -

Hey guys! Donate a THOUSAND FRIGGIN DOLLARS and you can play like an hour of co-op on some game!

I understand them trying to make a living, but these guys are part of an EXTREMELY successful business. One that just a few months ago was given $500,000 to go "ad-free". Now on top of that, they put up a Kickstarter with a mock "goal" of $10 that is basically saying "we know you idiots will give us money, so why bother with a number?"

Let me make something clear: I am a HUGE fan of Penny Arcade. I own multiple collections of their comics, and have played through the first two Rain Slick games. This to me just REEKS of greed, and overall it hurts Kickstarter, in my opinion.

Imagine if Coca-Cola made a Kickstarter to "create a new flavor of coke", wouldn't that be disgusting? I think Penny Arcade is coming REEEEALLY close to that.

#67 Edited by kishinfoulux (2282 posts) -

Then don't give them money if you don't want. This isn't complicated: See something on Kickstarter that you want to support? Toss a few bucks their way. See something you don't care for? Move on with your life.

This. People get bent out of shape for the dumbest fucking reasons.

#68 Posted by devilzrule27 (1239 posts) -

gross but whatever.

#69 Posted by Eidderf (506 posts) -

@chaostony: No that would be fine, throwing your money at this or anything video game related is basically the same thing. It's just as wasteful in that it's not food or other living expenses you are spending your money on just a frivolous piece of entertainment, lots of companies probably don't need your money to keep the lights on but people buy their products (in this case you are getting access to their podcasts) because they want to.

I don't understand the problem, they could give people access to the podcasts for free, but they don't want to and that's their choice. I'm not donating anything towards this, just like I'm not supporting dlc costumes for Injustice characters or something equally as dumb, but at the end of the day if they are selling it and people are buying it good on them for being smart enough to make some money off those people.

#70 Posted by Teaspoon83 (623 posts) -

It's been said, let people pay if they want to pay, don't worry about it if you don't. Why get mad about it?

Lot of you already subscribe to Giant Bomb and why do you do it? Because you support the guys for all the great work they do. I don't care about removing ads. Giant Bomb supplies me with great content and it is my way of saying thank you so why not help pay the bills and somehow buy the guys a beer.

Remember when the podcast was going to be subscriber only, free a week later and everybody bitched about it, calling them greedy and a goal was needed to keep the podcast free for everybody? No? Well that happened.

Different website but a website with a strong fan base willing to pay for what is their entertainment so let PA do it. Instead of a goal why not consider the base $10 a subscription to 20 podcast. How is this any different to what you pay for GB at $5 a month for their premium content? Lots of people are paying the $55 level which sounds a lot like the annual sub here to get neat content. How is this different? Come on people, don't get upset and try to demand others to join you on your crusade.

Let me repeat again, pay if you want to, don't if you don't but get upset over things that really matter in your life.

#71 Edited by bibamatt (1086 posts) -

No interest in that, but I would pay for a weekly/bi-weekly video show where they play D&D with or without Chris Perkins. The one a year they do at the expo is never enough!

YES YES YES. I'd easily pay what the equivalent of a Giant Bomb subscription for even monthly podcasts with Perkins DMing. Those guys are a dream team and I steal bits from them for my own campaigns all the time because they're so damn great and inventive.

#72 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

Let me pose this question: What benefit does having this on Kickstarter have over putting a button on their own website that says "If you like what you hear, feel free to donate!"

A lot of free PR? Look how many people are pissed but in fact people are talking about this podcast and know that it will come back now.

#73 Edited by Shaunage (700 posts) -

I put in $10 because I used to love that podcast. Have a cry about it.

#75 Edited by Oldirtybearon (4706 posts) -

Lot of you already subscribe to Giant Bomb and why do you do it? Because you support the guys for all the great work they do. I don't care about removing ads. Giant Bomb supplies me with great content and it is my way of saying thank you so why not help pay the bills and somehow buy the guys a beer.

Remember when the podcast was going to be subscriber only, free a week later and everybody bitched about it, calling them greedy and a goal was needed to keep the podcast free for everybody? No? Well that happened.

Different website but a website with a strong fan base willing to pay for what is their entertainment so let PA do it. Instead of a goal why not consider the base $10 a subscription to 20 podcast. How is this any different to what you pay for GB at $5 a month for their premium content? Lots of people are paying the $55 level which sounds a lot like the annual sub here to get neat content. How is this different? Come on people, don't get upset and try to demand others to join you on your crusade.

Let me repeat again, pay if you want to, don't if you don't but get upset over things that really matter in your life.

Giant Bomb and Whiskey Media introduced subs to stay in business. Penny Arcade runs these kickstarters because they like money. These two things, while not mutually exclusive, should not be conflated when talking about a huge (relatively) corporation/charity like Penny Arcade in comparison to a small website stuck in some back corner office.

That's the issue people have. Penny Arcade used to be a scrappy underdog like Rocky Balboa taking on Apollo Creed, but that was a long long time ago. Now they're Rocky Balboa looking to fight Clubber Lang but they're still patronizing their audience as if they were the scrappy upstart. To be honest it's skeezy and more than a little insulting to the spirit of kickstarter.

#76 Edited by Akyho (1597 posts) -

#77 Posted by Winternet (8014 posts) -

So I went to Kickstarter and clicked "What is Kickstarter". First thing that they say is "Kickstarter is a new way to fund creative projects." Already, this PA thing is going against what Kickstarter is. Because no one is funding anything here. It's donations. There is a difference. And if they wanted donations (for god-only-knows what reason) there are other platforms to do so. I think it was a bad judgement call from them and I can't see how in the world this is beneficial for them.

#78 Posted by EXTomar (4670 posts) -

There is a blurred definition of what is a "project" is on KickStarter for years anyway. I would like PA to be a bit clearer and more serious about stuff like this but KickStarter is the perfect platform for this "we really don't want your money but we have a good cause thing" in theory.

#79 Posted by Dagbiker (6964 posts) -

In one year kickstarter went from a place where people who needed money to make things went. To a place where people who have money make more. Just like everything else.

And people are fucking stupid.

50$ a year for a subscription to weekly video content = too much.

100$ for your name to be hidden amongst a bunch of other peoples = great deal.

#80 Posted by JeanLuc (3579 posts) -

I love Penny Arcade, and I loved the DLC podcast and will likely listen to this new one, but something about this feels gross to me. I feel like they are abusing kickstarter. I know your better then this penny arcade.

#81 Posted by OfficeGamer (1087 posts) -

Haha they just made 51 THOUSAND dollars for a 10 dalla goal

my pants are wet and I don't know why

#82 Posted by Cretaceous_Bob (506 posts) -

Most people spend their money in dumber ways every day. Who cares.

Now if they wanted to revive their old DnD podcasts (these PAX ones aren't enough), I'd pay top dollar.

#83 Edited by mracoon (4967 posts) -

My only problem is that they should put the actual cost of the podcast as the Kickstarter goal and not a joke value. If they really only needed $10 to do a podcast then why do a Kickstarter at all.

Moderator
#84 Edited by LackingSaint (1787 posts) -

Just seems like another weird perversion of Kickstarter from "hey, support the development of a product by people who otherwise couldn't afford to make it happen" into "HEY YOU LIKE THESE GUYS, GIVE THEM SOME MONEY".

People can spend their money however they want, but it seems really dumb to me that already over $50,000 has been given to what is already one of the most influential, successful gaming sites there are. That could fund the lives of several game developers.

#85 Edited by Abendlaender (2783 posts) -

Yeah, no thanks. That's kinda like EA starting a kickstarter for Battlefield 4, they are going to do it anyway, they are millionaires but fuck it, if you can get some extra money from idiots why the hell not, right?

Oooooh what's that? I can play with them on Xbox-Live for one hour if I donate 1.000$? Fuck, that's an amazing deal, where is my cheque book? Watch and learn GiantBomb, that's how you interact with your community!

#86 Posted by Zaccheus (1792 posts) -

@koolaid said:

I can't tell if the OP is being sarcastic or not. This is just another reason we need a dedicated sarcasm font.

Yes! We definitely need some kind of internet sarcasm standard. "What a shake down" seems like a very sarcastic thing to say in this context, but who knows...

#87 Edited by ProfessorEss (7318 posts) -

@dagbiker said:

In one year kickstarter went from a place where people who needed money to make things went. To a place where people who have money make more. Just like everything else.

I can't wait to see where it is a year from now.

#88 Posted by Milkman (16647 posts) -

@posh said:

"nobody is forcing you to spend your money on it" is a bullshit argument against this. that shouldn't mean you can't criticise it. it's like telling somebody "if you don't like romney, don't vote for him" and expecting that to silence any kind of political debate. the internet is usually pretty fast to question the integrity of journalistic outlets, constantly guessing at money changing hands between writers and publishers, and it also hates the money-grabbing capitalist bigwigs of video games like EA and activision, ruining video games with their always-online and DRM procedures. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, I just can't see how you can defend this after denouncing all of that. is it just because it's penny arcade? let's not forget how shitty penny arcade are and how unfunny and reprehensible their content is. they have a bunch of money; they don't need donations. they didn't set the goal at $10 thinking they would just get $10, they just wanted a bunch more money. it's shameless, and probably against kickstarter's rules.

Holy shit, just spend wasted about an hour following the link posted.

The original comic was pretty funny.

I didn't really have a problem with the original comic either but Penny Arcade's handling of the situation was goddamn embarrassing. The amount of harassment and disgusting misogyny that was doled out by their "supporters" without any kind of response or denouncement from Penny Arcade was ridiculous.

#89 Posted by Humanity (9053 posts) -

The point isn't that it's only $10 but that they know people will contribute more. They are essentially opening up a pointless kickstarter that should be against the rules and they'll profit from it. If they don't need the money than why bother doing this at all? Certainly not because thousands of dedicated fans will donate money regardless, money they don't need. It's exploiting your fanbase. Kickstarter is a platform for people like the developers of FTL to get a project off the ground. It's not meant to be used as a glorified tip jar. If they wanted donations they should have put a big button on their homepage that said "send us money if you want" with a PayPal link. We can sit here and talk about how no one is forcing anyone to pay but that doesn't change the fact that this is a gross misuse of a system meant to help out financially struggling entrepreneurs.

#90 Edited by rebgav (1429 posts) -

I think a lot of people in this thread are confused about what Kickstarter is and how it operates. It seems to me that it's about raising funds for creative projects, I don't see the poverty clause that so many anti-PA arguments are based on.

Setting the funding goal at $10 speaks to their commitment to deliver on the project regardless of the amount raised. It also means that their project was guaranteed to pay out which is obviously upsetting some people. It seems safe to say that $10 wasn't going to cover the cost of buying audio equipment and paying an editor to put their podcast together but it's not as though kickstarter initial goals are usually anything other than fantasies and fabrications compared to the actual budget needed for a project - I don't understand why the fact that Penny Arcade didn't bother to lie to you upfront about how much money they wanted is somehow an affront. They aren't even bothering to lie about needing the money, they say that they intend to make the podcast in some form regardless of the funds raised right there in their Kickstarter pitch.

I fully expect that PA will be back with another Kickstarter for their next project, and the next and the next. If they can use their audience to crowdsource funding for their experiments why wouldn't they? If all they wanted to do was exploit their fanbase for a couple of grand they'd stick a subscription plan on their website and a tip jar under every piece of content and watch the money stack up. Somehow it is worse to actually pitch their ideas to their community and let their fans decide the scope and scale of their content?

#91 Edited by Teaspoon83 (623 posts) -

I can't wait for PA to do subs so you can see the third panel of every comic. Come on people.

#92 Edited by Winternet (8014 posts) -

@rebgav said:

It seems to me that it's about raising funds for creative projects

But, that's not what PA is doing. PA is not raising funds for their creative project. They're basically asking for donations. And that's not what Kickstarter is about. They should have used another platform.

#93 Edited by rebgav (1429 posts) -

@rebgav said:

It seems to me that it's about raising funds for creative projects

But, that's not what PA is doing. PA is not raising funds for their creative project. They're basically asking for donations. And that's not what Kickstarter is about. They should have used another platform.

All kickstarter pledges are donations, so the distinction is meaningless. There is a cost associated with creating and archiving their podcast, they would like to mitigate the cost by crowdsourcing some funding. They are raising funds to pay for their project. That's exactly what Kickstarter is about.

#94 Posted by Winternet (8014 posts) -

@rebgav said:

@winternet said:

@rebgav said:

It seems to me that it's about raising funds for creative projects

But, that's not what PA is doing. PA is not raising funds for their creative project. They're basically asking for donations. And that's not what Kickstarter is about. They should have used another platform.

All kickstarter pledges are donations, so the distinction is meaningless. There is a cost associated with creating and archiving their podcast, they would like to mitigate the cost by crowdsourcing some funding. They are raising funds to pay for their project. That's exactly what Kickstarter is about.

A donation is a gift. Something you give without expecting/wanting something in return. That's not what happens with kickstarter. You expect/want something in return. Even more so with the reward system that is in place. (In fact, if you make a search for the word "donation" in the kickstarter "about" page, you find zero results.)

By placing the goal on 10$, they're saying that 10$ will fund their podcast endeavor. That's ludicrous. 10$ doesn't fund shit. It's a mockery, really.

#95 Posted by wefwefasdf (6729 posts) -

Should they maybe use a different service for what is basically a pre-order? Maybe, but Kickstarter allows for some interesting features that I don't think others websites offers--such as stretch goals and different reward tiers.

Each episode will be sold with the "pay what you want" method, so they are implying that each episode of the podcast is worth spending money on. If you don't think that a podcast should be paid for, that's an entirely different issue. Those who pay $10 will have earlier access to each episodes, and are essentially paying 50 cents an episode.

I would find something better to be angry about.

#96 Posted by rebgav (1429 posts) -

@rebgav said:

@winternet said:

@rebgav said:

It seems to me that it's about raising funds for creative projects

But, that's not what PA is doing. PA is not raising funds for their creative project. They're basically asking for donations. And that's not what Kickstarter is about. They should have used another platform.

All kickstarter pledges are donations, so the distinction is meaningless. There is a cost associated with creating and archiving their podcast, they would like to mitigate the cost by crowdsourcing some funding. They are raising funds to pay for their project. That's exactly what Kickstarter is about.

A donation is a gift. Something you give without expecting/wanting something in return. That's not what happens with kickstarter. You expect/want something in return. Even more so with the reward system that is in place. (In fact, if you make a search for the word "donation" in the kickstarter "about" page, you find zero results.)

By placing the goal on 10$, they're saying that 10$ will fund their podcast endeavor. That's ludicrous. 10$ doesn't fund shit. It's a mockery, really.

At what point is this Kickstarter different to any other Kickstarter? Other than the low goal it's exactly the same as any other prospect on the site, you may pledge money for the prospect of future goods and/or services. Kickstarter calls their donations pledges but when there's no system in place to force a funded project to deliver there can be no expectation of a return on your pledge. If people pledging to Kickstarter projects don't realize that they're throwing their money into a hole with no recourse if projects don't deliver, that's just sad.

Bothering to read the pitch is key - they are explicitly not saying that $10 will fund their project, they're saying that the funds raised will fulfill rewards and improve their product.

Unlike most Kickstarters, this one will be funded and will deliver on the product on offer - that fulfilling the promise and purpose of the service is a "mockery" of that service says all that needs to be said about the public perception of crowdsourcing.

#97 Posted by Ekami (256 posts) -

why do people keep saying they don't need the money so they should be asking? don't they want to make money all the time? doesn't everybody?

#98 Posted by Mrsignerman44 (1100 posts) -

Why do people hate Penny Arcade? They opened up an expo for their fans for god sakes!

#99 Posted by Winternet (8014 posts) -

@rebgav: I'm not saying that the expectations are 100% guaranteed, I'm saying they exist. When you're donating, there are no expectations. The difference is pretty easy to understand.

About the 10$, they say and I quote "If funded we'll produce a season of 20 original episodes of "Downloadable Content”". They are saying that if they get funded, aka reach their goal, aka get 10$, then they will produce the podcasts. The 10$ are what is making this project possible. That's what they are saying.

@rebgav said:

Unlike most Kickstarters, this one will be funded and will deliver on the product on offer

Your certainty on this is pretty funny, in light of what you said just before.

#100 Edited by YoungFrey (1321 posts) -

Here's how I see it. Penny Arcade primarily gives away what them make for free. The comic? Free. The multiple weekly videos? Free. Hell, PAX even costs much less than it could. So their fans often feel like giving them some cash. Most people can't go to PAX, not everyone wants T-shirts. So a project like this lets people give them whatever they feel like. And this is ignoring that making this podcast won't be zero effort. Somebody has to edit and produce this thing. Sure, it's not $10 and it's likely not $40,000 either. But their fans know this too. They just want to give back to the guys, they feel, have given them so much entertainment.

Do you think if GB didn't have subscriptions that site fans wouldn't be all over something like this, just as a way to give back?