#1 Edited by Sweep (8927 posts) -

I've been pretty vocal in my dislike for Phil Fish. I liked FEZ, but I found it pretty difficult to appreciate a game made by someone who was so transparently dickish, and being painted as such an asshole by news outlets and consumers alike. This video is a pretty good breakdown of Phils entire career, how both he and his game gained attention and popularity, and how his management of this newfound attention was poor, but not so poor that he deserved the endless hatred and vitriol online. It's definitely worth a watch as, beyond Phil Fish, it's a pretty good analysis of internet behavior and psychology in general:

After watching this video I feel like kinda an asshole. I mean, I don't know if I forgive the guy for his monumental PR fuckups, his general arrogance, and the way he handled his "fame", but it also makes me feel pretty guilty for contributing to this continuously rolling snowball of hatred.

I kinda just feel sad that the dude isn't making games any more :(

Take a look!

#2 Posted by DexterKid (668 posts) -

Since I don't pay any attention to Twitter, all I know about Phil Fish comes from his game and his few appearances on GB, and I've always liked him and thought he seemed like a very smart and funny person; certainly not capable of being the monster that some people make him out to be. And as someone who knows what it's like to be singled out and picked on by a crowd of people, I always found people's reaction to this guy rather disgusting.

#3 Posted by Sweep (8927 posts) -

I'm also fully aware that most of the replies in this thread will be from people who don't even watch the video and just want to write their opinions about Phil Fish. Which is how we ended up with a comment 13 minutes after it was posted, despite the fact the video is 19 minutes long. And is kinda the whole point of the video in the first place.

#4 Edited by Elwoodan (846 posts) -

This whole thing is excellent, as some one who likes Phil Fish/his work and never understood the vitrolic, violent hate for Nickleback (sure they suck, but A LOT of music sucks) I had never considered that the hate stems from what they represent. I think, as the internet matures as a service/medium/platform (whatever you want to call it) some sort of etiquette will have to evolve to help protect people from that sudden, devastating internet 'fame' that has swallowed so many.

The internet is an unprecedentedly powerful tool for communication, and its not always a good thing.

#5 Posted by DexterKid (668 posts) -

No I didn't watch the video cause I'm watching something else right now, I do plan on watching it later. Also I don't think I've ever given my opinion on this topic anywhere before so I just took this opportunity to say that there are people who don't hate him, regardless of this video.

#6 Edited by burgavo (315 posts) -

Wow okay, I never really got all the hate, I don't really spend that much time on boards and don't use twitter, but did hear about all the hate through osmosis.

I thought Phil was an okay dude when he was on the couch at (I think) the last big live live show.

#7 Edited by TheManWithNoPlan (5823 posts) -

Since I don't pay any attention to Twitter, all I know about Phil Fish comes from his game and his few appearances on GB, and I've always liked him and thought he seemed like a very smart and funny person; certainly not capable of being the monster that some people make him out to be. And as someone who knows what it's like to be singled out and picked on by a crowd of people, I always found people's reaction to this guy rather disgusting.

My exact experience and thoughts on the subject.

Online
#9 Edited by Jazz_Bcaz (271 posts) -

Phil Fish has almost always responded completely justifiably to abuse. His problem is his head is in the clouds, he's sensitive (and vocal about it) and he has a complete lack of restraint. Sure he's a bit of an asshole but that's just another trait I respect. Who wants to be nice? On the internet?

The thing is, Phil Fish never imagined the situation was playing out as it's described in the video, because who in their right mind would? Not his fault he is who he is.

#10 Edited by rmanthorp (4020 posts) -

It's really tough to finalize my thoughts on Phil Fish. I like the guy. I feel sorry for the hate he got/gets. I don't agree with some of his points (Japanese games-gate). I think the confidence and arrogance he emits is difficult for me to understand as I simply don't function like that. I don't want to say that 'he brings it on himself' because that's just not fair - but he didn't do a great job of verbalizing how much it all affected him until he blew over last year. It was really nice to see that, despite him quitting the industry, he was still around at GDC and he was happy to publicly appear on the Giant Bomb liveshow multiple times and talk about it all with a smile on his face. I don't think that means the whole event washed over him but it's at least nice to see he can pick himself up and move on.

This video REALLY puts it all in perspective - Internet fame is something that I think we pretend to understand a lot more than we really do. We attribute standards of 'normal' celebrities and it's not fair. It's funny because another person in a similar potion is Notch, whose continued arrogance and fame-dick-swinging really annoys me (recently the post about him sharing media emails from Polygon just to let his followers mock them). However, no matter how much he irritates me I'd never wish ill will on him and I'm happy to admit that Minecraft is a fantastic game(phenomenon?).

Ultimately I'm upset that we won't get to see what Fez 2 was and we might not see anymore output from such an interestingly creative mind. It's unfortunately a double-edged sword at this point because if he comes back now people are going to call him out on 'not going through with it'... I want him to stick to his guns but I want to play more of his video games.

:/

Moderator Online
#11 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

@jazz_bcaz: People with a desire for mutual respect and decorum. See anything Patrick has written or presented on internet etiquette. And Patrick actually likes Phil.

#12 Edited by Demoskinos (15029 posts) -

I don't think he deserved the level of hate he got but let's be real he also stuck his dick in the hornets nest more than once. And while he may not have deserved what he got that is the cold harsh reality of being a public figure these days.

#13 Posted by TehPickle (511 posts) -

Well that was a great video. Really nicely done. Thanks for highlighting it.

Personally, I've always kinda liked Phil Fish in spite of his faults (read: being just like everybody else) and I think the internet at large should be ashamed of it's treatment towards him.

#14 Posted by Sweep (8927 posts) -

It's funny because another person in a similar potion is Notch, whose continued arrogance and fame-dick-swinging really annoys me (recently the post about him sharing media emails from Polygon just to let his followers mock them). However, no matter how much he irritates me I'd never wish ill will on him and I'm happy to admit that Minecraft is a fantastic game(phenomenon?).

I had exactly the same thought. As I was watching this video I thought "If it was Phil Fish replying to a journalist in that way it would be Phil Fish getting the hate." I'll admit those questions to Notch could have been phrased better, but the guy has got to have some awareness of the hell he's unleashing by releasing those emails that are supposed to be private. And I don't even like Polygon! But, like Phil Fish, they have become a brand that people are in the habit of hating, and it's hard to turn around and go "Y'know, maybe I'll give them a chance this time" after having previously tweeted about how useless they are.

Y'know what? Fuck Notch!

*learns nothing from his mistakes*

#15 Posted by DannyHibiki (205 posts) -

James Carville - a stranger!? Preposterous. He's on TV all the dang time.

This is a good video though.

#16 Posted by Little_Socrates (5684 posts) -

I look forward to watching this video when I have the chance.

FEZ may be the greatest game ever made.

#17 Posted by rmanthorp (4020 posts) -
Moderator Online
#18 Posted by kahjah (26 posts) -

I totally loved the video and it reinforced many of my thoughts about how the internet can make and break people. It was smart, well done and full of nuanced points which is what the internet needs. I really want to talk to the makers of it because it was brilliant.

#19 Edited by Bollard (5687 posts) -

@sweep said:

@rmanthorp said:

It's funny because another person in a similar potion is Notch, whose continued arrogance and fame-dick-swinging really annoys me (recently the post about him sharing media emails from Polygon just to let his followers mock them). However, no matter how much he irritates me I'd never wish ill will on him and I'm happy to admit that Minecraft is a fantastic game(phenomenon?).

I had exactly the same thought. As I was watching this video I thought "If it was Phil Fish replying to a journalist in that way it would be Phil Fish getting the hate." I'll admit those questions to Notch could have been phrased better, but the guy has got to have some awareness of the hell he's unleashing by releasing those emails that are supposed to be private. And I don't even like Polygon! But, like Phil Fish, they have become a brand that people are in the habit of hating, and it's hard to turn around and go "Y'know, maybe I'll give them a chance this time" after having previously tweeted about how useless they are.

Y'know what? Fuck Notch!

*learns nothing from his mistakes*

I think people also hate Notch because they're jealous. Jealous of the fact he's made of money and can effectively do whatever he wants for the rest of his life, because he made one game.

I can't ever be angry at people like that. Dude deserves it, he made a cool game and it did well. Good on him.

#20 Edited by Fear_the_Booboo (563 posts) -

It's a great perspective.

I'm of the mind that FEZ is a masterpiece, deserves the attention and should be regarded as such, but whatever your opinion on the game is I don't get why you'd hate the creator of it.

Anyway, I enjoyed the video and I'm happy it made you re-evaluate your perspective, but I don't know how many "haters" can change their perspective.

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#21 Edited by Jazz_Bcaz (271 posts) -

@hailinel: I have. I disagree with Patrick on some of those issues because it's in my nature to debate, fiercely, if I'm given the opportunity. It's not like I'll ever resort to racism or abuse, or respond to it. Everybody forms their own narrative and I can't take responsibility for anyone else's.

I enjoyed that video.

#22 Posted by Pr1mus (3953 posts) -

I always considered the people attacking Phil Fish to be the real assholes. I can understand not liking the guy. He has a personality and a way of laying his opinions out in the open that can be aggravating at times but i don't ever recall him being the one to attack others to begin with. Saying Japanese games suck is not an attack on anyone, it's an opinion and one that doesn't warrant personal attacks and for the vast majority of his "haters" this is where this all started.

People throw insults at a guy for his opinions and then get even more angry at him if he dares to talk back.

#23 Posted by wjb (1680 posts) -

If James Carville and Mary Matalin came up to me at a cocktail party asking me about Phil Fish, my first response would be "Buh?" followed by "Why am I here?"

Good video.

#24 Posted by cloudnineboya (832 posts) -

I do not follow Twitter or the like, but i do know of some of the stories about him and the internet. What i have seen of phil fish which is all video like when he has been on Giant Bomb he comes across as a cool person, funny and intelligent, normal even. It is really sad that such a talented developer is not making games because of the crap that was thrown his way, all blown out of proportion like always.

#25 Posted by Village_Guy (2645 posts) -

I didn't like FEZ, now Phil Fish on the other hand... I have little-to-no opinion about. He seems like an okay guy, who have trouble handling his temper on the Internet, I guess.

#26 Edited by Bollard (5687 posts) -
#27 Posted by Draugen (674 posts) -

Phil Fish has almost always responded completely justifiably to abuse. His problem is his head is in the clouds, he's sensitive (and vocal about it) and he has a complete lack of restraint. Sure he's a bit of an asshole but that's just another trait I respect. Who wants to be nice? On the internet?

The thing is, Phil Fish never imagined the situation was playing out as it's described in the video, because who in their right mind would? Not his fault he is who he is.

I do. I love being nice. It messes with people's expectations. :)

This is a really good video, and it puts forth the case very eloquently. Phil Fish didn't deserve what happened. Very few people do. But the reason I can't being myself to feel too bad for him, is that he is, or at least was, part of the toxic environment he decried. Again, he didn't deserve it, but he did contribute to it. It's not karmic. It's just sad.

#28 Posted by Sweep (8927 posts) -
#29 Posted by Bollard (5687 posts) -

@sweep said:

@bollard: Could you paraphrase?

It was nothing to do with this video, he was suggesting YouTubers should have to pay royalties to developers, and likened it to piracy.

#30 Posted by TheHT (11549 posts) -

He makes some good points. For the sake of argument he takes some liberties with everyone's response to Phil Fish, but the points stand above that.

It's a peculiar thought, that instantly you could go from part of the masses, to target of the masses. If you remained the same as you were before, you'd be hated. If you changed, you'd be hated all the same.

#31 Edited by Bollard (5687 posts) -

@sweep said:

@bollard: Could you paraphrase?

Updates:

i really want to be here but clearly it's not an option.

*this* is phil fish.

#32 Edited by Milkman (17067 posts) -

The hatred of Phil Fish has always been absurd. I have a massive amount of respect for a guy who is willing to speak his mind, despite what it will cause others to say about. I still remember the whole Kevin Dent controversy and how Phil was the ONLY person willing to speak out against him while the rest of the games industry kept their mouths shut on issues that they had one point claimed to care so much but now that it was one of their own being a dick, suddenly they had nothing to say.

Anytime he has lashed out at someone, it was in response to an onslaught of criticism being lobbed his way. Has he always handled this criticism with grace? Fuck no but I'm not sure if I would either if I got the kind of abuse he got. The fact that he has somehow become the bad guy is a lot of people's eyes is a pretty damning reflection on the toxicity of the internet.

#33 Posted by joshwent (2301 posts) -

Judging what someone says is always fine. Judging the person who said it, especially if you've never even met them, is always wrong.

#34 Posted by Monkeyman04 (1158 posts) -

I never really understood the hate for Phil and now after this video it really put everything into perspective.

#35 Posted by probablytuna (3744 posts) -

Still super bummed out FEZ II is no longer a thing.

#36 Posted by Ares42 (2738 posts) -

I don't really agree with the premise that internet fame is something that happens to you. Sure, there are cases of people stumbling into it, but most of the time people are actively making it happen. It might not be some singular "switch" like the contract example he's using, but that doesn't mean they aren't seeking it out.

Most people that get internet famous get their 15 minutes, just like people got through TV before internet. Several of the examples used in the video are people that many of us has seen once or twice but never heard or seen since. You don't remain internet famous unless you're trying. We all choose how much we put ourselves out there. We might not get the same opportunities to make ourselves heard, but when the microphone is shoved in your face it's your choice if you want to shout or whisper. And there are many many people that decided to whisper.

#37 Posted by DannyHibiki (205 posts) -

@wjb said:

If James Carville and Mary Matalin came up to me at a cocktail party asking me about Phil Fish, my first response would be "Buh?" followed by "Why am I here?"

Good video.

Welsh rarebit before bed again. Gets ya every time.

#38 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

@jazz_bcaz: Desiring debate doesn't mean being abrasive or an asshole is a requirement. It's why I quickly grew tired of any attempt at discussing Lightning Returns with you. You substituted force of personality for rationality and a willingness to hear the other side out. That's not debate. That's forcing your opinion on others.

#39 Edited by Socuteboss (59 posts) -

Here are the tweets, someone on another site took a screen shot.

#40 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

Phil Fish is a saint.

#41 Edited by Random45 (1240 posts) -

Huh, I didn't think a video could change my opinion, but it did. I do still think Phil Fish should have hired a PR guy or something to manage his twitter, since he was obviously ill equip to deal with it. He never really came off as professional when he told people off, even if he wasn't the one who started it.

Edit: I also want to throw out that I completely disagree with what he was saying regarding games being on Youtube.

Edit2: I don't know man, he makes it REALLY hard to like him whenever he does and says anything. Just looking at this thread and seeing the shit he's done has kind of soured me on him again.

#42 Edited by Nightriff (5161 posts) -

Look I like Phil Fish but at this point I'm really just sick of this shit. How many times has he quit life (twitter) and returned months/year later only to quit some time later (new record today, only a few hours). I respect the guy and agree with a lot of what he says. Based on his last tweets that Dick_Bonerflex posted, I absolutely agree with that, but he says things then rage quits so no one can contact him. It is cowardly to state an opinion then run away when people are going to attack you (whether the attacks have a base or not). Notch hasn't quit twitter yet and I bet he is currently getting more heat than Phil.

Phil, I love ya, I want Fez II to be made but come on. You don't want to accept the consequences of stating your opinion time after time.

#43 Posted by Brodehouse (10104 posts) -

It just seems like Phil Fish wants attention but doesn't but does but doesn't. Not all attention is good attention, I learned it through a relatively difficult childhood.

That said, a lot of the louder parts of the Phil Fish effigy are more tied into outrage culture than anything else. The racism claim was wild, though the video makes a good point about tokenism in common language. I think it might reveal maybe one of the causes of Phil Fish's social strife, in that perhaps he doesn't have the language or ability to express himself in what is considered an adult or appropriate manner for his position as a public figure, as a valued perspective. Just about all the public outrages centered around him seem to feature him reacting in a manner more appropriate for a forum of teen-aged art enthusiasts, and people just expect a little more from public figures. I have no doubt that Geoff Keighley receives a torrent of horseshit every single day about everything, and if he was telling people to choke on it, he would receive the same negative public scrutiny. That he doesn't rise to it and keeps entirely on point gives him something of an air of professionalism. I guess it just appears like special pleading to me. Perhaps I'm wrong.

On this very forum, we have a higher standard of decorum than I think Phil Fish could handle. Phil Fish would have been banned here for emotionally retaliating against someone being a dick.

#44 Posted by Jazz_Bcaz (271 posts) -

@hailinel: I know it doesn't sound like I'm taking stuff in but I do. Sorry, you just have to trust me. I genuinely was interested in what you were saying about the game. Another time maybe.

#46 Posted by MX (242 posts) -

I've always liked Phill Fish because he spoke his mind. Because he is arrogant and rude. Because of his confidence to say whatever he wanted to say. And while I didn't always agreed with what he said and he could've used better words for some of his statements. I still think he's pretty cool

#47 Posted by mbdoeden (189 posts) -

As someone who self-identifies as a creative person, I never understood the hate for Phil Fish. To me he came off as the same type of arrogant and eccentric asshole that I ran around with in my city's indie music scene, a few of those arrogant assholes were/are my best friends. They're good people, a little crazy, but good people. I saw (and see!) a passion in Phil that is enviable, and he worked hard as hell to achieve his goal which is nothing but admirable in my book.

And as the video put so eloquently, I don't fucking know him at all so I have no purpose or place to speak ill of him in public.

People love sausage, but many don't want to see how it's made, or more importantly who is making it.

#48 Posted by KoolAid (986 posts) -

The part at the halfway point where he talks about the actual person lining up with the concept as the moment when an article is born sums up my frustrations with "games journalism" almost exactly. It's always maddening see articles cherry picking facts and completely ignoring positives. I feel like that is what we are seeing right now with ubisoft and sexism, I feel like its happens to Penny Arcade ALOT and it feels like what happened to Phil Fish.

Mind you, it doesn't mean that those things didn't happen. But it's extremely selective reporting that paints only one side of a picture and people buy into that incomplete picture. I completely understand why PR people are the way they are. Because you spend three days at E3 talking about your game a hundred times, you mess up your wording once, and it's front page news on Kotaku.

#49 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7099 posts) -

Yeah, nice job being kind of a dick yourself. The guy is a genius and very outspoken, but far from the monster people made him out to be. Yet, here came the internet (and a lot of freaking 12 year olds who had a lot of hate) and they just freaking tried to crush him.

Good job everybody, you included. Doesn´t really matter what you say now- you being very 'vocal' about business that shouldn't concern you has cost us all FEZ 2. I hope you're happy.

Who exactly are you talking to?

I was never one of the people that despised Fish like a lot of people seemed to. I thought Fez was incredible and didn't really care about the dumb shit he occasionally said in response to the dumb, cruel shit that random internet assholes (and Marcus Beer) said to him.

#50 Posted by Devil240Z (3397 posts) -

Ive never had a problem with phil fish. I actually don't know what people are talking about when they say things about him...