This video made me feel kinda sorry for Phil Fish

Exactly.

I expected better from the GB community.

I feel like this is just Sweep's dragnet to catch unruly users.

It's a good thing then that he also used Nickelback and not just Phil Fish!

Goddamnit man how can one possibly be so fucking clueless as you is mindboggling. Everything you said in all your posts, every single thing you managed to complain about are very clearly addressed in the video and on multiple occasions are said almost word for word as you said them yourself. All you have managed to do is to somehow repeatedly disagree with yourself and in the process become exactly what is depicted in the video. You're probably just one of those, as accurately described in the video, who are so invested in hating Phil Fish that you can't see anything past him in this. You can't have basic comprehension of using examples to make a point targeted a particular sub-culture if this example is Phil Fish. Like starvinggamer said, you don't make points without examples and there is no better example than Phil Fish to make this point to the targeted audience.

As you should.

I hate Nickelback's music. Their music is boring, mediocre, and overall just bad. I don't care that they are popular, they are just bad. I don't care about the concept, I've listened to their music and its terrible.

Phil Fish? Just a guy who got popular and acted like himself. No issues here. He is a developer and should be judged on that. His game, Fez, its pretty damn good.

I don't hate Phil Fish but I also disagree with a lot of what is being said in the video.

There's just WAY too many assumptions being presented as fact.

Good video. It made really good points and put to words much more clearly a problem I have with fans on the internet. I mean Phil Fish seems pretty separate from the issue of fans seeing something as complex as a human being as simply as a good or bad object with no room for consideration in between the two extremes. Phil seems like a nice enough guy in his personal life and is very talented. But he is bad at creating a public persona. I like what he's made and theoretically like who he is but I dislike how he carried himself as a public figure. I dislike nearly all enthusiasts for all hobbies so there's that.

Also for the people in the thread who feel they need to agree or disagree with the video you're kind of proving the dude's point. It's only on the internet or in school yards where the concept of 'winning arguments' and black and white thinking makes any sense.

In what sense? I've been monitoring the thread pretty closely and the discussion seems both productive and reflective.

In fact, ironically, one of the most off-topic comments in here is your own. In future please avoid entering a thread just to belittle the other users taking part. It's neither productive nor welcome.

I'm confused by your statement. It sounds like you're saying the act of agreeing or disagreeing is a "school yard" or "internet" thing?

@sweep: I was referring to the negative comments on this thread against Fish. I was going to write up a long post in an effort at explaining myself and how it is irrational, unjust and mean to have such emotional opinions about a person no one dissing him ever met but then promptly decided it would end up not being seen by anyone and be completely futile. Do you see the absurdity in that? No one knows this guy and a majority of the people are vocally abusing him. It's cruel and no one deserves it. We've all been an asshole at some point in our lives and he gets shit because he is in the spotlight, regardless of the behavioural ethics surrounding being famous.

I stopped reading the comments section of web sites on the internet a while ago and I generally regard the GB forums as sort of an enclave, meaning, I believe the personality based structure of the sites are the main guys fosters somewhat of a friendly and rational community. Seeing people dismiss him like that ruins that illusion for me. People being people, I guess.

Then he went and called Youtubers pirates and thieves.

@mikey87144: He is entitled to his opinion.

Well... that's kind of the point of the video, and the thread though, right? So either you didn't watch the video and just came in here to bash people who hate on Phil, or you did and you kinda missed the point.

Did you watch the video? You should watch the video :)

@sccdemir: Perhaps he shouldn't say such mean things about people he hasn't met? He shouldn't have such an emotional opinion about a person he doesn't actually know?

If Phil Fish is allowed an opinion on Youtubers, people are allowed an opinion on Phil Fish. It's a shame that most of the opinions Fish has about Youtubers are negative and that most people have a negative opinion of Fish, but these things didn't come out of nowhere.

@sweep: Look, could you please stop being passive aggressive with me? There is no need for any of that. I did watch the nineteen minute video. It's the people insulting him in this thread that didn't get the point.

@sccdemir: Everyone is entitled to their opinion of others based on how those people carry themselves. Phil Fish likes to voice his opinion (nothing wrong with that) but does so in rude and vulgar ways at times, rather than constructive (but sure he's constructive at times too). Regardless of whether this is online or face to face, it is still him carrying himself in the manner (regardless of who he's doing it to). No one is saying he doesn't have the right to do so, but we reserve the right to our opinions of someone's behavior. You can disagree, but that makes neither of us right/wrong either. If I saw someone on the street verbally abusing another person, am I not entitled to my opinion of that person from what I'm observing even though I don't know that individual personally?

So please continue telling us why we're horrible people for having an opinion on a person that carry's themselves as a rude and vulgar person to others over a medium heavily used by the sub-culture of his audience. If GB started contacting him and telling him to fuck off, then yes I would be disappointed as well, but in this thread are just opinions based off of observations, and there is nothing wrong with that.

@jesus_phish: @hurricaneivan29: Whenever Phil dares to express his opinions in public, however bluntly or crass, the backlash always turns into personal attack. He may be intentional in his wording or not, either way no big deal but I see no one discussing Youtube's policies on stuff like this with him in a normal way. Everyone seems to be stuck in the way he acts all the time.

@professoress:

You'd hope that people could engage in a conversation with another from a differing viewpoint and come out of it having gained knowledge and perspective rather than a feeling of having won an argument. That's a rare thing on the internet. And school yards.

Dont hate Nickelback, hate the people who bought there records.

Dont hate hitler hate the people who voted for him.

You get the point same logic can be used with Phil Fish.

I agree but putting these people in the same camp as people who are straight up unwilling to pay for your games is a bit harsh in my opinion. This whole Let's Play thing is going to get uglier before it's resolved. All I know is I'm not going to trust a review or Let's Play when the dude posting the video probably had to negotiate the terms with the publisher.

Turns out that making a video game isn't some rite of passage to "professionalism" and he remained to be himself afterwards. What an asshole.

One of my favorite tweets from Phil: "I don't believe in the high road."

@sccdemir: Your right, people will say terrible things about him all the time, because they don't like him and they're nasty. But if you could point out how we're all doing that in this thread and it's not just one or two people strongly expressing their dislike of him, then you can say the GB community has let you down. But most of us are being well behaved, level headed people and not screaming "OMG FUCK YOU SUCK COCK PHIL FISH YOU COCK"

@jesus_phish: That's fair.

Have you tried developing a thicker skin to relatively small things?

I'd say it's a rare thing in real life, anywhere. People always call the internet a generic boogieman, which I find really grating. People are assholes in real life too, and just as crass, rude, and mean spirited to your face as they are online, you just don't get to interact with them in your daily routines. One year working in customer service should reveal this to people. The only difference is, there is a chance for a greater concentration of assholes that can be looking at the same thing at the same time.

@hurricaneivan29 said:

The problem, in this situation, is that you're like the teacher getting to the fight just in time to see the kid surrounded by bullies finally start to fight back and take a swing at one of them. People like Phil always have someone hurling insults at them... but god forbid they ever have a bad day, lose their temper, and respond in kind to the harassment constantly bombarding them. Suddenly, the person who has had enough is perceived as the bad guy because we're so inured to trolls on the internet that they're just seen as the price of fame.

@chrisharris: The thing is though that Phil has been rude and vulgar before all of the publicity. Like everyone has been saying "he hasn't change, good for him." Yeah, he hasn't changed, he's always been an ass. Some people commend that, I say good for you for not changing but boo to you for being that vulgar person in the first place.

Now, as for the cause/effect deal, please read my other posts. My problem with that situation isn't his retaliation, it's his bitching and moaning about the backlash to the retaliation. He is fully entitled to retaliate, and I have mostly no problem with people retaliating, but with retaliation comes the responsibility of dealing with the backlash. He didn't and just bitched and moaned about people backlashing. If Phil Fish "doesn't believe in the high road" then he should be full aware of the consequences that come with that, no matter if they're fair or not. But don't say you're too good for the high road and then complain because you're not cut out for that decision.

I've got nothing against him personally, every time I've seen him on streams and what not he's always seemed like a cool dude. He really needs to stop acting like such a child on the internet though. I didn't even know who he was until he said PCs were for spreadsheets not gaming. Literally the first thing I thought about him was "Wow what an asshole". Then again when I saw this. If I came in to work this morning and put up something similar by my desk I'd be getting yelled at too.

It's a vicious circle at this point. He has a strong personality and states his opinions very bluntly and that always attracts people who are just as blunt (or even more so) in disagreeing with him. He apparently isn't the person who is able to deal with that kind of negativity so yes; it is probably for the best that he isn't on Twitter anymore.

I like Fez, I really do, which is why I supported it but I'm generally not a fan of his behavior (good example for it). I would never insult him because I think that's childish, never appropriate and can only hurt the conversation but unfortunately you can't avoid that on the Internet.

That being said I disagree with him about the let's play thing as well. If people put up the whole game without commentary or any own input then I'm with him but it's another thing with let's plays alltogether. Granted I only watch Two Best Friends Play but the reason I'm watching their content is because they are entertaining. I care very little what game they're actually playing what matters is how they play it and what they're saying while they're playing it. To compare that with piracy (it wasn't entirely clear if he was talking about let's plays as well) is not re ally appropriate. Maybe there is a point to be made that a small percentage could go to the devs but saying that they're stealing content is kind of ridiculous.

Every time Phil Fish is about to fade into obscurity he comes riding back in his obnoxiously decorated chariot with a megaphone attached to it that he uses to elicit negative response:

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2014/06/18/phil-fish-says-youtubers-are-committing-piracy-owe-him-money.aspx

You reap what you sow. I'd rather take him as the person he presents himself as than take someone else's word.

That video was awesome.

I watched the video, I still do not like phill fish, nothing to do with the "concept" of phill fish. Quite literally, he says dickish things and I do not like him because of it. Phill Fish can only blame himself for what people think of him. Had he shown the humility of somebody like Jonathan blow or the supergiant games guys, he would be doing quite well right now and I would like him. I respect his creativity, but not his attitude. Also Anita Sarkeesian is another person I dislike, for similar reasons to Phill Fish. She places her horribly formulated preconcieved opinions onto a pedestal, and ignores all other opinions.

I never understood the sheer, raw hatred for Phil Fish. He said some dickish things on social media from time to time (usually in response to people being even worse to him first), but he was and is an amazingly talented designer and, from what I saw on this site, a legitimately okay dude: smart, well-spoken, doesn't take himself too seriously, and enjoys a drink. He may very well be pretentious, arrogant, and self-absorbed at instances, but, well, so is everyone else, especially if they are creative and/or successful.

This video only highlights how damn sad that whole debacle was. I really want to play more stuff by him (that fucking FEZ 2 teaser with the vector graphics, holy shit!).

Really intelligent commentary. I've always found it amazing that commenters on the web will have such strong opinions about people they don't know, as if piecing together information gathered from twitter, youtube and facebook somehow amounts to personally knowing someone. I think "group think" is a concept applicable to a lot of internet behaviour and opinions as well. When an opinion about someone gathers enough momentum, others tend to accept that opinion as fact. This opinion toward famous people tends to be negative also, probably because it somehow makes the "non-famous" people feel better about themselves. It's a kind of catharsis in my opinion, similar to why we enjoy hating certain characters in fiction. Phil Fish the "concept", as the video put it, might as well be a fictitious character since none of us actually know the real person.

Anyways, thanks for posting :D, very interesting video.

@texus: http://i.imgur.com/DNVRtIW.jpg

He's such a pleasant person... just because we don't have drinks with people doesn't mean we're not allowed to form our opinions of them based on how they present themselves in the public eye.

It's a matter whether or not you value how people treat others that they don't know. If you value that then you probably dislike people who spew the things he does at others' opinions or at fans who ask him a simple question. If you don't value that and don't dislike him, don't tell others they're wrong for having their own opinions of how someone treats people they don't know.

@hurricaneivan29: Every picture I've ever seen of Phil saying something shitty has always been in direct retaliation to some shit thrown at him. They are never, ever shown along side the bullshit he has to put up with. Yeah, telling someone to kill themselves isn't cool, but at least in context it comes off as retaliation instead of Phil just being a dick for no reason. Why should Marcus Beer get to continue with his life in peace after that whole incident but Phil is just shat on even more?

I wonder, if every time someone had posted a picture of Phil's supposed dickishness they'd made sure to post it along side the thing that made him say it in the first place, there would be half as much hate for this guy.

It's not a matter of valuing how people treat others that they don't know. Phil says negative things to people who provoke him. That tweet is in response to a stranger, Annoyed Gamer, calling him a "tosspot", a "wanker", a "fucking asshole", and instructed him to respond to press whenever they call regardless of whether or not he wants to. Why is Phil the bad guy for responding in kind? This stranger did not value how he treats other strangers, why should Phil?

This all goes in line with the expectation that people who are granted the limelight by the public and the press - the very point of what Annoyed Gamer was saying when he initially insulted Phil, which is utterly ridiculous by the way - should not be allowed to become disgusted, frustrated, and angry with people who purposefully insult them for illegitimate reasons in the public sphere. That they should, instead, ignore them, or be the bigger man, or whatever.

I for one, don't think that's fair. Celebrity figures should be allowed to be people. Phil is not representative of anything other than himself, and as such, he doesn't have to protect anything but himself with his public persona. If he wants to mouth off to the people who are treating him like shit in the public sphere - people who have never met him - he has every right to. The reason it's expected of him to NOT do that is because, typically, people in the public eye are part of a larger program, company, or project, and can't speak their mind for fear of affecting their colleagues. This is not the case for him, which is partly why it's so surprising to many of us that he is doing that. That he is being a normal person and defending himself like an utterly normal person would. The difference here, though, is that nobody reads the tweets or comments of unfamous people. They only read the replies by the famous people, just as the person you quoted only showed Phil's tweet, totally removed from context.

I suppose you could consider Gabe Newell to be on the other end of the spectrum in internet "fame". Whereas Phil Fish became a symbol for all the negativity that surrounded him (and to some extent the indie darlings), Gabe Newell became a positive symbol in the PC gaming scene. It's no longer about him as a person, but more so to do with what people say about him and steam.

@hurricaneivan29:

To be fair this was after the AnnoyedGamer insulted Phil publicly and called him a wanker and pisspot and that he is basically worthless.

My answer would have been dangerously close to what Phil said.

It's an ok video, even if I don't agree with all its assertions. I find it odd that the examples of his character given in it make it even more clear to me that he is indeed an asshole, which the video tried to say that he wasn't (at least that's what I got from it). I also don't buy the hating Phil Fish as a "concept" thing. I don't like him as a human being. Like any human, I judge him on his actions, which to me repeatedly demonstrate why I don't like the guy.

I will say, that I have liked him on almost every appearance I've seen him make on GB. But that's most likely because he's around friends and acts in a more favorable manor when he is.

Still don't have any beef with the guy, people were dicks, he responded in kind (not the best idea when you're in the spotlight). This video hit the nail on the head.

Don't feel bad. He's a dumbass, and a jackass. It's one thing to have words with jerky people. It's another thing to show no respect to anyone other than yourself. Even at PAX, the guy was totally full of himself and gave 0 shits about the idea of PAX. Pretty sure that I've heard more than one person say he pushed fans aside to get at media attention. At PAX. Not E3, not any of the big publicity opportunities out there.

While there are probably people who are just jealous of his stuff, I think most people just don't like assholes. And he's an asshole. So people don't like him.

He's not a racist though, that's fuckin' dumb. I actually agreed about his comment on eastern development, which is full of plenty of racism, sexism, and relies almost entirely on tropes. And he has every right to be a dick back to people who are dicks. It's the rest of the stupid shit he did and his completely ridiculous sense of self worth.

So don't feel sad for him. He's super successful, talented, and made some awesome stuff, and then tossed it all away. He's doing just fine.

Video is interesting, but it only focuses on a part of the internet that pretty much could be described by any video that removes Phil and adds any number of things.

Very interesting, intelligent, and insightful video! Im rather impressed. Hes very concise, and articulate in getting his points across.

I feel like this is pretty much exactly how I feel about the subject.

I think Phil doesn't deserve the hate he received. The internet can be ugly.

He seems like a really decent person, just has a bit of a big mouth is all.

I've had an internal debate about things the video brought up for a long time. The vicious cycle of internet popularity, responsibility and consequence vs. honesty and personality in discourse, how outside perception augments everything we do...

The only answer I've found that works for me is to shut the hell up. I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing.

I feel bad for him, inasmuch as he is a victim of the self-propagating internet hate machine and this video does a decent job of explaining why that exists in the first place. He's always come off as a pretty cool guy whenever he's been on the GDC livestreams here.

That all being said, his entire internet persona was (is?) about sticking his hands into the fire and then being surprised when he gets burned.