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#1 Edited by egg (1450 posts) -

It only occurred to me the other day. I mean we all know PS2 introduced pressure sensitive buttons, PS3 controller introduced Sixaxis, PS4 controller is introducing glorified select button touchpad. Sony has this hit and miss tradition with gimmicks to their controller, but they keep the controller so similar every gen that we don't give it much thought.

But I was thinking about how PS4 doesn't support PS3 controllers, and why it doesn't. While lamenting the fact that some people actually naively expect the touchpad to enhance their gaming. And then somehow it clicked in my head. It's a conspiracy. Sony is adding a cheap gimmick to the controller of every new Playstation for the sake of it. But maybe this gen there was an ulterior motive. The touchpad was introduced for the express purpose of justifying the lack of PS3 controller support.

#2 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7039 posts) -

Probably not.

#3 Posted by Aegon (5377 posts) -

@egg said:

It only occurred to me the other day. I mean we all know PS2 introduced pressure sensitive buttons, PS3 controller introduced Sixaxis, PS4 controller is introducing glorified select button touchpad. Sony has this hit and miss tradition with gimmicks to their controller, but they keep the controller so similar every gen that we don't give it much thought.

But I was thinking about how PS4 doesn't support PS3 controllers, and why it doesn't. While lamenting the fact that some people actually naively expect the touchpad to enhance their gaming. And then somehow it clicked in my head. It's a conspiracy. Sony is adding a cheap gimmick to the controller of every new Playstation for the sake of it. But maybe this gen there was an ulterior motive. The touchpad was introduced for the express purpose of justifying the lack of PS3 controller support.

People would complain if they used the old controller. And they need money. No way the controller wasn't going to be new.

#4 Edited by SlashDance (1801 posts) -

I don't think the pressure sensitive buttons on the Dual Shock 2 were a cheap gimmick (racing games were better, for instance), but the sixaxis definitely was.

I'd put the touchpad somewhere in the middle. It's not something we desperately need, but surely someone will find a way to use it for something that's not just gimmick.

#5 Posted by Cameron (595 posts) -

Other than the PS2 has any console ever supported the previous generation of controllers? I know the Wii technically has Gamecube controller support, but it's not like you can use them for the vast majority of Wii games. They make new controllers because they make a killing selling controllers for $50-$60 each. It also gives them an opportunity to put new features in. Motion control may have been useless in the Sixaxis, but it was nice to have a wireless controller. I also think the touchpad is there to gives games better compatibility with Vita and mobile games that use swipe gestures.

#6 Edited by EXTomar (4453 posts) -

Controller along with the peripheral business is lucrative. They can take less than $8 of raw material and sell it for $50+. Why would they give that up? It is no more or less a gimmick than the new controller that comes with XBox One.

#7 Posted by SomeDeliCook (2203 posts) -

I don't think the pressure sensitive buttons on the Dual Shock 2 were a cheap gimmick (racing games were better, for instance), but the sixaxis definitely was.

I'd put the touchpad somewhere in the middle. It's not something we desperately need, but surely someone will find a way to use it for something that's not just gimmick.

I think swiping your hand across it quickly to wipe off the dirt on your gas mask in Metro Last Light would be cool, better than just pressing a button.

#8 Posted by Ubersmake (754 posts) -

Don't forget that the PS4 controller also has that not-Move thing on the top. But sure, it's still a cash grab. And every launch game will have to use every feature on the controller, for better and worse. But a conspiracy? Only if you also consider every other unnecessary proprietary hardware upgrade "feature" a conspiracy as well.

#9 Posted by crusader8463 (14411 posts) -

I'm waiting for the inevitable point when EA teams up with Microsoft to make the ultimate microtransaction. A controller that runs on coins and requires you to pay per use. I'm sure they would market it as bringing the old school arcade experience into the home or some such thing too.

#10 Posted by Red12b (9073 posts) -

I'm waiting for the inevitable point when EA teams up with Microsoft to make the ultimate microtransaction. A controller that runs on coins and requires you to pay per use. I'm sure they would market it as bringing the old school arcade experience into the home or some such thing too.

you haven't really thought about the logistics of such a controller have you?

#11 Posted by Oscar__Explosion (2181 posts) -

@red12b said:

@crusader8463 said:

I'm waiting for the inevitable point when EA teams up with Microsoft to make the ultimate microtransaction. A controller that runs on coins and requires you to pay per use. I'm sure they would market it as bringing the old school arcade experience into the home or some such thing too.

you haven't really thought about the logistics of such a controller have you?

DIGITAL COINS #FOLLOWTHEMONEY

#12 Posted by RJPelonia (854 posts) -

Innovation means taking risks. Just look at Nintendo's controllers if you need proof of that.

#13 Posted by crow13 (132 posts) -

@red12b: Seems like it needs a credit card slide, not a coin slot, but correct way of thinking lol.

#14 Posted by Dot (163 posts) -

I think it would be really cool to see what some of the indie devs will be able to do with it. Don't really see how it would be used in many of the bigger titles though.

#15 Posted by MikkaQ (10264 posts) -

Sony's doing us a favor, those DS3s and SIXAXIS controllers need to be purged from history.

#16 Posted by devilzrule27 (1239 posts) -

Yup sony should have just stuck with their original PS1 controller without the analog sticks. How dare they try to do new things with their controller.

#17 Posted by crusader8463 (14411 posts) -

@red12b said:

@crusader8463 said:

I'm waiting for the inevitable point when EA teams up with Microsoft to make the ultimate microtransaction. A controller that runs on coins and requires you to pay per use. I'm sure they would market it as bringing the old school arcade experience into the home or some such thing too.

you haven't really thought about the logistics of such a controller have you?

DIGITAL COINS #FOLLOWTHEMONEY

I was going to shop it so it was big enough for a credit card or include one of those tap and go credit card things, but that was more effort than I wanted to put into a throw away joke no one would find funny.

#18 Edited by Devil240Z (3251 posts) -

PS1 controllers worked in PS2s.

#19 Posted by RedCream (704 posts) -

The Dualshock 4's existence has been justified by Mark Cerny right? All those controller latency, rumble functions and THE HEADPHONE JACK, MAN! That makes all the difference.

#20 Edited by xyzygy (9870 posts) -

While I do love the new design of the PS4 controller, the touchpad is just dumb. I really couldn't care less about such gimmicky things in my games. I guarantee you the touchpad will be used for things that QTEs or basic button presses usually took care of.

"SWIPE QUICKLY TO GRAB THE LEDGE"

#21 Posted by ChaosDent (234 posts) -

I don't think I'd call it a conspiracy. They aren't doing direct PS3 backwards compatibility and the functional changes are significant enough to break games that rely on those features. You only get one chance to really define the feature set for a console controller, so I'm willing to believe they really wanted the things they added rather than adding them to excuse lack of compatibility.

#22 Posted by theveej (811 posts) -

Well yah, every company usually does this. From razors to iPads, most companies at some point changed their peripherals to add some new features and force consumers to buy it by making the old peripherals non compatible with the newer version of the product.

To be fair, they should probably come up with a new controller for PS4, DS3 was not very good in my opinion and they say they made actual real changes like improving on latency this time. I think besides a few consoles, most do not allow the older controllers to work with the new one (DS1 controller on PS2 and GameCube controller on the Wii are the only ones I remember really).

Not a big deal.

#23 Posted by JJWeatherman (14557 posts) -

Or perhaps they're just trying their best to innovate and the results were slightly underwhelming a couple of times. Am I naive?

#24 Posted by Hunter5024 (5511 posts) -

Idk dude, I think the DS4 looks so much better than the DS3 that I would gladly sacrifice controller backwards compatibility for it. Maybe there is an ulterior motive behind changing the controller, but I'm not complaining.

#25 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@xyzygy said:

While I do love the new design of the PS4 controller, the touchpad is just dumb. I really could care less about such gimmicky things in my games. I guarantee you the touchpad will be used for things that QTEs or basic button presses usually took care of.

"SWIPE QUICKLY TO GRAB THE LEDGE"

It can be used as a mouse pointer for menus and stuff. Which would be way better than having a whole screen you have to look down too. Otherwise I really do not care about the touchpad at the moment. But we will see what you can do with it. For the witness for example it could be quite good.

#26 Posted by DarthOrange (3827 posts) -

@xyzygy said:

I really could care less about such gimmicky things in my games.

How much less could you care?

#27 Edited by SexualBubblegumX (542 posts) -

Companies have been doing this for a long time. I sure was piffed when I got my snes as a kid but couldn't use my nes controller, tell you what. *rolls eyes*

#28 Posted by joshwent (2056 posts) -

@egg: Sixaxis motion seems like a gimmick in hindsight because developers didn't really latch onto it. But it wasn't included in the controller to try and dupe people into getting it, it was directly competing with the Wii-mote. Remember, Sony is a Japanese company and dominant in Japan, so market share with Nintendo is much more important to them than it is to Microsoft. The sixaxis was them saying, "Hey, the PS3 is way more powerful than your thing, AND you can waggle our controller too."

The touch pad is just this generation's version of that battle continuing. You can use motions on the Wii U controller, and now you can do a similar thing on the PS4. It might be misguided, but it's just healthy competition, not conspiracy.

#29 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3535 posts) -

@egg said:

Sony is adding a cheap gimmick to the controller of every new Playstation for the sake of it. But maybe this gen there was an ulterior motive. The touchpad was introduced for the express purpose of justifying the lack of PS3 controller support.

If I could either navigate a somewhat complex menu with a touchpad or do the same thing with an analog stick, I'd rather use a touchpad. Analog control of a cursor never feels very good.

But I can do better than that. Ever play Skyrim? Imagine the touch pad acting as another button, and when pressed it brings up the in-game map. Now imagine that you can scroll around that map just by moving your finger. In an instant, you can scroll from Solitude to Riften. Start by touching the upper-right corner of the touchpad, and when you open the map you'll be looking at the area around Winterhold. Start by touching the left-center of the touchpad and you'll immediately jump to the area around Markarth.

If this can be done, then it follows that the pad could be used for additional commands that otherwise might not fit on the controller. Imagine the touchpad divided into four, six, or eight "buttons" for somewhat common, but less frequent commands.

So yeah, I'm sure people are going to use it for plenty of stupid "wipe the dust off this coffin, so you can see what's written underneath" gimmicky crap like that, but I hope you also see how smart developers could--and likely will--end up doing a lot more with it.

#30 Edited by Zaccheus (1784 posts) -

Calling this a conspiracy is an insult to chemtrails.

#31 Posted by BisonHero (6054 posts) -

@zaccheus: You should look at the comments for this week's Bombcast. There's a guy near the end going on about how nefarious it is to put fluoride in tap water. Pretty entertaining.

#32 Edited by StarvingGamer (7919 posts) -

If a touchpad that could excel at several functions that controllers are notoriously bad at is a nefarious cash grab, what the fuck is rumble in the shoulders?

#33 Edited by Itwastuesday (924 posts) -

lizard men

EDIT: in the white house

#34 Posted by egg (1450 posts) -

I don't think the pressure sensitive buttons on the Dual Shock 2 were a cheap gimmick (racing games were better, for instance), but the sixaxis definitely was.

I don't think Sixaxis was a cheap gimmick. Racing games were better for instance.

#35 Edited by egg (1450 posts) -

Or perhaps they're just trying their best to innovate and the results were slightly underwhelming a couple of times. Am I naive?

When I think about it, they're basically forced to innovate. Because think about their position if they didn't. People would make fun of Sony for using the exact same controller. (Even though their controller is already the best.) And, in turn, people would start wondering why Sony doesn't have controller slots for the previous Playstation controller seeing as it's the same.

Sony dodged both those bullets. By introducing that obligatory cheap gimmick, Sony can say they are moving forward, while at the same nobody will demand that the existing controllers be compatible.

#36 Posted by SlashDance (1801 posts) -

@egg said:

@slashdance said:

I don't think the pressure sensitive buttons on the Dual Shock 2 were a cheap gimmick (racing games were better, for instance), but the sixaxis definitely was.

I don't think Sixaxis was a cheap gimmick. Racing games were better for instance.

Name one.

#37 Edited by egg (1450 posts) -

@aegon

Exactly, it's about money. This new controller is no different than disc-locked content. We can choose to respect the company's need for money (perhaps even more so for Sony since consoles unlike games are sold at a loss, and are an extremely risky business venture) but the fact remains we are being gouged while gaming is being held back.

@extomar

So what about Xbox One? he Xbox One is just as bad. (if not worse, since it doesn't even have a touchpad) The PS4 should allow PS3 controllers. The Xbox One should allow Xbox 360 controllers.

@devilzrule27

Making PS3 controller compatible doesn't mean Sony can't do new things. Look at Playstation Move, and the original PS1 Dual Shock controller. Look at Kinect, and Wii Motion Plus.

@sexualbubblegumx

For SNES to use NES controllers it would have needed NES controller ports which would increase production cost and compromise the design of the system. Consoles don't have dedicated controller ports anymore, nowadays controllers are wireless, bluetooth, and/or USB. And PS3 lets you use any bluetooth headset, you're also able to use keyboards and mice not produced by Sony.

#38 Posted by Legion_ (1253 posts) -

Stoopid thread is stoopid.

#39 Posted by egg (1450 posts) -

If I could either navigate a somewhat complex menu with a touchpad or do the same thing with an analog stick, I'd rather use a touchpad. Analog control of a cursor never feels very good.

So yeah, I'm sure people are going to use it for plenty of stupid "wipe the dust off this coffin, so you can see what's written underneath" gimmicky crap like that, but I hope you also see how smart developers could--and likely will--end up doing a lot more with it.

1) Notebooks and netbooks have touchpads. They are not great for navigating complex menus. So much so that people still buy a mouse.

2) Devs using the touchpad well doesn't necessarily justify the exclusion of PS3 controller support. Those things are not mutually exclusive. We could have had both.

#40 Posted by SamStrife (1282 posts) -

Wow...so because you assume the touchpad is going to be nothing more than a gimmick, you're complaining you can't use a controller without one?

Whether the touchpad is a gimmick or not (no one can say at this point), the fact is, the hardware is different and therefore won't be compatible. You're not complaining aobut not being able to use 360 pads on the Xbox One and that changes less...

Also pressure sensitive buttons were awesome.

Also 2/10 for the trolling.

#41 Posted by RazielCuts (2911 posts) -

Flower, also WipEout HD apparently controlled well in a 'zen' kind of way with SixAxis.

And they needed a new controller to fix the damn squidgy L2 and R2 buttons.

#42 Edited by Vertrucio (145 posts) -

Egg, do you actually know anything about how controllers are made and how they interface with consoles? No? Then learn. You are not some bright flower of a mind that has discovered some grand conspiracy, but rather just an ignorant person who has found some anomaly and thinks it's a sign of the apocalypse. It's like idiots that don't bother to learn ballistics and rocket science before calling the moon landings a hoax.

The reality is much simpler, but technically complex.

First, the PS4 controller, besides having a bunch of different buttons and features, has also changed things considerably.

You already said the PS2 and 3 controller had pressure sensitive buttons. But did you know that the pressure sensitivity is gone from the DS4?

Did you also know that they're using very different, and much more precise motion sensors in the DS4?

Remember that they announced a speaker in the DS4? Also a port for a headset?

Did you also know that the DS3 controller was already pushing the bandwidth limits for a wireless signal with the PS3, one of the reasons of which was the pressure sensitivity? They also had to change the way the data is sent and handled to accomodate all the new things. Now they have higher resolution motion sensor data to send back, as well touchpad input, the upstream bandwidth opened up by killing the pressure sensitive buttons allowed for that. But now there's a lot of downstream data that needs transferring like in-controller speaker output, headset input/output, lightbar information, and newer rumble feedback.

Sure, the touchpad is a gimimck, but that doesn't mean the whole hasn't made a drastic technical change over the previous.

All these things add up to a significant change in the controller. Also, one of the reasons why you buy consoles is that with each generation, you just buy the system and its controllers, and that's it. You don't have to worry about odd system configurations, or sloppy developers forgetting to support one thing or another. The developers get the benefit of knowing exactly what hardware they're dealing with, and can make games that make the best use of that hardware. If they allowed the PS3 controller on the PS4, that solidarity of platform is broken by developers having to fiddle around for players that stubbornly use older controllers without the proper features.

Sorry, but I'd rather have the headset plugged into the controller, a small speaker to get player specific cues, and other functionality like split screen adjustment based off the controller lightbars.

What you're asking is for developers to gut features from their game, and for gamers to lose out on useful or interesting new features just because you can't be bothered to buy a $50-$60 controller for your $400 - $500 game console. Oh wait, you don't need to buy one because one comes with the system, and I severely doubt anyone will be playing with you on the couch.

#43 Edited by SomeJerk (3130 posts) -

gb2gaf

#44 Edited by SamStrife (1282 posts) -
@vertrucio said:

Egg, do you actually know anything about how controllers are made and how they interface with consoles? No? Then learn. You are not some bright flower of a mind that has discovered some grand conspiracy, but rather just an ignorant person who has found some anomaly and thinks it's a sign of the apocalypse. It's like idiots that don't bother to learn ballistics and rocket science before calling the moon landings a hoax.

The reality is much simpler, but technically complex.

First, the PS4 controller, besides having a bunch of different buttons and features, has also changed things considerably.

You already said the PS2 and 3 controller had pressure sensitive buttons. But did you know that the pressure sensitivity is gone from the DS4?

Did you also know that they're using very different, and much more precise motion sensors in the DS4?

Remember that they announced a speaker in the DS4? Also a port for a headset?

Did you also know that the DS3 controller was already pushing the bandwidth limits for a wireless signal with the PS3, one of the reasons of which was the pressure sensitivity? They also had to change the way the data is sent and handled to accomodate all the new things. Now they have higher resolution motion sensor data to send back, as well touchpad input, the upstream bandwidth opened up by killing the pressure sensitive buttons allowed for that. But now there's a lot of downstream data that needs transferring like in-controller speaker output, headset input/output, lightbar information, and newer rumble feedback.

Sure, the touchpad is a gimimck, but that doesn't mean the whole hasn't made a drastic technical change over the previous.

All these things add up to a significant change in the controller. Also, one of the reasons why you buy consoles is that with each generation, you just buy the system and its controllers, and that's it. You don't have to worry about odd system configurations, or sloppy developers forgetting to support one thing or another. The developers get the benefit of knowing exactly what hardware they're dealing with, and can make games that make the best use of that hardware. If they allowed the PS3 controller on the PS4, that solidarity of platform is broken by developers having to fiddle around for players that stubbornly use older controllers without the proper features.

Sorry, but I'd rather have the headset plugged into the controller, a small speaker to get player specific cues, and other functionality like split screen adjustment based off the controller lightbars.

What you're asking is for developers to gut features from their game, and for gamers to lose out on useful or interesting new features just because you can't be bothered to buy a $50-$60 controller for your $400 - $500 game console. Oh wait, you don't need to buy one because one comes with the system, and I severely doubt anyone will be playing with you on the couch.

Vertrucio wins. Flawless Victory. Fatality.

#45 Posted by kpaadet (409 posts) -

Have Sony said if whether or not its multi touch? If it is, then I could think of some neat ways of using it.

#46 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@kpaadet said:

Have Sony said if whether or not its multi touch? If it is, then I could think of some neat ways of using it.

Pretty sure they said its multitouch

#47 Posted by Scroll (593 posts) -

It'd bother me more if it was like the old generations where I'd have to buy 3 extra controllers at launch to get all that hot split screen action. We get a controller bundled with the console and I'll use that until it wears out completely and get another etc, It really doesn't matter in the same way it used to.

#48 Posted by egg (1450 posts) -

Wow...so because you assume the touchpad is going to be nothing more than a gimmick, you're complaining you can't use a controller without one?

Whether the touchpad is a gimmick or not (no one can say at this point), the fact is, the hardware is different and therefore won't be compatible. You're not complaining aobut not being able to use 360 pads on the Xbox One and that changes less...

1) What's funny though is that we have no reason to believe the touchpad will be awesome yet people (as in gamers, CONSUMERS) are already trying to justify the lack of PS3 controller support even though it doesn't benefit them. And if the touchpad ends up being awesome, so what? PS3 controller should still be compatible.

2) Xbox One should absolutely be compatible with Xbox 360 controllers. PC gamepads should be compatible for that matter seeing as they can do everything the Xbox One controller can.

#49 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@egg said:

@samstrife said:

Wow...so because you assume the touchpad is going to be nothing more than a gimmick, you're complaining you can't use a controller without one?

Whether the touchpad is a gimmick or not (no one can say at this point), the fact is, the hardware is different and therefore won't be compatible. You're not complaining aobut not being able to use 360 pads on the Xbox One and that changes less...

1) What's funny though is that we have no reason to believe the touchpad will be awesome yet people (as in gamers, CONSUMERS) are already trying to justify the lack of PS3 controller support even though it doesn't benefit them. And if the touchpad ends up being awesome, so what? PS3 controller should still be compatible.

2) Xbox One should absolutely be compatible with Xbox 360 controllers. PC gamepads should be compatible for that matter seeing as they can do everything the Xbox One controller can.

I think you did not get the news that NOTHING is compatible with the XBOX one. Not even your Headset.

One issue the company has now addressed is whether or not Xbox 360 controllers and accessories will have any compatibility with Xbox One. The short answer, is no. Only Xbox One controllers and accessories will work with the new console."

Read more at

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/124239-Xbox-360-Controller-Incompatible-with-Xbox-One#q0ZSpDikLJTYeWws.99

#50 Posted by SamStrife (1282 posts) -

@egg said:

1) What's funny though is that we have no reason to believe the touchpad will be awesome yet people (as in gamers, CONSUMERS) are already trying to justify the lack of PS3 controller support even though it doesn't benefit them. And if the touchpad ends up being awesome, so what? PS3 controller should still be compatible.

2) Xbox One should absolutely be compatible with Xbox 360 controllers. PC gamepads should be compatible for that matter seeing as they can do everything the Xbox One controller can.

At this point you're so clearly a troll, let it be known I'm only replying to you because I'm bored at work.

So you're saying if the touchpad is awesome, there should be controllers out there that don't use it being compatible. This is something that immediately segregates an audience, where developers all of a sudden have to worry about players using controllers without touchpads. That is in no way a good thing.

Xbox 360 controllers and accessories have been confirmed to not work with the Xbox One (as per @darji's post above). There's A LOT less different between 360 and One controllers and yet you have no problem with that?

Honestly, this thread should be locked because you're so obviously doing it as flamebait and have no logical or coherent points or posts.