Removed

Very interesting blog. I have thought a lot about how these two games compare, and I'm in general agreement with you. Persona 4 holds a special place in my heart for introducing me to JRPGs and even the concept of anime in general having any sort of relevance (before I thought it was for jerks), but in terms of tone and themes, I find Persona 3 to be more effective. On top of that, I feel like Persona 4's characters have been so diluted by the million spin-offs that I find it hard to appreciate the game on its own.

I've always found the colour themes in the game to be particularly interesting; I don't think any games use colour quite like this. It is clear right from the title screen of each game what its tone is, and while 4 is sometimes sad and 3 is sometimes cheerful, there is an overlying theme that carries through each game very well. In Persona 4, I thought the TV stuff hit a bit on-the-nose, but it's still a valid criticism of the TV generation and the balance of abundant information and willful ignorance. The true ending boss is pretty goofy outside of the context of Shin Megami Tensei, but without it, as a game experience, it would feel a bit incomplete. It is also very cheerful, which is not a bad thing, but I do agree that darker stuff generally hits harder (which is why Neon Genesis Evangelion is my favourite TV show). However, the start of Persona 3 really drags it down for me. It's been a while since I've played it, so bear with me if I'm vague, but the Apathy Syndrome stuff seems like it's mentioned very little at the start, and is treated as background dressing until the very end of the game. It seems like something that is only covered in news stories and barely factors into the main characters' story until too late. Apart from that, though, the game is very consistent about its tone and the story is strong.

I'm interested to hear what you have to say about the music. I have listened to both soundtracks extensively and have opinions about the role the music plays in each game, but I will wait for your blog post to comment on that :P.

I have not read the full thing, but I am convinced you are wrong about every single aspect of everything. P3 was a disappointing, emo mess. Persona 4 dabbles in light and dark themes without resorting to "Check out these "evokers", aren't they edgey?" FYI, they got old 2 hours in.

EDIT: The only ground I'm willing to concede is that P3 had the best S. Link of the two games: the Maya S. Link. Maybe it says something about me, but I felt so close to the teacher at the end, and even though the game never straight up acknowledges or has a scene with her talking about it, there is a random scene with her and MP in the faculty room. Again, nothing is mentioned, but I did feel a different aura or vibe in the room.

The only feelings I can muster about Persona 3 anymore are relief that I'm no longer playing it and dread at having to slog through another 30 identical floors of Tartarus.

Edit: Also Ai Ebihara is maybe the best Social Link in the Persona series. Come at me.

Persona 3 tops 4 in almost every way imo.

Persona 3 is a much better game than 4. It always has been. 4 is like a kids toy.

Persona 3 = Shadow killing and drama with a few wacky high school adventures.

Persona 4 = Wacky High school adventures with a bit of murder mystery.

P4 is more focussed on the fun aspect and hanging out with these virtual friends. I preferred P3 overall in regards to story and characters.

Nice work. Very well written.

One of my breaking points in preferring the story of P3 to P4 is the amount of elaboration the games go through in justifying their more mystical elements, which are really just videogame mechanics with interesting ties to mythology/cultural lore. P4 has the characters go on some pretty extensive discussions in an attempt to explain the situation of fighting insane deity like creatures which still just boils down to, "This doesn't make any sense". P3 had more of a "This doesn't make any sense. Let's go." vibe right off the bat with the characters only taking a few moments in side conversations to pontificate on what it all means.

I also much prefer the darker storyline and ambiance of P3.

Interesting read. I disagree with you on some of the stuff but I did play Persona 4 before P3 (which is bound to have some influence).

I would find it rather difficult to separate the plot and characters of any story but I can see how you think P3's general plot is better. I personally find the theme of accepting the parts of yourself that you're not necessarily proud of to be a much stronger and more important theme than accepting your mortality. I also think Persona's 4 themes are executed on better than 3 with each character having to accept who they are which in turn ties in with the Persona 4's overall story.

I hate comfort fiction. I hate reading books or watching TV shows where the main characters have plot armour. It's boring. But how many main characters really die in the P3... 2(MC and Shinji)? But I don't think Persona 3 was great at conveying it's darker themes and tone, the ending wasn't presented great (which is something I've seen other people say, they didn't even realise MC died at the end) and I could see what others mean when they say the characters are all emo.

But keep writing these, it was still an interesting read.

For me, the first few hours and the last few hours of 3 are better than 4, but I can't argue with that middle 80-ish.

To actually elaborate even though it's late and I'm tired, I'll say that I much preferred Persona 4's tone to Persona 3. Within the first 10 minutes or so of starting P3 you're tossed headlong into fighting shadows and such, and it came off as terribly paced. I used to think that Persona 4's opening took way too long, but after playing through 3, I really appreciate that they take the time to let you get a real feel for the town before they lay the nonsense on too thick.

It's something that I really enjoyed in Persona 4; the 'real' world and the supernatural elements all stay very separate (most of the time). The main character's on vacation in a little out-of-the-way town, going to school, meeting new people... and then murders, and then the Midnight Channel and all the things that go along with it. Still, it feels very out-of-the-way; it causes some scheduling issues, sure, and there's the occasional risk that your fellow students might die, but whenever something from the Midnight Channel crosses over and starts directly interfering with the story or the characters' lives, it's very jarring. For a large part of the game the Midnight Channel's nothing but a tool being used by a murderer, which is interesting and fun, even though it does eventually take center stage.

I think Persona 4, in that regard, does the 'modern fantasy' thing in a much more enjoyable manner than 3. In 3 you're pretty much set up with a secret group who wants to study a big crazy shadow tower, has resources, special equipment, a huge company backing them... it's all a bit grand and absurd, you know? I'm not against grand and absurd, mind you, but I much prefer Persona 4's low key approach to things, and I also relate a hell of a lot more to the message of trying to understand your fellow people than accepting your mortality. I've been suicidal for years, I don't need to hear another spiel about dying and depression. I'd much rather get to know rad characters in a (mostly) quiet town and see some interesting takes on their life problems and how they choose to face them.

Also, Yellow's way better than blue.

It's always interesting to read something that completely disagrees with your opinions. Well, maybe it's not that I disagree completely, but it's more like, I agree with most of the observations, but see it from a different perspective. I think the biggest case of this is Persona 3's handling of death. It's hard to go into it without talking too much about the characters (which this particular blog isn't about) so maybe I'll save that for when you post your blog revolving around the characters.

Besides that, the only thing I really have to say is that I have trouble contributing to this discussion because separating the story, character, and mechanics aspects of a game is hard for me to comprehend. The reason I prefer P4 in almost every way is because of the package as a whole is so thematically-consistent (though arguments can be made that the detective-aspect of the game isn't-- fair enough) and intermingled. Thus, I feel like it's weird to compare P3 to Game of Thrones because of the "story." Sure, death is very integrated in the story, but without the characters, death would mean nothing. That's perhaps not the best way of phrasing that but bleh.

I think whether one prefers 3 or 4 comes down to highly subjective stuff. One such example is that P3's atmosphere is edgy and cool and serious, where P4 is nostalgic, intentionally tacky, and awkward. So much about the games' stories is so very different that, even if I prefer 4 any day, I couldn't say "one is better than the other." I've know some people and told them they'd just love this game, Persona 3, and with others, I wouldn't shut up about how they should play 4.

It's not "edgy". You should have read the rest of it, he talks about Persona 3's themes of accepting death as everyone's eventual fate. The writing involved isn't always the best, but the story has a pretty good grasp on its themes and ideas.

Story, Characters, Graphics, Gameplay, and Music

I finished Persona 3 FES last year and Persona 4 Golden this year. While I'll agree that Persona 3 has the better story, I feel like Persona 4 improved on all of the other aspects by quite a bit, except maybe graphics because these two games aren't much different on a technical level. Persona 4's gameplay is much better than 3's. Portable did a lot to make P3's gameplay better, but I still don't feel like it measures up to 4's difficulty pacing, enemies, bosses, etc. I think 4 has the second best gameplay of all the Shin Megami Tensei games I've played, a little behind Nocturne, and that's some very high praise. Speaking of, if you like dark and depressing JRPG's @theuselessgod, then Nocturne is pretty great.

@believer258: P3 is "edgy" and heavy handed as well about the death theme. That last boss fight went on forever, what with the regen and the bullshit quotes.

I never played Persona 3, but I wanted to say I enjoyed the switches between happy and dark a lot. It gave context to the characters and made me more invested in them. They felt more rounded up than if they were just one note (i.e. gloomy) all the time. For example, I don't think I would have cared about Nanako's accident so much if I haven't shared as much time with her, both sad and happy.

I am not saying P3 characters look like one notes, but I wanted to defend the changes in tone on Persona 4.

I agree with you conclusions, but I personally feel that P4 was the greater narrative achievement for Atlus itself, because I think a happy-ish story is much harder to write well with depth (and make it still interesting).

In a way my take is that it's abit akin scoring diving, there's a degree of difficulty in what the story is trying to achieve to consider as well...

Having just beat FES the other day, I don't understand how anyone can say it is better than 4 personally. As you said it depends on ones personal preferences but I actually like fun lovable characters that have personalities wrapped around an engaging tense story.

Both stories are great and the more interesting argument, I think, is which game has the better SLs.

I guess I'm on the opposite side of the fence than most people here. Having played both games, I highly prefer the 4th one to the 3rd. When it comes to gameplay Persona 4 is objectively better in every way possible - you no longer get tired, they streamlined the weapons so they don't deal 3 different kinds of damage, you can control your companions, and the dungeons are so much more varied and more interesting than Tartarus.

When it comes to the story though it becomes subjective, though I'll admit that I liked the more light-hearted approach to it that Persona 4 took. Persona 3 definitely felt a lot more dramatic though, especially since you knew when the full moon was and most of the full moon bosses are a LOT of fun to fight and the situations they place you in are great. Persona 4 also was a bit too predictable, who can honestly say that they didn't figure out immediately who the main antagonist was when the game gave you a list of choices? Hell, I figured it out waaaaaaaaaay back in July, so when the game prompts you for the choice in December, it's more of a "FINALLY you idiots figured it out!" kind of choice rather than a "No Way!" Kinda thing.

But despite the missteps the fourth game took, I still liked the heavier focus on building friendships and relationships with your friends and family. It puts you in a much better mood, especially after the very bleak, dark, and depressing third game.

Persona 3 is an 80 hour game with serious pacing issues that killed any desire I had to replay it.

Do we have to discuss "The Answer," or is everyone in agreement that it is a bad piece of fiction?

@flappy: ugh, I hate that the answer even exists.

Persona 3's ending is one of the best ever. There was no need to continue the story.