#1 Posted by DavidMerrick (69 posts) -

I was surprised at how quickly I beat this game, though it makes sense as its a Zelda I don't need to be at home to enjoy. But as to my actual topic of discussion: who else was pleasantly surprised regarding the not one but two twists at the end? The last game in the series I can remember having as good story points had to be Wind Waker.

For safety's sake, the spoilers I'm referring to are Hilda's motivations and Ravio's true identity.

#2 Posted by Fear_the_Booboo (437 posts) -

I saw Hilda's motivations coming from a mile away. Not that I mind seeing a plot twist coming, but it didn't add nothing for me. Ravio true identity felt like a nice touch though.

Still, the story wasn't really involving. I don't expect that from Zelda games, so I did not mind.

#3 Posted by Xeiphyer (5602 posts) -

Hilda's motivations was basically given away very early on, but Ravio's identity and motivations was pretty awesome. Didn't see it coming and honestly hadn't considered that possibility, so that was pretty cool. Also, what they use the triforce for the end was pretty nice.

#4 Posted by TooWalrus (13178 posts) -

Somebody mentioned "I wonder what Link does with all of that gear once he's finished with it, he probably just sells it," which I thought was really funny and something I didn't think about. Obviously Lorule's Link analog had his own adventures at some point, which is interesting to think about.

#5 Posted by schreiberty (207 posts) -

I thought is was pretty good in general, but I feel like using the triforce to make another triforce is a little cheap. Kind of like wishing for more wishes.

#6 Edited by Superkenon (1418 posts) -

I knew there had to be some significance to Ravio's bunny costume, so I figured he was supposed to be Link's counterpart. Didn't stop it from being a great reveal, though. Also, it was a talking Link. That's effing crazy.

Actually, I hope they do something more with these elements. Although Lorule is probably too tied to the Dark World gimmick, it'd be great to see it factor into a future game somehow. Heck, set a whole game there. The Legend of Hilda, why not.

I thought is was pretty good in general, but I feel like using the triforce to make another triforce is a little cheap. Kind of like wishing for more wishes.

Yeah, perhaps the physics are a bit questionable there, haha.

But, maybe think of it more like 'restoring' a triforce rather than 'making' one. I think we can still say it's impossible to just create triforces with triforces willy-nilly, but their wish worked in this case because they were merely rejuvenating one that had been broken.

#7 Posted by Ubersmake (754 posts) -

The thing that got me was that they visited Lorule and Hyrule's Sacred Realms. Hyrule's Sacred Realm *was* the Dark World in Link to the Past. So it was...comforting? To know that Lorule wasn't actually the Dark World, but just a darker version of Hyrule where things didn't go well.

#8 Edited by Aegon (5544 posts) -

@superkenon said:

Actually, I hope they do something more with these elements. Although Lorule is probably too tied to the Dark World gimmick, it'd be great to see it factor into a future game somehow. Heck, set a whole game there. The Legend of Hilda, why not.

That's exactly what I though, lol. Not sure if they would go with Legend of Hilda as the name (Though I prefer Hilda's aesthetic to Zelda's). Playing as the Hero of Lorule would give Nintendo a lot more room for innovation.

Also, I guess if I looked hard enough I would've seen the Ravio thing coming. I knew he was hiding something, just not what. Where did he get those items? How did he just happen to find Link, bring him to his own home AND give him the necessary item for solving the dungeon puzzles?

Also Also, this is the first Zelda game I completed and yeah, the adventure itself doesn't feel as "epic" as something like Okami, mostly do to much less character development and less character interactions overall. The world didn't feel as inhabited as Okami as well (that game is pretty much the pinnacle for me [so far] when it comes to action-adventure games). I kind of liked the way Yuga was presented and all, but there was just too little info and history about him. In any case, I still really enjoyed the game. It was fun.

#9 Edited by BisonHero (6453 posts) -

@ubersmake said:

The thing that got me was that they visited Lorule and Hyrule's Sacred Realms. Hyrule's Sacred Realm *was* the Dark World in Link to the Past. So it was...comforting? To know that Lorule wasn't actually the Dark World, but just a darker version of Hyrule where things didn't go well.

Yeah, that was a nice bit of consistency.

Anyway, yeah, because I beat several Lorule dungeons in one sitting, I noticed it was super strange how obviously covetous Hilda was acting towards Link, basically saying "Yep, he's here to save Lorule, too bad the same can't be said for Hyrule MWAHAHAHAHAHA", and just the whole "let me look at imprisoned Zelda in a painting" made her seem like a villain observing her captive. So that twist I saw coming a good ways off.

The Ravio thing was brilliant, because I was willing to write him off as a weird oddity of the world, in the same way the mask salesman in Majora's Mask is just this total weirdo who knows way more than he should. Also explains why Ravio conveniently has this bracelet to give you that lets you merge with walls and enter Lorule.

#10 Posted by Wrighteous86 (3782 posts) -

Loved the significance of Ravio's Rabbit outfit.

Loved Lorule and everything it entailed.

Hate that half of the Zelda games are basically light world/dark world or existing in "alternate Hyrules/dimensions":

  • Twilight Realm
  • Dark World
  • Sacred Realm
  • Lorule
  • Termina
  • Koholint Island
  • World of the Ocean King

How does one planet have so many alternate realms? Not to mention all the one-off races, many of which are redundant. The Twili and the Sheikah. The Subrosians and the Mogma.

Eh, nitpicky.

Also, failing to refer to the merged being of Yuga and Ganon as Yuganon was a missed opportunity.

#11 Edited by Superkenon (1418 posts) -

@wrighteous86: There's not that many, though a lot is open to interpretation I suppose.

Koholint wasn't an alternate world, but a weird fake island in the normal world's sea. The "World of the Ocean King", similarly, seems to be billed as just an unknown part of the sea.

The Dark World and the Sacred Realm are the same place, or at least they used to be -- the implication once being that Ganon's influence is what turned the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. ALBW seems to throw a wrench in this, as Lorule looks very much like the Dark World, making the Sacred Realm its own thing after all? Maybe? Either way, Lorule = Dark World, or Sacred Realm = Dark World.

Termina was arguably a tripped-up dream, though once again ALBW leaves room for it to be, in fact, a part of Lorule, since they both play with weird parallel crap.

The Twilight Realm is probably its own thing.

So:

  1. Dark World/Sacred Realm
  2. Lorule/Dark World
  3. Twilight Realm
  4. (if termina is its own thing)

SO THERE?

#12 Posted by BisonHero (6453 posts) -

@superkenon: Even if they have different story explanations, I think his point is that the basic format of Zelda settings gets reused a lot.

A Link to the Past could've just been a one-time thing, with Hyrule/Dark World. But then several subsequent Zeldas keep reusing that same idea. Link's Awakening doesn't, but Koholint Island may as well be an alternate Hyrule, between the mountains at the top of the map, the castle in the middle, the watery areas on the right side of the map (though that's a bit of a stretch, I guess).

Then Ocarina of Time pretty explicitly borrows the whole "dual world you can switch between" mechanic, except it's time travel instead of good/evil (and frankly the part where Link can go back in time and become young Link again makes almost no sense). Twilight Princess also cribs this idea, except they couldn't even be bothered to flesh it out, so each "dark world" moment is just a one-time scripted mission (between that terrible fake dual worlds, and how lame the wolf form is, and all the delays Twilight Princess suffered, I really wonder how incredibly troubled development of that game was, because it feels like corner-cutting city). Oracle of Seasons and Ages both use the "alternate versions of the same world" in different ways as well. And then Link Between Worlds, while a great reimagining of the dungeons and dungeon bosses, is obviously reusing the entire layout of the map plus the light world/dark world idea.

Termina is actually "alternate dream sidestory thing" done right, in that it doesn't crib heavily from Link to the Past/Ocarina of Time in its structure or map layout. Instead of switching between two or more world states, you instead keep looping around the same 3 days and noting down what important NPCs are up to at various points. This is still actually a really original, underused idea, compared to the number of games that have a light world/dark world mechanic. Clock Town is this weird city state that has way more sidequests to do in it than Hyrule Castle ever has and has all kinds of interesting, non-princess-based politics going on around this festival that's supposed to be going on. It actually has its own interesting mythology with the Giants, and each region has its own culture.

Also, Wind Waker and Skyward Sword both deserve credit in offering a world that isn't based around flipping between two or more world states, and instead the unique hook is "Hey guys, you get to sail/fly!", respectively.

Anyway, I think I agree with @wrighteous86, in that Zelda recycles concepts a little too often (though I vastly prefer things like Link Between Worlds to the 3DS remake of Ocarina of Time). They should try to do more weird concepts like Majora's Mask which are just Link off doing weird adventures, instead of slavishly showing me Ganon stealing the Triforce and conquering Hyrule and somehow there is a dark world, for the 8th time.

#13 Posted by Superkenon (1418 posts) -

@bisonhero: Why you gotta harsh my buzz when I'm trying to talk lore here, sheesh!

#14 Posted by The_Hiro_Abides (1261 posts) -

@wrighteous86: There's not that many, though a lot is open to interpretation I suppose.

Koholint wasn't an alternate world, but a weird fake island in the normal world's sea. The "World of the Ocean King", similarly, seems to be billed as just an unknown part of the sea.

The Dark World and the Sacred Realm are the same place, or at least they used to be -- the implication once being that Ganon's influence is what turned the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. ALBW seems to throw a wrench in this, as Lorule looks very much like the Dark World, making the Sacred Realm its own thing after all? Maybe? Either way, Lorule = Dark World, or Sacred Realm = Dark World.

Termina was arguably a tripped-up dream, though once again ALBW leaves room for it to be, in fact, a part of Lorule, since they both play with weird parallel crap.

The Twilight Realm is probably its own thing.

So:

  1. Dark World/Sacred Realm
  2. Lorule/Dark World
  3. Twilight Realm
  4. (if termina is its own thing)

SO THERE?

Excellent points. I'd say he has got you there Wrighteous.

#15 Edited by Wrighteous86 (3782 posts) -

@the_hiro_abides said:

@superkenon said:

@wrighteous86: There's not that many, though a lot is open to interpretation I suppose.

Koholint wasn't an alternate world, but a weird fake island in the normal world's sea. The "World of the Ocean King", similarly, seems to be billed as just an unknown part of the sea.

The Dark World and the Sacred Realm are the same place, or at least they used to be -- the implication once being that Ganon's influence is what turned the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. ALBW seems to throw a wrench in this, as Lorule looks very much like the Dark World, making the Sacred Realm its own thing after all? Maybe? Either way, Lorule = Dark World, or Sacred Realm = Dark World.

Termina was arguably a tripped-up dream, though once again ALBW leaves room for it to be, in fact, a part of Lorule, since they both play with weird parallel crap.

The Twilight Realm is probably its own thing.

So:

  1. Dark World/Sacred Realm
  2. Lorule/Dark World
  3. Twilight Realm
  4. (if termina is its own thing)

SO THERE?

Excellent points. I'd say he has got you there Wrighteous.

I know I focused on the story with my point, but I more meant the concept, as the other guy said. It's always a "2 sides of the same coin thing".

And the split timeline makes the lore argument even more complex and "implied". Who's to say Termina in one timeline isn't Lorule in another, etc.

#16 Edited by BisonHero (6453 posts) -

@wrighteous86: Oh, I see how it is. I'm "the other guy". IS THAT ALL I MEAN TO YOU!?

Also, man, while everybody is here, let me just say: holy shit the ending to Phantom Hourglass is bad.

In Link's Awakening, at least they really play up that several characters are concerned about what happens should Link succeed at waking the Wind Fish, plus there is a shit ton of mythology lore that basically spoils that the island is a dream of the Wind Fish. In Phantom Hourglass, as much as I predicted that the wise village elder was obviously the Ocean King, it just comes out of fucking nowhere that this multi-island region is a construct of his, and (unlike Link's Awakening) there is zero attempt at causing pathos over the fact that (by succeeding) you just obliterated the existence of all those people you've been interacting with the whole game.

#17 Edited by Superkenon (1418 posts) -

@wrighteous86: I thought you might've been talking gameplay, but you also listed the likes of Koholint and Termina who don't play into that mechanic, so I wasn't sure. Either way, I decided to seize the window to yap about Zelda theories. Yay!

I actually like that ALBW puts the lore into some amount of disarray again. They laid down the law with their official timeline, and they're already effing with it. I love it.

Trying to infer anything about the Majora's Mask on Link's wall gives me a headache. MM took place in a different timeline from ALttP, so why's the mask there in ALBW? Did that Link's ancestor have an alternate MM adventure? Does it still have evil in it? Does ALBW in fact take place in the MM timeline, making this a parallel to ALttP rather than a chronological sequel? Is it just a damn easter egg???!

The fun is on trying to suss out connections though, so I'll be a loony and pretend it means something. Also, MM totally had upside-down triforce motifs in it. WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN??

@bisonhero: Shit, I guess I remember jack-all about PH's ending. I thought they were just warped back home or something.

Wasn't Linebeck's descendant in Sprit Tracks? Why'd he not cease to exist, then? Or I guess he could've just been a guy who got lost in there like Link did.

#18 Posted by BisonHero (6453 posts) -

@superkenon: To quote Wikipedia:

Oshus, now in his true form as a white whale, readies to depart with the Spirits of Power, Wisdom and Courage, while Linebeck, surprising everyone, wishes not for treasure but for his ship back, and Tetra and Link teleport back onto Tetra's pirate ship, where its crew tells them that only ten minutes had passed since the pair left the ship, insisting that their journey was a dream. However, Link still possesses the now-empty Phantom Hourglass, and sees Linebeck's ship on the horizon, knowing that his adventure was real.

So like, it's either all a dream that was reality due to Oshus, or it all happened in some weird pocket dimension. Either way, it sounds like none of those islands really exist. I don't remember if Linebeck originated in the dream dimension thing and Oshus just felt generous and let him continue to exist in the real world, or maybe Linebeck got caught in the same thing that Link and Tetra did in the beginning, meaning he is from the real world in the first place. It's not like directly the ending of Link's Awakening, but Oshus in his true form is literally the Wind Fish from Link's Awakening, and the part where "Hey, the game happened but none of it was real!" seems to be the implication, and there is zero foreshadowing of it.

In light of that, I don't even understand what the antagonist monster thing in PH was supposed to be. He's kept at the bottom of that Temple of the Ocean King you keep going back to, and you have to take Oshus' word for it that he's in some way doing bad things or is going to when he escapes, but since that temple isn't even a real place, then what was the threat being posed? Some internal corruption in Oshus' mind? At least Link's Awakening had the good sense to directly refer to the final boss as a Nightmare to at least keep things kind of consistent.

#19 Posted by The_Hiro_Abides (1261 posts) -

Anyway, I think I agree with @wrighteous86, in that Zelda recycles concepts a little too often (though I vastly prefer things like Link Between Worlds to the 3DS remake of Ocarina of Time). They should try to do more weird concepts like Majora's Mask which are just Link off doing weird adventures, instead of slavishly showing me Ganon stealing the Triforce and conquering Hyrule and somehow there is a dark world, for the 8th time.

Well I agree that the Zelda franchise could use more interesting concepts for story. They do tend to dip in the same well way too often. A lot of Majora's Mask concepts should be reused for a new game. Time traveling did make the side content dense but accessible. Much better than, well, you have a shovel go dig everywhere! Having said that, not having a Goron mask would be great. Those rolling sections were a little tedious.

When I first saw A Link Between Worlds trailer, I thought it was going to be awful. Dark world again? And a sequel to A Link to the Past? That's setting a high bar of expectation.

Also, yeah that Phantom Hourglass ending was really terrible. Surprise! You wasted all that time! It did feel like it was a lot more pointless than Link's Awakening. Which at least foreshadowed it's nonsense throughout the story such as with a goomba randomly in a dungeon.

#20 Edited by Superkenon (1418 posts) -

@bisonhero: What I can remember about Bellum (the antagonist monster) is that he was some kind of life-gobbling parasite who was sealed away in the temple by the Ocean King. If you take that at face value, then those islands had to be real for him to be locked away. If we assume it's all a dream, then... yeah, maybe one can surmise that Bellum was attached to the Ocean King all along, then Mr. King stopped the monster's rampage by locking the both of them into a weird dream-state. And the rest is all nightmarish manifestations.

There was also that whole Ghost Ship thing, which was Bellum's way of luring people into the 'domain'. I guess that can fit either theory.

After looking it up a bit, it seems nothing explicit is ever said to the effect of it being a fake world or not. (Also I watched the ending again. I guess I wasn't really forgetting anything -- there just wasn't much there, haha) But... eh, whatever, I guess that's not the beef I have with it. I think I'd be fine with it either way if Bellum was just an interesting bad guy at all, but he was just a monster who looked as threatening as the average boss. Whose only development was embedded in the scant exposition moments of Phantom Hourglass, and even then it was "HE'S A PARASITE". I actually enjoyed PH as a game, but yeah, it didn't do anything substantial as the narrative was concerned.

Linebeck was alright though.

#21 Posted by Hailinel (24426 posts) -

Just beat the game tonight, and while I did see the twists coming, I liked the way that they were presented. Hilda in particular rocketed up my list of favorite Zelda characters, that's for sure. Ravio is pretty cool, as well. It's funny to think that he's the closet we've gotten to a Link with actual dialogue (no, the CDi games don't count). I really liked the ending as a whole. The final battle with Yuga and using the bow in painting form was a nice twist on the fights with Ganon in the first Zelda and A Link tot he Past, and using a Triforce wish to restore Lorule's Triforce, while perhaps obvious, is very fitting for the story, which I thought was charming overall, along with the characters.

#22 Posted by Quantris (250 posts) -

@hailinel said:

It's funny to think that he's the close[s]t we've gotten to a Link with actual dialogue

Well excuuuuuuuuuse me, Princess! (couldn't resist)

#23 Posted by Hailinel (24426 posts) -

@quantris said:

@hailinel said:

It's funny to think that he's the close[s]t we've gotten to a Link with actual dialogue

Well excuuuuuuuuuse me, Princess! (couldn't resist)

Doofy Cartoon Link doesn't count either! :P

#24 Posted by BisonHero (6453 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@quantris said:

@hailinel said:

It's funny to think that he's the close[s]t we've gotten to a Link with actual dialogue

Well excuuuuuuuuuse me, Princess! (couldn't resist)

Doofy Cartoon Link doesn't count either! :P

Doofy Cartoon Link is best Link.

Using the Triforce wish to restore Lorule's Triforce was fitting, but a little too easy. Things feel a little too consequence-free if "the good guys won" also means "they can fix literally any terrible loss or injustice, past or present". But yes, yes, the whole thing is basically the same ending as Link to the Past where Link wishes for everything in Hyrule to be restored as if Ganon/Agahnim never screwed things up, so I'll give it to them.

#25 Posted by PandaBear (1361 posts) -

Nintendo is good at bringing back characters for little cameos so I hope Ravio appears again ... hopefully in the inevitable Majora's Mask 3DS remake.

#26 Posted by Hailinel (24426 posts) -

Nintendo is good at bringing back characters for little cameos so I hope Ravio appears again ... hopefully in the inevitable Majora's Mask 3DS remake.

I don't know if they'd have a cameo from him or any non-Majora's Mask character in a theoretical remake. Did they include any such bonuses in Ocarina of Time 3D?

I did appreciate the Majora's Mask references in ALBW, though. Hopefully they're hints that a remake is in the cards.

#27 Posted by SteadyingMeat (1160 posts) -

Hilda's intentions were obvious and I unfortunately got Ravio spoiled for me because the internet has no common courtesy. It was still one of the better Zelda endings I've seen, though. I'm glad to see that Zelda stories keep getting better and better. (Yes, I liked Skyward Sword's story, I'm not sorry).

Really good game overall. Like you, though, I was surprised how quickly I beat (and 100 percented) it. :P

#28 Posted by sparkysanxion (47 posts) -

Yeah, it felt like the quickest I have ever beaten a Zelda, although the last one I finished was WindWaker on the Gamcube (I didn't finish Twilight princess, or any of the older DS games)

As usual, they sort wasn't "great", but serviceable, and I didn't see the 2nd twist coming (the 1st twist was made pretty obvious from pretty early on I thought) :)

#29 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

I haven't enjoyed a Zelda game since Windwaker and I feel awful about it