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#51 Posted by TheHBK (5488 posts) -

@thehbk: Can you source this though? I've read it installs the game for your Xbox, not necessarily your account. Your friend's profiles on another xbox would have to buy the game if you wanted to play split screen on his Xbone it sounds like

Also, noone complains about this on Steam because there wasn't a huge market for used PC game sales before Steam.

http://kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-to-trade-xbox-one-games-online-micros-509140825

We all have our feelings about Kotaku but here you go. This makes sense. I am guessing that they are just approaching it the same way XBLA games are now. You can play on the console purchased with any account or play on the any console as long as you are logged into the account that purchased it.

Online
#52 Edited by BoOzak (935 posts) -

@thehbk: Wait, I have permission to play MY game at my friend's house!? FREEEDOM!!

#53 Posted by wjb (1665 posts) -

@brendan said:

I rent games from my local video store, and I'm wondering how this scheme is going to affect my situation.

Wondering, as well. I buy a handful of games each year, but I still mostly rent because I don't have the money or desire to buy every single game. Either they'll figure something out, or my gaming is greatly going to decrease by next-gen.

Or I'll be two years behind when titles become $5 after Steam-like sales.

#54 Edited by TheMatrixOnline (64 posts) -

@wjb: It seems most likely that game rentals will cease to exist. There is a chance that games could be printed specifically for rental stores that can be used on several machines, but that seems improbable.

#55 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

It is a big deal. Can we please stop pretending that every time the industry pigeonholes us and inconveniences us (maybe not you, but as a whole) it's okay? It's not okay. It will never be okay. I'm saying that as someone that doesn't want us to go down a hole we're already tumbling down with how we allow this industry to nickel and dime us as it is. It might seem insignificant enough to you, but when does it end? There is a lot wrong with the model of this new system, and as one who bought the xbox and xbox 360, I'm not going to touch the 'one'.

Also the name is terrible.

#56 Posted by Lukeweizer (2692 posts) -

That is assuming the fee for borrowing from a friend is 5 dollars. In one article, someone compared installing it off a disc to downloading it from online where the Xbone doesn't care where the data comes from, which made it sound like it would be a full price fee.

This is also assuming there will be a fee for used games in general.

*edit* In this Kotaku, yes, Kotaku, article, they interviewed the Microsoft vice president who said if you take a brand new 60 dollar game to a friend's house to play on his Xbone, you will have to pay the full price as a fee, as in 60 bucks.

http://kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-to-trade-xbox-one-games-online-micros-509140825

#57 Posted by c0l0nelp0c0rn1 (1808 posts) -

NO!!! It's screwing over the consumer, plain and simple. There was no long term thought to this platform, and when the next one inevitable comes out then all the games that came out for this system will be unplayable.

#58 Posted by big_jon (5734 posts) -

There are ways to make this fair, for borrowing games you could get a week free trial of the game, to own it you could pay 5 or 10 dollars.

The tough spot is where does new vs used come in? I mean if I buy a game, give the disk to a friend does he basicly get a discount? I doubt it.

There are a huge number of things about this system that we don't know, give it time, it will fall into place, if not, don't buy it, but getting worked up about details we only half know is pretty silly.

#59 Posted by hidys (1029 posts) -

@brendan said:

I rent games from my local video store, and I'm wondering how this scheme is going to affect my situation.

In short you wont be able to do that any more.

#60 Posted by Trilogy (2656 posts) -

Looks like I'm not getting a Xbox One.

#61 Edited by TrafalgarLaw (1132 posts) -

Eurogamer confirmed the $60 'fee' too and Major Nelson's careful wording implies the same.

#62 Posted by gogosox82 (424 posts) -

This is kind of ridiculous. I'm not going to pay $60 on top of the $20-$30 I'd payed for a used game and I really can't think of anyone who would. This also basically rules out any way of renting games (which i do quite often) from redbox, gamefly etc. This business model is just anti consumer and I find it hard to believe that any consumer would support it.

#63 Edited by briangodsoe (487 posts) -

This is a definite deal breaker. Yeah I'm one of those bottom dwelling pieces of shit that buy used and swap with friends that is helping to kill the industry. But that and trading in or selling is how I can afford to game. I guess this criminal behavior means that I don't deserve the future of gaming or whatever. I should shut up and get another job or something.

Fuck it. Maybe it's time to build a good pc and just give it a permanent home connected to my tv. At least I can play my Steam library there.

#64 Posted by Peanut (954 posts) -

Fuck it. Maybe it's time to build a good pc and just give it a permanent home connected to my tv. At least I can play my Steam library there.

And also never trade or sell you games?

This shit is fucking dumb, but people need to stop sighting Steam as the savior. And let's stop going "BUT STEAMS SALES!" because we don't know who that shit is going to work on consoles next gen either.

#65 Posted by devilzrule27 (1239 posts) -

Microsoft creating market confusion with unclear and conflicting messaging? You don't say.

#66 Posted by JasonR86 (9714 posts) -

@big_jon:

I guess for me it's an issue of ownership. You don't own that game. You own a key that gains you access to that game. I mean if they wanted to go this route I don't know why they didn't just make an online store as the 'ownership' is essentially the same.

#67 Edited by oraknabo (1471 posts) -

If this is all true, then if I was the CEO of GameStop, I would decide right now to do absolutely nothing to promote this console and its games. I'd take the money to sell them, but basically hide them in the back somewhere.

#68 Posted by briangodsoe (487 posts) -

@peanut said:

@briangodsoe said:

Fuck it. Maybe it's time to build a good pc and just give it a permanent home connected to my tv. At least I can play my Steam library there.

And also never trade or sell you games?

This shit is fucking dumb, but people need to stop sighting Steam as the savior. And let's stop going "BUT STEAMS SALES!" because we don't know who that shit is going to work on consoles next gen either.

Yeah. If I'm going to not be able to buy used, trade or any of that I might as well just go all in. At least when the next Gen rolls around, my library will still be there and not useless.

#69 Edited by devilzrule27 (1239 posts) -

@peanut said:

@briangodsoe said:

Fuck it. Maybe it's time to build a good pc and just give it a permanent home connected to my tv. At least I can play my Steam library there.

And also never trade or sell you games?

This shit is fucking dumb, but people need to stop sighting Steam as the savior. And let's stop going "BUT STEAMS SALES!" because we don't know who that shit is going to work on consoles next gen either.

I tend to agree. Steam is a very restrictive platform and thats a big reason why I tend not to use it and a big reason why i still game on consoles.

While I don't buy and sell used games I do swap games with my brother and sister when I go back home and this Microsoft policy clearly puts a stop to that. Here's to hoping sony doesn't follow suit.

#70 Posted by Tireyo (6426 posts) -

The fee sounds really stupid to me, so it's probably best to keep the original console for those who desire to still play older games.

#71 Posted by jsnyder82 (735 posts) -

Since Microsoft seems to be as cryptic as humanly possible while explaining this shit, I'm assuming the fee is going to be much higher than $5-10.

#72 Posted by bobafettjm (1504 posts) -

This stuff is scary to me. I still enjoy plugging in my NES and my Atari 2600 and playing those games this many years later. What happens in 30 years when I still want to play these games that I purchased, even the ones I used the activation codes for? Will the Xbox brand even still be around then?

#73 Posted by Green_Incarnate (1788 posts) -

They should just tie it to the xbox and gamertag and make the transfer free, if you're signed in. That's probably what they're doing, but who knows. This won't affect me negatively much anyways, since I rarely get used games. The no disk in console might be worth it for me.

#74 Posted by rebgav (1429 posts) -

@peanut said:

@briangodsoe said:

Fuck it. Maybe it's time to build a good pc and just give it a permanent home connected to my tv. At least I can play my Steam library there.

And also never trade or sell you games?

This shit is fucking dumb, but people need to stop sighting Steam as the savior. And let's stop going "BUT STEAMS SALES!" because we don't know who that shit is going to work on consoles next gen either.

I tend to agree. Steam is a very restrictive platform and thats a big reason why I tend not to use it and a big reason why i still game on consoles.

The advantage of owning a PC and using Steam is that you can take steps to protect your investment if you choose to. You have that choice. You can back-up your installs, you can hoard non-Steam executables, you can take steps to ensure your access to the games that you have purchased if you want to, with relatively little fuss. Better yet, you don't have to use Steam at all if that is your preference. Your options would be more limited but you'd still have options because Steam has no control over the platform and the platform has no inherent need for Steam.

The quote above, where dude's fear of Steam's restrictive platform keeps him gaming on consoles is the most ironic thing I've read today. I lol'd, thank you.

#75 Posted by CosmoKramer (54 posts) -

I don't know what it's worth, since Microsoft visibly likes to contradict themselves repeatedly, but in this article Phil Harrison says:

"We will have a system where you can take that digital content and trade a previously played game at a retail store. We're not announcing the details of that today, but we will have announced in due course."

Now I'm not exactly sure what this means, because saying that we will be able to trade-in games doesn't necessarily mean that buying and playing used games with no fee will be an option. Maybe a game can be reinstalled for free as long as it isn't installed anywhere else? If all that is managed on the server side, it should be simple enough for any retail store to check if they can resell it.

#76 Edited by Brackynews (4087 posts) -

@golguin: What you've described is identical to how XBLA and GoD games function now. The point, I think, is along the lines of: people are more likely to desire sharing $60 Halo 4 on disc than $15 Shadow Complex on USB, right? But locking to a profile really isn't anything new as far as Xbox DRM goes.

#77 Edited by villainy (560 posts) -

@mattyftm said:

I think the people who it screws over most are kids. When I was a kid, I used to buy loads of 2+ year old games for under £10 each. Having to pay another £5-10 on top of that would be doubling the cost of the game. Kids don't have $60 to spend on the latest releases. Kids play cheap, used, older games. And at Christmas and birthdays, the parents buy a couple of $60 new releases for them. Plus the kids then grow into adult gamers who have money and pay $60 for the latest releases.

If kids are playing half as many games, are they going become as invested in gaming as a hobby? Are they going to ask for the latest games at Christmas? Are they going to continue playing into adulthood and start spending $60 on games themselves? The answer is probably still yes in the majority of cases, but I still think this whole thing is very short sighted. Microsoft and Sony should be looking at long-term investment in their platforms, not short term cash-grabs.

I'm the only big gaming fan in my immediate family. I got a SNES for Christmas the year it came out. A couple years later my sister bought me a used NES for my birthday for $20. I had probably 8 or so SNES games that were bought new and easily 40+ NES games bought used with allowance money for between 2-10$. Used games were a massive influence that drew me into video games and more importantly computers as a hobby. I'm now a Linux sysadmin making a good living spending my days screwing around with my hobby as my job.

Opinion/stream of consciousness time.

I'm terribly conflicted here. Games cost orders of magnitude more to create and developers/content creators deserve to make a living. Publishers are spending huge sums to market and release games. Game resellers are charging a hell of a lot more for used games. Burgeoning video game fans are the ones truly taking the hit because they can no longer legally access the library unless someone close to them is already in deep.

Future advertisers and resellers will find whatever market exists to be advertised and resold. What do ideas like "second hand fee" mean for the future pool of developers and other content creators? The ones who will actually be making the games 20 years from now? Or even future people like me whose hook into back-end computing and technology were driven by gaming in the first place?

Yeah I'm done now. Sorry guys.

#78 Posted by devilzrule27 (1239 posts) -

@rebgav said:

@devilzrule27 said:

@peanut said:

@briangodsoe said:

Fuck it. Maybe it's time to build a good pc and just give it a permanent home connected to my tv. At least I can play my Steam library there.

And also never trade or sell you games?

This shit is fucking dumb, but people need to stop sighting Steam as the savior. And let's stop going "BUT STEAMS SALES!" because we don't know who that shit is going to work on consoles next gen either.

I tend to agree. Steam is a very restrictive platform and thats a big reason why I tend not to use it and a big reason why i still game on consoles.

The advantage of owning a PC and using Steam is that you can take steps to protect your investment if you choose to. You have that choice. You can back-up your installs, you can hoard non-Steam executables, you can take steps to ensure your access to the games that you have purchased if you want to, with relatively little fuss. Better yet, you don't have to use Steam at all if that is your preference. Your options would be more limited but you'd still have options because Steam has no control over the platform and the platform has no inherent need for Steam.

The quote above, where dude's fear of Steam's restrictive platform keeps him gaming on consoles is the most ironic thing I've read today. I lol'd, thank you.

I can't play Civ5 without Steam.

And if you read the rest of my post i touched on what i do with the games I own. Thats why i don't use steam. I can't swap my games with my family members on steam. Thats how they're restrictive. It's not fear and its not a knock on Steam itself. It's a knock on digital distribution, it's why i buy boxed copies of games. Steam simply happens to be the largest digital platform out there and the one that people like to cite for "doing digital distribution right" when it reality they do it as poorly as everyone else. Anyway I'm glad I could make you laugh even if it was your own inability to understand that not everyone uses things the same way you do that brought that joyous smile to your face.

#79 Edited by rebgav (1429 posts) -

I can't play Civ5 without Steam.

And if you read the rest of my post i touched on what i do with the games I own. Thats why i don't use steam. I can't swap my games with my family members on steam. Thats how they're restrictive. It's not fear and its not a knock on Steam itself. It's a knock on digital distribution, it's why i buy boxed copies of games. Steam simply happens to be the largest digital platform out there and the one that people like to cite for "doing digital distribution right" when it reality they do it as poorly as everyone else. Anyway I'm glad I could make you laugh even if it was your own inability to understand that not everyone uses things the same way you do that brought that joyous smile to your face.

I suspect that you could play Civ 5 without Steam, though you'd obviously be in violation of ToS and unable to use online features. Still, you could abstain from Steam and still play fully-featured strategy games of that sort, same as the owner of one console can still play FPS games even if they are denied a specific game exclusive to another platform.

I absolutely concede that people have had the privilege of swapping, lending and renting discs until now and that that has been an advantage over digital copies but I found that statement ironic given the current uproar over Microsoft's new DRM and the possibility that the PS4 may go the same way as far as we currently know. If they really are limiting the functionality of physical copies then consoles have, overnight, become a much more restrictive proposition - leaving console-only gamers with few options but to accept the new restrictions or abandon the platforms.

Digital licenses are obviously very murky and fraught with potential hazards but if forced to throw my lot in with one party I would struggle to come up with rational reasons to put my trust in either Microsoft or Sony (ahead of Valve or Amazon or direct sales) given their very anti-consumer images, especially if we're really starting from a position of those two companies absolving themselves of an entire generation-worth of digital game sales within their own ecosystems.

#80 Posted by Slag (4450 posts) -

If Microsoft goes through with this, it's business suicide.

It remains shocking to me how little people understand how used games actually impact New game sales. The whole belief that a Used Game sale robs the developer of new sale is not even close to accurate and is making some huge assumptions about consumer behavior and perhaps more importantly where the money that buys their new titles comes from.

And the whole people "don't complain about Steam" argument is totally missing the boat. Steam gives gamers frequent opportunities to buy games at very steep discounts and lets the users retain the games indefinitely (or perceived to anyway). If they didn't do that people wouldn't embrace the loss of resale value as readily. In essence Steam Digital games costs less because they are less valuable.

Microsoft OTOH is essentially raising the price of their games dramatically while dramatically lessening their value. Not a smart move if you want to grow your audience especially in a world where there has never been so much cheap competition. This is a very poor business and pricing strategy.

This is going to push a lot of gamers, especially young kids, out of the hobby.

#81 Edited by Dan_CiTi (3340 posts) -

I don't understand why used games is a thing. Publishers act like it is piracy, there is this idea that with a used game I am stealing a "place" online with the game (or however you want to say it) when in reality I am just taking the other person's place, as if I bought the game, and the original person is not in the equation. The XONE seems extremely iffy. Imagine if I would have to pay Capitol Records $5 for every used LP I bought? That would be insane.

#82 Edited by OurSin_360 (916 posts) -

It's def not a big deal, just get the ps4 and not deal with it at all.

*edit* you know i wonder how much of that money goes to the developers of the game if any at all??? If none, what makes them any better than gamestop?

#83 Edited by Sergio (2131 posts) -

Whatever "fee" they end up deciding, it's not just a matter of buying and selling used games. Personally, it would affect me handing games down to my nephew, so I'd be better off getting him a PS4, which I already planned to get for myself. (Haven't decided on the XOne yet.) Already hearing complaints from people with multiple consoles and accounts in one home that play concurrently.

#84 Posted by OurSin_360 (916 posts) -

@sergio said:

Whatever "fee" they end up deciding, it's not just a matter of buying and selling used games. Personally, it would affect me handing games down to my nephew, so I'd be better off getting him a PS4, which I already planned to get for myself. (Haven't decided on the XOne yet.) Already hearing complaints from people with multiple consoles and accounts in one home that play concurrently.

Yeah man, it's already a pain in the ass to be forced to have multiple accounts on a system, I wonder if you have to purchase the game on all the accounts on one console now to? My god, the more i think about the Xbone the more disgusted i get smfh

#85 Posted by JesusHammer (139 posts) -

@mordeaniischaos: Yeah. Fuck the consumer making informed choices. Go out and buy it the first day after seeing the latest IGN review to make sure you get the pre-order DLC! Don't forget the season pass! Just buy that and the other first day DLC while you wait for the game to install! Man I love when my consumer rights are fucked in the ass and I just take it!

#86 Edited by indus (84 posts) -

From what I hear Sony is planning on giving the publisher or developer the option to do the used game fee. Hopefully they won't as I won't be buying an Xbox One with the $60 charge for sharing your games if Major Nelson is to be believed. Even now, sharing is a pretty integral experience in playing games with friends as an adult. I can't even imagine my childhood without sharing games with my friends.

Some of my best memories come from a couple friends coming over with their games or sleep overs. Sure, you can login to another xbox to unlock your games but that only works with internet. How many parents want to trust their kids the with the password to the logins either, I suppose strong parental controls could fix that. I dunno, the more I think about it the more I can't support that kind of business strategy for the future of consoles.

#87 Posted by SlashDance (1818 posts) -

@slashdance said:

Not a big deal for you. Half the games I play on consoles I borrow from friends.

You aren't paying for it. You're basically complaining that you won't be lucky enough to mooch off of others.

You must be joking. Maybe you've never borrowed a game, an album or a book from a friend, but where I come from, that's what friends do. We share what we own with each other, it's as simple as that.

#88 Posted by golguin (3940 posts) -

@golguin: What you've described is identical to how XBLA and GoD games function now. The point, I think, is along the lines of: people are more likely to desire sharing $60 Halo 4 on disc than $15 Shadow Complex on USB, right? But locking to a profile really isn't anything new as far as Xbox DRM goes.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've always been able to trade and share games with my friends and family. Downloadable games have NOTHING to do with this conversation.

#89 Posted by Petiew (1350 posts) -

The second hand fee is a big deal. If you're buying second hand it's probably because you can't afford to pay full price for these games. When I was a kid I had to save up for a long time just to buy a £20 game, if there was another £5-£10 charge on top of that I wouldn't have bought any games, and wouldn't have had the specific console that imposed these charges on me.

If Sony don't go with this I think it's going to be really beneficial to them. However I can see big name developers holding their games to ransom unless Sony give them the option to implement it unfortunately.

#90 Posted by PolygonSlayer (428 posts) -

Second hand games and the ability to rent games between friends could be a deal breaker for a lot of people. Especially since it seems like the "fee" is basically the same as buying the game new.
If however Sony does this as well then the market is even on this. So far Sony has not denied or confirmed this, just that it doesn't need to be "always online". I can see Sony maybe being more open with this and making it optional, and then letting the developer/publisher choose if they want to use that kind of solution or not. That way they at least will seem to be pleasing both devs/publishers and consumers.
Guess we will have to wait until E3 to get all of those answers.

#91 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

All the news I have read about this is then corrected and then changed by an update.

Last I saw when you trade in a game you keep it on your Hard Drive until someone else buys it and installs it. I saw no mention of a Fee

#92 Edited by CommanderGermanShepard (303 posts) -

I just feel bad for kids today, if I wasn't able to trade games around with friends or rent games back in the day I probably would of had like 4 games over the life of my PS1, plus I made alot of friends when I was a kid though talking about and trading around games at school. I feel this way of gaming is a thing of the past, I would put money on Playstation 4 going the same way, if they had none of this copy protection stuff they would of came out today and said it, but instead I feel they are letting Xbox take the hit from the public and once that wears down they will announce PS4 has it too.

#93 Edited by Santa_8aby (97 posts) -

My family has 3 Xboxs now, so if I were to buy 3 Xbox Ones, that means I have to buy 3 copies of the game so my wife & child can play it? Preposterous. I really enjoyed my 360 despite its flaws, but if they decide to go to a console locked disc system, I'm out.

If the industry changes things and both the consumer & business benefit, that's fine. But when it's solely for the benefit of the company and a complete loss for consumer; I can't see the wisdom in supporting that.

#94 Posted by Dagbiker (6977 posts) -

im betting that microsoft will come up with a reseller program or code that gamestop can printon the recept. you still might have to pay msrp for it, but you would be able to play out of print games. Otherwise gamestop probably wouldent cary any xbad gaames

#95 Edited by Dezztroy (804 posts) -

Microsoft trying to prevent used games? Hey, they've actually done something admirable for once.

#96 Edited by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

@dagbiker said:

im betting that microsoft will come up with a reseller program or code that gamestop can printon the recept. you still might have to pay msrp for it, but you would be able to play out of print games. Otherwise gamestop probably wouldent cary any xbad gaames

Points are being removed.

#97 Posted by AlKusanagi (922 posts) -

I'm sure it's set up where you will be able to untether a game from the system/account it's linked to, and that only one copy of it will be able to exist in the "cloud" at a time without a fee. You'll probably be able to finish it, delete it from your system, and then pass it on or sell it.

#98 Posted by golguin (3940 posts) -

All the news I have read about this is then corrected and then changed by an update.

Last I saw when you trade in a game you keep it on your Hard Drive until someone else buys it and installs it. I saw no mention of a Fee

"Another piece of clarification around playing games at a friend’s house – should you choose to play your game at your friend’s house, there is no fee to play that game while you are signed in to your profile."

There is your mention of the fee. Everyone understood that statement perfectly fine and are showing what they think about it.

http://majornelson.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-and-used-games/#comment-904448631

#99 Posted by GERALTITUDE (3347 posts) -

We have zero idea what the fee is.

The cost of the fee is what makes it a big or small deal (if it exists). $1 fee? Meh.

$5? $10? $15 dollars? Already there are reports saying the fee will be much closer to the full price of the game. So consider that.

#100 Posted by Winternet (8021 posts) -

You are the fee!