How Many Times Can You Change the Face of Gaming?

#1 Posted by regularassmilk (1431 posts) -

So, I suppose I was just thinking retrospectively about Rockstar's career. Notably, GTA III-V. It seems that every game ends up being a "groundbreaking masterpiece", as said by most. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan too. But I suppose I'm just left wondering, Rockstar changes the way gaming works semi-annually. Whether it be Bully, or GTA, or Max Payne, they're always cranking out the future in some way or another.

So what's left Rockstar? What are you guys expecting them to do next? What will set this GTA apart from IV? How can you innovate when you've been doing nothing but? What's next for Rockstar, now that they've re-invented the wheel several times?

#2 Edited by Tru3_Blu3 (3245 posts) -

Rockstar is composed of God-incarnates. If they had nothing to give, they wouldn't give it.

Don't worry. I'm sure Rockstar cannot wait to show off what they have planned. Even though, they better get rid of the auto-lock on system in their shooting mechanics and add some goddamn aim-assist.

#3 Posted by Indiana_Jenkins (399 posts) -

Manhunt 3

#4 Posted by dcgc (878 posts) -

I'm expecting them to do another GTA...

#5 Edited by Gerhabio (1977 posts) -

I want the next GTA to go a little deeper in its critique of American consumerist culture since they seem to be taking the more serious tone approach with the last game.

Saints Row is now the opposite old school chaos simulator that the first GTAs were, or at least GTAIII

Also, solve that disconnect between story and gameplay: You are criminal looking for redemption and yet you solve everything by killing?

#6 Posted by regularassmilk (1431 posts) -

@Gerhabio said:

I want the next GTA to go a little deeper in its critique of American consumerist culture since they seem to be taking the more serious tone approach with the last game.

Saints Row is now the opposite old school chaos simulator that the first GTAs were, or at least GTAIII

Also, solve that disconnect between story and gameplay: You are criminal looking for redemption and yet you solve everything by killing?

Do you ever think all of that strong social commentary will ever escape out of the background of those games though? Like, WKTT was one of the best parts of GTA IV. So was PLR. I just feel like the social issues of our world (and the GTA world) are almost better when just left in the midst of things, part of everyday life and stupidity.

#7 Posted by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

@regularassmilk said:

@Gerhabio said:

I want the next GTA to go a little deeper in its critique of American consumerist culture since they seem to be taking the more serious tone approach with the last game.

Saints Row is now the opposite old school chaos simulator that the first GTAs were, or at least GTAIII

Also, solve that disconnect between story and gameplay: You are criminal looking for redemption and yet you solve everything by killing?

Do you ever think all of that strong social commentary will ever escape out of the background of those games though? Like, WKTT was one of the best parts of GTA IV. So was PLR. I just feel like the social issues of our world (and the GTA world) are almost better when just left in the midst of things, part of everyday life and stupidity.

Don't you ever find it odd that Niko basically murders his way through Liberty City while at the same time constantly talking about how he's trying to turn over a new leaf?

#8 Posted by baconbits33 (1155 posts) -

@Gerhabio said:

I want the next GTA to go a little deeper in its critique of American consumerist culture since they seem to be taking the more serious tone approach with the last game.

Saints Row is now the opposite old school chaos simulator that the first GTAs were, or at least GTAIII

This actually, I used to always just want GTA to be as crazy as San Andreas was, however with Saints Row I actually want GTA V to have a very serious tone. Hell I would actually appreciate it if they took a slight Sopranos/Breaking Bad type of tone. I don't know maybe I'm just crazy but I would love a mood like that.

And I don't mind a little more of a political take on things, seriously between the Occupy Wallstreet protests and the Eurozone crisis I can't imagine why Rockstar wouldn't wanna push the envelope just a wee bit.

#9 Posted by regularassmilk (1431 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@regularassmilk said:

@Gerhabio said:

I want the next GTA to go a little deeper in its critique of American consumerist culture since they seem to be taking the more serious tone approach with the last game.

Saints Row is now the opposite old school chaos simulator that the first GTAs were, or at least GTAIII

Also, solve that disconnect between story and gameplay: You are criminal looking for redemption and yet you solve everything by killing?

Do you ever think all of that strong social commentary will ever escape out of the background of those games though? Like, WKTT was one of the best parts of GTA IV. So was PLR. I just feel like the social issues of our world (and the GTA world) are almost better when just left in the midst of things, part of everyday life and stupidity.

Don't you ever find it odd that Niko basically murders his way through Liberty City while at the same time constantly talking about how he's trying to turn over a new leaf?

Yeah, I see what you're saying. But I think that was just a conflict of Niko's story ark with the par-for-the-course gameplay of a GTA game.

And you know, I don't really fully invest in the new leaf thing. I think Niko liked the concept of being a changed man, but ultimately he did what he did, in the name of revenge. Whether or not you decided to actually take the revenge at the end.

#10 Posted by mandude (2666 posts) -

I wouldn't say they change gaming with every release. GTAIII was groundbreaking and had a huge impact on the industry, but I mean...nothing else really influenced much. They really just expanded on the same. Max Payne was a great title, but I don't think it had much of an impact on how gaming works either, though...

#11 Posted by regularassmilk (1431 posts) -

@mandude said:

I wouldn't say they change gaming with every release. GTAIII was groundbreaking and had a huge impact on the industry, but I mean...nothing else really influenced much. They really just expanded on the same. Max Payne was a great title, but I don't think it had much of an impact on how gaming works either, though...

Ah, I'd say Max Payne was pretty revolutionary in changing (at the time) what 3rd person shooters were by definition. Bullet time being a staple, and all that.

#12 Posted by mandude (2666 posts) -

Hmm...that could be true. Haha. Max Payne was the only third person shooter I've ever played.

#13 Edited by TheDudeOfGaming (6078 posts) -

GTA III was groundbreaking, Vice City not so much, and San Andreas was great. GTA IV on the other hand had some great graphics and awesome physics, but it wasn't groundbreaking. I'd expect GTA V to be pretty similar.

#14 Posted by Ghostiet (5341 posts) -
@regularassmilk said:

@Hailinel said:

@regularassmilk said:

@Gerhabio said:

I want the next GTA to go a little deeper in its critique of American consumerist culture since they seem to be taking the more serious tone approach with the last game.

Saints Row is now the opposite old school chaos simulator that the first GTAs were, or at least GTAIII

Also, solve that disconnect between story and gameplay: You are criminal looking for redemption and yet you solve everything by killing?

Do you ever think all of that strong social commentary will ever escape out of the background of those games though? Like, WKTT was one of the best parts of GTA IV. So was PLR. I just feel like the social issues of our world (and the GTA world) are almost better when just left in the midst of things, part of everyday life and stupidity.

Don't you ever find it odd that Niko basically murders his way through Liberty City while at the same time constantly talking about how he's trying to turn over a new leaf?

Yeah, I see what you're saying. But I think that was just a conflict of Niko's story ark with the par-for-the-course gameplay of a GTA game.

And you know, I don't really fully invest in the new leaf thing. I think Niko liked the concept of being a changed man, but ultimately he did what he did, in the name of revenge. Whether or not you decided to actually take the revenge at the end.

Still, it's lazy writing. Niko has absolutely NO reason to have any dilemmas in the endgame, given his characterization throughout the game. No reason to deal with Dimitri other than a bullet to the face. It really looks like Rockstar smelled the whole moral-decision trend and jumped on the wagon there. Either let's get back to psychopaths like Vercetti or just think it through better.

Red Dead Redemption did a better job justifying Marston's actions, even though they've still included a rather useless Honor meter.

#15 Posted by fullmetal5550 (339 posts) -

A GTA game set in the Star Wars universe.

#16 Posted by AngelN7 (2973 posts) -

Again people with the whole Story/gameplay stagnation couldn´t be more wrong , first Nico travels to LC for revenge he did want to start again but learned early on that it wasn´t gonna be easy to let go of what he did in the no matter how much he tried and second if you find him hypocritical and nonensensical that he muders his way through the story while at the same time saying in the cutscenes that he wants to let go of his ways then why do YOU go on killing sprees and rampages.

Videogames that´s why, is an open world game you´re in control of him so you decide how he should act while living in that world what can they do? lock you out of pulling a gun on someone like they did on that Scarface game wich end up making all the civilian living mannequins , because I never felt the need to kill people left and right I never felt the story was contradicting itself and thus the ending was so much stronger, if you look his profile in the GTA wiki you can see the list of murdered by Nico Bellic some of wich are optional , hell he questions each and every muder he committed.

Each time I read this issue I just think why dosn´t everyone thinks that John McClane is also sociopath because of the god knows how many thugs he has killed during Die Hard movies.

#17 Posted by Jimbo (10007 posts) -

I don't consider GTA 4 to be all that groundbreaking tbh.

#18 Posted by ShaneDev (1696 posts) -

GTA 3 was the only one that was ground breaking and really changed the gaming world. The rest were excellent games but still just improvements on top of what three did. I doubt they will be making any GTA 3 style leaps forward.

#19 Posted by onarum (2304 posts) -

Yeah I really doubt V will be groundbreaking at all, it'll probably be just more of IV with a different story and some tech improvements.
 
IV wasn't really groundbreaking  though, it had some impressive tech behind it but as far as gameplay goes it was not really innovative, the only GTA that could be called groundbreaking would be III I think.

#20 Posted by Cloudenvy (5891 posts) -

I don't think anyone calls any GTA other than three "groundbreaking".

#21 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

@AngelN7 said:

Each time I read this issue I just think why dosn´t everyone thinks that John McClane is also sociopath because of the god knows how many thugs he has killed during Die Hard movies.

I like how people think they have an awesome argument to make and they pull out some bullshit straw man, like the above, which completely destroys anything they are talking about.

Grand Theft Auto III was certainly groundbreaking. Vice City was awesome simply because they took a great formula, turned around a completely different setting and made smart decisions to the mechanics. San Andreas I consider to be the kitchen sink approach to the series. There is nothing San Andreas doesn't have in it.

#22 Posted by AngelN7 (2973 posts) -

@Napalm said:

@AngelN7 said:

Each time I read this issue I just think why dosn´t everyone thinks that John McClane is also sociopath because of the god knows how many thugs he has killed during Die Hard movies.

I like how people think they have an awesome argument to make and they pull out some bullshit straw man, like the above, which completely destroys anything they are talking about.

Grand Theft Auto III was certainly groundbreaking. Vice City was awesome simply because they took a great formula, turned around a completely different setting and made smart decisions to the mechanics. San Andreas I consider to be the kitchen sink approach to the series. There is nothing San Andreas doesn't have in it.

So not only you critizice my argument but then do nothing about stating your point about how is it "wrong" , then procede to state a different point of what I was originally talking about... that´s just great.

#23 Posted by Twitchey (865 posts) -

I don't want it to be groundbreaking. The formula they have is so close to perfection that any drastic changes could ruin the franchise.  
Look at Call of Duty for example. With the release of Modern Warfare 1 they created a formula people love and ever since then they have added to it. 
 
I'm not saying GTA is like CoD in gameplay style, but in the development strategy they are similar. Rockstar and Treyarch/Infinity Ward create games their fans want.
 
I want V to be serious. I want an ending like Red Dead, one that actually makes you think.  
 

#24 Posted by AjayRaz (12477 posts) -
@Cloudenvy said:

I don't think anyone calls any GTA other than three "groundbreaking".

i'd like to think that at least some people think that GTA IV was a step-up in the genre. while i'm not one of those people, perfect review scores all over the place has to mean something.  
 
of course, it could have been just the hype. i thought that Just Cause 2 was more 'groundbreaking' in terms of making a great open world game. 
#25 Posted by NoelVeiga (1133 posts) -

@AjayRaz said:

@Cloudenvy said:

I don't think anyone calls any GTA other than three "groundbreaking".

i'd like to think that at least some people think that GTA IV was a step-up in the genre. while i'm not one of those people, perfect review scores all over the place has to mean something. of course, it could have been just the hype. i thought that Just Cause 2 was more 'groundbreaking' in terms of making a great open world game.

I'm a bit tired of the backlash towards IV, to be honest. While I agree that Red Dead did story better and, sure, all those dumb open world sandboxes are fun to mess around for a few hours, GTA IV's ambition and sheer scope was (and is) amazing. The city they pulled off, the tone of the characters, the feel of the whole thing... it's staggering. Sure, it takes patience to play, and it has gameplay kinks that get annoying after a while, but as far as fleshing out a virtual environment and place characters on it? They did an incredible job at that.

#26 Posted by BaneFireLord (2958 posts) -

Calling it right now, GTAV is going to be a Farmville clone.

#27 Posted by Joru (311 posts) -

Given the fact that in essence it will be the same formula, you probably can't call it groundbreaking, only GTA III can be labeled that. It is most likely going to be great, just like this song, which might answer your question:

#28 Posted by Dave_442 (52 posts) -

@regularassmilk said:

@mandude said:

I wouldn't say they change gaming with every release. GTAIII was groundbreaking and had a huge impact on the industry, but I mean...nothing else really influenced much. They really just expanded on the same. Max Payne was a great title, but I don't think it had much of an impact on how gaming works either, though...

Ah, I'd say Max Payne was pretty revolutionary in changing (at the time) what 3rd person shooters were by definition. Bullet time being a staple, and all thaI thin

The first two GTA games were great fun but not what I would consider game-changers. GTA3 was groundbreaking in many ways. The rest of the GTA series were also great games, but they didn't really introduce a whole lot of things that had not been encountered in GTA3. After playing through GTA4, I felt the franchise was getting a bit stale to be honest.

I never played the Manhunt series so I cant really comment there. Red Dead was a great game but I wouldn't say it changed the face of gaming. Also, if I am right (could be wrong) Max Payne and LA Noire were developed by Remedy Entertainment and Team Bondi, respectively. As far as I remember, the only involvement Rockstar had with the original Max Payne was in publishing the console ports. Also, though the facial animation technology used in LA Noire was pretty revolutionary, it was developed by Team Bondi.

So yea, in my opinion GTA3 was a pretty groundbreaking game while the rest were just really great games.

#29 Posted by AjayRaz (12477 posts) -
@NoelVeiga: i think you got me wrong. i continue to have a ton of fun with GTA IV on a regular basis by playing the multiplayer with my friends all the time. i love the atmosphere of Liberty City, the music, the rude personalities of everyone you bump into, and i appreciate everything it does to make LC feel like a living, breathing city just waiting for you to cause chaos in.  
 
however, groundbreaking is synonymous with innovation, and that isn't really something that GTA IV did. it refined the open world genre to an extent, but there are other games that did more and took more risks to evolve the genre. i think that's where a lot of the disappointment from GTA IV came from. i mean, when San Andreas came out, there weren't really any games that did open world scale and had so much content like San Andreas did at the time. 
#30 Posted by NoelVeiga (1133 posts) -

@AjayRaz said:

@NoelVeiga: i think you got me wrong. i continue to have a ton of fun with GTA IV on a regular basis by playing the multiplayer with my friends all the time. i love the atmosphere of Liberty City, the music, the rude personalities of everyone you bump into, and i appreciate everything it does to make LC feel like a living, breathing city just waiting for you to cause chaos in. however, groundbreaking is synonymous with innovation, and that isn't really something that GTA IV did. it refined the open world genre to an extent, but there are other games that did more and took more risks to evolve the genre. i think that's where a lot of the disappointment from GTA IV came from. i mean, when San Andreas came out, there weren't really any games that did open world scale and had so much content like San Andreas did at the time.

Oh, I didn't mean it like you were bashing GTA IV, as much as that there is a trend out there bashing it for being "too serious" or for its gameplay quirks. Those guys normally also point at Saints Row or Just Cause as a "better" take on open world, which I'd absolutely disagree with.

Now to your other point, though, that would be me disagreeing with you directly. Just the mobile phone in GTA IV is more relevant to the genre than anything Just Cause or Saints Row have ever attempted. Having side characters actively engage you? Yeah, that's innovative. It doesn't always make gameplay smoother and it doesn't always work great, but it is innovative. There's an Internet in that game, with stuff in it. There's television in there. You get to browse a dating site, walk (not run) out of your apartment while calling a girl on the phone, set up a date, pay a toll to cross the bridge, get to her house, drive her without breaking any laws to a stand up show, watch Ricky effin' Gervais do a routine with her and drive her back home.

Nobody has really done that in such detail before or since. Probably nobody ever will, because that's a really expensive gamble that ruined SEGA when they even attempted something like it in Shenmue. It's frankly amazing that this got greenlit, executed, sold and actually made money. And then it generated backlash, so they'll probably ease off of it for V (arguably they already did in Red Dead). But yeah, for what it's worth, GTA IV is a one of a kind game.

#31 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@regularassmilk said:

So, I suppose I was just thinking retrospectively about Rockstar's career. Notably, GTA III-V. It seems that every game ends up being a "groundbreaking masterpiece", as said by most. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan too. But I suppose I'm just left wondering, Rockstar changes the way gaming works semi-annually. Whether it be Bully, or GTA, or Max Payne, they're always cranking out the future in some way or another.

So what's left Rockstar? What are you guys expecting them to do next? What will set this GTA apart from IV? How can you innovate when you've been doing nothing but? What's next for Rockstar, now that they've re-invented the wheel several times?

Rockstar didn't make Max Payne. It's amazing how many people mix up publisher and developer on this website, it was happening constantly with L.A. Noire too. I'm assuming you're speaking of the past Max Payne games with the first part of your post.

and the last groundbreaking or innovative game Rockstar put out was Grand Theft Auto III, IV was just another GTA game in a prettier engine with less features than some of the previous games. (that also ran like shit)

Edit: L.A. Noire was innovative with that motion capture stuff, but again Rockstar did not make that game so I'm not including it.

#32 Posted by Mr_Skeleton (5155 posts) -

GTA 4 was a great game but not groundbreaking, it was an iteration of the same GTA game since 3 only and a much more powerful system.

As for Bully and Red Dead they also were great games but I really don't see how you can make the argument for groundbreaking.

By the way you forgot Rockstar Games presents Table Tennis.

#33 Posted by AjayRaz (12477 posts) -
@NoelVeiga: great points. it seems like GTA IV established Liberty City, and Gay Tony made great use of crazy weapons and a greater focus on humor, which are arguably some things that a lot of people thought were missing from GTA IV.  
  
i won't mind if GTA has a more dark and serious tone again this time around. if i ever want complete insanity in terms of storyline and open world activities, the Grand Theft Auto series has me covered regardless, and there's always Saints Row if i ever want to go over my head. 
#34 Posted by Brodehouse (10138 posts) -
@ShaneDev Came in here to say exactly this. Without a doubt, GTA3 deserves every bit of credit for inventing one of the most popular genres around. It's one of the most important games ever made, but every GTA since has just been iterative.
#35 Edited by Guided_By_Tigers (8061 posts) -

Only GTA III was groundbreaking, fact.

#36 Posted by GunslingerPanda (4859 posts) -

@regularassmilk said:

So, I suppose I was just thinking retrospectively about Rockstar's career. Notably, GTA III-V. It seems that every game ends up being a "groundbreaking masterpiece", as said by most. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan too. But I suppose I'm just left wondering, Rockstar changes the way gaming works semi-annually. Whether it be Bully, or GTA, or Max Payne, they're always cranking out the future in some way or another.

So what's left Rockstar? What are you guys expecting them to do next? What will set this GTA apart from IV? How can you innovate when you've been doing nothing but? What's next for Rockstar, now that they've re-invented the wheel several times?

Er, but all that is only true of GTAIII though. They don't "change the way gaming works semi-annually," they did so once.

That's a big achievement, but don't go overboard fella.

#37 Posted by NoelVeiga (1133 posts) -

@AjayRaz said:

@NoelVeiga: great points. it seems like GTA IV established Liberty City, and Gay Tony made great use of crazy weapons and a greater focus on humor, which are arguably some things that a lot of people thought were missing from GTA IV. i won't mind if GTA has a more dark and serious tone again this time around. if i ever want complete insanity in terms of storyline and open world activities, the Grand Theft Auto series has me covered regardless, and there's always Saints Row if i ever want to go over my head.

Yeah. I see how people could have found the tone shift jarring, especially coming from San Andreas and Saints Row, but I think it's good that they went there, even if they gave people some of that back in Gay Tony.

Ultimately, I don't have a preference either. I'd love to see the Housers take the franchise to wherever they want to go with it artistically. I liked San Andreas, I liked GTA IV and I loved Red Dead Redemption, so I'm ready to see what they come up with next.

#38 Posted by Moncole (636 posts) -

A game set in a fantasy world

#39 Posted by jakob187 (21763 posts) -

Luckily, I have a concise list of the groundbreaking stuff I want from GTA V! Here it is:

  1. More guns
  2. More money
  3. More bitches
  4. More low riders
  5. More bitches
  6. More hookers to kill and take money from
  7. More money
  8. More guns
  9. More bitches
  10. An ideological perspective on the way that American immigration laws have caused many coming into our country to relate the word "opportunity" with "crime"
  11. More bitches and money
#40 Posted by kingzetta (4307 posts) -
@Cloudenvy said:

I don't think anyone calls any GTA other than three "groundbreaking".

Yeah 3 is the only innovative one, the rest were just bigger.
#41 Posted by astrodoggy (145 posts) -

I would definitely make the case that GTA IV is groundbreaking... and in the same way that GTA III was. GTA III was not the first open-world game, nor the most violent, but it added a huge ammount of depth, scope, and high-poduction valus to an existing genre. I really believe GTA IV did the same thing.

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