Michael and Masculinity in GTA V

Posted by librariangmr (172 posts) -

I'm knee deep in Grand Theft Auto V right now and I find it difficult to wait until I finish the story before getting some thoughts down. I spend some of this write up talking about gender issues in GTA and I do so not to fan any flames (other people can do that). And I apologize in advance if I missed any important and/or meaningful details. Be warned that there are some early game story spoilers that go until a little bit after the player controls Trevor for the first time.

A lot has been said about GTA V's, as well as the rest of the series, issues with misogyny. Truthfully, the games don’t go out of their way to depict women in the most positive light. Oftentimes, they are characterized as strung out street walkers, strippers, internationally renowned porn stars and gussied up pieces of sex meat. There are barely any notable empowered female characters in the franchise, with the possible exception of "Ma" Cipriani (GTA III) and Elizabeta Torres and Karen (GTA IV). Simply put, women just don’t get a fair shake in Grand Theft Auto. GTA Online will give people the opportunity to play as a female avatar, but they don’t come with an established, thought provoking narrative along the lines of Michael, Franklin and Trevor.

Yes, the method in which women are treated in the game is wrong. I don't want to marginalize the issues regarding their portrayal, but what’s interesting about these games, especially in GTA V, is that men are treated in the same vein. In today’s society, women are bombarded with obnoxious standards of beauty and are made to feel worthless if they cannot reach such heights. As for men, they cannot be successful and desired by women unless they’re rich, devastatingly handsome, and cut from the same cloth as God Himself. The humor in Grand Theft Auto works because it puts a funhouse mirror up against our society but because the real world media has an obsession with how men and women should look and act, Rockstar doesn’t have to work very hard to present such a warped view on beauty and masculinity.

Take Brucie, for example. Brucie represents everything that’s dumb and stupid about the whole "Alpha Bro Male" personality. After spending five minutes with him, you get that he's just a 'roid douche who, despite his best efforts, never amounts to anything and ends up looking incredibly pathetic rather than masculine. Men like Brucie exist as a parody of the hypermasculinity our society deems appropriate in modern America. There are no female analogs to Brucie that come to mind. Instead, women are painted in very broad strokes. There are some exceptions, again Elizabeta and Karen, but none of them really get a chance to stand out before the men come along.

Bringing this discussion back to GTAV, at the point I’ve reached in the game I’ve found that the concept of masculinity is a theme that plays heavily towards Michael. In my mind, Michael is one of the best realized characters in the entire Grand Theft Auto franchise. Michael, the retired bank robber, should be happy because he’s obtained the classic American Dream: money, family, fancy cars and a great house. The problem is that despite having what most of us want, Michael is absolutely miserable. He’s also angry. Unlike, say, Niko or Tommy, Michael’s anger comes from the fact that retirement is stifling, leaving him emotionally and mentally impotent. Stuck with a family that doesn’t pay him any respect as a father and husband, Michael growls, screams, lashes out and smashes TVs.

Compounding Michael’s angst are the challenges to his masculinity. In a perfect world, Michael would play the role of loving husband and father to a doting wife and children. The reality is that Michael has little to no control over them. Amanda, his wife, openly flirts and sleeps with her various instructors (thereby directly threatening Michael’s masculinity). Michael’s daughter will do anything to get in with high Los Santos society, even if it means hanging out with a porn production company or taking her underwear off to dance in a TV reality show competition. And then there’s Jimmy, a shiftless pothead and a bit of a fuck up.

Michael has failed his family and in turn, they show him little respect and undermined his authority. The heartbreaking thing about the relationship is that Michael wants to be connected to his family. There are two missions in which Michael and Jimmy go out on the town together and listening as the father tries to show his love and support for his son only to get rebuked is pretty damn sad. When Michael and Trevor are reunited for the first time and Jimmy reveals to them that his sister is auditioning for a TV show, Michael doesn’t immediately act, causing Trevor - of all people - to tell Michael to man the hell up and get his girl back (this is an incredibly powerful moment of softness in Trevor’s otherwise incredibly violent nature).

Between the reunion with Trevor and the success of the jewelry heist, things might actually be looking up for Michael - that is, until his son drugs him in order for the family to move out of the house. In the face of the positive gains Michael has made for himself, his family’s flight once again shows how much of a failure he is to those that matter the most. I still have plenty of game to play, so I feel that I’ve talked as much as I possibly could without knowing what happens between Michael and his family. Will he finally man up? There are hints that we’ll get to see Michael develop further considering his change in personality after the jewelry store heist. Before the mission, he was frustrated and angry. Afterwards he’s calm, collected and, more importantly, happy.

#1 Posted by JouselDelka (967 posts) -

Dude for the love of fuck, GTA is the Expendables of video games, would you scrutinize or review The Expendables? NO, you watch it go BOOM BOOM PEW BOOM and you either enjoy that shit or you don't.

Everyone is looking for depth and social meaning where it is nonexistent, this is Grand Theft Auto, the whore-massacring simulator.

#2 Posted by Yadilie (380 posts) -

@jouseldelka: Welcome to the shit hole that is the internet. Everyone think it's their personal soapbox.

#3 Posted by Zeik (2102 posts) -

@yadilie said:

@jouseldelka: Welcome to the shit hole that is the internet. Everyone think it's their personal soapbox.

Yes, the Internet is definitely a shit hole when a subject like this gets responses like this. Ugh.

#4 Posted by jimmyfenix (3675 posts) -

I am only a third through the game but i have a strange bond with Trevor. Okay he is a bit of a nut case and is a severe addict but i sympathise with Trevor because of the hard ships he has gone through the past decade. I had serious doubts coming in to GTA V in regards to Trevor because i thought Rockstar just through him in to mix things up but after that scene with Michael i felt a strong connection with trevor as he is looking for that second chance in life which Michael got but will not get it on a silver platter.

I am eager to progress more into this game because i want to see if Franklin steps up to he plate when the going gets tough because Trevor looks like the type to reassure Michael when things go bad but Franklin only has Lamar and his crazy aunt as Guidance. It will be interesting to see what happens with these characters.

#5 Posted by librariangmr (172 posts) -

@jouseldelka: You'll forgive me if I disagree, especially when comparing GTA to The Expendables. GTA deserves better than that. Granted, the earlier games placed a higher emphasis on mindless action and wasn't so concerned with telling a solid narrative that critiqued something. That changed with San Andreas, GTA 4, Ballad of Gay Tony and Lost and the Damned. Rockstar placed a higher emphasis on story for these games, many of them quite good and well written and I don't think it is all that fair to simply brush that work aside. That, of course, is my opinion! I'm not here to say how people should play the game. That's not my place.

When I play a game like this, I do like to look for depth and social meaning, especially since rockstar deliberately set out to make Los Santos resemble present day Los Angeles and its celebrity culture. I found it pretty hard to ignore. But then again, I play these types of games differently. And that's okay, right?

#6 Posted by Milkman (16218 posts) -

@yadilie said:

@jouseldelka: Welcome to the shit hole that is the internet. Everyone think it's their personal soapbox.

You two are the shit hole of the internet.

#7 Posted by Mamba219 (152 posts) -

I enjoyed reading that, first of all.

Second of all, I'm thoroughly against all this "misogynist" criticism that's thrown at these games. What about the men in them? Going all the way back to GTA3 they were TOTAL SCUMBAGS. There were "empowered" women in GTA3 by these standards (Catalina was the main villain, Asuka was a powerful gangster, etc.), and the only character in GTA: San Andreas that actually cares about business and finds a decent man who respects her is CJ's sister, while none of the other characters are able to move past the gangbanging they grew up with.

Then in GTA4, every single man you meet is a total scumbag in one way or another, whether it's Roman who can't pay his debts, Dwayne who can't get over being screwed, Brucie who is a roiding loser, or any of the other total sociopaths you meet. The women in the game are not like this other than Elizabeta. So the characters treat women like dirt. Who wants men like this anyway? The world would be better off without them. And of course people like this are going to frequent places with strippers or hookers. Hookers EXIST. They won't go away. Showing them doesn't equal misogyny.

I neither own nor have played GTA5 so I cannot comment on it, but from what I keep seeing it doesn't sound like it gets any better, and I find the clamour for a female GTA protagonist hilarious. Why would you want something like that? Yes, let's have a sociopathic woman running around in the name of equality. Got it!

Calling GTA "misogynist" is so hilariously off-base that it honestly makes me a little sick. Of course the men in the games are misogynist pigs, just like they're scumbag murdering sociopaths. I don't understand why it's worse to show these assholes being jerks to women and sexualizing them than having every single man you meet be worthy of the death sentence. It's an artistic choice, and a valid one.

My two cents no one asked for.

#9 Posted by librariangmr (172 posts) -

@mamba219: First of all, how the fuck could I forget Catalina and Asuka?! Thank you for pointing them out. Man, getting old sucks.

Anyways, a lot of the misogyny talk had come up in some pre-release GTA V reviews so I went in expecting something bad. So far, what I've seen and heard has yet to be any worse than previous games.

#10 Edited by mrfluke (4834 posts) -

@jouseldelka: im with you on hating the excessive deeper meaning/sexism talk thats been happening lately where it feels like everyone cant seem to enjoy a game anymore without dissecting the shit out of it. because " art is subjective to criticism guys CRITICISM!!!"!!!!11111

but calling the gta the expendables of videogames or "the whore-massacring simulator"? ehhhhh maybe the others, but having just finished gta 5 i disagree, its more the oceans 11 of videogames.

#11 Posted by Hailinel (22670 posts) -

@librariangmr: That's actually a pretty thoughtful look at Michael. Not having played GTAV, it's interesting to read about the similarities he shares with past protagonists, as well as the differences that make him stand out. Thanks for writing this!

Dude for the love of fuck, GTA is the Expendables of video games, would you scrutinize or review The Expendables? NO, you watch it go BOOM BOOM PEW BOOM and you either enjoy that shit or you don't.

Everyone is looking for depth and social meaning where it is nonexistent, this is Grand Theft Auto, the whore-massacring simulator.

It's viewpoints like this that keep holding video games and games journalism and critique back. GTA is not above criticism because of its suppose aims. It's just as valid to criticize and analyze GTAV as it is The Last of Us, The Walking Dead, Duke Nukem Forever, or anything else.

#12 Posted by believer258 (11032 posts) -

Dude for the love of fuck, GTA is the Expendables of video games, would you scrutinize or review The Expendables? NO, you watch it go BOOM BOOM PEW BOOM and you either enjoy that shit or you don't.

Everyone is looking for depth and social meaning where it is nonexistent, this is Grand Theft Auto, the whore-massacring simulator.

So far, this game has definitely been bringing up more complex subjects than anything that The Expendables touched. I haven't even made it to the first heist yet (too busy fucking around in the open world), but there was more complexity in the first hour of GTA V than there is in the whole of the Expendables 1 and 2, and it's all been pretty compelling and interesting. Yeah, I'd say it deserves some discussion and scrutiny.

Here's the fucking thing that I don't get - if you dislike scrutiny and criticism, then why don't you hit that fucking close button in the corner of your screen? Or, hell, just close this tab. Open a different thread. You do not have to read or comment on this one, so if you really hate what's being said, then leave. Yes, really, you don't have to be here to hate things, you can go and enjoy them on a surface level and let us nerds and geeks scrutinize, analyze, and dissect anything and everything we can.

@hailinel said:

@librariangmr: That's actually a pretty thoughtful look at Michael. Not having played GTAV, it's interesting to read about the similarities he shares with past protagonists, as well as the differences that make him stand out. Thanks for writing this!

@jouseldelka said:

Dude for the love of fuck, GTA is the Expendables of video games, would you scrutinize or review The Expendables? NO, you watch it go BOOM BOOM PEW BOOM and you either enjoy that shit or you don't.

Everyone is looking for depth and social meaning where it is nonexistent, this is Grand Theft Auto, the whore-massacring simulator.

It's viewpoints like this that keep holding video games and games journalism and critique back. GTA is not above criticism because of its suppose aims. It's just as valid to criticize and analyze GTAV as it is The Last of Us, The Walking Dead, Duke Nukem Forever, or anything else.

I don't think I've ever agreed with you more.

#13 Posted by Demoskinos (13823 posts) -

@mrfluke: Who cares though? If you want to enjoy GTA on surface level and shoot shit , steal cars and bang hookers you can do that. However, there are absolutely a myriad of themes permeating GTA V and I think the Hausers did a great job of making something that is absolutely worth picking apart with characters like Trevor that are as complex as anything ever portrayed on the silver screen. That is the genius of this game it doesn't directly assault you with these things but instead lets you pick everything apart on your own if you so choose.

#14 Posted by mrfluke (4834 posts) -

@mrfluke: Who cares though? If you want to enjoy GTA on surface level and shoot shit , steal cars and bang hookers you can do that. However, there are absolutely a myriad of themes permeating GTA V and I think the Hausers did a great job of making something that is absolutely worth picking apart with characters like Trevor that are as complex as anything ever portrayed on the silver screen. That is the genius of this game it doesn't directly assault you with these things but instead lets you pick everything apart on your own if you so choose.

im all for that and you are absolutely right. there are a ton of themes in this game, as gta at its core concept, strip the guns and cars away, is satire on american culture. i actually finished the game already and got some positive messaging/morals out of it (i know that sounds crazy)

my comment on "criticism!!11" was more towards picking this game apart for "misogyny" and "sexism". which to me, it just feels like these days every game is getting dissected for those two aspects.

#15 Posted by The_Ruiner (925 posts) -

I think this game portrays all parties in a pretty poor light. Misanthropy is kind one of the core themes of the series. But to say that it's "wrong" I don't think is fair. It's cynical and sometimes mean spirited. But it's no more wrong than South Park.

#16 Posted by Missacre (566 posts) -

Eh, what game ISN'T sexist to those SJW these days? I choose to ignore all of that and play games .

#17 Posted by mrfluke (4834 posts) -

@jouseldelka said:

Dude for the love of fuck, GTA is the Expendables of video games, would you scrutinize or review The Expendables? NO, you watch it go BOOM BOOM PEW BOOM and you either enjoy that shit or you don't.

Everyone is looking for depth and social meaning where it is nonexistent, this is Grand Theft Auto, the whore-massacring simulator.

Yeah, I'd say it deserves some discussion and scrutiny.

Here's the fucking thing that I don't get - if you dislike scrutiny and criticism, then why don't you hit that fucking close button in the corner of your screen? Or, hell, just close this tab. Open a different thread. You do not have to read or comment on this one, so if you really hate what's being said, then leave. Yes, really, you don't have to be here to hate things, you can go and enjoy them on a surface level and let us nerds and geeks scrutinize, analyze, and dissect anything and everything we can.

@hailinel said:

@librariangmr: That's actually a pretty thoughtful look at Michael. Not having played GTAV, it's interesting to read about the similarities he shares with past protagonists, as well as the differences that make him stand out. Thanks for writing this!

@jouseldelka said:

Dude for the love of fuck, GTA is the Expendables of video games, would you scrutinize or review The Expendables? NO, you watch it go BOOM BOOM PEW BOOM and you either enjoy that shit or you don't.

Everyone is looking for depth and social meaning where it is nonexistent, this is Grand Theft Auto, the whore-massacring simulator.

It's viewpoints like this that keep holding video games and games journalism and critique back. GTA is not above criticism because of its suppose aims. It's just as valid to criticize and analyze GTAV as it is The Last of Us, The Walking Dead, Duke Nukem Forever, or anything else.

I don't think I've ever agreed with you more.

i do ultimately agree that mr "gta is the expendables of videogames" should've just avoided the thread altogether, cause at the end of the day posting in a topic you dont like just ends up floating that topic up for exposure.

but i do wonder about your attitudes here, you guys want big discussion on games and what have you,

but you all are basically shouting down on the user and telling him to leave the thread for the sake of criticism.. (yes i know said user aint no saint either and yes everyone is entitled to criticism)

very obvious im rambling here, its just watching this chain of comments here do have me wondering if this whole "criticism" movement is going to just make forum/internet interaction more exclusive rather than inclusive.

i mean heck we barely see new people on the forums as is.

#18 Posted by Jams (2956 posts) -

GTA V is a game about sociopaths. The entire world is populated with them. Throw out all the sexism, gender issues or whatever else problem you have and look into a caricature of America where the psycho's (man and woman) run the show with not a single decent person in sight. Anybody who's more worried about ripping apart this game for their personal beliefs have lost too much of their retrospect. You should be able to take a step back and see this game for what it really is.

#19 Posted by Hailinel (22670 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

i do ultimately agree that mr "gta is the expendables of videogames" should've just avoided the thread altogether, cause at the end of the day posting in a topic you dont like just ends up floating that topic up for exposure.

but i do wonder about your attitudes here, you guys want big discussion on games and what have you,

but you all are basically shouting down on the user and telling him to leave the thread for the sake of criticism.. (yes i know said user aint no saint either and yes everyone is entitled to criticism)

very obvious im rambling here, its just watching this chain of comments here do have me wondering if this whole "criticism" movement is going to just make forum/internet interaction more exclusive rather than inclusive.

i mean heck we barely see new people on the forums as is.

JouselDelka is the one that should be criticized for shouting down, if anyone. His very first comment in the thread was:

Dude for the love of fuck, GTA is the Expendables of video games, would you scrutinize or review The Expendables? NO, you watch it go BOOM BOOM PEW BOOM and you either enjoy that shit or you don't.

Everyone is looking for depth and social meaning where it is nonexistent, this is Grand Theft Auto, the whore-massacring simulator.

This isn't constructive. This is telling someone to shut up because they don't want intelligent discourse getting in the way of their "whore-massacring simulator." That is the antithesis of promoting discussion.

#20 Edited by believer258 (11032 posts) -

@mrfluke: Admittedly I didn't add much, but again I haven't actually played through a ton of the game's story. I just got annoyed at the complete dismissal of any sort of intelligent discourse about this game which, along with The Last of Us and Bioshock Infinite, is perhaps the most deserving game of intelligent discourse released in the past few years. All three try to bring video game narrative standards up a little, and I'm certain that at least one of them does. GTA V appears to be doing so as well.

#21 Edited by audioBusting (1298 posts) -

Nice post dude, this makes me want to play the game even more! It's nothing new, but so far the story sounds a lot more interesting to me than GTA4's.

By the way, I don't personally mind spoilers, but maybe you should mark the specific plot points for those who do mind.

#22 Edited by Demoskinos (13823 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

@demoskinos said:

@mrfluke: Who cares though? If you want to enjoy GTA on surface level and shoot shit , steal cars and bang hookers you can do that. However, there are absolutely a myriad of themes permeating GTA V and I think the Hausers did a great job of making something that is absolutely worth picking apart with characters like Trevor that are as complex as anything ever portrayed on the silver screen. That is the genius of this game it doesn't directly assault you with these things but instead lets you pick everything apart on your own if you so choose.

im all for that and you are absolutely right. there are a ton of themes in this game, as gta at its core concept, strip the guns and cars away, is satire on american culture. i actually finished the game already and got some positive messaging/morals out of it (i know that sounds crazy)

my comment on "criticism!!11" was more towards picking this game apart for "misogyny" and "sexism". which to me, it just feels like these days every game is getting dissected for those two aspects.

For those two things sure, and those are the kind of social justice warriors who go actively searching for something to criticize. The Hausers have said I think even in the interview that they just did with Polygon that a female protag has always been something that has been floating around in the idea pool but they want to do it the right way with the right story. I think that is the right way to approach it.

#23 Posted by mrfluke (4834 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@mrfluke said:

i do ultimately agree that mr "gta is the expendables of videogames" should've just avoided the thread altogether, cause at the end of the day posting in a topic you dont like just ends up floating that topic up for exposure.

but i do wonder about your attitudes here, you guys want big discussion on games and what have you,

but you all are basically shouting down on the user and telling him to leave the thread for the sake of criticism.. (yes i know said user aint no saint either and yes everyone is entitled to criticism)

very obvious im rambling here, its just watching this chain of comments here do have me wondering if this whole "criticism" movement is going to just make forum/internet interaction more exclusive rather than inclusive.

i mean heck we barely see new people on the forums as is.

JouselDelka is the one that should be criticized for shouting down, if anyone. His very first comment in the thread was:

@jouseldelka said:

Dude for the love of fuck, GTA is the Expendables of video games, would you scrutinize or review The Expendables? NO, you watch it go BOOM BOOM PEW BOOM and you either enjoy that shit or you don't.

Everyone is looking for depth and social meaning where it is nonexistent, this is Grand Theft Auto, the whore-massacring simulator.

This isn't constructive. This is telling someone to shut up because they don't want intelligent discourse getting in the way of their "whore-massacring simulator." That is the antithesis of promoting discussion.

yea the "whore massacring simulator" is a bit much, also doesnt help that the dude also hasn't returned to this thread either to clarify.

but hell, GTA, made over a billion dollars in 3 days, im willing to bet there are super casual people buying this game. and that this dude is one of those types.

this is just me (and you know what maybe im being too kind here) , but i think saying his comment = telling someone to shut up is a bit extreme though. and thats more you irritated with a juvenile comment. (which i get it, i know you like these discussions/debates when there is substance to them and nothing's wrong with that)

#24 Posted by Hailinel (22670 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

yea the "whore massacring simulator" is a bit much, also doesnt help that the dude also hasn't returned to this thread either to clarify.

but hell, GTA, made over a billion dollars in 3 days, im willing to bet there are super casual people buying this game. and that this dude is one of those types.

this is just me (and you know what maybe im being too kind here) , but i think saying his comment = telling someone to shut up is a bit extreme though. and thats more you irritated with a juvenile comment. (which i get it, i know you like these discussions/debates when there is substance to them and nothing's wrong with that)

That's really not an excuse. GTA being a popular high seller with a large casual audience is not an excuse to berate the creator of this thread for analyzing the game. As irritated as I may be with his juvenile comment, said juvenile comment was made with the intent to shut down discussion.

#25 Posted by mrfluke (4834 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

@demoskinos said:

@mrfluke: Who cares though? If you want to enjoy GTA on surface level and shoot shit , steal cars and bang hookers you can do that. However, there are absolutely a myriad of themes permeating GTA V and I think the Hausers did a great job of making something that is absolutely worth picking apart with characters like Trevor that are as complex as anything ever portrayed on the silver screen. That is the genius of this game it doesn't directly assault you with these things but instead lets you pick everything apart on your own if you so choose.

im all for that and you are absolutely right. there are a ton of themes in this game, as gta at its core concept, strip the guns and cars away, is satire on american culture. i actually finished the game already and got some positive messaging/morals out of it (i know that sounds crazy)

my comment on "criticism!!11" was more towards picking this game apart for "misogyny" and "sexism". which to me, it just feels like these days every game is getting dissected for those two aspects.

For those two things sure, and those are the kind of social justice warriors who go actively searching for something to criticize. The Hausers have said I think even in the interview that they just did with Polygon that a female protag has always been something that has been floating around in the idea pool but they want to do it the right way with the right story. I think that is the right way to approach it.

yea it was an interview with the guardian, they said if the right story comes to mind they would be so down to do it and that gta 5 is more about the male masculinity (which having played through the game, that is very much a core underlying theme of the story)

and of course when that story hit, the social justice warriors came out to play and started complaining and started throwing out the words "misogyny" and "sexism" again.

ultimately my big worry of criticism is basically what cliffy b tweeted out a few days ago (he actually went back to being a chill dude now)

https://twitter.com/therealcliffyb/status/380800302884347904

https://twitter.com/therealcliffyb/status/380801303691403264

#26 Posted by Hailinel (22670 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

@demoskinos said:

@mrfluke said:

@demoskinos said:

@mrfluke: Who cares though? If you want to enjoy GTA on surface level and shoot shit , steal cars and bang hookers you can do that. However, there are absolutely a myriad of themes permeating GTA V and I think the Hausers did a great job of making something that is absolutely worth picking apart with characters like Trevor that are as complex as anything ever portrayed on the silver screen. That is the genius of this game it doesn't directly assault you with these things but instead lets you pick everything apart on your own if you so choose.

im all for that and you are absolutely right. there are a ton of themes in this game, as gta at its core concept, strip the guns and cars away, is satire on american culture. i actually finished the game already and got some positive messaging/morals out of it (i know that sounds crazy)

my comment on "criticism!!11" was more towards picking this game apart for "misogyny" and "sexism". which to me, it just feels like these days every game is getting dissected for those two aspects.

For those two things sure, and those are the kind of social justice warriors who go actively searching for something to criticize. The Hausers have said I think even in the interview that they just did with Polygon that a female protag has always been something that has been floating around in the idea pool but they want to do it the right way with the right story. I think that is the right way to approach it.

yea it was an interview with the guardian, they said if the right story comes to mind they would be so down to do it and that gta 5 is more about the male masculinity (which having played through the game, that is very much a core underlying theme of the story)

and of course when that story hit, the social justice warriors came out to play and started complaining and started throwing out the words "misogyny" and "sexism" again.

ultimately my big worry of criticism is basically what cliffy b tweeted out a few days ago (he actually went back to being a chill dude now)

https://twitter.com/therealcliffyb/status/380800302884347904

https://twitter.com/therealcliffyb/status/380801303691403264

This has absolutely nothing to do with Phil Fish-style harrassment of developers. Analyzing aspects like the theme of masculinity in GTAV is not some threat to the Housers or an aggressive insult. If developers are so thin-skinned that they can't take a critical analysis of their work, then they really shouldn't be working in a creative field.

#27 Posted by mrfluke (4834 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@mrfluke said:

yea the "whore massacring simulator" is a bit much, also doesnt help that the dude also hasn't returned to this thread either to clarify.

but hell, GTA, made over a billion dollars in 3 days, im willing to bet there are super casual people buying this game. and that this dude is one of those types.

this is just me (and you know what maybe im being too kind here) , but i think saying his comment = telling someone to shut up is a bit extreme though. and thats more you irritated with a juvenile comment. (which i get it, i know you like these discussions/debates when there is substance to them and nothing's wrong with that)

That's really not an excuse. GTA being a popular high seller with a large casual audience is not an excuse to berate the creator of this thread for analyzing the game. As irritated as I may be with his juvenile comment, said juvenile comment was made with the intent to shut down discussion.

unless the piece "would you scrutinize or review The Expendables? NO, you watch it go BOOM BOOM PEW BOOM and you either enjoy that shit or you don't". from his comment makes you think that the intent was to shut down discussion,

i really dont get how his comment = what your saying, to me it was just he's just saying the game is about mindless fun (obviously minus a civilized tone, but hey it is the internet)

but no snark though, if thats your interpretation of his comment, then thats your interpretation,

im just making the extrapolation that he might be one of those casual people that doesn't spend time on forums like you and i do (yes i know his post count) or doesnt get involve in the big discussions. and just views gta as the game you just shoot dudes in.

but looking at this thread where he commented, im also not ruling out that the dude was just being stupid here as he's clearly capable of conversation.

#28 Posted by librariangmr (172 posts) -

@audiobusting: Sorry about that! I when I get a moment I will mark them!

#29 Posted by librariangmr (172 posts) -

Hey gang, so this discussion went to a place a I wasn't expecting. Regardless of your stance here, I appreciate ya'll taking the time to check it out. JouselDelka is welcome to thinks what he wants, I won't stop him. But thanks again for taking a look!

#30 Posted by Hailinel (22670 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

@hailinel said:

@mrfluke said:

yea the "whore massacring simulator" is a bit much, also doesnt help that the dude also hasn't returned to this thread either to clarify.

but hell, GTA, made over a billion dollars in 3 days, im willing to bet there are super casual people buying this game. and that this dude is one of those types.

this is just me (and you know what maybe im being too kind here) , but i think saying his comment = telling someone to shut up is a bit extreme though. and thats more you irritated with a juvenile comment. (which i get it, i know you like these discussions/debates when there is substance to them and nothing's wrong with that)

That's really not an excuse. GTA being a popular high seller with a large casual audience is not an excuse to berate the creator of this thread for analyzing the game. As irritated as I may be with his juvenile comment, said juvenile comment was made with the intent to shut down discussion.

unless the piece "would you scrutinize or review The Expendables? NO, you watch it go BOOM BOOM PEW BOOM and you either enjoy that shit or you don't". from his comment makes you think that the intent was to shut down discussion,

i really dont get how his comment = what your saying, to me it was just he's just saying the game is about mindless fun (obviously minus a civilized tone, but hey it is the internet)

but no snark though, if thats your interpretation of his comment, then thats your interpretation,

im just making the extrapolation that he might be one of those casual people that doesn't spend time on forums like you and i do (yes i know his post count) or doesnt get involve in the big discussions. and just views gta as the game you just shoot dudes in.

but looking at this thread where he commented, im also not ruling out that the dude was just being stupid here as he's clearly capable of conversation.

It's actually possible to scrutinize The Expendables. It being the revival on the '80s/'90s action silliness that so many of the actors taking part built their careers on, there's actually a lot that could be done with it, despite the simplicity of its premise and characters. Shit, I majored in Cinema Studies in college; I've spent a lot of time analyzing movies that are just as dumb and silly. If JouselDelka had no interest in discussing the topic of this thread, there was no reason for him to comment the way that he did.

#31 Edited by mrfluke (4834 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@mrfluke said:

@demoskinos said:

@mrfluke said:

@demoskinos said:

@mrfluke: Who cares though? If you want to enjoy GTA on surface level and shoot shit , steal cars and bang hookers you can do that. However, there are absolutely a myriad of themes permeating GTA V and I think the Hausers did a great job of making something that is absolutely worth picking apart with characters like Trevor that are as complex as anything ever portrayed on the silver screen. That is the genius of this game it doesn't directly assault you with these things but instead lets you pick everything apart on your own if you so choose.

im all for that and you are absolutely right. there are a ton of themes in this game, as gta at its core concept, strip the guns and cars away, is satire on american culture. i actually finished the game already and got some positive messaging/morals out of it (i know that sounds crazy)

my comment on "criticism!!11" was more towards picking this game apart for "misogyny" and "sexism". which to me, it just feels like these days every game is getting dissected for those two aspects.

For those two things sure, and those are the kind of social justice warriors who go actively searching for something to criticize. The Hausers have said I think even in the interview that they just did with Polygon that a female protag has always been something that has been floating around in the idea pool but they want to do it the right way with the right story. I think that is the right way to approach it.

yea it was an interview with the guardian, they said if the right story comes to mind they would be so down to do it and that gta 5 is more about the male masculinity (which having played through the game, that is very much a core underlying theme of the story)

and of course when that story hit, the social justice warriors came out to play and started complaining and started throwing out the words "misogyny" and "sexism" again.

ultimately my big worry of criticism is basically what cliffy b tweeted out a few days ago (he actually went back to being a chill dude now)

https://twitter.com/therealcliffyb/status/380800302884347904

https://twitter.com/therealcliffyb/status/380801303691403264

This has absolutely nothing to do with Phil Fish-style harrassment of developers. Analyzing aspects like the theme of masculinity in GTAV is not some threat to the Housers or an aggressive insult. If developers are so thin-skinned that they can't take a critical analysis of their work, then they really shouldn't be working in a creative field.

hey, ur genuinely one of my favorites here, your a good debater, but i think you should read what me and demoskinos were talking about. as i was talking more in general, and not specifically what this guy wrote.,

i know this has nothing to do with a phil fish style problem, and what this guy wrote here wont change nothing about gta or future gta's, and againt never said i had a issue specifically with what this guy wrote.

im talking more in general about the recent critical nature of some groups ( i should have just written what i wanted to say out instead of taking the copy paste route)

criticism is fine, what this guy wrote, totally fine,

what irks me is the excessive criticism some groups do, to where to me it just comes off as just utterly wanting to crucify a dev for X aspect of their product.

to what your saying about how if devs are so thin skinned they shouldnt be working in a creative field,

thats a real "iron fist" view, which i get it, even if i dont agree with it.

but i still believe (no matter how naive it is) that to me, there is a much tamer relationship between devs and fans that is possible.

#32 Posted by Hailinel (22670 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

@hailinel said:

@mrfluke said:

@demoskinos said:

@mrfluke said:

@demoskinos said:

@mrfluke: Who cares though? If you want to enjoy GTA on surface level and shoot shit , steal cars and bang hookers you can do that. However, there are absolutely a myriad of themes permeating GTA V and I think the Hausers did a great job of making something that is absolutely worth picking apart with characters like Trevor that are as complex as anything ever portrayed on the silver screen. That is the genius of this game it doesn't directly assault you with these things but instead lets you pick everything apart on your own if you so choose.

im all for that and you are absolutely right. there are a ton of themes in this game, as gta at its core concept, strip the guns and cars away, is satire on american culture. i actually finished the game already and got some positive messaging/morals out of it (i know that sounds crazy)

my comment on "criticism!!11" was more towards picking this game apart for "misogyny" and "sexism". which to me, it just feels like these days every game is getting dissected for those two aspects.

For those two things sure, and those are the kind of social justice warriors who go actively searching for something to criticize. The Hausers have said I think even in the interview that they just did with Polygon that a female protag has always been something that has been floating around in the idea pool but they want to do it the right way with the right story. I think that is the right way to approach it.

yea it was an interview with the guardian, they said if the right story comes to mind they would be so down to do it and that gta 5 is more about the male masculinity (which having played through the game, that is very much a core underlying theme of the story)

and of course when that story hit, the social justice warriors came out to play and started complaining and started throwing out the words "misogyny" and "sexism" again.

ultimately my big worry of criticism is basically what cliffy b tweeted out a few days ago (he actually went back to being a chill dude now)

https://twitter.com/therealcliffyb/status/380800302884347904

https://twitter.com/therealcliffyb/status/380801303691403264

This has absolutely nothing to do with Phil Fish-style harrassment of developers. Analyzing aspects like the theme of masculinity in GTAV is not some threat to the Housers or an aggressive insult. If developers are so thin-skinned that they can't take a critical analysis of their work, then they really shouldn't be working in a creative field.

hey, ur genuinely one of my favorites here, your a good debater, but i think you should read what me and demoskinos were talking about. as i was talking more in general, and not specifically what this guy wrote.,

i know this has nothing to do with a phil fish style problem, and what this guy wrote here wont change nothing about gta or future gta's, and againt never said i had a issue specifically with what this guy wrote.

im talking more in general about the recent critical nature of some groups ( i should have just written what i wanted to say out instead of taking the copy paste route)

criticism is fine, what this guy wrote, totally fine,

what irks me is the excessive criticism some groups do, to where to me it just comes off as just utterly wanting to crucify a dev for X aspect of their product.

to what your saying about how if devs are so thin skinned they shouldnt be working in a creative field,

thats a real "iron fist" view, which i get it, even if i dont agree with it.

but i still believe (no matter how naive it is) that to me, there is a much tamer relationship between devs and fans that is possible.

Hey, fair enough.

#33 Edited by mrfluke (4834 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@mrfluke said:

@hailinel said:

@mrfluke said:

yea the "whore massacring simulator" is a bit much, also doesnt help that the dude also hasn't returned to this thread either to clarify.

but hell, GTA, made over a billion dollars in 3 days, im willing to bet there are super casual people buying this game. and that this dude is one of those types.

this is just me (and you know what maybe im being too kind here) , but i think saying his comment = telling someone to shut up is a bit extreme though. and thats more you irritated with a juvenile comment. (which i get it, i know you like these discussions/debates when there is substance to them and nothing's wrong with that)

That's really not an excuse. GTA being a popular high seller with a large casual audience is not an excuse to berate the creator of this thread for analyzing the game. As irritated as I may be with his juvenile comment, said juvenile comment was made with the intent to shut down discussion.

unless the piece "would you scrutinize or review The Expendables? NO, you watch it go BOOM BOOM PEW BOOM and you either enjoy that shit or you don't". from his comment makes you think that the intent was to shut down discussion,

i really dont get how his comment = what your saying, to me it was just he's just saying the game is about mindless fun (obviously minus a civilized tone, but hey it is the internet)

but no snark though, if thats your interpretation of his comment, then thats your interpretation,

im just making the extrapolation that he might be one of those casual people that doesn't spend time on forums like you and i do (yes i know his post count) or doesnt get involve in the big discussions. and just views gta as the game you just shoot dudes in.

but looking at this thread where he commented, im also not ruling out that the dude was just being stupid here as he's clearly capable of conversation.

It's actually possible to scrutinize The Expendables. It being the revival on the '80s/'90s action silliness that so many of the actors taking part built their careers on, there's actually a lot that could be done with it, despite the simplicity of its premise and characters. Shit, I majored in Cinema Studies in college; I've spent a lot of time analyzing movies that are just as dumb and silly. If JouselDelka had no interest in discussing the topic of this thread, there was no reason for him to comment the way that he did.

and where did i say the expendables is not prone to scrutiny? i was using that user's analogy about the expendables and the snark about it gta being a "whore massacring simulator" to extrapolate that he basically views gta as a mindless fun open world game.

could i be wrong? absolutely.

#34 Posted by Hailinel (22670 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

@hailinel said:

@mrfluke said:

@hailinel said:

@mrfluke said:

yea the "whore massacring simulator" is a bit much, also doesnt help that the dude also hasn't returned to this thread either to clarify.

but hell, GTA, made over a billion dollars in 3 days, im willing to bet there are super casual people buying this game. and that this dude is one of those types.

this is just me (and you know what maybe im being too kind here) , but i think saying his comment = telling someone to shut up is a bit extreme though. and thats more you irritated with a juvenile comment. (which i get it, i know you like these discussions/debates when there is substance to them and nothing's wrong with that)

That's really not an excuse. GTA being a popular high seller with a large casual audience is not an excuse to berate the creator of this thread for analyzing the game. As irritated as I may be with his juvenile comment, said juvenile comment was made with the intent to shut down discussion.

unless the piece "would you scrutinize or review The Expendables? NO, you watch it go BOOM BOOM PEW BOOM and you either enjoy that shit or you don't". from his comment makes you think that the intent was to shut down discussion,

i really dont get how his comment = what your saying, to me it was just he's just saying the game is about mindless fun (obviously minus a civilized tone, but hey it is the internet)

but no snark though, if thats your interpretation of his comment, then thats your interpretation,

im just making the extrapolation that he might be one of those casual people that doesn't spend time on forums like you and i do (yes i know his post count) or doesnt get involve in the big discussions. and just views gta as the game you just shoot dudes in.

but looking at this thread where he commented, im also not ruling out that the dude was just being stupid here as he's clearly capable of conversation.

It's actually possible to scrutinize The Expendables. It being the revival on the '80s/'90s action silliness that so many of the actors taking part built their careers on, there's actually a lot that could be done with it, despite the simplicity of its premise and characters. Shit, I majored in Cinema Studies in college; I've spent a lot of time analyzing movies that are just as dumb and silly. If JouselDelka had no interest in discussing the topic of this thread, there was no reason for him to comment the way that he did.

and where did i say the expendables is not prone to scrutiny? i was using that user's analogy about the expendables and the snark about it gta being a "whore massacring simulator" to extrapolate that he basically views gta as a mindless fun open world game.

could i be wrong? absolutely.

I wasn't referring to your opinion specifically, but the initial insinuation that GTAV is like The Expendables and thus exempt from criticism.

#35 Posted by GaspoweR (2506 posts) -

Also @librariangmr: Very insightful thoughts about Michael by the way. Also personally I don't think Michael's masculinity is being threatened as much as he is just an individual who just wants to have a normal family and a family that also loves him back but at the same time he is just having trouble with how he is supposed to convey that kind of love to his family considering his past being a bank robber thus his skills haven't really prepared him for the role of being a dad and husaband in the first place.

#36 Posted by librariangmr (172 posts) -

@gaspower: yeah, he's definitely struggling because he hasn't had the time to properly bond with his family. He's trying to rush through but that only makes things worse.

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