I'm not particularly familiar with Faust and I'm quickly realizing we're veering off into a different discussion entirely, but are you talking about its wider religious themes or there something cultural I might be missing?

Nobody is crying for censorship here. Rockstar, Tarantino, et al are free to write what they wish, but have to face the repercussions of their work.

You guys want all the validation that comes with games being regarded as art, but none of the critique or discussion.

But in disagreeing with you, aren't they taking part in the discussion?

Nice concession.

Yeah and you'll often find the kind of vitriol around feminist discussion of media (particularly games) in other forms of critique, such as:

I don't think they give a shit about gender politics either, unless they are mocking people like to talk about them.

I suppose the alternative is that they put in a joke without thinking too much about how it would come over. And that meant that the very first time you got to play as a female character in GTA (unless you could be one in 4, and was there one in 2? - but anyway :) ) some shithead makes a pass at you in the opening few lines. To me that seems to say a whole lot about the mindset of GTA, but maybe that was the point - it which case they did do it on purpose. Ah Ha!

I'm not saying I am right here, and I may be overthinking things, but I suppose I am asking, when is it OK for me to join the dots? When can I link the groping stripper minigame, the awful screechy,repressed, unattractive female characters, the prostitute murdering and this incident and posit that they say something about the perspective GTA is written from? Or should they all be viewed as independent from each other, irrelevant to the whole?

I am continually torn between thinking this is GTA, eeeveryone gets it in the neck, and then feeling that women get an especially rough ride. Or thinking this is GTA, it is just a big crude mess of everything they can fit in with no plan or point of view, to my knowledge that these are some of the smartest, most talented, creative minds in the business and this thing is planned down to the last pixel in a strippers g-string.

To me there is this constant feeling that this game doesn't take women seriously, that it doesn't want to devote the time and depth it is prepared to give to the male characters, where even Trevor, an out and out psycho, is given nuance and attractive features. I've rowed back on calling it sexist, that word stirs up so much angst that I would rather just say what I see rather than give it a name. This 'joke' or whatever it is just seems indicative of the rest of their attitude, so much so that I find it hard to view in isolation. If the rest of the game was somewhat different I would be more than prepared to, but I suppose I can't help but join the dots.

Anyway I want to do one more mission before I crash out ( I want to finish it because I have heard that some of the women become a bit more rounded towards the end so I will be interested to see if my viewpoint changes - oh, and it is fucking great), so I won't be able to reply to you again this evening, but I would be interested to hear what you have to say.

I was listening to the first Breaking Bad Insider Podcast today and listened as Vince Gilligan explained how every scene needs to have a point and if it doesn't it needs to be cut because a pointless scene is a waste of time. It seems to me that, if we assume Lamar trying to go grabbing on your lady was nothing but a joke then that whole scene is pointless and could be summed up "A comedy character gives you a gun and forces you into a race mission." If you want to say the scene is meaningless and didn't have anything to say then the scene was meaningless and didn't have anything to say. The online could've safely started with you pulling up to the race without the scene at the airport. Hell, then you wouldn't need the "guy (who is he?) brings you a car" scene that happens during the loading screen as well. Conversely if it does have a point it isn't really a very good one is it? Women have to deal with some bullshit whereas men just get respect right out the gate. I guess it's realistically true but that doesn't make it better.

It was a moment that made me go "Oh man, Uncle GTA's at it again! Just when I thought I was pulling one over on him too!" It's either that, poor writing or, most likely, a combination of both. I doubt Uncle GTA is really all that self aware. Also, speaking of Uncle GTA, after watching the livestream and reading a recent tweet from Jeff Gerstmann the Online just sounds straight up bad. I don't want to play a GTA I have to take seriously in which I can't steal cars and I lose everything and then some when I die. That doesn't sound pleasant at all. Seems like the whole Online aspect is poorly made, not just the intro.

It all works out because I just bought Wind Waker HD anyway. Plus it's much easier to talk about Wind Waker without eliciting controversy. No one ever responded to the critique "the bloom is way more aggressive than it was in the Gamecube version, wow" with "You don't understand the sky's character. He has the fucking sun in him, of course he's bright" or "damn HDR types, why do they have to make a big deal out of nothing? The sky is bright. Put on sunglasses then." Plus Wind Waker is fun.

You know, in between the passive homophobia, shockingly-casual transphobia, misogyny, and general repression of anything other than what a 13 y/o might relate to in a Call of Duty game... Rockstar make some pretty mature games u guyz.

Not everything present in GTA 5 or modern culture is made a victim of, this is called a design choice. They very blatantly made another-one-of-those tailored for their demographic of insecure kids.

You do realize that one of the characters was designed to represent the same shitty stereotypes you're claiming they're catering to, right?

@greggd: You say that like it makes all the other hateful "satire" go away.

No, I'm saying they're not catering to anyone. They're making digs at everyone. Like, seriously. That is the GTA M.O. at this point. Have you ever even played any of the previous games?

feminazis oppressing and censoring rockstars genius satire, including; an asian-speaking man's subtitles reading like stereotypical broken english

have you even PLAYED the games, outsider?

Guys, I wonder how everyone will react to South Park: The Stick of Truth? I'm guessing it'll be absolutely fucking HATED due to the way the gaming community is heading 'morally'.

Nah just kidding, everyone thinks it looks fucking awesome.

Hypocrites, everywhere.

@themasterds you do realize that Grand Theft Auto is the CSI of video games, not The Wire or Breaking Bad, right? These have never been games with salient points or subtle critiques. These are games with big guns, big bombs, big breasts and big bales of cash. They aren't meant to come wrapped in neat, contextual endings. They're meant to start and end vaguely, to give the idea of a world that exists even when you aren't there. It's been written about this series often since the release of GTA IV but the city is the main character of GTA games, not the people themselves. None of the "people" are meant to be people, merely archetypes and stereotypes cranked out by a city founded on corruption and capitalism.

Wastes of screen time are often when GTA is working at its most magical; San Andreas' CJ had no reason to invade Area 51 and steal that jetpack in the grand scheme of things, Tommy Vercetti really had no business delivering $10 pizzas in Vice City and Claude was a fool to think he could ever fly that no-winged Dodo without any proper flight training.

I'd be interested to hear your take on an hour of Opie & Anthony where they have both Jim Norton and Patrice O'Neal on. Or any of the various internet skits and Boondocks material Slinky Johnson (the actor behind Lamar) has been involved in over the years. Have you seen Black Jesus? What's your reaction to that? This is off-topic, it's just a part of me wonders if you're missing the forest for the trees on this. I get that you feel bad for women (many of whom seem to report not being put off by the scene) being subjected to this scene while the male character isn't objectified (even though he is, as Lamar is just as quick to comment on the male's physical attributes as the female's in a negative/joking fashion) in his, but I feel like you're taking this argument to an illogical extreme of "please don't make jokes in video games, not when someone could get upset".

Have you ever dealt with someone like Lamar in your life? Are you asking that video games please leave those folks out of the medium so as to understand video games are not to played by gangbanging, face-tatted, strip club addicted misogynists?

I feel like I'd understand how this event makes some people so upset a lot better if it occurred in the first five minutes of Animal Crossing or Mario Galaxy. But Grand Theft Auto, the digital equivalent of a Tarentino movie? It's going to be seedy, it's going to be dirty, it's going to be sensational. And I'm sure MOST female gamers are fine with this; I know most of the girls I know with GTA5 experience absolutely love Lamar and wish there was more of him.

@greggd: I haven't actually. GTAV is the first game in the series I've played any serious amount of. Does that make my opinion less valid that I haven't been a lifelong fan of the series?

It would give you a better context, for sure. And yeah, if you're coming into GTA expecting it not to do what it does, you're terribly misinformed. Or ignorant, if not willfully.

Jesus Christ, the game isn't even out yet so nobody knows enough about it to criticize it, and you're only assuming people expressing concern over other games hypocritically like this game.

South Park has some seriously problematic stuff (Mr Garrison's Fancy New Vagina and a lot of the older stuff spring to mind) but on the whole it's leaps and bounds more thoughtful and intelligent than any of Rockstar shotgun "satire".

@hashy said:

I don't think you quite understood what I meant.

I need a new hobby. Like books or painting or something.

You are either giving GTA too much credit or Tarantino too little credit. The difference is Tarantino is an artist whereas the guys who make GTA are not artists. Not when it comes to their comic relief anyway. I would liken GTA more to Transformers only coherent and the main characters manage to be likable. So a lot better than Transfomers on the whole but if you're going to go comparing it to Jackie Brown I gotta tell you naw son.

Oh, also, as for South Park (and, let's bring Always Sunny in) I love em! You know why? Because they're actually funny and they hit more than they miss! In Always Sunny a girl gets Waterboarded in a Urinal. It's an absurd situation in Always Sunny matched with sharp writing. In GTA it's not a joke, it's just something that happens. And then the "Torture is actually really dumb" point is hammered into your face by Trevor explaining it straight up. In Sunny they made the same point but they didn't just say it. They showed it and made it a running joke that any information Frank said he got through waterboarding was completely wrong. In GTA they just said it. They told instead of showed. Additionally they contradicted the moral by confirming on the radio the guy you killed what the Armenian the torture victim was referring to. So the torture worked in GTA. Nice "satire" guys.

Are you 13, or something?

You missed a key part of all that. The torture victim kept saying that he knew everything, and they just had to ask him. The torture was unnecessary, but the FIB overseer was a total asshole and was pretty much making sure that the guy got tortured, regardless of what he gave them.

I like this post.

If your argument is now coming down to "I don't think GTA is funny!".... well..... great? A lot of people do. I think Rockstar's dialogue is absolutely brilliant, witty, and funny. Cool. Go play or watch something else that does the same "offensive" things but is okay I guess because you find it funny.

@hashy: I just want to know something. Why do you still say owned?

Ironically, I had typed Bay before going back and typing Tarentino. You not considering the men and women (note that a woman managed the cutscene production according to the credits) behind Grand Theft Auto artists does reveal a little about why you feel the way you do about this, though.

I agree with you that those shows are funny but I disagree that you finding those shows funny means you're allowed to call GTA unfunny because it didn't make you laugh. Some people can laugh at Always Sunny and at Two and a Half Men. Some people can't laugh at Always Sunny and can laugh at Two and a Half Men. That's why both programs exist. I also think you're missing the point of the scene if you expected "satire", more than anything it was just supposed to make you hate Steve Haines and the government. Again, you can disagree with Grand Theft Auto for being sensational but you can't disagree with GTA because it's sensational and you didn't expect that.

It's like complaining about Avatar because it's in 3D to me. The sensational stuff is the reason the whole game exists, so labeling that the problem is labeling the entire premise of the game a problem. And then you're having a different conversation that has very little to do with what Lamar says to Female Avatar X during the opening minutes of Grand Theft Auto Online.

I believe it's called having a discussion. Saying "go play something you like" is not a valid response. I like GTA V. It's a ton of fun and they've built probably the most amazing world I've ever seen in a game. But I also think that the writing is, for the most part, really dated and unfunny. There are some genuinely funny moments, for sure but their attempts at satire mostly fall flat.

I can like some parts of a game and dislike other parts. There can be a middle ground between "GTA V is the most brilliant game ever made" and "GTA V is shit."

I'm talking about this thread's topic, which is now completely off the rails talking about the writing quality. I like the writing and just don't really care if some don't, that's fine. Did this song and dance with Max Payne 3 already.

The thread is about being offended by the female opening to GTA O. There are plenty of similar things in South Park or Always Sunny but I guess those are okay because OP finds them funny.

@hashy said:

You're easily a top candidate of how the quality of the community has taken a dive.

But come on, man. He owned you! Doesn't that mean anything anymore?

@artisanbreads: Well, this thread sucks as clearly evident by the discussion surrounding this post and I don't really care at all about the female intro to GTA Online. I was just commenting on what you were saying. And the point isn't entirely that Always Sunny is funny and GTA isn't, though that is part of it. It's that the satire is delivered in a more concise way, which in turns makes it funnier.

I actually think the torture scene is the best "satire" in the entire game. It's a shame that the scene that follows so obviously and uninterestingly (not a word, don't care) hammers home its point.

@GrantHeaslip If you haven't seen a lot of GTA5 you don't know the half of its problems with representation of women. You're right that there's a streak of what you call "performance activism" in online discussion, certainly in anyone with the patience to participate in forums like these, but you can't fault people for discussing issues in the games on everyone's minds. The profound disingenuousness you presented those examples with does little to make me empathize with your view and is either ignorant or intentionally dismissive of the depth of insight in some of the long-form discussion we've seen recently.

Sometimes pwned is too strong a word.

@artisanbreads: Not just funny, but well written and masterfully crafted as well. Look at the comparison of styles between Always Sunny and GTA again more closely this time. One hammers you over the head with the point really heavy handedly and other gets the same point across by creating an absurd scenario and tight writing which explores the touchy subject matter expertly. It's not just about humor, it's about craft and effort.

I agree on the torture scene for what it's worth. I can almost guarantee the end was added in as an attempt to hammer home some some anti-torture message to dodge some controversy.

I saw your post in the other thread and found it an interesting way to think about the game.... I did enjoy the end but had a similar feeling of and what changed here? I kind of wish there was more of an inevitable Michael Trevor collision course but oh well. I was thinking Trevor was going to go to break Brad out of jail and then find it empty and it was going to be an undodgable Trevor vs Michael fight, which would've sucked because I like both but it would've had a good impact.

Rockstar games usually have some plot stumblings I find but dialogue wise they are the absolute best to me and always nail a bunch of other moments throughout. Just my 2 cents.

Didn't mean to sounds dismissive of a dialogue it's just how the debate turned with the OP was rather ridiculous.

Read above.

Also, my point is you only find things offensive if you don't like the writing I guess, which is hilarious and silly. Have fun being offended I guess.

Sometimes people use words ironically.

Boy, I'm glad you're here to balance me out--like how you replied to me with an effective "uh thats not what i said dumbass" instead of explaining or extrapolating on your argument

Haha, no. That dialogue was included so they could feel that they're ahead of any possible critique and could intellectually hide behind its pretenses. It's pretty transparent. The GTA team don't want to avoid controversy. They live for the controversy.

Since when did female characters getting hit on amount to sexism? I think people are taking this sexism stuff a little too far.

To focus on a specific point because I'm stuck typing on a tablet then, who of note has said Spelunky was sexist for including damsels? Anita Sarkeesian's argument was and always has been on the problematic nature of common storytelling devices (I'm starting to resent the word trope), and encouraging the industry to recognize and avoid them. Nobody could accuse the game that included the incredible diversity in Spelunky HD of being wholly sexist, only of initially (and in canon/marketing) relying on problematic and sexist "tropes".

I don't get it either. Lamar acting like a pig means women aren't portrayed poorly? What?

Wow. Jackie Brown? The movie with a female character that has almost no personality aside from being a pothead, fucks a complete stranger who's her sort-of boyfriend's friend because she's bored, is generally insulted by every man she knows, and is randomly shot dead in the end?

Now, I think Jackie Brown is a masterpiece, but if you're saying Jackie Brown is "Art", but a character In GTAO propositioning a lady for sex and getting turned down is bothersome, I just can't take this argument seriously anymore.

As I sad before in this thread, you're absolutely entitled to any reaction you had. But trying to apply one's emotional reaction to something as criticism is simply invalid. You don't like it, cool. But that has zero to do with the quality of the thing itself.

I'm glad that the video game community is now so militant about perceived sexism that when something really egregious comes along in the future and needs to be addressed, people will most likely not pay attention to it because they are so fucking tired of hearing about it.

You know. It's really disappointing that the most active thread for the biggest game currently is about a really mild, innocent joke introduction scene and blowing that way out of proportion.

Fuck actually talking about the game. Lets ramble on about pointless bullshit in a really mild scene. Hell i don't think GTA5 is sexist, but if you wanted to make that argument there are like at least a dozen better things you could use as your example. Theres a god damn minigame where you feel up strippers during a lap dance. You brutally torture a guy with various torture mini-games. Theres complex multiple path heist missions that can have multiple outcomes. Yet the most active thread here is discussing the ethics of a dude making a pass at a chick and being shut down and politely accepting the rejection. SEXISM GUYS!

The fuck is wrong with you people?

People would probably have more to say about the online portion of GTAV if it was actually playable by more than a tiny fraction of the player-base. At this point, people are lucky if they even get to the point that Lamar hits on them.

Yes this complex and diverse social movement is surely going to fall victim to "Boy Who Cried Wolf" syndrome and now something truly horrible will slip through the cracks. Why are feminists so emotional?

@hailinel: Well yeah, thats the only reason i ducked back into this thread, i came to the GTAV forum to check if people were reporting if online was up or not. I was shocked this thread had this many replies.

You're showing your colours too early in your appeal to moderation.