So I picked a Female GTA Online Character

This topic is locked from further discussion.

#251 Edited by TruthTellah (7641 posts) -

@clonedzero said:

You know. It's really disappointing that the most active thread for the biggest game currently is about a really mild, innocent joke introduction scene and blowing that way out of proportion.

Fuck actually talking about the game. Lets ramble on about pointless bullshit in a really mild scene. Hell i don't think GTA5 is sexist, but if you wanted to make that argument there are like at least a dozen better things you could use as your example. Theres a god damn minigame where you feel up strippers during a lap dance. You brutally torture a guy with various torture mini-games. Theres complex multiple path heist missions that can have multiple outcomes. Yet the most active thread here is discussing the ethics of a dude making a pass at a chick and being shut down and politely accepting the rejection. SEXISM GUYS!

The fuck is wrong with you people?

To be fair, I think 3/4 of the comments are just people arguing that it's fine and we shouldn't even be talking about it. It seems like the hubbub is more that anyone might bring it up as a possible issue than tons of people making a bigger deal out of it than it is.

Personally, I think it's a reasonable little topic, but as you said, it's probably one of the lesser areas of potentially problematic content in the game. It does strike me as a bit odd considering the kerfuffle around there being no female lead, as I figured Rockstar would maybe be a little more careful with the addition of a female character. Still, this interaction in the intro seems rather mild to me, but I'm not everyone. I would definitely agree with you that it pales in comparison to the many more potentially questionable elements of the game.

I think the game is pretty great, but I can see how there may be some genuine areas for criticism.

#252 Posted by Hailinel (22704 posts) -
#253 Posted by GrantHeaslip (1355 posts) -

@hashy said:

You're showing your colours too early.

Well, am I wrong? I'm not saying that redefining words makes feminism invalid, just that it's an aspect of feminism that makes any kind of semantic conversation really tiresome.

I'll also point out that this is the second time in a row you've made a minor nitpick rather than actually respond to me.

#255 Posted by joshwent (1778 posts) -

@hashy said:

Listen, feminists. You should probably simmer down and mediate your arguments until the rest of us can catch up. If you think a game is profoundly misogynistic please carefully rephrase your argument so as to avoid stirring controversy. If you think it's problematic that choosing a female character necessitates being preyed upon please actually don't say anything at all lest you make mountains out of molehills.

And stop redefining words as you are prone to do, for example:

These kinds of posts are exactly how threads like this disintegrate. It's rare to be able to pinpoint it, so I couldn't help but point it out.

You put obviously exaggerated words in someone's mouth. Then they feel attacked and start to defend themselves. Then you're all just arguing about each other, and the topic (as well as any meaningful discussion) is totally destroyed.

I'm sure you may have some meaningful things to add, but please, not with this nonsense.

#256 Edited by Darji (5295 posts) -

@hashy: sorry for the late answer but I was sleeping.^^

As for Faust: Yes for example but there is also a lot of sexism in it as well in Germany it is still used for controversial discussions in school. Also many classics are about incest, pedophilia, oidipuskomplex religion and so on. They are ale classics because they are breaking bars and still have a controversial meaning even today. But it is ok for books and movies but it is still not ok for videogames. WE can have great discussions but there is really not much to discuss. How many people who are complaining have even watched this scene?

What is so"offensive" here? The fact that some guy is hitting on a woman he picked up from an airport and who totally gets rejected and is made fun of? How is this a male powerfantasy as you have said it yourself when the male is coming out as an idiot and dumb and the women strong and independent? This is the part I really don't understand.

As for Southpark: I never thought Southpark is funny. I think it is dumb, vulgar and stupid and only interesting for 12 years old but it is something that has the right to exist just like anything else no matter how offensive it is for some people.

#257 Posted by Nautilus1515 (51 posts) -

I chose a female char, just cause I felt like it. My wife wanted me to model the character after her in the game. That was my reason for picking one anyway.

#258 Posted by TruthTellah (7641 posts) -

@hashy: Come on, Hashy. I know you don't like some of GrantHeaslip's replies, but you don't need to just lampoon his replies. You may feel that there are serious issues with what he's saying, but in general, it's against the rules to mock someone repeatedly. If his replies have flaws, please either ignore him or explain to him why he is mistaken.

Some of us do think there may be something problematic about how this intro was handled, but you being a jerk to other users and mocking others' replies isn't helping us explain why there may be a problem here. If you think they're being a jerk to you in their responses, then flag their posts or contact the mods, but being a jerk back is only going to make this thread even worse than it already is.

#259 Edited by Hashy (81 posts) -

Darji, it was a mistake to ever fall into this line of discussion so I cut it off early but the difference between classical literature that explores morally difficult material is that it actually EXPLORES it. Lolita is a tremendously complex portrayal of sexuality that's worthy of the experience, not a cheap punchline--and encouraging authors to recognize the damage their work does in public discussion (such as Feminist Frequency's work) is not "censorship".

@joshwent said:

You put obviously exaggerated words in someone's mouth. Then they feel attacked and start to defend themselves. Then you're all just arguing about each other, and the topic (as well as any meaningful discussion) is totally destroyed.

Are you honestly going to accuse me of this in this very thread? Have you been following it? The first (and very nearly only) people to bring up "sexism" or "offensive" were from those acting on the defense, and it's pretty much been a constant barrage "ugh social justice warriors" eyerolling and misrepresentation of the argument since.

The thread has long been disintegrated

#260 Posted by Hailinel (22704 posts) -

@hashy said:

Darji, it was a mistake to ever fall into this line of discussion so I cut it off early but the difference between classical literature that explores morally difficult material is that it actually EXPLORES it. Lolita is a tremendously complex portrayal of sexuality that's worthy of the experience, not a cheap punchline--and encouraging authors to recognize the damage their work does in public discussion (such as Feminist Frequency's work) is not "censorship".

@joshwent said:

You put obviously exaggerated words in someone's mouth. Then they feel attacked and start to defend themselves. Then you're all just arguing about each other, and the topic (as well as any meaningful discussion) is totally destroyed.

Are you honestly going to accuse me of this in this very thread? Have you been following it? The first (and very nearly only) people to bring up "sexism" or "offensive" were from those acting on the defense, and it's pretty much been a constant barrage "ugh social justice warriors" eyerolling and misrepresentation of the argument since.

The thread has long been disintegrated

There is no reason to further encourage the disintegration, if that's what you believe. If you feel that a poster is being disruptive, flag them and/or contact moderators and refrain from responding any further. And if you feel that you must respond, do so in a way that doesn't encourage or exacerbate the disruption already present.

#261 Edited by Darji (5295 posts) -

@hashy said:

Darji, it was a mistake to ever fall into this line of discussion so I cut it off early but the difference between classical literature that explores morally difficult material is that it actually EXPLORES it. Lolita is a tremendously complex portrayal of sexuality that's worthy of the experience, not a cheap punchline--and encouraging authors to recognize the damage their work does in public discussion (such as Feminist Frequency's work) is not "censorship".

@joshwent said:

You put obviously exaggerated words in someone's mouth. Then they feel attacked and start to defend themselves. Then you're all just arguing about each other, and the topic (as well as any meaningful discussion) is totally destroyed.

Are you honestly going to accuse me of this in this very thread? Have you been following it? The first (and very nearly only) people to bring up "sexism" or "offensive" were from those acting on the defense, and it's pretty much been a constant barrage "ugh social justice warriors" eyerolling and misrepresentation of the argument since.

The thread has long since dissolved.

I would disagree here, You can make anything look complex and in school your are doing interpretations of every single scene so you have to find something and you tend to over analyse stuff and if you do that you can find in anything something bad and controversial. for example if I go into a movie like E.T. (the first movie that came into my mind) and over analyze it I am pretty sure I can take out something sexist, racist an otherwise offensive If I want to.

GTA is a piece of entertainment. it is a satire of the american way of life and that is how life is. How many men or women had this kind of encounter already? You are friends on the internet you decide to meet and someone has misunderstood your "relationship" it is a total normal thing and in GTAV it is made fun of but not of the cost of the woman but rather the man. So you could even argue that it is an anti statement of this industry in terms of treating women in videogames.

Oh and Feminist Frequency is a terrible argument. She over analyzes everything unti it fits her agenda. Like her opinion on True Grit or the worst one the top 5 creepiest Christmas songs when she implies rape and drugging the women.....

#262 Posted by Hashy (81 posts) -

When you make an argument against the status quo on a forum and put up with the disjointed retorts from every angle you should be entitled to the same catharsis your opposition enjoyed at your expense.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Anita was spot the fuck on about "Baby it's cold outside".

*quietly fills "It's just entertainment!" square on media critique bingo card*

#263 Posted by ArtisanBreads (3595 posts) -

Are these Hashy posts being run through Google Translate before they're posted?

#264 Posted by Hashy (81 posts) -

Hailinel, please tell ArtisanBreads here about forum etiquette just like you told everyone on the other side of the fence earlier in the thread before telling me.

Hailinel?

#265 Edited by TruthTellah (7641 posts) -

@hashy said:

When you make an argument against the status quo on a forum and put up with the disjointed retorts from every angle you should be entitled to the same catharsis your opposition enjoyed at your expense.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Anita was spot the fuck on about "Baby it's cold outside".

*quietly fills "It's just entertainment!" square on media critique bingo card*

You may feel that way, but it doesn't make it right. Even those people are beholden to the rules, and the mods can decide on whether they stepped out of line. You responding in kind only makes things worse. I actually agree with some of your main points, but you're making it very difficult to support you when you're emulating the worst in other commenters.

Some of us want to actually discuss this regardless of how crappy this thread has been, and just because it may seem like a lost cause to you doesn't mean I or anyone else appreciates you acting so carelessly.

#266 Posted by joshwent (1778 posts) -

@hashy said:

Hailinel, please tell ArtisanBreads here about forum etiquette just like you told everyone on the other side of the fence earlier in the thread before telling me.

Hailinel?

So...

Then you're all just arguing about each other, and the topic (as well as any meaningful discussion) is totally destroyed.

I wish I wasn't right.

Next thread, let's try to have a real conversation.

#267 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3595 posts) -

The topic went sideways because the foundation was a joke to begin with. Being offended by this scene is such a reach it almost seems like someone making a parody of the "game feminism" movement.

These threads tend to anyways, I suppose, but this is probably the silliest one I've seen.

#268 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3325 posts) -

The topic went sideways because the foundation was a joke to begin with. Being offended by this scene is such a reach it almost seems like someone making a parody of the "game feminism" movement.

And there you go.

"If you want to combat entrenched gender issues and raise awareness then the single most important thing to do is not undermine your own argument by going after everything in sight and inevitably finding something to be outraged about wherever you look. This is in large part why the stereotypical internet feminist blogger has no credibility whatsoever: everything is problematic behavior and male privilege."

NeoGAF owner EviLore, replying to the suggestion that a Battlefield 4 female soldier design was an inappropriate representation of a female solider.

#270 Posted by Darji (5295 posts) -

@artisanbreads said:

The topic went sideways because the foundation was a joke to begin with. Being offended by this scene is such a reach it almost seems like someone making a parody of the "game feminism" movement.

And there you go.

"If you want to combat entrenched gender issues and raise awareness then the single most important thing to do is not undermine your own argument by going after everything in sight and inevitably finding something to be outraged about wherever you look. This is in large part why the stereotypical internet feminist blogger has no credibility whatsoever: everything is problematic behavior and male privilege."

NeoGAF owner EviLore, replying to the suggestion that a Battlefield 4 female soldier design was an inappropriate representation of a female solider.

totally agree. Also Why was the BF4 female soldier design inappropriate? Because she was Asian?

#271 Edited by GreggD (4442 posts) -

@darji said:

@spaceinsomniac said:

@artisanbreads said:

The topic went sideways because the foundation was a joke to begin with. Being offended by this scene is such a reach it almost seems like someone making a parody of the "game feminism" movement.

And there you go.

"If you want to combat entrenched gender issues and raise awareness then the single most important thing to do is not undermine your own argument by going after everything in sight and inevitably finding something to be outraged about wherever you look. This is in large part why the stereotypical internet feminist blogger has no credibility whatsoever: everything is problematic behavior and male privilege."

NeoGAF owner EviLore, replying to the suggestion that a Battlefield 4 female soldier design was an inappropriate representation of a female solider.

totally agree. Also Why was the BF4 female soldier design inappropriate? Because she was Asian?

I heard a few people throwing around the concept of her being "too pretty", and a lot of conjecture about her possibly being a damsel in distress waiting to happen.

#272 Posted by Hashy (81 posts) -

Let's just guess what the original argument was and form our opinions against that.

#273 Edited by GreggD (4442 posts) -

@hashy said:

Let's just guess what the original argument was and form our opinions against that.

That's not a guess, per se. Sure, for the GAF topic, but that was a lot of the discussion that I saw floating around forums.

#274 Edited by Darji (5295 posts) -

@greggd said:

@darji said:

@spaceinsomniac said:

@artisanbreads said:

The topic went sideways because the foundation was a joke to begin with. Being offended by this scene is such a reach it almost seems like someone making a parody of the "game feminism" movement.

And there you go.

"If you want to combat entrenched gender issues and raise awareness then the single most important thing to do is not undermine your own argument by going after everything in sight and inevitably finding something to be outraged about wherever you look. This is in large part why the stereotypical internet feminist blogger has no credibility whatsoever: everything is problematic behavior and male privilege."

NeoGAF owner EviLore, replying to the suggestion that a Battlefield 4 female soldier design was an inappropriate representation of a female solider.

totally agree. Also Why was the BF4 female soldier design inappropriate? Because she was Asian?

I heard a few people throwing around the concept of her being "too pretty", and a lot of conjecture about her possibly being a damsel in distress waiting to happen.

Oh I see so basically Quiet from MGSV with "appropriate" clothes on. You really can not win^^

but yeah guess we are done here..

#275 Edited by SpaceInsomniac (3325 posts) -

@greggd said:

@darji said:

@spaceinsomniac said:

@artisanbreads said:

The topic went sideways because the foundation was a joke to begin with. Being offended by this scene is such a reach it almost seems like someone making a parody of the "game feminism" movement.

And there you go.

"If you want to combat entrenched gender issues and raise awareness then the single most important thing to do is not undermine your own argument by going after everything in sight and inevitably finding something to be outraged about wherever you look. This is in large part why the stereotypical internet feminist blogger has no credibility whatsoever: everything is problematic behavior and male privilege."

NeoGAF owner EviLore, replying to the suggestion that a Battlefield 4 female soldier design was an inappropriate representation of a female solider.

totally agree. Also Why was the BF4 female soldier design inappropriate? Because she was Asian?

I heard a few people throwing around the concept of her being "too pretty", and a lot of conjecture about her possibly being a damsel in distress waiting to happen.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=641871&page=7

Post 433 is the EviLore quote. You can see the rest of people's arguments from the thread. The topic in question starts at post 310.

#276 Posted by GreggD (4442 posts) -
#277 Posted by TruthTellah (7641 posts) -

@greggd said:

said:

@spaceinsomniac said:

@artisanbreads said:

The topic went sideways because the foundation was a joke to begin with. Being offended by this scene is such a reach it almost seems like someone making a parody of the "game feminism" movement.

And there you go.

"If you want to combat entrenched gender issues and raise awareness then the single most important thing to do is not undermine your own argument by going after everything in sight and inevitably finding something to be outraged about wherever you look. This is in large part why the stereotypical internet feminist blogger has no credibility whatsoever: everything is problematic behavior and male privilege."

NeoGAF owner EviLore, replying to the suggestion that a Battlefield 4 female soldier design was an inappropriate representation of a female solider.

totally agree. Also Why was the BF4 female soldier design inappropriate? Because she was Asian?

I heard a few people throwing around the concept of her being "too pretty", and a lot of conjecture about her possibly being a damsel in distress waiting to happen.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=641871&page=7

Post 433 is the EviLore quote. You can see the rest of people's arguments from the thread. The topic in question starts at post 310.

I'm pretty certain the thing anyone found odd about her design was that she seemed to be the only one without more significant armor, and some people read into a comment her character makes about desiring backup, not because she was too pretty. It was certainly not even in the same ballpark as the whole Quiet thing.

#278 Edited by Hashy (81 posts) -

The original argument is basically that the only female character is the only character without big heavy flak jacket looking body armour, which might be a bit dumb but is apparently justified by her home nation's army-issue equipment or something. The only people that made a deal about it are apparently DICE themselves by inviting Anita Sarkeesian to speak and the losers that hang on her every action trying to trip her up. She's still one of the best designed female character designs in mainstream blockbuster videogames. The entire reason for Evilore's quote is some poor fucker asking "Why is she the only one without a heavy jacket" and the fallout from a bunch of people jumping down his throat.

It's literally about a small overblown argument over an innocuous question on one of the worst forums on the internet. Mountains out of molehills indeed

#279 Posted by GreggD (4442 posts) -

Well, her lack of armor is part of the role she plays. Knowing DICE, she's a scout/sniper, based on her attire and equipment. The 'Recon' class in the BF games look very similar to her, but they're men. Also it was raining, and she was wearing a parka, wasn't she? So we're not entirely sure on what she was wearing underneath it, are we?

#280 Edited by Sweep (8541 posts) -

I think this has devolved to the point where any conversation is unproductive. There are several users here who should refrain from stating their opinions so aggressively, and several others who should refrain from antagonising them.

You know who you are. So do we.

Moderator

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