Was Trevor's first kill too far? (spoilers)

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#51 Edited by firecracker22 (553 posts) -

I don't think it was too far, but it sure as shit was crazy to see. I mean, aside from banging Ashley (even though in TLAD it's stated she'd sleep with anyone)...it was kinda crazy to see how far down Johnny K had fallen. By the end of TLAD, I'd honestly thought he'd cut off Ashley from his life. But, he wound up an addict...and dead because of her. I liked Johnny K., so seeing that aspect (aside from Trevor unleashing the beast on his skull) was really unexpected. I was a little surprised The Lost even still existed, with the ending in the DLC. The Lost MC never struck me as a good group anyway. I mean from start to finish, in the DLC, they seemed like the opposite of what a good MC ought to be, not even close to the unity of something like SAMCRO. So, the MC getting trashed and basically decimated entirely at the hands of Trevor wasn't so far out to me. But, Johnny going out like a punk...yeah...that was pretty sad.

Killing Trevor and Clay, brother in arms to Johnny in TLAD, was also something else that kinda had me stunned.

#52 Edited by ThePhantomnaut (6201 posts) -

I guess that's what happens when you stick with Ash.

@firecracker22 said:

Killing Trevor and Clay, brother in arms to Johnny in TLAD, was also something else that kinda had me stunned.
Much the same. I didn't notice both Terry and Clay until I actually shot them. All killed like stray dogs.
#53 Posted by firecracker22 (553 posts) -

Also, there was a serious moment when I thought Trevor might actually sexually assault Johnny. I mean, Trevor sure as shit sounded like he was serious about it.

#54 Posted by I_Stay_Puft (3565 posts) -

Yeah, if he ran them over with his truck right after.

#55 Posted by Demoskinos (15011 posts) -

@humanity: I do believe GTA III was set in 2001

#56 Edited by JesterPC238 (344 posts) -

I had issues with it at first. I just played Lost and the Damned last week to get ready for 5, and I really enjoyed it. Then I got to thinking a bit more and realized that while I did enjoy it, Johnny was the nastiest of the three characters. He seemed to have even less remorse for his actions than Niko (and certainly Luis) and his willingness to off Billy showed that he was not a "good" guy. Furthermore, his inability to cut Ashley loose sets up his own meth addiction perfectly.

If it had been Trevor curb stomping the Johnny that I like, the guy at the midpoint of TLAD, then yea, I would have felt that it went too far. But if you think about what Johnny must be like now, I think it's less upsetting, and it did set the tone for Trevor as a character and for the world outside of the city.

I can't, however, decide if I think Trevor's commitment to Michael's family is really out of place or a refreshing level of depth for his character.

#57 Posted by stealthdf2 (168 posts) -

I found this cause i just saw it in game and wanted to see if i was the only person upset by his death and the way he died. i guess when you really think about it they were showing how far Johnny had fallen. his appearence is obviously different as he is very skinny and strung out being addicted to meth. he didnt have any real fight in him or anything, he just got mildy upset that his girl he still loved was being screwed by this jerk. the old johnny w all know and love would have just straight up took trevor out right then and there.

maybe if we are lucky they will do a DLC or something and let us play a prequel with johnny and see how the mighty have fallen so to speak. i was excited to hear he was going to be in GTA 5 but then he is snuffed out jus tas quick as he is introduced and it really was a let down. it also goes to show how rockstar can write good story and get people attached to a character so heavily.

#58 Posted by Whitestripes09 (417 posts) -

I think it introduced who and what Trevor is from the get go. I like Trevor a lot though, he's a murdering psychopath, yet he has this profound view on life that is somewhat true.

#59 Posted by DonutFever (3553 posts) -

I don't think you're supposed to "like" him.

He's basically a white Tuco Salamanca.

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#60 Edited by Demoskinos (15011 posts) -

@jesterpc238: Trevor in all his madness seems to have walled off limits to some things. He admits he has a "thing" for older women and you do see streaks of not what Id call "kindness" but more of "loyalty" when it comes to Micheal. If you remember the first scene with the heist in Yankton once mike got shot Trevor didn't want to leave him. Seeing as his loyalty to Mike is what it is even though he feels wronged for having been kept in the dark for the past 10 years you can still see that loyalty bubble up. Otherwise he would have just beat the shit out of mike like he did Johnny the first time he saw him.

#61 Edited by Yummylee (22041 posts) -

This got me thinking if Rockstar would consider making a prequel story starring Johnny and two other characters; maybe Terry and Clay, though a new pair could be cool. I'd love to see Johnny's tragic downfall (or... the next step of it anyway) after having to move on from Alderney.

Though I wonder if there'll be any new story stuff at all, or if R* will stick to supporting GTA Online.

#62 Edited by OldManLight (882 posts) -

wasn't a fan of johnny but finished that DLC regardless. Trevor made reference to him being a junkie along with his girl so that could explain his appearance and acting like a pussy. Plus it makes sense to establish that trevor is a badass if a former protagonist is afraid of him so, yeah i'm ok with the way he went out and when he talks to the bottom of his boot as if he's talking to johnny, i laughed my ass off.

#63 Posted by Wampa1 (707 posts) -

@yummylee: It'd be pretty amusing if they did two expansion packs again both staring the same characters as GTA IV, I could definitely see Gay Tony settling in Vinewood.

#64 Posted by Yummylee (22041 posts) -

@wampa1 said:

@yummylee: It'd be pretty amusing if they did two expansion packs again both staring the same characters as GTA IV, I could definitely see Gay Tony settling in Vinewood.

Plus they need to take down Rocko! Though I say this as someone who's still pretty early in the game so... for all I know he may finally get his comeuppance in GTA V.

#65 Posted by Cold_Wolven (2259 posts) -

I didn't like it as I played LatD from GTA IV and I liked playing as Johnny leading his chapter and to have Rockstar throw all of them under the bus like that rubbed me the wrong way, all I can say is I think Johnny is a better character than Trevor and having that happen was not winning me over for Trevor.

#66 Posted by dcgc (878 posts) -

I loved it because I thought that Johny was a bad-ass in the TLAD DLC. We know Trevor is a maniac and the way for Rockstar to prove it to us almost immediately was: "Remember those Lost MC bad-ass bikers, specifically Johny? Well, he's death just cause... And he fucked is ex." (I actually killed her after killing him (ran over her)). I loved that moment but felt sorry for (almost) the death of all of them since I really liked the characters in the expansion back when I played it.

#67 Posted by JSwan13 (285 posts) -

I can see where you're coming from, but I think the way they off'd Johnny was great. I really like when major characters just die a sudden uncalled for death.

#68 Edited by senrat (323 posts) -

Johnny was warned not to cross trevor and he did it anyway. Trevor seems to be unlike the other characters in that he is willing to do anything to get what he wants. He is also crazy psychopath and these sort of things are to be expected from him. Johnny wasnt exactly a likable character, he is a criminal thug just like everybody else, we have just played as him before. So no, I dont think it was too far.

#69 Posted by Humanity (9582 posts) -

Maybe this is some sort of commentary on how all the characters you play are ultimately scum and will end up on some terrible path regardless of what you do during their campaign.

#71 Posted by Nottle (1917 posts) -

I thought it was a pretty interesting scenario, it showed that Trevor doesn't fuck around, and it also made me think about how often you gun down mooks in GTA and think nothing of it but all of a sudden its a character you got to know, someone you were invested in, and it becomes more meaningful.

I wondered what would happen if it was just some guy Trevor killed, because a whole lot is going on in that scene, and I think the whole order of "ok heres Trevor fucking, he see the news, stops fucking . OH SHIT it's Johnny, Trevor throws bottle and stomps Johnny's head in, DAMN Johnny is Dead, now I'm playing as Trevor" was a really chaotic way to introduce him. Taking away the excitement of seeing a familiar face probably kills a bit of that scene.

#72 Posted by ShadowConqueror (3065 posts) -

I thought it was great. Trevor is probably my favorite character.

#73 Edited by Mr_Misery (261 posts) -

No I don't think so. It was obviously to set up how crazy Trevor is and Johnny isn't exactly a beloved character. What went too far was that torture scene.

#74 Posted by The_Ruiner (1080 posts) -

Everything about Trevor is disturbing. So I'd say it fits.

#75 Edited by Demoskinos (15011 posts) -

Wow, so I just saw the scene where Trevor "meets Deborah" holy fucking god man that scene turned from being sort of comical with Trevor ruining Floyd's life yet again to incredibly disturbing on a dime man. FUCK.

#76 Posted by probablytuna (3727 posts) -
@yummylee said:

Johnny was my favourite GTAIV protagonist, so naturally it was both shocking and a bit depressing to see him go like that... However, like everybody else says, it establishes how much of a complete nut job Trevor is. Johnny succumbing to meth also fitted the character, and him still sticking with Ashley after everything he's had to put up with, this could probably be seen as a suitable punishment...

Still, poor Johnny... that guy's had a pretty fucking terrible streak of bad luck in The Lost & Damned, which itself was also (partly) instigated by your actions as Niko.

I thought it was Niko who kept getting screwed over by Johnny? What with him kidnapping Roman and stealing the drug money. It's been a while since I finished TLAD but what else happened?

Also after that DLC I just don't buy into the idea that Johnny would even become a meth head or get back with Ashley. Maybe I just like feeling hopeful for the characters to have a happy ending when a story finishes and their outcomes are left unstated (like I expect Niko would quit being a criminal).

#77 Edited by Yummylee (22041 posts) -
@probablytuna said:
@yummylee said:

Johnny was my favourite GTAIV protagonist, so naturally it was both shocking and a bit depressing to see him go like that... However, like everybody else says, it establishes how much of a complete nut job Trevor is. Johnny succumbing to meth also fitted the character, and him still sticking with Ashley after everything he's had to put up with, this could probably be seen as a suitable punishment...

Still, poor Johnny... that guy's had a pretty fucking terrible streak of bad luck in The Lost & Damned, which itself was also (partly) instigated by your actions as Niko.

I thought it was Niko who kept getting screwed over by Johnny? What with him kidnapping Roman and stealing the drug money. It's been a while since I finished TLAD but what else happened?

Also after that DLC I just don't buy into the idea that Johnny would even become a meth head or get back with Ashley. Maybe I just like feeling hopeful for the characters to have a happy ending when a story finishes and their outcomes are left unstated (like I expect Niko would quit being a criminal).

Niko killed Jason (ordered by Faustin), which is what gave Billy the perfect excuse into enacting war against the Angels of Death and furthering the tension between him and Johnny, and he killed Jim, Johnny's best friend, which no doubt contributed to the downfall of the Alderney chapter of The Lost and Johnny's own fall into meth addiction.

#78 Posted by TheHBK (5506 posts) -

I liked it. Fuck Johnny. Anything associated with GTA4 should be treated as such.

#79 Posted by lusence (345 posts) -

yah i felt it was a pretty lame plot device. made johnny seem weak. i think he would of stood a chance against trevor. johnny was a freaking hero of a game, they shouldnt treat a lead char that way. i was pretty pissed off about that.

#80 Posted by Sarumarine (2264 posts) -

I'm always surprised to see "too far" in relation to any Grand Theft Auto game. Considering Trevor is the ultimate personification of any regular GTA player (and character) as a man who does what he wants, kills who he wants, creates havoc as he sees fit without a lick of remorse or concern. That scene lets you in on everything you have to know about him. And did Johnny from TLAD really have that much of a presence for people to be upset or concerned about how he gets his end in GTA V? I just thought it was an interesting use for that character considering Johnny had run his course from his DLC appearance. I didn't think they'd bring him up again.

Although my opinion is mostly due to the tone of the GTA world throughout the whole series where everyone is petty, stupid, or a criminal due to the satire of American culture. These aren't really characters you worry about when they die. It's more like "well, that person is gone, what's next?"

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#81 Posted by Andorski (5342 posts) -

I thought it was kind of a cheap way for Rockstar to establish Trevor as a crazy motherfucker. Killing a random person or a recently introduced character doesn't have the weight of killing a character that GTA players have known and played as for years. Rockstar was probably never going to use any of GTA IV's character roster again, so popping off Johnny wasn't much of a sacrifice on their end.

#82 Posted by probablytuna (3727 posts) -
@yummylee said:
@probablytuna said:
@yummylee said:

Johnny was my favourite GTAIV protagonist, so naturally it was both shocking and a bit depressing to see him go like that... However, like everybody else says, it establishes how much of a complete nut job Trevor is. Johnny succumbing to meth also fitted the character, and him still sticking with Ashley after everything he's had to put up with, this could probably be seen as a suitable punishment...

Still, poor Johnny... that guy's had a pretty fucking terrible streak of bad luck in The Lost & Damned, which itself was also (partly) instigated by your actions as Niko.

I thought it was Niko who kept getting screwed over by Johnny? What with him kidnapping Roman and stealing the drug money. It's been a while since I finished TLAD but what else happened?

Also after that DLC I just don't buy into the idea that Johnny would even become a meth head or get back with Ashley. Maybe I just like feeling hopeful for the characters to have a happy ending when a story finishes and their outcomes are left unstated (like I expect Niko would quit being a criminal).

Niko killed Jason (ordered by Faustin), which is what gave Billy the perfect excuse into enacting war against the Angels of Death and furthering the tension between him and Johnny, and he killed Jim, Johnny's best friend, which no doubt contributed to the downfall of the Alderney chapter of The Lost and Johnny's own fall into meth addiction.

I guess both characters did terrible things to each other but didn't know about it. I could see Jim's death haunting him (leading to, like you said, his meth addiction) since it was his decision to steal the money which led to Jim's death. Now that I think about it, I guess it's a fitting end for Johnny.

#83 Posted by NeoKef (75 posts) -

God damn, thinking back to when I heard about it (a friend spoil it through tweet) I was just in shocked and thinking "well, something super serious between Trevor and Johnny must have happen" only to have in the first cutscene with Trevor kills off a weak Johnny without much effort. I remember thinking to myself "What are you doing? Why are you looking down? Why aren't you decking him? Whats going on?"

I think Rockstar did an amazing job introducing Trevor by doing something like that, it sorta reinforces my idea that of "no protagonists in the GTA universe is invincible" in which these main characters not always go with the 'happily ever after' life we hope they have (lets face it, Niko probably doesn't have the brightest future with either ending from IV [I just read the wiki and I can't remember Kate if my life depended upon it.])

I do wish we can see something like "The Fall of The Lost" DLC or something, explaining how Johnny and them ended up in LS and what caused Johnny to crack. Just a way to let us know first hand how everything came to be and give us some idea how it all happen.

#84 Edited by Tajasaurus (895 posts) -

I guess that's what happens when you stick with Ash.

Yeah. It makes perfect sense that Johnny isn't as much of a bad ass as he was in The Lost and Damned. The way he shrinks back after Trevor says he might withhold meth from him or whatever tells the entire story. TLAD is probably my favourite GTA, and I loved the way that Johnny's story resolved. These people aren't good people, and more often than not they will probably meet bad ends. Though, due to the never ending nature of open world games, we generally don't get to see that final chapter (RDR and LA Noir not withstanding)

#85 Edited by lusence (345 posts) -

i wouldnt want to see any of the main chars getting stomped down like that by trevor. Not niko, not luis, not johnny (especially since he was the voice actor of john m. the hero from RDR-notice trevor kept calling him 'cowboy', seemed a little 2 far fetched.) not any of the 3 main dude from gta 4. I dont think it sold for me. so johnny is supposed to be a meth head or something? jesus look at trevor the guy probably eats paint chips and huffs old poop. i would of much rather seen more of johnny, maybe even a chance to work with him in the quest line or go all out to war, not just one scene where he gets stomped down. they could of made trevor look like the psycho badass he is without having to take a shit on one of the main chars golden years imo. still am shocked. i understand what rockstar wanted to do just dont think it was a good idea, nor was it implemented well as is.

#86 Posted by lusence (345 posts) -

just seemed way off base from the story behind TLAD. after all they went through and they seemed to be turning over a new leaf at the end of the story in gta4. just then into a bunch of meth heads in the middle of the boonies for the sake of GTA V? naaaaah. just not seeing it.

#87 Posted by RazielCuts (2975 posts) -

I didn't play the Lost and Damned but I knew who they were and the faces of the main characters so I was a little surprised to 1) see them there, I thought ah cool call back for people and then 2) subsequent quick graphic curb stomp killing of one and subsequent others. It was cartoonish, especially the taking the brain matter of his boot part, to the point of trying a bit too hard to introduce Trevor as this big 'psycho' caricature. Subtly has never been Rockstars strong suit, but I guess that's the point?

#88 Posted by N7 (3595 posts) -

Moral of the story: Don't do drugs.

#89 Edited by Chaser324 (6648 posts) -

It's pretty extreme, but it didn't really bother me all that much. Johnny, Ashley, and the rest of The Lost MC are deep in the criminal world, and this is the sort of thing that happens there. It wasn't until the torture scene and the murder of Floyd and his girlfriend that the psychotic nature of Trevor started to maybe bother me a bit.

Moderator Online
#90 Edited by Gamer_152 (14091 posts) -

I thought it was a really good intro to Trevor, it gives you an immediate idea just the kind of maniac he is. It was shocking, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it disturbing. Trevor is absolutely a psycho bully, but when you consider the kind of things that we as players do with the characters, especially when just left to dick about in that sandbox of a world, we kind of end up being a psycho bully anyway. Trevor feels like a personification of that.

Moderator
#91 Posted by mandeponium (275 posts) -

Was it too far? Yes.

Is anything in this game not taken too far? No.

#92 Posted by Yummylee (22041 posts) -
#93 Edited by myketuna (1723 posts) -

@yummylee said:

@probablytuna: Huh, I just realised you and @myketuna aren't the same person...

You scared me for a second. I haven't even purchased GTA V and then I get a notice that I'm in this thread. "Wait, what? When did I post here? How did I finish the game? Why would I post here?"

Anyway, yeah. Different folks.

#94 Edited by AngriGhandi (784 posts) -

Just got there, and it definitely didn't sit right with me.

I wasn't upset at the fact that they killed a character from a prior game, I just felt upset that they killed a character who already had an arc in his own game, and whose story already had its most appropriate ending. By showing him randomly ending up Trevor's stepping stone, it kind of invalidates everything I thought he (and I) had accomplished in TLaD.

I mean, that entire game is about Johnny learning to have the maturity to walk away from a bad situation in spite of his pride-- and then he ends up going back on that character growth to work with Trevor, who couldn't more obviously be a crazy person and a walking, talking bad situation all by himself.

It's a total Alien 3 moment, where they pretty much ruin a previous story's entire meaning just to make their current story seem more hardcore or whatever, and it sucks.

If they wanted to kill off a prior character, it should have been someone for whom it would have felt like an appropriate conclusion for their story-- someone who hadn't already had their appropriate conclusion. Someone in way over their head, who never learned not to trifle with bad, bad things, and was always begging for disaster.

It should have been Brucie.

#95 Edited by LackingSaint (1830 posts) -

I thought it was great. I think Rockstar did a tremendous job of making me uneasy about the character of Trevor; he's fundamentally a rogue element and a fucked-up guy, so when you start to like him and they pull something like that it really keeps the tension. In fact, the things I liked the least about Trevor's character are when Rockstar pulled punches (not killing the tortured guy for one thing). It's like, you've set this guy up to be genuinely dark and messed-up, don't try to pull this facade of hidden goodness.

#96 Edited by thatdutchguy (1273 posts) -

I loved it. The moment i saw that, i thought that Rockstar wanted to make clear that this game isn't like GTA IV.

It was like a fresh start for me.

#97 Edited by Morningstar (2187 posts) -

It set the tone for the piece of shit that is Trevor, so no it wasn't too far.

#98 Edited by Yummylee (22041 posts) -
@lackingsaint said:

I thought it was great. I think Rockstar did a tremendous job of making me uneasy about the character of Trevor; he's fundamentally a rogue element and a fucked-up guy, so when you start to like him and they pull something like that it really keeps the tension. In fact, the things I liked the least about Trevor's character are when Rockstar pulled punches (not killing the tortured guy for one thing). It's like, you've set this guy up to be genuinely dark and messed-up, don't try to pull this facade of hidden goodness.

I'm pretty sure he mostly let the torture victim guy go alive to spite Steve Haines.

#99 Posted by tanklor (18 posts) -

I guess that "The Lost and Damned" DLC didn't sell that well.^^

#100 Posted by Evilsbane (4645 posts) -

You talk about being fine with character deaths as long as they are meaningful? What could be more meaningful if the first introduction to Trevor we get is him banging a methed out biker girl and then beating her boyfriend to death by curb stomping him? Sets a pretty clear tone to who and what Trevor is. And that is kind of the point Trevor isn't a likeable guy AT ALL but that doesn't mean he isn't a good character because he IS a good character possibly the best of the series.

By far the best in the series

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