Codemaster remove 'incar' view from GRiD 2 as only 5% use it.

#101 Posted by TheHBK (5658 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

This is stupid... because that 5% that DO use the feature are you hardcore race audience. They are the guys with the crazy steering wheel setups and the whole deal. THEY are the guys who will most likely buy the damn thing either way.

Yeah, I am sure they did the math and those 5% will most likely still buy the game for fun. And I doubt Codemasters is worried about their setup since I doubt they make money from that gear anyway.

#102 Posted by nintendoeats (6138 posts) -

Did they actually model car interiors, or was it just sort of sitting on top of the hood?

#103 Posted by Demoskinos (16201 posts) -

@TheHBK said:

@Demoskinos said:

This is stupid... because that 5% that DO use the feature are you hardcore race audience. They are the guys with the crazy steering wheel setups and the whole deal. THEY are the guys who will most likely buy the damn thing either way.

Yeah, I am sure they did the math and those 5% will most likely still buy the game for fun. And I doubt Codemasters is worried about their setup since I doubt they make money from that gear anyway.

Except we have a number of people even in just this thread saying otherwise. If this is what makes or breaks your game getting developed then somewhere along the line you fucked up.

#104 Posted by Subjugation (4782 posts) -

I always use interior cams. I used it exclusively in Dirt 3 because of one Drew Scanlon selling me on the idea. Anything else just doesn't feel right to me, so obviously this news is a major bummer.

#105 Posted by Deranged (1921 posts) -

Don't really care. It's an irritating view, I always get the repetitive feeling that I can't see the majority of the road and it's zoomed out too far.

#106 Posted by PrivateIronTFU (3858 posts) -

I don't care. I like the third person camera much better. You know, actually being able to see everything in front of you and to the sides of you and immediately behind you. And actually being able to see the car you're driving. Call me crazy.

It just seems like people actively not buying this game because of a lack of cockpit view is, well, kinda stupid.

#107 Posted by mandude (2670 posts) -

@PrivateIronTFU said:

I don't care. I like the third person camera much better. You know, actually being able to see everything in front of you and to the sides of you and immediately behind you. And actually being able to see the car you're driving. Call me crazy.

It just seems like people actively not buying this game because of a lack of cockpit view is, well, kinda stupid.

What? By what stroke of sense do you possibly figure that I should buy something I don't enjoy?

#108 Posted by Ben_H (3595 posts) -

@nintendoeats said:

Did they actually model car interiors, or was it just sort of sitting on top of the hood?

Actual interiors with the dash, steering wheel, windshield wipers (including weather effects on the windshield, which added a lot to emersion) and all. At least that's what they did in Dirt and in the old Colin McRae Rally games. I can't remember for GRID but I think that is the case as well. Forza does the same thing (Forza's are scarily accurate. I have a car that is in the game the interior they have for it is dead on. The only thing they did wrong was the dash lighting, because only part of the speedometer area was illuminated blue when it should have all been blue).

#109 Posted by Sooty (8195 posts) -

wtf I thought loads used the in-car, that's the best view.

#110 Posted by HadesTimes (884 posts) -

What I think is crazy about this in car view issue is that Grid was one of the first games to make people want to play in the in car view and now they have decided there is no point in doing it anymore. LOL. I did play with in car view, but only when the car was obviously cool. I would probably play it that way more now after playing that way in Shift 2 and Forza 3.

#111 Posted by Wes899 (2164 posts) -

Cockpit is the only way I play racing games.

#112 Posted by masternater27 (929 posts) -

If I had a wheel I'd probably be upset, but I don't, so I'm not. Behind the car is easiest for me when I'm using a controller because it gives me the best sense of positioning. It's weird driving like that with a wheel though.

#113 Edited by Rohok (579 posts) -

Not buying GRID 2 then. Not that I was gonna get it anyway. But seriously, that's just low. And all you idiots supporting their decision or condemning people for not wanting the game now just need to turn off your PCs and never turn them on again, because you're the reason video games are so streamlined and mainstream now. You're idiots, lol.

#114 Posted by nintendoeats (6138 posts) -

@Ben_H said:

@nintendoeats said:

Did they actually model car interiors, or was it just sort of sitting on top of the hood?

Actual interiors with the dash, steering wheel, windshield wipers (including weather effects on the windshield, which added a lot to emersion) and all. At least that's what they did in Dirt and in the old Colin McRae Rally games. I can't remember for GRID but I think that is the case as well. Forza does the same thing (Forza's are scarily accurate. I have a car that is in the game the interior they have for it is dead on. The only thing they did wrong was the dash lighting, because only part of the speedometer area was illuminated blue when it should have all been blue).

Yeah, I've played a ton of Forza 3. I set it to interior and never looked back.

But whatever, I was playing racing games in third person before that came along. I can do it again.

#115 Posted by nintendoeats (6138 posts) -

@Ben_H: Oh yeah, which car is it that you are referring to?

#116 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2646 posts) -

This is borderline criminal

#117 Edited by Laiv162560asse (488 posts) -

I read up on this a bit more and Codemasters haven't been remotely consistent in justifying their decision. In an interview for the game reveal, they cite development resources, saying that spending less time on interior modelling allows them to insert more content elsewhere. But then, in the same feature, they say they're going for a 'less is more' approach, with a smaller amount of content produced at a higher quality. So cutting the in-car view doesn't actually add up to 'more other stuff' at all.

Then in an official statement on the GRiD 2 forums, they don't cite development resources at all but hardware limitations; apparently console hardware can't handle both the car interiors and whatever CM are trying to do with the tracks and exterior models. Elsewhere they boast about how in depth they're going on the physics engine, which will run at 2x the cycle speed of Forza etc etc... So one minute they're saying 'we're doing more than ever before' and the next they're saying 'we're scaling back because 6 year old hardware can't handle it'.  They conveniently don't discuss the fact that PCs could handle this easily.  

Finally, the '5%' thing seems like a classic case of statistical misinterpretation; they've checked a metric and decided that it justifies whatever half-baked decision they make off the back of it. As mentioned by IO software, probably less than 20% will complete the next Hitman game - but that doesn't justify anything. The game still has to be a complete game. Most features in most games are only utilised by a small percentage of the player base. They don't even take into account that the server metric which gave them the '5%' number was from online games, where people are more competitive - the cockpit cam is for people who willingly trade visibility for some immersion, and is therefore more likely to be used in single player games, by players not registering on the metric. But really, I don't think Codemasters even believe their '5%' thing - it's more than likely just a piece of BS to make it look as if they're considering things carefully, when actually they're just half-arsing the game like they half-arsed DiRT: Showdown.

#118 Posted by Contrarian (1206 posts) -

@mandude said:

@PrivateIronTFU said:

I don't care. I like the third person camera much better. You know, actually being able to see everything in front of you and to the sides of you and immediately behind you. And actually being able to see the car you're driving. Call me crazy.

It just seems like people actively not buying this game because of a lack of cockpit view is, well, kinda stupid.

What? By what stroke of sense do you possibly figure that I should buy something I don't enjoy?

I don't understand this either. I am a recent convert to cockpit view. I can't believe how I raced without it. The very confined nture of the view is what makes it so great. It gives you that sense that you are really there as in real life, your view is severly restricted. It also increase the feel of speed.

When I started palying GT5 initially in bumper view (rear), it felt bad. It was like the car was stationary and the track was moving - it didn't feel like the car had real contact with the track. I switched to cockpit and saw the light - except the cheap cars where they just put a black area up. Man, that was lame for such a big title. On Forza 4 I have never played it other than cockpit.

Whilst I may still get GRID 2, it will be used or clearance for 10% of RRP. I have no intention of going any higher and the removal of cockpit is the reason.

#119 Posted by Wacomole (938 posts) -

That's nuts.

For me it was their attention to detail in the in-car view that differentiated GRiD from other racers at the time.

From memory (it was some time ago now), the most prominent feature that comes to mind was the way the windshield and windows would crack and eventually smash, changing the entire sound of the game in the process as the outside roar of the engine and wind suddenly began to encroach on the formerly (relatively) quiet cocoon of the cockpit. A greatly immersive experience.

Count me among the enormous 5%. Or maybe that should be the even larger number that knew nothing about the survey in the first place.

#120 Posted by Infininja (871 posts) -

You'll still buy the game anyways? Fine. You think people that won't buy the game are stupid? Oh come on. 
 
No one would be calling people stupid if they had removed behind-the-car view and people decided they weren't getting the game then. It's totally cool if you don't like the viewpoint I do, but I'm not unjustified in getting the game because they removed the reason I like it.

#121 Edited by LathspeLL (2 posts) -

I just signed up to say: "No cockpit view = no buy" for me. I bought an Oculus Rift and I would like to experience racing games with cockpit views. I played Shift 2 with their Helmet Cam and I loved it, it's hard to play like that but when you get used to, it is awesome.

Cockpit view adds to game's value imo.

BTW, I bought F1 2012 instead.

#122 Posted by SeanCoughing (279 posts) -

Wow I use that view exclusively in these kinds of games, I never would have imagined I was THAT small of a minority.

#123 Posted by Rustafur (97 posts) -

If that 5% number is accurate, and it most likely is... the savings of developing and rendering car interiors vs a potential, max, 5% sales loss. That's a no-brainer for Codemasters. This is a business, folks.

#124 Posted by jakob187 (22311 posts) -

Still haven't bought it. Unless it's on a deep discount, it still won't get bought.

Even then, it'll probably just sit in my Steam library, never getting played...because I own the first GRID.

#125 Edited by Declarius (187 posts) -

Wont buy. Used nothing but this view in every Dirt game.

#126 Posted by hustlerlt (341 posts) -

Wooooo, I'm in the 5%! I feel so unique!

#127 Posted by Akyho (1815 posts) -

Hey anyone know if this is true? Since yeah I too am one of the driver views people. I have been playing grid 1 on xbox with FPV. I have been a FPV guy fro the last 5 years. It adds to my racing experience, its so important I wouldn't buy Grid 2 cos if it, Id got for something else or if i am to be 3rd person a more arcade racer.

#128 Edited by bonebreak2000 (21 posts) -

Wow i cannot believe the thing that set them apart form every other racer at the time they have abandoned. This is a very bad decision. Count me in as someone who will not be buying grid 2. I was just playing grid one on steam last night and I mentioned to a friend this morning it has me pumped for grid 2. He then sent me this story. As a person who plays just about every serious racing game over the last 4-5 years if codemasters is removing this from all racing games they make (which is just about everything they do anymore) then I am done with codemasters games. Its not a threat or an over reaction. Its just not for me. Grid pushed the industry 5 years ago. I was excited about that. Forza 3 followed suit. Gt5 didnt and they fell flat on the face to the point that they had to release a new version with more cockpits views. Grid 1 and dirt made this a staple feature that people expect. Is codemasters perpared to fall flat on the face like GT and poly was? Grid 2 has more of a following than GT? I think not. I'll stick to the real racing games apparently made by other devs :(.

#129 Posted by Maniac_64 (2 posts) -

So on Xbox360 this should be in xbl arcade...since its now an arcade game. They could've taken out the buildings. Only 5% of people look at the buildings ya know...

#130 Posted by envane (1188 posts) -

yeah it sucsk :/ got my track ir out and was all hyped , oh wait no cockpit ... booo

otherwise its an ok game and i feel the game runs better as a result of not even incuding the interior. so thats a tiny upside .

i really wish i could paly that driveclub game on pc with trackir (or some magical turn of events that enables trackir support on ps4) because the list of games that supoort it is now stagnating , and lets face it , i still want some more use out of my $200+ toy

#132 Posted by HerbieBug (4228 posts) -

I just signed up to say: "No cockpit view = no buy" for me. I bought an Oculus Rift and I would like to experience racing games with cockpit views. I played Shift 2 with their Helmet Cam and I loved it, it's hard to play like that but when you get used to, it is awesome.

Cockpit view adds to game's value imo.

BTW, I bought F1 2012 instead.

Cockpit view in driving games is the sole reason I am really hoping Oculus Rift becomes popular enough as a peripheral device that major developers of driving games include a mode that supports it in their future releases.

I'm actually on both sides of that % ratio. Whether I use cockpit or chase camera depends on the lighting of the game (how hard is it to distinguish upcoming track), the way the chase cam moves, and the field of view offered in cockpit mode (I do cockpit for open wheel cars in Forza). So, for example, I use cockpit mode in Dirt rally stages because the chase cam view swings around like it's drunk and makes me dizzy. In rally stages, peripheral view isn't super critical, at least for me, so I prefer to use that view for those stages. In rally cross I use chase cam because I need as complete a view of my surroundings as possible. Flat screen tv cockpit view essentially gives you 30% of the range of vision you would normally have if actually physically sitting in a car. Thus the desire for oculus rift support.

#133 Edited by aspaceinvader (261 posts) -

I wont get this game, I prefer cockpit view in all racing games for one reason it feels like you actually in the car driving it. All other views are just unrealistic, remove this view is pointless, just like driving in outside view. Sorry codemasters you just lost a sale. Do this to f1 and you will loose even more sales.

#134 Edited by Funkydupe (3442 posts) -

When I drive in 3rd person it just feels like I'm watching someone else drive. When I'm in the car it feels a lot more realistic.

It took a lot of flack from the masses, but I really enjoyed how Shift 2 did it. I had two big speakers and a sub handling the audio as well so I really felt the engines roar and the impact of smashing into other cars.

#135 Posted by BaconGames (3775 posts) -

While I do love me the option to play cockpit view, they probably assumed the 5% thing was enough of a relative estimate that it was not worth investing so much in. It was a risk and Codemasters knew that because as soon as they announced it fans complained. However, the question is, as others have probably said, whether the feature is more important to leave in even if most don't use it, than to take it out. I guess the success and feedback will tell but in the end, all of that doesn't matter because I don't think the core game justifies the purchase and time in the first place.

My guess is that they barely were able to justify a sequel to Grid in the first place and did whatever they could to cut corners and even make the thing I'm sure a core group at Codemasters wanted. After all, Dirt is their big franchise and that game still having in-car view indicates there's something to do with budgeting and company risk associated with those two franchises. The lack of in-car view is probably just a symptom of that.

#136 Posted by Darson (466 posts) -

The Quick Look had a cockpit. Am I missing something?

#137 Posted by KittyVonDoom (447 posts) -

Were Codemasters asking people that actually buy their games? Or just random dudes what like games?

#138 Posted by GreggD (4582 posts) -

While I do love me the option to play cockpit view, they probably assumed the 5% thing was enough of a relative estimate that it was not worth investing so much in. It was a risk and Codemasters knew that because as soon as they announced it fans complained. However, the question is, as others have probably said, whether the feature is more important to leave in even if most don't use it, than to take it out. I guess the success and feedback will tell but in the end, all of that doesn't matter because I don't think the core game justifies the purchase and time in the first place.

My guess is that they barely were able to justify a sequel to Grid in the first place and did whatever they could to cut corners and even make the thing I'm sure a core group at Codemasters wanted. After all, Dirt is their big franchise and that game still having in-car view indicates there's something to do with budgeting and company risk associated with those two franchises. The lack of in-car view is probably just a symptom of that.

DiRT Showdown had no cockpit view. And that was the latest game to bear the DiRT name. Also, I think this game is great. I'm having a lot of fun with it.

#139 Posted by BaconGames (3775 posts) -

@greggd said:

@bacongames said:

While I do love me the option to play cockpit view, they probably assumed the 5% thing was enough of a relative estimate that it was not worth investing so much in. It was a risk and Codemasters knew that because as soon as they announced it fans complained. However, the question is, as others have probably said, whether the feature is more important to leave in even if most don't use it, than to take it out. I guess the success and feedback will tell but in the end, all of that doesn't matter because I don't think the core game justifies the purchase and time in the first place.

My guess is that they barely were able to justify a sequel to Grid in the first place and did whatever they could to cut corners and even make the thing I'm sure a core group at Codemasters wanted. After all, Dirt is their big franchise and that game still having in-car view indicates there's something to do with budgeting and company risk associated with those two franchises. The lack of in-car view is probably just a symptom of that.

DiRT Showdown had no cockpit view. And that was the latest game to bear the DiRT name. Also, I think this game is great. I'm having a lot of fun with it.

True but I remember hearing something about the next Dirt game having cockpit view. Could be all hearsay, in fact that's a good way to describe it, but I wouldn't be surprised if a mainline Dirt game (which by definition excludes Showdown) had a cockpit view going forward.

#140 Edited by CommanderGermanShepard (309 posts) -

@demoskinos said:

This is stupid... because that 5% that DO use the feature are you hardcore race audience. They are the guys with the crazy steering wheel setups and the whole deal. THEY are the guys who will most likely buy the damn thing either way.

Steering wheel and bumper\hud cam for me, I don't think the hardcore would use the cockpit view other than in a open wheel racing game, hardcore racers are more interested in winning the race than having a pretty looking cockpit view which obstructs about 60% of the track. Now if I had a Oculus Rift setup cockpit view all the way, because the wind screen would be bigger that your tv anyway, quick looks to the rear view mirror and left and right would actually give the cockpit view an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

#141 Edited by Alekss (357 posts) -

Let the 5% bitch and moan

#142 Posted by GreggD (4582 posts) -

@greggd said:

@bacongames said:

snip

DiRT Showdown had no cockpit view. And that was the latest game to bear the DiRT name. Also, I think this game is great. I'm having a lot of fun with it.

True but I remember hearing something about the next Dirt game having cockpit view. Could be all hearsay, in fact that's a good way to describe it, but I wouldn't be surprised if a mainline Dirt game (which by definition excludes Showdown) had a cockpit view going forward.

You're probably right. Even moreso by the outcry this game has received for not including it. But hey, I'm one of the few who actually went back and played Grid 1 from a 3rd person view just to get used to it, because I didn't wanna miss out.

#143 Edited by bluefish (633 posts) -

Still a great game, lets roll with it anyway fella's

#144 Edited by BaconGames (3775 posts) -

@greggd said:

@bacongames said:

@greggd said:

@bacongames said:

snip

DiRT Showdown had no cockpit view. And that was the latest game to bear the DiRT name. Also, I think this game is great. I'm having a lot of fun with it.

True but I remember hearing something about the next Dirt game having cockpit view. Could be all hearsay, in fact that's a good way to describe it, but I wouldn't be surprised if a mainline Dirt game (which by definition excludes Showdown) had a cockpit view going forward.

You're probably right. Even moreso by the outcry this game has received for not including it. But hey, I'm one of the few who actually went back and played Grid 1 from a 3rd person view just to get used to it, because I didn't wanna miss out.

It's an interesting experiment to be sure. After all, data logically supports Codemasters on this one until the new data comes in about how feature psychology factored into this game. Almost impossibly hard to separate from the myriad factors associated with a game's success whether release time, marketing, review distribution, economic situation across the globe, and the relative context of other games in the market.

#145 Edited by Caustic_Fox (118 posts) -

All I can say is: Fuck you Codemasters. I remember EA pulled the same crap with Need For Speed (They still do). It started from Need For Speed 6: Hot Pursuit 2. It wasn't until Shift came out, they decided to include cockpit views again. How can anyone even call it a simulation game without cockpit views? The whole point of cockpit views is so that you get the immersion which you are actually driving said vehicle. But without it, it just feels like an arcade.

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