@Dourin:
Allright, now that i have some time one my hands. As you welcomed me to the internet allow me to say welcome to Giantbomb :P
My address of not looking for an argument was mostly a courtesy request to other users, which most recognized. When I start arguing with people it can take a while and I argue and discuss many many games that come out, not just GW2 (which you seem to mostly inhabit at least looking from the forum posts). It's a simple time management issue, am i looking to spend several hours with someone disguising this game back and forth? and i really wasn't feeling like GW2 was worth my time in this instance. Sometimes you are just not looking to pick a game apart but quickly jot down some feelings on it. But since you want to discuss my points sure, one thing i do is stand behind my opinions. That's not to say i don't see other peoples point of view, and also have no problems admitting when i have been wrong.
Well enough procrastinating lets get down to it.
To your first point, I can agree that the loading screens can feel excessive at points, but I feel like the only time that's the case is when I'm abusing the use of waypoints to get to places I could easily walk. The game world actually feels extremely large (arguably larger than WoW felt, and I haven't even seen it all yet). In my experiences, you can see the major cities when you would expect to see them. I think the only exception to this is Rata Sum, which does seem oddly disconnected from the Asura starting zone, with Polymock arenas standing between the two zones.
And that's a big point to me. It makes a feeling go from "wow im in this huge interesting world" to "hmm this is a big MMO" Some people play MMOs for the mechanics but the first draw to me is immersiveness. Something WoW managed on a unprecedented scale, open world with almost no loading zones, actually felt like a world, neat little tricks like using fly by air transportation to show off it's magnitude and seamlessness serves to drive the sense of a world into the player. The game world of GW2 is huge but it just feels like an artificial game instead of a world to me. (this feeling is emphasized by later points too).
As far as major cities go, i have started 3 characters: a char, those plant dudes and the viking fellows. In neither of the three cases could i see the capital city from outside. If it can actually be seen then that is even worse, because i sure as hell did not notice them at all from the starting zones, they failed to stand out completely. Hell even EQ2 managed this part quite well with cities dominating the beginning landscape. Never mind WoW with Ironforge gates dominating the view or that awesome feeling of seeing Ogrimar for the first time. This zoning and visual design is what makes one feel more like being in a fantasy world rather then in an artificial construct.
Again none of this is an issue if you are into an MMO for the mechanics and the game part of it. It matters to me hugely because that's one of the reasons that made WoW so appealing in the first place, the sense of being in a world.
If you have absolutely no urge to explore the world, then you're ignoring a large chunk of what GW2 PvE leveling has to offer. The game actively encourages you to explore every corner of each zone, searching for points of interest, waypoints, vistas, and skill challenges, before finally rewarding you with a loot chest upon completing the zone.
Here is the thing, you are assuming that I am ignoring a huge chunk of GW2 when I am not dong that at all. (this is also one for the reasons i was not looking for a back and forth here because my statements were mostly barebone, leading to such false assumptions).
Again we come to the difference between exploration being natural or gamey. GW2 puts up a shitload of markers to explore vistas, POI, all that jazz and I have done quite a lot of them. But that is not exploration to me, at least not natural self motivated exploration, it's exploration for the games sake, it feels artificial (see we are continuing that immerse feeling though thread from before). When I see a marker on the map encouraging me to explore all I can see is the underlying game systems, i know 100% that the game designer meant for me to go there and "explore" this point, i know there has been purposefully constructed a path to get there, i know a million people will visit this exact place to get their xp portion, this directly interferes with an actual feeling of exploration, of discovering the unknown. The difference is between the game telling me "go here it's a cool place" and saying myself "that looks like a cool place, can i try to get there?". I still remember fondly people (myself included) trying to explore the nooks and crannies of the WoW world for the sheer pleasure of just exploring for being able to say i went there.
I think by now you should be able to better see from what direction I am judging GW2 and the values that drew me to MMO's in the first place.
What do you mean by "overload you on the front end but tapers off as it continues"? If you mean that as you play through the game, there are a ton of renown hearts in the early zones, but they taper off as you hit new zones, that's intentional. Renown hearts are not meant to be the main source of PvE content, but are more of a transitional step toward where the real PvE content of GW2 is: the Dynamic Events. As the game goes on, it begins tapering off the number of renown hearts, but ramping up the number of dynamic events that can spawn in a zone. These dynamic events eventually turn to dynamic event chains, with the conclusion of one leading to the beginning of another. In even later zones, those chains give way to dynamic event webs, whose endings determine the direction and objective of the next dynamic event.
I mean almost everything. But mechanics first and foremost. GW2 makes no excuses and pulls no punches it's an MMO for MMO people. The game frontloads the player with a plethora of new information and systems but as you go along they inflow of new stuff actually keeps decreasing not ramping up. It's a reverse flow from say WoW where the initial pace start of super leisurely and the player being eased into the mechanics the class skills, exploration, crafting, etc. with all of these ramping up steadily as the you progress through the world. For example in GW2 you are given access to a huge number skill straight up (yes weapon skills have to unlock but they do so very fast) leaving a new player with 5 skills for a weapon each of which is a goddamn list with effects, mechanics, follow ups, chains and that's for each weapon, giving you a huge selection by the time you even finish the first zone at the start it's overwhelming. The problem is compounded in that this is not only off putting at the start but as i gained levels further and further the influx of new shit (skills etc) slowed down more and more, with all weapon skills being discovered all i got was a trait/skill every few levels (or whatever they are called). Making the game actually feel more shallow then it really is.
It's a core tenet of Blizzard games and why they are so popular. Easy to get into hard to master. The initial barrier is almost non existent (that's why the masses could pick up WoW/SC2/D3 so easily) but with a deep end of the pool still existing if you want to swim that way. GW2 drops you off the deep end, but as a result you don't feel the pool getting much deeper further on either.
This is also relevant to the crafting system. Overall (at it's core) i like the GW2 crafting system more so then WoWs. However again the game frontloads it with even starting recipes requiring multiple materials processing etc, then there is also the discovery system. When it would have been easier to have simpler crafting in the beginning with more mats being later on as well as discovery being introduced not right away but once you get past your fist crafting tier, just for example. Altho crafting only slightly belongs here with class skills being the prime example.
Same with world events static (hearts) and ongoing. You see it all right in the first zone and it's a bit overwhelming at that point in time. But as I went through further zones it was just more of that. Likewise coming back to exploration the very first time you have the NPC show you the map you are dumped a boatload of exploration icons. Minor by itself and I only mention it for the cumulative snowball effect with other things.
Even all of this is not an issue if you are into MMOs full throttle, the mechanics are nice and a savvy gamer can chew though all of that no problem (i had no issues at least). Problem is that for a new person it sould be too much. It's not going to make GW2 a very friendly game to new people.
I am not saying "wah wah it's all to complicated". It's not. It's just that it wears that complexity on it's sleeve, imposing it right away but leaving less of a carrot on a stick further down the road. For me personally having to digest mechanics first and foremost took away from paying attention to the actual world and having to pay attention more to the game part. All of this could be avoided with better pacing.
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Phew.... i'm starting to get a bit zoned out typing all of this out and loosing my thread of though, sorry if i repeated myself too many times ^.^ Taking a break now to continue typing this up a bit later.
Oookay.
Cities, in my opinion, are not "unnecessarily" huge (with the exception of Hoelbrak). The reason you might feel like they are unnecessarily large is due to your expectations from games like WoW, where a city like Stormwind is considered huge. Divinity's Reach is as large as it is partly because of what it is. That city is the last surviving city for the human race (if I'm not mistaken). Every human in Tyria lives either there or in the outskirts. And that shows when you walk around town. There are a TON of NPC's throughout the city, each with their own dialogue you can catch as you pass by. The city is large, but far from empty. I even caught a lady NPC who was new to the city and was talking to a guard. Upon completion of their dialogue, she began to walk off. I decided to follow her, just to see how far she would walk before disappearing and restarting her interaction with the guard. I followed her and her son a quarter of the way around the city, before she finally walked up to the steps of her home and went inside. These cities feel like living, breathing places, which is more than I can say for most other MMO's out there. TOR tried to do the same thing, making huge cities, and filling them with NPCs. However, their NPC system they used meant each player saw a variable number of NPCs depending on the power of their computer (many of the NPCs were actually rendered client-side because of this). Because of this system, it never really felt like they were people in a city, so much as a prop on an otherwise massively empty set.
Matter of opinion, mostly. Again you are assuming that i think WoW cities were huge like Stormwind, I don't, i consider them just right if not a bit on the little side. There is nothing wrong with large cities in and of itself, i do take issue when they are so large that it detracts from my experience but serves no visible purpose. You say they are more immersive for being so huge, to me it's the reverse the cities are so big and architecture so over the top it ridiculous sometimes. Now full disclaimer i have only fully explored 2 cites the tree of life and norn city (char city i got to and stopped playing the character for now). The norn city especially feels ridiculous in size especially with so much space just being empty and unused it's big for the sake of being big, the city could easily be half the size and still contain all the buildings and NPCs with no problem.
Further the problem of size is initially a game play problem, because to get places in a city you either spend too much time running or have to teleport, and with the size teleport becomes the only reasonable option. Which tangentially adds to my overall issue of more loading screens again detracting further from feeling like it's an actual world rather then just a game. Again an easily avoidable problem by making either the city more compact or having faster travel options without resorting to constant teleporting around and loading screens. Teleporters are solving an artificially created problem in the first place and are detracting from the immersion meanwhile.
As far as NPCs and routines go even Elder Scrolls games can't manage natural NPC behavior, never mind an MMO.
Here is some slightly ironc food for thought. How a smaller city can feel bigger and more alive and why a huge city feels too big and empty leaving it feeling underwhelming. People per square meter of virtual real estate :) It's what made Ogrimar or Ironforge or Stormwind feel so great, a shitload of people all in one place you got there for the first time and things felt like they were moving, shit was happening, the city bustle so to say, the central plazas were basically your medieval downtown. Whereas making such massive cities just makes them seem kinda empty of real people (relatively speaking) due to the spread.
Character movement is a bit floaty; I will give you that. It feels especially imprecise when attempting one of the many jumping puzzles scattered throughout the game. That said, I recently loaded up WoW (wanted to check out the 5.0.1 update) and messed around in there for a bit and I have to say, if GW2 character movement feels imprecise and floaty, and WoW is the alternative, I'll take my floaty imprecision of GW2 any day. The mechanical nature of WoW character movement used to be something I felt like most MMO's never quite got right, but now I see that it might just be due to that type of movement more being a limitation of their engine than anything.
It's a preference thing for sure. I just like feeling 100% in control of my actions in a game. So i don't nkow if GW2 movement is due to animation priority or a different way of handling latency but i just don't like the non instant-super precise-response. Regardless of tech limitations or improvements it's a negative to me.
I won't go too far into the spell effect stuff, since I can see that being an issue some might have, but I feel like GW2 doesn't go nearly as far as some other games (I'm looking at you, Rift). That said, the following confused me: "There are a lot of graphics on a technical level but it's usually just overwhelming with detail and colours and geometry as a result none of it actually stands out as hugely memorable." So...the game looks too good? I wouldn't describe it as overwhelming (at least in a negative sense), and there are plenty of memorable locales throughout the world. Rata Sum's architecture, The Great Collapse in Divinity's Reach, the big rock that look's like Pride Rock in Lornar's Pass.
Hmm this one is probably the hardest to put into words. It's kind of like graphics technical versus graphics artistic, except not quite right. GW2 has the technical side down just fine (it's not exceptional but it's no slouch). I feel like there are way too many objects creating a lack of visual identity to a lot of zones. It's best described by examples maybe. For instance WoW graphics were extremely rudimentary even when it was first released, yet the visual design how things stood out were fantastic, there were great set pieces i remember to this day, like when you first got into Duskwood it really stood out. Simple but very stand out elements like say the earlier example of the gates of Ironforge or seeing Thunderbluff dominating the area you quest in; when you went into Thousand needles, Ungoro crater, Helfire penisula, etcetera etcetera, there are just so many things that were so visually unique and interesting at the time the first time you saw them, they imprint theselves on your mind. Once again adding to the earlier discussed loop of exploration and that feeling of being in a world. Granted I have only seen a few zones so far, but i just don't feel like there is that much uniqness about them, going from plant people starting zone to their next 15-25 zone just felt like going from one slightly tropical green foresty area to another, didn't help that char starting area also seemed very generic. I guess that's what it feels like generic. Then there is the cities )i cant speak for all) but the Tree of Life felt like homogenized collection of green walkways that all looked almost the same, not an instantly recognizable or memorable layout at all. Tho the nord city was a bit better about that. There is a lot of detail in the world but the problem is that the detail frequently covers up stand out features and makes things less unique and more generic.
A funny anecdote, i was quite impressed with the 4 statues of the norn gods/spirits before the city entrance but then i saw very similar giant ice statues inside the city itself and then for the third time later in the next zone. So the impact was kind of lessened.
To sum it up i go around GW2 and it all looks alright, but there are no" Ooooooooooo!" moments, at least so far for me.
I assume by "public quests" you mean the dynamic events, but your descriptions of them resemble renown hearts, so I'm not sure which you mean. Renown hearts, as I stated above, those are just there as a supplement for the dynamic events. As for the events themselves, they definitely have you do more than menial tasks, at least as you play through the game. Sure, in the early zones, you are doing things like fighting off spiders on an orchard or collecting apples, but later on, you'll be defending researchers as hordes of enemies threaten to disrupt their extraction of ancient artifacts from enemy infested caves. If you want to look at it as if the glass is half empty, then yeah, I guess you could say that the system discourages grouping, but if you're not an eternal pessimist, you'd see that the system encourages cooperation more than most MMO's out there, WoW included. Because the system doesn't require grouping to do the dynamic events, and because all kills are shared, even with renown heart activity, the system encourages active cooperation with others around you without the need to first sit there spamming in general "LFG Golemancy Research Event, PST."
I mean both. Again they are just that static events. Even the dynamic stuff is just a sequence on loop. My problem with them is not mechanical, it's once again immersive. They put an additional layer of abstraction between myself and experiencing the lore of the world. Get to an area proceed to just do menial tasks for local NPCs, watch for an event to pop, zerg it with a bunch of people. And thatt's just the first part of the issue, secondly I don't see it encouraging cooperation all that much I have yet to talk socially to anyone in the game it's always just a bunch of dudes being in the same place killing the shit out of everything. Not a single sentence exchanged in several days of play. I have actually had less proper contact with poeople playing GW2 then i did in EQ2 or even Aion. It's antisocial to the extreme. About the only words ever exchanged so far have been "ty" and "thanks" from people when you rez them.
It's not a case of looking at a glass half empty or full, it's a case of having a different priority. I don't feel like I am part of actual events or interesting goings on, i just get from one task zone to another. If it was not for dynamic events popping up i would have already put the game down, they are a bit of a ray of sunshune.
And as I have said because of such a structure of complete abolition of questlines (apart from individual) it makes the world feel less immersive to me. If i have to kill 10 boars from time to time to do the Defias quest and story threads or the Gron hunting or Onyxia chain or Teramore spying or Ungoro expedition or experience the Scarlet crusade, then fuck so be it because those and many more like them were awesome.
As for your critique about the player voices, I think that is just an unfair critique of the game. When we're talking about an MMO where your character has actual dialogue, offering multiple voices to choose from just isn't a viable option, and having a voice to the character is loads better than going the Silent Protagonist route. If you don't like your character's voice, that's a personal opinion, but not really a fair and valid critique on the overall game.
It's not a valid critique of the games quality yes. But it is a 100% valid critique as it applies to my experience with the game. To further reiterate the immersion angle, here (http://www.giantbomb.com/guild-wars-2/61-21223/can-you-makle-a-dwarf/35-558834/#24) is a thread that might make you better understand how I approach creating a character in an MMO. Silent protagonist doesn't apply, because the developrs are not the ones creating an individual fleshed out character. I am creating my own persona to inhabit. And when my hard black wooden dude that looks like charcoal and glows read in the dark fire elementalist talks like a 14 year old light hearted kid, instead of a snarky chain smoker with determination a violent streak, it completely shatters any and all illusion, it's no longer my unique character. And it's not exclusive to one voice either, none of the 3 characters i made sound like their personality and look dictates.
One of the thing that makes MMO's a great experience for me (creating your own unique character) has been severely hamstrung.
"Slanted crafting progression." One simple statement (not sentence, because that was not a sentence) does not a critique make. I'm going to guess you're referring to the fact that you seem to get less of the uncommon crafting materials (necessary for discovery, which seems to be the fastest and easiest way to level a crafting profession) than you need for crafting.
You guessed a bit wrong so I am going to clarify :)
By slanted crafting progression I mean that for example my jewelcrafting is just fine keeping pace with my character level even ahead of it for a little bit, i level it spend some money on it and get useful items in return. Because the materials are easily gather able in the game world. However tailoring is in a complete shithole, I have 100% 'ed two races level 1-15 zones not just my own and I still don't have the materials to even get past the first tier of tailoring, because the profession is so hugely dependent on drops with salvaging. And yes before you ask i do do discoveries, it's still not enough. I can't even start to craft with the second tier of materials yet and i'm already past lvl 25. Not having enough after one zone ok maybe i understand (to encourage trade) but damn dude even after doubling up through the zones to still be struggling for mats is kind of ridiculous.
The fact that the AH is still borked doesn't help either.
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As you see, if you read this far a lot of my negative remarks can be attributed to personal feelings and what I want out of an MMO, it's the exact reason I was not trying to argue stuff in the first place, because many of my points can even be irrelevant to another person who is looking for something else out of GW2. Not all of it, but most of it. And mostly the stuff that was more objective you agreed with me on already. it's also why it is not in it's own thread or blog because i did not think my reactionary feelings warranted such.
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Holy shit! There go several hours. Ironically my GW2 play experiance has gotten a bit more positive since i wrote that initial post so i would rather spend the time playing it atm then this :P
Damn, i knew i should have not gotten into it lol. Yet i keep doing this to myself again and again ^.^
PS: Rorie, duder, I am so fucking sorry for hijacking your blog ><
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