I don't get it, loot doesn't matter~ what's the point?

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#1 Posted by Kenobi (374 posts) -

From gist of things. Any armor or weapons you get make no difference in pvp or wvw. It's basically WoW plus tf2? Cool looking things that don't really make a difference?

I'm probably going to get this but I'm wondering the dynamic of this game is exactly~

Is it achievements?

Tourneys?

#2 Posted by corpdecker (7 posts) -

Loot matters a lot in PVE, which is large part of what GW2 offers. It also matters in WvW (your level scales up to 80 but you wear what you bring in or buy there.)

The only place I'm aware of that you get top level gear regardless of your level at is in the sPVP / Mists area. If you are doing only PVP, there's no reason to care about drops in PVE, which then begs the question, why are you playing PVE if your only concern is PVP.

The "dynamic" of the game is whatever you want to get out of it, some folks PVP, some folks PVE, some folks just craft and some just work the trading post; most do some combination of these.

#3 Posted by DeeGee (2123 posts) -

I'm really bummed out to hear that loot doesn't matter in PvP.

It kind of seems pointless to level up my character and find loot if it's not going to be useful anywhere but leveling up my character and finding loot.

#4 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

Loot matters in PvE and WvW.

sPvP is perfectly even ground (outside of class imbalances). That doesn't make sPvP itemization and stats management any less rich though. There's hundereds of different runes for weapons and armor. Whilst you cannot earn an unfair advantage, there's loads of room to build a superior gear loadout and playstyle.

Gamebreaker has a regular segment on 'building characters'... Buildcast. Check it out to get an idea on what GW2 sPvP itemization is all about.

#5 Posted by Seppli (10251 posts) -

@Kenobi:

btw. in case my answer doesn't answer your question... WINNING is the name of the game.

#6 Posted by geirr (2561 posts) -

What's the point indeed.

#7 Posted by CaLe (3981 posts) -

The point of most MMOs is to take your mind off of your broken life so it will still function in that regard.

#8 Posted by Giefcookie (600 posts) -

Having fun?

#9 Posted by Kenobi (374 posts) -

From what I have heard, not even your own armor is in PVP. Its a separate set. I did not read that, I over heard in on of the twitch.tv streams yesterday. Is that true then?

#10 Posted by phrali (646 posts) -

its an mmo. There is no point.

#11 Posted by Cloudenvy (5891 posts) -

@Kenobi said:

From what I have heard, not even your own armor is in PVP. Its a separate set. I did not read that, I over heard in on of the twitch.tv streams yesterday. Is that true then?

Your own armor and weapon is in WvWvW, in sPVP everyone has access to every possible weapon/armor combination so it's fair but the depth is there in terms of builds and such.

#12 Posted by Shikon (176 posts) -

yes when you go to the mists ( pvp) you get a separate set of armour and weapons with pvp tags on them.

if you win pvp battles you get glory and with that you can unlock different skins for your weapons and armours.

There is also WvW winch is a blend of pve and pvp there you do use your own set of armour and weapons.

but all lvl 80 gear will have the same stats, if you don't count runes ( you slot those in your armour to give them unique statistics)

#13 Edited by Gravier251 (217 posts) -

Loot is worth it progressing from 1-80. As for endgame being balanced item stat wise, and sPVP having set gear is a good thing I feel. Playing Guild Wars I can just jump into pvp, find the build that works for me and right away have a decent, balanced time. It is a refreshing change to jumping into pvp and in straight fights against someone getting trounced because they have all the pvp resistance gear and stamina from farming pvp. Not to mention Arena (in WoW) having exclusivity on the best tiers at any given moment.

To get competitive in PvP requires a great deal of farming *in* PvP. And then content patches just add new tiers anyway to make you have to progress over and over. It is an issue when people who are legitimately skilled are outplayed simply because they haven't played enough. And in the case of WoW they are actively excluded by people purely on the basis of their gear score not being high enough. It is a frustrating, artificial treadmill.

It also penalizes new players granting the ones who play/practice the most progressively better gear while someone going in new for the first time simply wouldn't be able to hold their ground at all. With a level playing field in terms of stats on gear you can simply dive in and play without worries about needing a certain tier of armour, specific pvp resistance gear, etc.

You still get outfits and weapons that are different on a purely cosmetic level which is nice to have. You stand out, without that translating into making you inherently better than the competition. It is a skill based system, rather than gear based which I am certainly glad for. I got fed up with the artificial treadmill on WoW. I would raid regularly and slowly get gear over months. Then the next content patch would come out and everyone would just immediately be able to farm that set. The old content becomes worthless, as the better stats are in the next place, etc. Essentially culling off the games content in it's wake. It was a frustrating experience and I grew very tired of it.

I gladly welcome the idea of loot ultimately becoming a matter of cosmetics. That way all content can remain relevent, along with all the outfits. And some gear can remain a truly deep challenge to get. Which makes you stand out. Beats the gear tiering system in WoW, especially after months of hard work raiding going into a pug and having someone do 90% of their dps as auto attack, concussive shot a boss a bit. And stroll around with aspect of the cheetah. And they outgeared me.

There have been plenty of compelling competitive multiplayer games around without the detrimental gear feedback loop.

Anyway, as for Guild Wars 2 you have legendary weapons to work towards, hard to get armour sets (even though the stats are the same, you would still look impressive in them), pvp for the level playing field and enjoyable competition. The constantly cycling World vs World large scale conflicts between servers, etc. There are things for people to do and there is gear to get. It just dosn't equate to a statistical advantage over someone else. So there should be things to do and persue, it just dosn't make you inherently better than the competition, which I think will be a good thing :)

#14 Posted by wemibelec90 (1655 posts) -

@Giefcookie said:

Having fun?

#15 Posted by BaneFireLord (2933 posts) -

There's no point to anything. We're all just killing time until we curl up and die.

#16 Posted by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

@BaneFireLord said:

There's no point to anything. We're all just killing time until we curl up and die.

I'm pretty sure there's an achievement for that.

#17 Posted by shinboy630 (1139 posts) -

@CaLe said:

The point of most MMOs is to take your mind off of your broken life so it will still function in that regard.

I thought that was just the point of trying to troll MMO forums?

#18 Posted by theimmortalbum (495 posts) -

@Gravier251 said:

Loot is worth it progressing from 1-80. As for endgame being balanced item stat wise, and sPVP having set gear is a good thing I feel. Playing Guild Wars I can just jump into pvp, find the build that works for me and right away have a decent, balanced time. It is a refreshing change to jumping into pvp and in straight fights against someone getting trounced because they have all the pvp resistance gear and stamina from farming pvp. Not to mention Arena (in WoW) having exclusivity on the best tiers at any given moment.

To get competitive in PvP requires a great deal of farming *in* PvP. And then content patches just add new tiers anyway to make you have to progress over and over. It is an issue when people who are legitimately skilled are outplayed simply because they haven't played enough. And in the case of WoW they are actively excluded by people purely on the basis of their gear score not being high enough. It is a frustrating, artificial treadmill.

It also penalizes new players granting the ones who play/practice the most progressively better gear while someone going in new for the first time simply wouldn't be able to hold their ground at all. With a level playing field in terms of stats on gear you can simply dive in and play without worries about needing a certain tier of armour, specific pvp resistance gear, etc.

You still get outfits and weapons that are different on a purely cosmetic level which is nice to have. You stand out, without that translating into making you inherently better than the competition. It is a skill based system, rather than gear based which I am certainly glad for. I got fed up with the artificial treadmill on WoW. I would raid regularly and slowly get gear over months. Then the next content patch would come out and everyone would just immediately be able to farm that set. The old content becomes worthless, as the better stats are in the next place, etc. Essentially culling off the games content in it's wake. It was a frustrating experience and I grew very tired of it.

I gladly welcome the idea of loot ultimately becoming a matter of cosmetics. That way all content can remain relevent, along with all the outfits. And some gear can remain a truly deep challenge to get. Which makes you stand out. Beats the gear tiering system in WoW, especially after months of hard work raiding going into a pug and having someone do 90% of their dps as auto attack, concussive shot a boss a bit. And stroll around with aspect of the cheetah. And they outgeared me.

There have been plenty of compelling competitive multiplayer games around without the detrimental gear feedback loop.

Anyway, as for Guild Wars 2 you have legendary weapons to work towards, hard to get armour sets (even though the stats are the same, you would still look impressive in them), pvp for the level playing field and enjoyable competition. The constantly cycling World vs World large scale conflicts between servers, etc. There are things for people to do and there is gear to get. It just dosn't equate to a statistical advantage over someone else. So there should be things to do and persue, it just dosn't make you inherently better than the competition, which I think will be a good thing :)

I dig this. I was a hardcore raider in Vanilla and TBC, then again in Cataclysm for the first tier of content (pre-Firelands). One of the biggest drivers for me was simply the LOOK of the loot. The fact that I no longer have to do that insane time commitment (I'm married now and have a 7 month old daughter, the reason I quit raiding in Cataclysm) but can instead do mostly solo things to get the awesome looking gear is just stellar for me.

#19 Edited by Dixavd (1358 posts) -

This is how games like this should work. Just because someone happened to spend hundreds of hours of playtime before (And then had the lucky chance that the weapon dropped for them) doesn't mean they should automatically be better off than anyone else and able to outclass everyone else. This is a fantastic system because it says that in your story, in your PvE, you can get stronger and be the best - but when it comes to online actual skill comes into play.

It's like playing Dark Souls for hundreds of hours, getting the best weapons and armour in the game, and then invading a low level player and getting annoyed because they still have the ability to dodge every single one of your attacks (and backstab you) or parry them and counter. Its like arguing you have deserved the right over time to pummel those who have spent less time than you.

This is about going back to the old-WoW time where you could say "that guy must be good, look at that badass armour he has"; where it was a state of pride to have these rarer armour sets and not just something everyone had in less than a month because they needed it to even compete.

And this is coming from someone who has some serious problems with GW2, but this definitely isn't one of them (like, for instance, how way too much of the endgame seems to be spent breaking down doors - while I haven't played it and I am not planning to, of what I have seen, which is a lot, have involved way too much hammering on doors than actually seems enjoyable - especially on a retail packaged game which really doesn't require the filler that subscription-based or free-to-play games require to hold players back).

#20 Posted by project343 (2823 posts) -

@Kenobi said:

what's the point?

  • Cosmetic rewards
  • Achievements
  • Glory rank
  • Getting better
  • Fun?

Since you're fond of asking silly questions, I figure that I'll ask one: what's the appeal of walking into a PVP match in WoW, and getting one-hit killed by some dude who has clearly better gear than you and doubles your damage output in every way? What's the appeal in mashing your face against a system that ensures that he wins nearly every time because... numbers? That's fucking broken game design, and it's horrifically discouraging to new players who barely have a grasp of their newly-max level class.

@Kenobi said:

From what I have heard, not even your own armor is in PVP. Its a separate set. I did not read that, I over heard in on of the twitch.tv streams yesterday. Is that true then?

In the lobby (the Mists) there are weapon and armor vendors that will sell you whatever statistical gear you like. You can pick and choose certain sets for bonuses, pick particular stats to focus on, and equip sigils and whatnot to customize your playstyle. But everyone's given access to these same merchants. It's a level playing field.

#21 Edited by UssjTrunks (534 posts) -

@DeeGee said:

I'm really bummed out to hear that loot doesn't matter in PvP.

It kind of seems pointless to level up my character and find loot if it's not going to be useful anywhere but leveling up my character and finding loot.

You're bummed that the game values player skill over time played?

GW2 plays more like an FPS than an RPG in that it doesn't care how many hours you've invested into playing it. It only cares about how much skill you have. That's how all games should be.

#22 Posted by connerthekewlkid (1832 posts) -

@UssjTrunks: but shouldnt there be a reward for time played aswell?

#23 Posted by Kenobi (374 posts) -

When most content of mmos is based off of loot it is fair to ask where this game is coming from, therefore: what is the point of this one?

If my question reveals weak points or holes in a games logic it is not trolling~

This game is coming from a completely different direction most mmo's according to the posts I've read

Minus the 'hiding behind internet anonymity' criticisms, I will prolly get this.

#24 Posted by shinboy630 (1139 posts) -
@connerthekewlkid

@UssjTrunks: but shouldnt there be a reward for time played aswell?

There is, but the rewards don't break the balance, just make you look different.
#25 Posted by ShockD (2401 posts) -
@Kenobi said:

From gist of things. Any armor or weapons you get make no difference in pvp or wvw. It's basically WoW plus tf2? Cool looking things that don't really make a difference?

I'm probably going to get this but I'm wondering the dynamic of this game is exactly~

Is it achievements?

Tourneys?

I'm pretty sure that both in WoW and TF2 items make a significant difference towards winning the duel.
#26 Edited by Bahloo (47 posts) -

@connerthekewlkid said:

@UssjTrunks: but shouldnt there be a reward for time played aswell?

There is plenty of rewards. Many of them come with power, too. Only when players have reached a certain point in the game, the system shifts towards rewarding the player with cosmetic instead of more powerful items. Then true customization shines and everyone can play on an even level while shaping their own gaming experience.

#27 Posted by Krakn3Dfx (2490 posts) -

@CaLe said:

The point of most MMOs is to take your mind off of your broken life so it will still function in that regard.

You're right, cause I usually don't give a shit about what I wear in real life, but my toon needs to be looking top-f'ing notch or I'm just not doing it right.

#28 Posted by MrMazz (974 posts) -

The point is to look AWESOME and have giant shoulder pads with spikes on top of spikes.

#29 Posted by Tarkhein (71 posts) -

@Kenobi said:

When most content of mmos is based off of loot

Are you sure you have the right words there? Because the content of most MMOs is not loot but their gameplay. Sure, they might artificially extend the life of their game by making you look for better gear to compete but this game has no subscription fees so the gear treadmill exercise makes no sense.

therefore: what is the point of this one?

Assuming you have gear appropriate for your level, which you still need from 1-80, to enjoy the content of the game. In the case of sPvP where you are already level 80 with ready access to level 80 equipment, it's to win despite level and equipment parity.

If my question reveals weak points or holes in a games logic it is not trolling~

Yet playing devils advocate implies you prefer a system where you either:

1. You grind for better equipment for no reason. At that point, why?

2. You grind for better equipment to successfully complete content.

What Arenanet has done is remove those two situations, because they don't add to a game, content-wise.

#30 Posted by Pazy (2575 posts) -

@connerthekewlkid said:

@UssjTrunks: but shouldnt there be a reward for time played aswell?

If you played for a hundred hours, enjoyed the combat and dungeons then why do you need extra reward? You spent that time because you enjoyed what was happening. Personally, I dont need to be given a pat on the head enjoy playing a game.

If you require the game to reward you for the time spent then did you enjoy the time you spent?

#31 Posted by Ghost_Cat (1433 posts) -

I'm a material girl in a material world.

#32 Posted by project343 (2823 posts) -

@Kenobi said:

When most content of mmos is based off of loot it is fair to ask where this game is coming from, therefore: what is the point of this one?

If my question reveals weak points or holes in a games logic it is not trolling~

This game is coming from a completely different direction most mmo's according to the posts I've read

Minus the 'hiding behind internet anonymity' criticisms, I will prolly get this.

If you sit down and look at this game's PVP, it's much closer to a MOBA than traditional MMO "battlegrounds." It's incredibly skill-based, you don't have a preset gear advantage, the skill bar is concise and a lot of the gameplay concepts are immediately digestible for spectators.

Also, anyone who's calling you a troll doesn't know what a troll is and I recommend ignoring them.

#33 Posted by UssjTrunks (534 posts) -

@connerthekewlkid said:

@UssjTrunks: but shouldnt there be a reward for time played aswell?

Theoretically, you should become more skilled the more you play. That's your reward.

What reward do you get in Counter-Strike or StarCraft for time played? You get achievements, that's it. The cosmetic gear in GW2 is like an achievement system. I shows that you've played the game for hundreds of hours, but it doesn't give you an advantage over anyone else.

#34 Posted by Benny (1953 posts) -

You earn the better looking armor for prestige/aesthetics only. That's it. That's all you have ever done in any MMO ever, except in those games they made bosses 5% tougher and the loot they dropped 5% better meaning you had to progress in a linear fashion through dungeons to climb the gear treadmill.

In guild wars 2 you're not forced to run molten core for weeks to get to blackwing lair just because you want that sweet Tier 2 judgement armor for your paladin, you just play the fucking game however you like and make progress towards the armor/weapons/titles/dungeons you want to go after, and you will always be on a level playing field with everyone else, meaning from now until forever you can tackle any content you wish without having to grind out some stupid fucking fire resistance gear or grind rep for an incremental increase in gear score just so you'll be considered for a raid group.

I consider that one of the main draws. The ability to play the game how you like. Remember, you're playing a game, farming rep and gold and crafting mats and repeating raid after raid after raid as a prerequisite just so you can PLAY THE GAME is NOT having fun. At that point it's a chore.

#35 Posted by yyninja (59 posts) -

@Kenobi said:

From gist of things. Any armor or weapons you get make no difference in pvp or wvw. It's basically WoW plus tf2? Cool looking things that don't really make a difference?

I'm probably going to get this but I'm wondering the dynamic of this game is exactly~

Is it achievements?

Tourneys?

The equipment is all normalized so that the average max leveled player can get the best weapons and armor statistically. Essentially at the end game you don't get better gear statistically and you aren't leveling up.

Well then I'll ask this, what's the point of loot?

It's so that MMORPGs like WoW can make you play the game longer and pay for their subscription fees. GW2 doesn't have a subscription fee. The point of the game is to explore the world, get better as a player and play with friends. The point is not to grind the same encounter for hours/days just to get a shiny piece of loot that is essentially going to be obsolete in the near future.

Loot based games like WoW and D3 have played you for a fool, you're essentially chasing the proverbial carrot that is unobtainable.

#36 Posted by Dagbiker (6976 posts) -

I think its a commentary on socialism.

#37 Posted by Dark_Lord_Spam (3295 posts) -

It's a little disheartening to see questions like this so close to release. The point is that when you don't have to slog through the tedium of grind to be competitive, you're free to play however you like. Even if playing how you like involves slogging through a tedium of grind!

@Dixavd said:

And this is coming from someone who has some serious problems with GW2, but this definitely isn't one of them (like, for instance, how way too much of the endgame seems to be spent breaking down doors - while I haven't played it and I am not planning to, of what I have seen, which is a lot, have involved way too much hammering on doors than actually seems enjoyable - especially on a retail packaged game which really doesn't require the filler that subscription-based or free-to-play games require to hold players back).

What you're seeing there is extremely unskilled, zerg-y play in WvW. When assaulting keeps, it's vital to note that the various siege weapons have the same damage output as anywhere from five to thirty players. Any one of those door-hammering mobs could have been replaced by a couple of catapults or a battering ram, freeing them up to deal with the defenders.

#38 Posted by TheHT (11230 posts) -

@Kenobi said:

When most content of mmos is based off of loot it is fair to ask where this game is coming from, therefore: what is the point of this one?

If my question reveals weak points or holes in a games logic it is not trolling~

This game is coming from a completely different direction most mmo's according to the posts I've read

Minus the 'hiding behind internet anonymity' criticisms, I will prolly get this.

OK, here's the thing. There are 3 primary modes in GW2: Structured Player vs. Player (sPvP), World vs. World vs. World (WvW), and Player vs. Environment (PvE).

PvE has you levelling from 1-80, collecting loot that very much affects your character.

WvW has you and your servermates facing off against other servers' players. You can level from 1-80 in WvW, and loot very much affects your character here as well.

sPvP is arena based PvP, where there's a higher focus on skill/trait builds, teamwork, and skill. Here loot doesn't matter, keeping things focused on builds and teamwork and skill.

So, loot matters in WvW and PvE, but not in sPvP where the lackthereof keeps things more evenhanded there.

#39 Posted by Sanity (1906 posts) -

Yea, at first i was kinda put off about gear not really changing much stat wise but honestly i like it the more i think about it as with wow there is so much great content people never do because the loot is outdated. Ulduar is still the best damn raid tier they ever did imo but no one dose it because its not worth doing for gear.

#40 Posted by Benny (1953 posts) -
@dudy80 Good point well made, if blizzard wanted to add content to wow they had to make it have stronger drops than elsewhere or people would skip it.

I specifically remember zul
#41 Posted by Benny (1953 posts) -

Zul gurub being farmed for a purely aesthetic item (mounts) and that was it. There's an actual challenge in there too but nobody wanted to do it for the gameplay!

#42 Posted by TheHT (11230 posts) -

@dudy80: @Benny: If I recall correctly, when you play lower level content in GW2 you still get level-appropriate loot. That's loot appropriate to your actual level, not the content level.

#43 Posted by Benny (1953 posts) -
@TheHT You do indeed, level appropiate cash karma and xp as well, you lose nothing by being scaled down.
#44 Posted by Sanity (1906 posts) -

Yea, that sounds great really as wows biggest issue for me was you were always stuck in the same damn zones at max level until there was new content. I got really sick of staring at snow in wrath.

#45 Posted by FoolishChaos (437 posts) -

For me, high end loot was always about the appearance anyway. Don't care so much about having an statistical advantage over people in PvP, just not having a statistical disadvantage, and the PvE endgame treadmill never seemed particularly exciting.

#46 Posted by Jayzilla (2561 posts) -

Loot never mattered in GW1. It's all skins. What's the point of this thread again?

#47 Posted by Dixavd (1358 posts) -

@Dark_Lord_Spam said:

@Dixavd said:

And this is coming from someone who has some serious problems with GW2, but this definitely isn't one of them (like, for instance, how way too much of the endgame seems to be spent breaking down doors - while I haven't played it and I am not planning to, of what I have seen, which is a lot, have involved way too much hammering on doors than actually seems enjoyable - especially on a retail packaged game which really doesn't require the filler that subscription-based or free-to-play games require to hold players back).

What you're seeing there is extremely unskilled, zerg-y play in WvW. When assaulting keeps, it's vital to note that the various siege weapons have the same damage output as anywhere from five to thirty players. Any one of those door-hammering mobs could have been replaced by a couple of catapults or a battering ram, freeing them up to deal with the defenders.

Man do I hope so. It makes me so happy to know that there was at least a way of getting around 20 minutes of straight door-hitting-simulation. I have no interest in the game from a play-it-myself perspective (as it really isn't the kind of game I would enjoy) but I do like looking at all kinds of games from a design perspective (to hopefully make my own games later with ideas from all kinds of genres) but that specific thing seemed so out of place - it seemed to me like when I saw Den Defence from Assassin's Creed Revelations where I kept thinking "this is too limited and repetitive to add anything to the game - why is it here?". I understood its purpose as a sort of signal to enemies and people inside that they were going to be attacked and so they could set-up/react accordingly but it seemed like a really repetitive way of doing that - finding out it also pushes players towards teamwork to set up so that they can get these siege equipment ready is definitely a boost for the game for me.

#48 Posted by project343 (2823 posts) -

@Dixavd: I think most people weren't even fully aware how to build siege weapons or coordinate with others (squads and whatnot). I suspect that 2 weeks after launch, you'll be seeing a bunch of really compelling WvW. I mean, I've invested probably 80 hours into the game over the different betas. I couldn't tell you how to build siege items. I know that there are blueprints, and I think there's a vendor that sells 'em. But they also require supply, right? I think you get my point.

Plus, they're playing on servers and characters that they really couldn't care less about.

#49 Posted by connerthekewlkid (1832 posts) -

@Pazy: no but there should be a way to show other people that you spent 100 hours instead of just telling

#50 Posted by Pazy (2575 posts) -

@connerthekewlkid said:

@Pazy: no but there should be a way to show other people that you spent 100 hours instead of just telling

Thats where the cosmetic gear comes in. Every dungeon has its own unuiqe (visually) gear set you earn by running it many times. Theres also Legendary weapons which require a great time investment to get awesome/random effects on the weapons.

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