I don't like the idea of the downed system being in PVP

#1 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't like the idea of beating somebody only to have them get rallied and come back at me with potentially more health than I had when I originally beat them.

I love it in PVE, but I can't stand it in PVP.

#2 Posted by Dark_Lord_Spam (3156 posts) -

It just means there's an additional level of "strategery" required in sPvP matches. If you watch top-level players, you'll see them make this decision a lot: do I go for the finisher, ensuring an opponent is removed from the game for a longer period of time? Or do I go somewhere else that I'm needed, encouraging one or more of his team-mates to stop and help him up?

If that doesn't convince you, try thinking of it this way: they're not actually dead until they're actually dead.

#3 Posted by TaliciaDragonsong (8698 posts) -

I think its great, it will give players a chance to fight back/hold off enemies if they get ambushed, possibly even alert a teammate to being flanked or such because come on people don't communicate.
 
Its not the most perfect thing but yeah, design choice.

#4 Posted by Adaurin (186 posts) -

There's a FINISH THEM mechanic in pvp that takes a couple seconds to KO them for good.

#5 Posted by scalpel (314 posts) -

Yeah, that looks dumb.

#6 Posted by Cloudenvy (5891 posts) -

I like it a lot, I always do the finisher on them.

#7 Edited by UssjTrunks (534 posts) -

I like it. It adds another layer of depth.

For example, if the target has a single target knockdown (i.e. warrior), you need to have at least two people finishing him. If they have an AOE knockback (I.e. guardian) you need one guy to bait him, then another one come in and actually finish. It forces you to strategise on how you will finish people off. It also forces you to make decisions on whether you'll risk leaving someone in a downed state while you fight off a new threat, or whether you'll take some damage to finish someone off completely.

#8 Posted by Subjugation (4718 posts) -

It actually adds quite a bit more to consider in terms of strategy. A good handful of us just spent the entirety of today's stress test doing sPvP together and I can tell you that spending that 4 hours straight really drove home how crucial it is to consider finishing off your opponent or dealing with another pressing issue and just leaving them in the downed state temporarily. There are absolutely times to choose either of those options. 1v1 you obviously finish them and just move on with it. Group situations or engagements lopsided against you force you to consider all players before you commit to the finisher animation. It's certainly different than your standard hotkey mmo "pop all my cooldowns and blow this dude up and it's over" mentality because that tension of the player getting back on their feet if you don't address them is there.

It took some getting used to, but I like it.

#9 Edited by Evelgest (122 posts) -

In a game without dedicated healers, I think the system is imperative. I very much like Taugrim's explanation, so I'll leave it here.

When a player’s HP reaches 0, they drop into downed state (or as GW calls it “downed mode”). A downed player can not move and only has access to 4 abilities. The player get back on their feet with some HP and rejoin the fight if they are revived by another player, manage to self-heal sufficiently by spamming the downed 4 ability, or have an ability triggered by them or a friendly player that causes they to rally, which is instant. If an opponent is finished while a player is in down state, the latter player will rally.

It takes time to revive or finish a downed player, and there is where the complexity comes in. Finishing an opponent is a long cast (several seconds). It that time, that would-be finisher may be susceptible to CC (stun, knockback, fear, interrupt, knockdown) or blind. All of these effects will prevent the finish attempt from succeeding. That said, if the would-be finisher has Stability, they may be able to complete the finish and kill the downed target. This is why CC and CC counters (e.g. Stability) are key in this game. Some classes have stealth, and while stealthed you can finish or revive. In addition, the quickness boon halves cast times, so you can revive or finish twice as fast.

All these dynamics can make finishing and reviving players a game of feint-and-counter, where players have to outplay their opponents to complete a finish or revive.

I initially thought that the downed state mechanic was awkward, but once I got used to it and saw the impact that clutch finishes and revives had on gameplay, I became a big fan of it. The downed mechanic is partly what makes GW2 PVP so dynamic and skill-based: every player has to pay attention and manage downed opportunities skillfully and with coordination with friendlies.

Source: http://taugrim.com/2012/08/01/gw2-pvp-video-tips-for-reviving-and-finishing/

#10 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

I like it for the most parts. I hate that only the Thief is instantly capable of doing some dicking around when downed. Kinda makes me wanna roll Thief.

#11 Edited by Elitespy (48 posts) -
#12 Posted by Ubersmake (754 posts) -

I haven't played Guild Wars in a long, long, time, but I'm OK with this because I remember the "lightning spike" in the original Guild Wars. The technique was only viable for a short while, but pulling it off was super simple.

  1. Get into a PvP team with teammates who could all cast lightning spells. I think the skill in particular was Lightning Strike.
  2. Coordinate and single out one person on the other team during a match.
  3. Cast Lightning Strike(?) simultaneously.
  4. Laugh as the other guy takes so much damage that there's no chance for them to get healed.
  5. Run away, repeat.

Yes, the problem got fixed shortly through various nerfs and changes. This was a few months after the game was released. But as someone who played a warrior, I remember this as the most frustrating, rage-creating thing I ever had to deal with in PvP.

#13 Posted by Evelgest (122 posts) -

@Ubersmake: Spike teams were used quite often in GW1. Off the top of my head I can think of the Obsidian Spike Elementalists.

But GW2 is different; monks don't exist in GW2, making the downed state a necessary addition.

#14 Posted by Dark_Lord_Spam (3156 posts) -

@Ubersmake: You may be thinking of the Ride the Lightning elite skill. It would teleport you to your target before delivering the damage, so everyone on the team would bring a different touch skill to completely disable the enemy's defenses.

#15 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

Also worth noting - you're not out of the fight until they finish you.

It works both ways.

As a rifle warrior who has the downed state skill Vengeance and takes the trait Sweet Revenge, I love the "it ain't over till it's over" and "RUN BITCH I'VE GOT 15 SECONDS TO TAKE YOU DOWN AND WILL HOUND YOU LIKE A FUCKING DOG TO DO IT!" elements of the downed state for Warriors.

At least once, I have dropped someone by throwing rocks at them then gotten up with Vengeance, stomped them and proceeded to waltz off on my merry way : )

#16 Posted by Bahloo (47 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic said:

I love the "it ain't over till it's over" and "RUN BITCH I'VE GOT 15 SECONDS TO TAKE YOU DOWN AND WILL HOUND YOU LIKE A FUCKING DOG TO DO IT!" elements of the downed state for Warriors.

At least once, I have dropped someone by throwing rocks at them then gotten up with Vengeance, stomped them and proceeded to waltz off on my merry way : )

You, sir, just scared the crap out of me!

At first, I didn't find myself appreciating the downed state much. As I had never experienced anything like it before, it felt strange, almost awkward at times. It was actually one of the few things I was very skeptical about before pre-ordering. Even though I could see the potential appeal of having it ingame, its potential effect on sPvP and single players taking on a couple of enemey dudes had me worried.

Now that we have been able to dip into the game I feel a lot more comfortable with this mechanic. It adds a nice flavor and a certain unexpected level of depth to sPvP. Once you spend some time playing around and getting used to it, it starts to grow on you. Of course this also means having additional elements which the devs have to keep monitored and strongly balanced. I'm quite excited to see how this will play out further down the road and how it will effect the game and its meta gameplay.

#17 Posted by SirPsychoSexy (1327 posts) -

I personally can't stand it. Maybe I am old school, but when I see someone's HP hit 0 I like to know that they are dead. I think it is a cool feature in PvE, but this along with the lack of world PvP really gives me doubts about playing any PvP in this game.

#18 Posted by Dark_Lord_Spam (3156 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic said:

Also worth noting - you're not out of the fight until they finish you.

It works both ways.

As a rifle warrior who has the downed state skill Vengeance and takes the trait Sweet Revenge, I love the "it ain't over till it's over" and "RUN BITCH I'VE GOT 15 SECONDS TO TAKE YOU DOWN AND WILL HOUND YOU LIKE A FUCKING DOG TO DO IT!" elements of the downed state for Warriors.

At least once, I have dropped someone by throwing rocks at them then gotten up with Vengeance, stomped them and proceeded to waltz off on my merry way : )

You warriors are the fucking worst. I keep knocking you down, but you keep getting back up.

#19 Posted by Subjugation (4718 posts) -

@Dark_Lord_Spam: As a warrior, I present this as their official anthem. I think it plays to your feelings.

#20 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@Subjugation said:

@Dark_Lord_Spam: As a warrior, I present this as their official anthem. I think it plays to your feelings.

Fuck yeah.

Also - I've never not referred to that song as "I get knocked down", never knew it went by "Tubthumping".

#21 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

@SirPsychoSexy said:

...but this along with the lack of world PvP really gives me doubts about playing any PvP in this game.

There's an entire flipping continent built just for flippin' open world PvP? Including actual open world PvP mechanics, giving the whole thing purpose beyond merely killing passersby. What are you smoking?

Or do you mean open world PvP, as in harassing people who don't actually engage in PvP, but rather are questing? As in ganking unsuspecting PvE'ers with your favorite squad of virtual lowlife goons?

#22 Edited by SirPsychoSexy (1327 posts) -

@Seppli said:

@SirPsychoSexy said:

I personally can't stand it. Maybe I am old school, but when I see someone's HP hit 0 I like to know that they are dead. I think it is a cool feature in PvE, but this along with the lack of world PvP really gives me doubts about playing any PvP in this game.

There's an entire flipping continent built just for flippin' open world PvP? Including actual open world PvP mechanics, giving the whole thing purpose beyond merely killing passersby. What are you smoking?

Or do you mean open world PvP, as in harassing people who don't actually engage in PvP, but rather are questing? As in ganking unsuspecting PvE'ers with your favorite squad of virtual lowlife goons?

Damn looks like I struck a sore spot. Last time I checked a zone dedicated to PvP doesn't count as open world PvP. I am talking about epic battles that can occur anywhere in the world at anytime, whether it is a few people questing or armies of people defending a city. The most fun I ever had in WoW was the Tarren Mill, South Shore battles. It is a big deal for me and something I am sad to see not in GW2.

#23 Edited by shinboy630 (1133 posts) -

@SirPsychoSexy said:

@Seppli said:

@SirPsychoSexy said:

I personally can't stand it. Maybe I am old school, but when I see someone's HP hit 0 I like to know that they are dead. I think it is a cool feature in PvE, but this along with the lack of world PvP really gives me doubts about playing any PvP in this game.

There's an entire flipping continent built just for flippin' open world PvP? Including actual open world PvP mechanics, giving the whole thing purpose beyond merely killing passersby. What are you smoking?

Or do you mean open world PvP, as in harassing people who don't actually engage in PvP, but rather are questing? As in ganking unsuspecting PvE'ers with your favorite squad of virtual lowlife goons?

Damn looks like I struck a sore spot. Last time I checked a zone dedicated to PvP doesn't count as open world PvP. I am talking about epic battles that can occur anywhere in the world at anytime, whether it is a few people questing or armies of people defending a city. The most fun I ever had in WoW was the Tarren Mill, South Shore battles. It is a big deal for me and something I am sad to see not in GW2.

I dunno about the rest of you guys but that sounds like WvW to me, with "the world" being one of the 4 massive WvW zones.

#24 Posted by SirPsychoSexy (1327 posts) -

@shinboy630 said:

@SirPsychoSexy said:

@Seppli said:

@SirPsychoSexy said:

I personally can't stand it. Maybe I am old school, but when I see someone's HP hit 0 I like to know that they are dead. I think it is a cool feature in PvE, but this along with the lack of world PvP really gives me doubts about playing any PvP in this game.

There's an entire flipping continent built just for flippin' open world PvP? Including actual open world PvP mechanics, giving the whole thing purpose beyond merely killing passersby. What are you smoking?

Or do you mean open world PvP, as in harassing people who don't actually engage in PvP, but rather are questing? As in ganking unsuspecting PvE'ers with your favorite squad of virtual lowlife goons?

Damn looks like I struck a sore spot. Last time I checked a zone dedicated to PvP doesn't count as open world PvP. I am talking about epic battles that can occur anywhere in the world at anytime, whether it is a few people questing or armies of people defending a city. The most fun I ever had in WoW was the Tarren Mill, South Shore battles. It is a big deal for me and something I am sad to see not in GW2.

I dunno about the rest of you guys but that sounds like WvW to me.

Except the whole anywhere in the world part.

#25 Posted by Subjugation (4718 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic: Yeah, I searched "Chumbawamba I get knocked down" on Google ... not "Tubthumping". The more you know! ... I guess.

#26 Posted by shinboy630 (1133 posts) -

@SirPsychoSexy: I edited my post to clarify "the world", but still PvP in PvE zones is never fun from my experience. If I want to PvP I will go to the PvP area.

#27 Posted by Subjugation (4718 posts) -

@shinboy630: @shinboy630: My experience with open world PvP in WoW was that it more or less boiled down to ganking lowbies, griefing them until they logged out, or similarly catching someone else with their pants down. The most "open world PvP" I experienced was people camping the entrance to Icecrown Citadel, obliterating people who were trying to zone back in to the raid instance but got spawned outside because the encounter wasn't over (the group hadn't fully wiped yet). It wasn't PvP, it was griefing.

I've been on both sides of that experience and it was mediocre at best in terms of fun, even when we raided Thunder Bluff, Undercity, (the vacant) Silvermoon, and eventually the bustling Orgrimmar. It always ends in corpse camping and one side outnumbering the other, resulting in a win. Open world PvP is for people who want to engage others on uneven terms.

#28 Posted by shinboy630 (1133 posts) -

@Subjugation: Yeah I've played a few games with a similar system (Aion for one, but the game was bad so maybe that's why I didn't like it), and they were never fun.

#29 Edited by UssjTrunks (534 posts) -

: I've never played WoW but that sounds like a really stupid feature. PvE and PvP should never mix. GW2 sounds like it found the right balance with WvW.

#30 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

@SirPsychoSexy said:

@shinboy630 said:

@SirPsychoSexy said:

@Seppli said:

@SirPsychoSexy said:

I personally can't stand it. Maybe I am old school, but when I see someone's HP hit 0 I like to know that they are dead. I think it is a cool feature in PvE, but this along with the lack of world PvP really gives me doubts about playing any PvP in this game.

There's an entire flipping continent built just for flippin' open world PvP? Including actual open world PvP mechanics, giving the whole thing purpose beyond merely killing passersby. What are you smoking?

Or do you mean open world PvP, as in harassing people who don't actually engage in PvP, but rather are questing? As in ganking unsuspecting PvE'ers with your favorite squad of virtual lowlife goons?

Damn looks like I struck a sore spot. Last time I checked a zone dedicated to PvP doesn't count as open world PvP. I am talking about epic battles that can occur anywhere in the world at anytime, whether it is a few people questing or armies of people defending a city. The most fun I ever had in WoW was the Tarren Mill, South Shore battles. It is a big deal for me and something I am sad to see not in GW2.

I dunno about the rest of you guys but that sounds like WvW to me.

Except the whole anywhere in the world part.

Sounds to me like you haven't played a second of WvW in your life. It has exactly that South Shore vs Tarrens Mill feel to it, plus actually defendable and destructible settlements, alongside siege weaponry and a RTS-like economy supporting the action. And your so called 'zone', is roughly the size of the new landmass found in an average WoW expansion...

Certainly looks like open world PvP to me...

#31 Edited by Evelgest (122 posts) -

@SirPsychoSexy said:

@Seppli said:

@SirPsychoSexy said:

I personally can't stand it. Maybe I am old school, but when I see someone's HP hit 0 I like to know that they are dead. I think it is a cool feature in PvE, but this along with the lack of world PvP really gives me doubts about playing any PvP in this game.

There's an entire flipping continent built just for flippin' open world PvP? Including actual open world PvP mechanics, giving the whole thing purpose beyond merely killing passersby. What are you smoking?

Or do you mean open world PvP, as in harassing people who don't actually engage in PvP, but rather are questing? As in ganking unsuspecting PvE'ers with your favorite squad of virtual lowlife goons?

Damn looks like I struck a sore spot. Last time I checked a zone dedicated to PvP doesn't count as open world PvP. I am talking about epic battles that can occur anywhere in the world at anytime, whether it is a few people questing or armies of people defending a city. The most fun I ever had in WoW was the Tarren Mill, South Shore battles. It is a big deal for me and something I am sad to see not in GW2.

  1. "Epic battles that can occur anywhere" Check.
  2. "Whether it is a few people questing or armies of people defending a city" Check.
  3. Ganking low level characters or griefing people trying to just quest. Nope. Not fun for both parties.

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