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    Guild Wars 2

    Game » consists of 3 releases. Released Aug 28, 2012

    Guild Wars 2 is an online RPG developed by ArenaNet, and continues the subscriptionless business model of the original Guild Wars. The game is set about 250 years after the events of its predecessor in a world devastated by the ancient elder dragons resurfacing after millennia of slumber.

    I think i'm done with Guild Wars 2, a month after release.

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    Barrock

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    #51  Edited By Barrock

    People dismissing the story make me sad. I've really enjoyed my Engineer's story.

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    Benny

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    #52  Edited By Benny

    @Irvandus said:

    It's a 60 dollar game. Since when is it only holding your attention for a MONTH an issue. It's not a subscription. This is similar to all the dumb stuff that happened with Diablo.

    Anyway that little rant out of the way. Take a break, come back when you're ready. It's just burnout and not the fun kind with cars.

    Totally, it's kinda cool that you could just buy the game and play it like any other RPG like a dragon age or final fantasy and get hundreds of hours of constant fun out of it (for me it's never felt like a grind) and then come back to it in a few months to discover hundreds more hours of brand new content that the devs will be releasing to everyone for free.

    Make it the game you want to play, don't turn it into a commitment, it'll always be there and you don't have to pay a penny more.

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    darksergant

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    #53  Edited By darksergant

    people should not quit considering the future expansion will unlock the rest of the world (cantha,elona)

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    Fallen189

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    #54  Edited By Fallen189

    This is a legitimately interesting and insightful thread. Props.

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    Seppli

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    #55  Edited By Seppli

    @avidwriter said:

    @mortal_sb said:

    to close things off: WATER COMBAT AND UNDERWATER EVENTS ARE THE WORST.

    Could not agree with you more. I don't know why they tried to "fix" underwater combat. Just leave it out, there is no reason to do that. Underwater sucks, period. Getting attack from 360 degrees is never fun. Ever.

    At least for pet classes Underwater combat is indeed weak. Mobs tend to go 'invulnerable' to either me or my pet. That said, I just spent 9 gold on a lvl 80 exotic berserker spear and a harpoon gun of equal quality and stats - so it can't be all bad. As a big fan of underwater content in vanilla WoW, I enjoyed it regardless, though they'd better have fixing these issues high up on their to-fix priorities list.

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    Seppli

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    #56  Edited By Seppli

    Endgame-wise, starting to play WvW a little more seriously now, being all decked out in Exotics and ready to kick some ass - tagging along some better organized veterans - it's bloody amazing. Players building siege weapons at strategic points, holding down chokepoints from mountain ridges, tearing down castle walls, huge skirmishes with houndreds of players - it's unbelieveable at times. Can't wait to join up with a big active WvW guild and run this stuff with dozens of players in VoiP. Even vanilla Alterac was a childerns birthday in comparison.

    Randomly met up with some former WoW associates, many of which are DAoC veterans - and they're pretty much floating on cloud 9. WvW's crazy good.

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    project343

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    #57  Edited By project343

    @mortal_sb: What's your /age (playtime)? I'm at about 200 hours and have barely done anything. I've been playing Guild Wars 2 pretty well non-stop since release with the time that I have available to me.

    I tend to completely disagree with everything you've stated (aside from the itemization--that needs work). It just seems like you don't care much for/appreciate ArenaNet's design philosophies: no real effort being needed to get top-tier statistical gear, gear is all about collecting skins (which you don't seem to like either way), and recipes are all about discovery and finding karma recipes with a relatively low skill/time ceiling.

    To your final point on events: it's entirely based on the mindset of that you come into the game with. If events are obstacles keeping you from 80, you're going to have a rough time; if events are spry, random adventures that you're excited to see through, then you'll have a great time. There are certainly limited interactions that you can have in an MMO--there's a bit of a tech constraint on that one. Currently they all operate under the limitations of the "five d's" (destroy, defend, deliver, drop, discover), but I think Guild Wars 2 easily has the best quest design/event design in the genre--so how can you complain? Some moments that happen (either narratively or via gameplay) are so special with this event system.

    I was exploring a tomb area in Harathi Hinterlands, minding my own business. I finished the heart and there weren't any events going on--I was just exploring for exploration's sake. I found a fancy looking spot that said something along the lines of 'kneeling will bring you closer to the gods.' And so I did a /kneel, and a beautiful and huge spirit came out with all sorts of dialogue. It was a spirit of Dwayna, one of the human gods, who taught me a bit about the history of the place. I thought that was all well and good, but then she mentions that the tomb has become corrupt and needs someone to cleanse it of a particular evil soul. After the dialogue ended, there was no event, nothing. I figured it was just flavour text. I went around and found a big ominous looking burial location at the center of the big room and figured that this was for the spirit she wanted dead. In the text, she said that speaking his name will bring him forward. So I did a /say and spoke his name out loud. His spirit came rushing out and had quite a few lines of recorded dialogue then promptly turned into a really great boss event thing (Veteran). And there's a ton of stuff like that in the game if you take your time to enjoy it.

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    Seppli

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    #58  Edited By Seppli

    @project343:

    Great anecdote. Simply love that kind of thing. NPCs often hint at hidden secret adventures to be had, and damn if it isn't the most amazing thing to discover them by chance and curiosity.

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    mortal_sb

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    #59  Edited By mortal_sb

    @project343 said:

    @mortal_sb: What's your /age (playtime)? I'm at about 200 hours and have barely done anything. I've been playing Guild Wars 2 pretty well non-stop since release with the time that I have available to me.

    it's under 180 hours. including times where i had gw2 minimized in my taskbar.

    @project343 said:

    I tend to completely disagree with everything you've stated (aside from the itemization--that needs work). It just seems like you don't care much for/appreciate ArenaNet's design philosophies: no real effort being needed to get top-tier statistical gear, gear is all about collecting skins (which you don't seem to like either way), and recipes are all about discovery and finding karma recipes with a relatively low skill/time ceiling.

    skins are the equivalent to stickers. what use are they, when they don't deliver stats-wise what they're promising looks-wise? just yesterday evening, i transmutated one of the low-levelest cloth breasts with my lvl 80 exotic one, because the lvl 80 looked like ass. discovery is not "look at all those items you've got! just pull them in and WE tell you what's ok or not!". you don't have to do a thing except dragging items around. the only cool profession where this works though is the cook. as a taylor, you'll know what you'll get when you combine two head pieces with an insignia of the berserker.

    To your final point on events: it's entirely based on the mindset of that you come into the game with. If events are obstacles keeping you from 80, you're going to have a rough time; if events are spry, random adventures that you're excited to see through, then you'll have a great time. There are certainly limited interactions that you can have in an MMO--there's a bit of a tech constraint on that one. Currently they all operate under the limitations of the "five d's" (destroy, defend, deliver, drop, discover), but I think Guild Wars 2 easily has the best quest design/event design in the genre--so how can you complain? Some moments that happen (either narratively or via gameplay) are so special with this event system.

    i came in to the game with a mindset to have a great time. i played the beta and thought that the events and quests were pretty fun. but as you said: they all operate under limitations. the thing is: those limitations don't have to exist anymore. look at all the other new mmorpgs that are doing quests that are way more exciting then grinding kills or picking up mortar shells. they don't work as "oh look, i'm just running around here, doing my thing and i'm also doing some quest! how neat!". and they don't work that way, because except from the jumping puzzles, the quests and events are the only things that keep this world filled and interesting. there's barely a place in one of the map zones that has a kind of history, even when they're called "point of interest". (there's no backstory to like 90% of the POIs so they're just dots on the map. what should i care more?")

    maybe i'm too sophisticated or demanding, but the quest design is just boring for me. there are no challenges, no stories. period.

    I was exploring a tomb area in Harathi Hinterlands, minding my own business. I finished the heart and there weren't any events going on--I was just exploring for exploration's sake. I found a fancy looking spot that said something along the lines of 'kneeling will bring you closer to the gods.' And so I did a /kneel, and a beautiful and huge spirit came out with all sorts of dialogue. It was a spirit of Dwayna, one of the human gods, who taught me a bit about the history of the place. I thought that was all well and good, but then she mentions that the tomb has become corrupt and needs someone to cleanse it of a particular evil soul. After the dialogue ended, there was no event, nothing. I figured it was just flavour text. I went around and found a big ominous looking burial location at the center of the big room and figured that this was for the spirit she wanted dead. In the text, she said that speaking his name will bring him forward. So I did a /say and spoke his name out loud. His spirit came rushing out and had quite a few lines of recorded dialogue then promptly turned into a really great boss event thing (Veteran). And there's a ton of stuff like that in the game if you take your time to enjoy it.

    that's great. but in 4 years, they could've done more to fill the world with these kind of evens. jumping puzzles and vistas are nice, but they're not very involving story-wise. they were to casual about a lot of things in my opinions.

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    Seppli

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    #60  Edited By Seppli

    @mortal_sb said:

    @project343 said:

    @mortal_sb: What's your /age (playtime)? I'm at about 200 hours and have barely done anything. I've been playing Guild Wars 2 pretty well non-stop since release with the time that I have available to me.

    it's under 180 hours. including times where i had gw2 minimized in my taskbar.

    Getting to lvl 80? Maximizing a type of gear? 100% map completion? Ran every explorable path in the dungeons? Either you're a liar, or you are crazy effective - running through this game like a racehorse with blinders on. I'm at the 280 hours mark and I'm not even close to having 'checked off' boxes like you pretend to have done.

    Look. It takes some effort and time to take in a world. If you don't read the fluff and lore. If you don't look at the world, at how it's filled to the brim with detail and context and tasty morsels of ingenuity and love - of course you'll miss the point. I can't fathom your stance on GW2's worldbuilding for example - it's the best crafted and most alive MMO world to date - without the slightest doubt.

    Project343's anecdote? Every zone is brimming with such possibilities of discovery and adventure - and genuine unscripted interaction with a virtual world. Obviously you didn't find any of the magic, because it's quite impossible to see something, you aren't looking for.

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    mortal_sb

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    #61  Edited By mortal_sb

    i did everything you listed, except "ran every explorable path in the dungeons". but i won't do that. you know why? because the reward for it is not enough. there's no point to do it when it's no fun to get rewarded for it. so why should i do it? why should i clock more hours into the game, when the encounters are not very intuitive and the the npcs are broken half the time (just yesterday, we did another dungeon run and the NPC was broken again, halfway through it. you know what that does to my motivation? it kills it.) to check the last few boxes? no, i won't. i'm not the type that completes every game a 100%, hell, i've probably S-ranked only 2 games on my xbox. I played the game as i liked to play it. I reached a certain level, got into the zone that was for my level (i even switched around between the different areas because the kryta maps all look the same. they're so boring. the same green hills, the same blue streams of water, the same enemies, over and over again. it forces you to switch zones. good thing the personal quest send you off in some different directions) and i completed that zone if i was in the mood for it. i played sPVP and WvW more then often in the meantime but still, the content just flew by.

    describe some situations where the world is "fillled to the brim with detail and context and tasty morsels of ingenuity and love". it didn't feel any of that. i does not feel like a world that was created with love like the open world of a lord of the rings online or WoW, it feels forced.

    and man, 400 hours? i think your level of tolerance is just way higher then mine. (don't forget: leveling to 80 and maximizing your gear and professions is one fluid motion. i would say that i did 15-20 level of my lvl 80 char with crafting only. it's nice that the cogs are so well oiled, but they're moving to fast.)

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    uniform

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    #62  Edited By uniform

    @Seppli said:

    Endgame-wise, starting to play WvW a little more seriously now, being all decked out in Exotics and ready to kick some ass - tagging along some better organized veterans - it's bloody amazing. Players building siege weapons at strategic points, holding down chokepoints from mountain ridges, tearing down castle walls, huge skirmishes with houndreds of players - it's unbelieveable at times. Even vanilla Alterac was a childerns birthday in comparison.

    WvWvW is fantastic. It's hard for me to say it's better than original AV. Rose-tinted glasses possibly at work here, but there was something special about AV. I remember it like it was yesterday when BGs had their debut, just AV and WSG. I was one of those players that did the back and forth between SS and TM as well as Ratchet and Xroads. I loved that laggy mess of World PVP, so I was naturally worried that the BGs would be the death of it. Sure enough, they were. However, AV made me think it wasn't such a bad trade off. A fantastic mix of PVE and PVP. The PVE NPCs made the battle feel all the more epic in scale. Then, several years later, change after change, the place is a loathsome husk of its once greatness. I knew WoW would never bring something like original AV back, so I figured I'd never experience that enjoyment again. Fortunately, WvWvW is making me feel that excitement for large scale PVP that I had lost many years ago. The scale of these "Battlegrounds" are pretty massive, and you do feel like you're in an ongoing war..just like original AV. The third enemy (server) dynamic is kind of a tough sell for me right now, as we (Yak's) are kind of getting tag teamed in Eternal by two servers that could probably beat us by themselves. Still an interesting dynamic, but there's always going to be one server that gets overwhelmed when two servers have a truce to fight a common enemy.

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    Seppli

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    #63  Edited By Seppli

    @mortal_sb:

    Just checked ./age, I'm only at 280h - thank the gods.

    As for the worldbuilding. I can literally stumble over a hole in the wall, and suddenly I'm on a hours long dungeon crawl in a gigantic underground maze. Hazardous traps. Dangerous enemies. Genuine challenge. Imbued with quality lore, and even more often, subtle humor. Happens all the time.

    Did you ever just talk to NPCs? Read their dialog? Go after clues they give you? Genuinely interact with the game, rather than just looking at the top right corner of your client and work off the checklist at hand? Take the time to take in the whole breadth and quality of GW2's open world content?

    I highly doubt it - because otherwise you'd not even have to ask. It's amazingly detailed and full of life and evidently crafted with love. The NPC chatter alone should bring a tear of joy to one's eye, if one had a heart.

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    El_Mahico

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    #64  Edited By El_Mahico

    "describe some situations where the world is "fillled to the brim with detail and context and tasty morsels of ingenuity and love". it didn't feel any of that. i does not feel like a world that was created with love like the open world of a lord of the rings online or WoW, it feels forced."

    That has to be the funniest thing I have read by you so far. It's like you literally just power leveled through the whole game and ignored the enormous amount of hidden content that's out there. Just the fact that you throw LOTRO out there to try and compare to the open world feeling this game has is ridiculous lol. All of your points become invalid to me just because of that quote.

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    WinterSnowblind

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    #65  Edited By WinterSnowblind

    Anyone who's hit 80, completed all of the dungeons and hit 100% of map completion, has either ran through the game as fast as possible or has literally done nothing else but play the game, in which case, I'm not surprised you're feeling burnt out. Don't confuse "I've been playing this game non stop for over a month and don't feel like playing any more" with "there's nothing to do!!".

    I've been playing the game for a considerable amount of time and I'm only at around 70% world completion, I've done 3 of the dungeons on story mode and barely touched WvW.

    This is not a small amount of time
    This is not a small amount of time

    I really do think it's a shame people that people ignore the world so much. It's easily one of the best RPG worlds created in a very long time and the amount of detail and background rivals something like Skyrim. Yet very few people seem to take the time to actually stop and talk to NPC's. Do you know the history of Lion's Arch? How the fountain in the centre was created? Have you met Dougal Keen, visited Kileen's grave or the ruins of the Temple of Ages? The points of interest do have a history and story behind them, you just actually have to talk to people. Not run past everyone, skipping as much dialogue as humanly possible. Not to mention each of the 5 races has a unique story (up to level 20 or so) with multiple options, which do change the based on your selections. And what about the sheer number of dynamic events? While I'd agree that it's disappointing how often many of them cycle, there's still a lot to see and simply exploring around the areas will likely turn up at least a few you haven't played before. At the very least, you might come across a hidden area with a jumping puzzle, which are usually a lot of fun and require a good amount of time work and thought. There's no way you've completed all of those either, unless you've been following the Wiki to a T.

    I think people are also ignoring the gear progression, which is the main thing that drives most other MMO's and is actually present here too, it just isn't immediately obvious without a little exploration. While "better" weapons don't actually provide a stat bonus, you're able to craft a lot of very fancy weapons using the mystic forge and hidden recipes, most of which still haven't been discovered and are supposed to be a stepping stone towards creating legendary weapons and all look far more distinct than the weapons you'll typically find as random loot drops.

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    project343

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    #66  Edited By project343

    @mortal_sb said:

    it's under 180 hours. including times where i had gw2 minimized in my taskbar.

    That sounds completely impossible to me, but I'll take your word for it.

    I disagree with everything else you've said and don't feel like elaborating on an entirely subjective back-and-forth argument. This game isn't for you and I'm sorry about your $60. Perhaps you should have read into the game a bit more before making the dive.

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    EXTomar

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    #67  Edited By EXTomar

    Lore is nice but game play is key. I also think the gear progression in Guild Wars 2 is a bit obtuse at best and completely random at worse. On my main character, I would progress through the game looking at every gold and karma vendor I came across looking for upgrades and rarely found them. Any upgrade I had came from a story quest or from a random drop. Even then, I still have no shoulder slot armor on that character. I have no idea let alone plan to upgrade that character. Without that I have no goal beyond "Wander around some more" which is not good.

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    mortal_sb

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    #68  Edited By mortal_sb

    @project343 said:

    @mortal_sb said:

    it's under 180 hours. including times where i had gw2 minimized in my taskbar.

    That sounds completely impossible to me, but I'll take your word for it.

    I disagree with everything else you've said and don't feel like elaborating on an entirely subjective back-and-forth argument. This game isn't for you and I'm sorry about your $60. Perhaps you should have read into the game a bit more before making the dive.

    No Caption Provided

    and really: i just played. i didn't want to be 80 as fast as i can or complete the world as fast as i did. i did it because it was one of the things i could do (i helped friends that got later into the game too), after hitting 80 and finishing the story.

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    mortal_sb

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    #69  Edited By mortal_sb

    @Big_Mex said:

    "describe some situations where the world is "fillled to the brim with detail and context and tasty morsels of ingenuity and love". it didn't feel any of that. i does not feel like a world that was created with love like the open world of a lord of the rings online or WoW, it feels forced."

    That has to be the funniest thing I have read by you so far. It's like you literally just power leveled through the whole game and ignored the enormous amount of hidden content that's out there. Just the fact that you throw LOTRO out there to try and compare to the open world feeling this game has is ridiculous lol. All of your points become invalid to me just because of that quote.

    i played LOTR for 1-2 months and i found the world to be better and more interesting. hey, my opinion. fuck me, right?

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    Seppli

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    #70  Edited By Seppli

    @EXTomar said:

    Lore is nice but game play is key. I also think the gear progression in Guild Wars 2 is a bit obtuse at best and completely random at worse. On my main character, I would progress through the game looking at every gold and karma vendor I came across looking for upgrades and rarely found them. Any upgrade I had came from a story quest or from a random drop. Even then, I still have no shoulder slot armor on that character. I have no idea let alone plan to upgrade that character. Without that I have no goal beyond "Wander around some more" which is not good.

    Seems to me you lack basic MMO know-how. It's partly GW2's fault, that it throws players in the deep end without much of an introduction to basic systems - but with any effort on your part, or prior knowledge of the genre - it's not rocketscience getting into it.

    You won't get any shoulder and head gear until lvl 10. From then on out, you can buy basic quality gear from every armor vendor in the world. Mastercraft & Rare & Exotic gear is dirtcheap in the trading post in lower levels - it's literally a global marketplace with millions of traders and crafters and gatherers and customers. Personally, I didn't spend a single copper on gear until I was lvl 80 and started going for Exotics rather than bank space and character slots. Gathered and crafted pretty much all of my gear leveling up - transmuted lots of it for more visual sexiness (thanks to the free transmutation stones from exploration). I hate to break it to you, but you're doing it wrong. There are myriads of ways to get by gear-wise, and have fun doing so.

    I often read how players dislike the normalized itemization. I can see how that can be true, if your playstyle is unchanging. I use all my weapons & weaponskills - switch 'em out regularly - I playtest various loadouts & builds & specs in sPvP - which I intend to turn into 'real' gear and playstyle possibilities for PvE & WvW. Next up I'll get me a set of Exotic Shaman Gear (Toughness, Healing Power, Condition Damage), which will do amazing things for explorable dungeons. I love mixing shit up. If I had to deal with more than 4 quality tiers of gear like in most other MMOs - or even a sheer infinite amount of RNG on attributes/item-levels as found in loot-centric action RPGs - being versatile and competitive would just become a complete and utter hassle, and any semblance of balance would go right out of the window.

    ArenaNet should definitely look into making their prestige gear grind more granular, because players are a lazy and dumb people, whom tend to do what's most efficient over what's most fun. Overcoming challenge for its own sake? That'd be like playing for naught, when it comes to players like the thread creator. On average - players gravitate towards the easiest and quickest paths of progression in order to get their 'bragworthy' shinies. Sadly these players miss the point, and sadly this is one of ArenaNet's shortcomings when it comes to GW2's design. Failing to make prestige items bragworthy - which should have been done by attaching real gameplay achievements to obtaining them. Sadly - that's just not the case, if you can grind out your tokens on the easiest boss encounters in the dungeons, and still get access to all the shinies.

    Then again. I don't give to fucks. Oddo's looking more badass than any of them grinders, all with maximized stats, and I've not run a dungeon twice yet (a majority not at all yet, to be honest). Sure - I understand the appeal of chasing a carrot on a stick, and it's there. It may be not as rewarding as in games like WoW or Diablo 3 with infinite incremental attribute increases, but that's for good reasons - namely putting balance and playabilty and approachability before fostering obsessive compulsive behaviour - avoiding gamedesign forcing players into indulging in such stupidity. Also - it lets everyone play the game, even if you cannot sink houndreds of hours into it, like I do.

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    project343

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    #71  Edited By project343

    @mortal_sb: Well, I certainly have an admiration for your efficiency. I hit 80 at around 100 hours. I'm now at 200 hours with 85% map completion and 3/11 exotics. I haven't been "shooting" to get the exotics. I've just been exploring, playing with friends in low level zones, doing jumping puzzles, hanging out with guildies, doing WvW, and been exploring other professions.

    I don't think this game is meant for continued hardcore play over hundreds/thousands of hours. There isn't much of a gear treadmill because there doesn't need to be with the lack of a subscription fee. So far I've played it consistently more than any other MMO I've ever played. My usual MMO shelf life is 3 weeks--I can never get into raiding or end-game gear grindy stuff. Maybe this is just the sort of MMO designed for me--the incredibly casual player.

    @EXTomar: Wandering around is sort of the pace of the game and what makes it so special. If you need more direction and a more opaque reward system, I'd say that this game isn't for you. I think a proper comparison is Skyrim (obviously with a lot more world event stuff and no 'questlog' stuff).

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    Bobby_The_Great

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    #72  Edited By Bobby_The_Great
    @mortal_sb: I agree completely. There is just something about this game that doesn't give me the "urge" to continue. I know it's a narcissistic thing, really--I'm a Charr Warrior--my armor hasn't change at all. I still look nearly the same as I did when I started the game and I'm level 52.  
     
    I agree, the game is a blast at times, but there is just something about it that has made me fall out of its favor. 
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    uniform

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    #73  Edited By uniform

    Armor is kind of weird to me in GW2..but then it was weird to me in WoW. Each new tier, be it PVP or raiding, looked more comical than the previous set. Now, in GW2, my character (Guardian) looked exactly the same at 80 as it did at early levels. Now that's due to transmuting. Everything I'd find would look worse to me than what I was already using. Then, and now, I still can't kind a set that I feel suits the Guardian. I'm currently using the Vigil set at 80, but I see nothing I'd like to upgrade in terms of visuals. Dungeon sets = Spikes, skulls, mole man. PVP set just looks incredibly dull. None of them suit the Guardian. I have seen screen shots of good looking armor for a Guardian, so I know it exists, but always accompanied with vague names. Likely obtained through crafting, which is an element of GW2 I have yet to explore. That aside, not a lot of options. Maybe I'm just too picky.

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    SomeJerk

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    #74  Edited By SomeJerk

    Dark Age of Camelot is still alive :]

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    EXTomar

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    #75  Edited By EXTomar

    @Seppli said:

    @EXTomar said:

    Lore is nice but game play is key. I also think the gear progression in Guild Wars 2 is a bit obtuse at best and completely random at worse. On my main character, I would progress through the game looking at every gold and karma vendor I came across looking for upgrades and rarely found them. Any upgrade I had came from a story quest or from a random drop. Even then, I still have no shoulder slot armor on that character. I have no idea let alone plan to upgrade that character. Without that I have no goal beyond "Wander around some more" which is not good.

    Seems to me you lack basic MMO know-how. It's partly GW2's fault, that it throws players in the deep end without much of an introduction to basic systems - but with any effort on your part, or prior knowledge of the genre - it's not rocketscience getting into it.

    You won't get any shoulder and head gear until lvl 10. From then on out, you can buy basic quality gear from every armor vendor in the world. Mastercraft & Rare & Exotic gear is dirtcheap in the trading post in lower levels - it's literally a global marketplace with millions of traders and crafters and gatherers and customers. Personally, I didn't spend a single copper on gear until I was lvl 80 and started going for Exotics rather than bank space and character slots. Gathered and crafted pretty much all of my gear leveling up - transmuted lots of it for more visual sexiness (thanks to the free transmutation stones from exploration). I hate to break it to you, but you're doing it wrong. There are myriads of ways to get by gear-wise, and have fun doing so.

    I often read how players dislike the normalized itemization. I can see how that can be true, if your playstyle is unchanging. I use all my weapons & weaponskills - switch 'em out regularly - I playtest various loadouts & builds & specs in sPvP - which I intend to turn into 'real' gear and playstyle possibilities for PvE & WvW. Next up I'll get me a set of Exotic Shaman Gear (Toughness, Healing Power, Condition Damage), which will do amazing things for explorable dungeons. I love mixing shit up. If I had to deal with more than 4 quality tiers of gear like in most other MMOs - or even a sheer infinite amount of RNG on attributes/item-levels as found in loot-centric action RPGs - being versatile and competitive would just become a complete and utter hassle, and any semblance of balance would go right out of the window.

    ArenaNet should definitely look into making their prestige gear grind more granular, because players are a lazy and dumb people, whom tend to do what's most efficient over what's most fun. Overcoming challenge for its own sake? That'd be like playing for naught, when it comes to players like the thread creator. On average - players gravitate towards the easiest and quickest paths of progression in order to get their 'bragworthy' shinies. Sadly these players miss the point, and sadly this is one of ArenaNet's shortcomings when it comes to GW2's design. Failing to make prestige items bragworthy - which should have been done by attaching real gameplay achievements to obtaining them. Sadly - that's just not the case, if you can grind out your tokens on the easiest boss encounters in the dungeons, and still get access to all the shinies.

    Then again. I don't give to fucks. Oddo's looking more badass than any of them grinders, all with maximized stats, and I've not run a dungeon twice yet (a majority not at all yet, to be honest). Sure - I understand the appeal of chasing a carrot on a stick, and it's there. It may be not as rewarding as in games like WoW or Diablo 3 with infinite incremental attribute increases, but that's for good reasons - namely putting balance and playabilty and approachability before fostering obsessive compulsive behaviour - avoiding gamedesign forcing players into indulging in such stupidity. Also - it lets everyone play the game, even if you cannot sink houndreds of hours into it, like I do.

    Blaming the player instead of the game is a classic defensive move. But anyway I have plenty of MMO experience: Ultima Online, Everquest, then a bunch of random games afterwards. The best modern games strive to remind you of the goal where I can't say there is a goal beyond the character story quest. If I can't see where the next milestone or goal or upgrade is then I'm pretty sure it isn't me being "the noob" and certainly not for a lack of trying.

    So I wander around to the various "hearts" on the map (forgive the lack of jargon, it honestly escapes me at the moment), check out the points of interest, trying to get to and view the vistas, do world events when they aren't inconvenient, and do the story quest at the appropriate levels. A long the way I hit the vendors, I try some trade skills, and generally try to propel that character forward and it is slow going. Part of this is the game's design re-tunes character level in each area to match the content but it cuts both ways in helping and hurting: I never feel like I am totally outclassed but I also feel I haven't made much progress.

    I actually believe one of the most progressive designs in MMO now is moving away from "gear is power" to instead favoring "gear is trophy" so I am very open to the idea of "stat-less" or "weak-stat" gear and not obsessing on it. What I am complaining about is the general lack of feeling of progression. The gear looks great but it appears to do little or nothing to my character. I have been swapping in and out armor and weapons and can't tell the change for better or worse. I have no idea where the next set of gear is. What things should I look out for? What currency should I save up? Should I craft it or look on the auction house instead? I have no idea and the game isn't telling me and I'm loathed to go look it up externally.

    Where "power" appears to come from in Guild Wars 2 is from buying/unlocking skills and traits. That character opened up at 11 when the second tier of abilites opened and points could be spent. It changed again at 21. I hate to break this to you but it took a bit to long to get 10 and even longer to get 20. I'm not surprised more casual players would give up slogging through where they have little or no idea why they should even try to get to 10 let alone 20 or beyond.

    In summary, I have no idea what the game wants me to do. I have no idea where my next goal is outside my story quest. I don't even have any idea what Divinity Reach is even though I see it on the map and the level ladder is pointed in that direction which the game never bothered to tell me about. I have no idea what a guild does beyond gives some influence points into something where I have explicitly looking around in the game for a suggestion. I don't feel particularly threatened but I also don't feel particularly powerful. I have a giant pile of karma I can't seem to spend while I am starved for gold. I think Guild Wars 2 is a fine game and does some things well (the escrow style auction house trading is brilliant!) but I see exactly why some would stop playing at this point. The next time I login and play, I honestly don't have any idea what I should be doing except for more solo stuff which isn't exactly a recipe for long term play.

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    jesterroyal

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    #76  Edited By jesterroyal

    : I mean, i think the game has pretty clearly told you what it wants you to do. You said it yourself that the game adjusts level down based on your zone. The real meat of the content in this game is exploring the zones. Armor matters a great deal once you hit 30 and try the first dungeon in your level 15 gear. You'll start seeing the importance of armor later in the game. Karma is what you should be spending to buy better accessories and armor from the heart karma vendors. If you arent crafting, your progression will be extremely slow. This game assumes that you are dabbling in crafting (And rewards you handsomly in exp). I think you are approaching this game from the midset that it has to tell you everything just for you to get enjoyment out of it.

    I think the problem people have with this game is that there is a "Right" way to play it. By design this game wants you to amble in a direction and hunt out every nook and cranny. It wants you to find a dynamic event (Or start one!) And then stalk those NPC's and listen to what they have to say (usually great writing) and follow along from there. For example, I and a couple others started norn alts. Some crazy woman was asking us to collect fur and bring it back. I said to the guys, wouldn't it be cool if this was yeti fur? "Like the abominable snow man?" Yeah. "no way." Shortly after completing that event she mumbles incoherently (we decided she was one of those "touched" characters)and starts chasing a jackalope thats supposed to lead her to the goal. Whats the goal? None other than a freaking veteran ettin (YETI). To which, my buddies and I had a good laugh and looked for more of the world to experience.

    The game wants you to live in the world and suck the marrow from its bones. Did you know there's a beautiful garden hidden in the grove? Its not even a POI. The only thing you get from going there is the satisfaction of seeing something that someone spent hours creating and knowing that goal driven players will never see it. Its about feeling like you are playing in a breathing world. The personal story is passable. There's a few great characters in it. But its not a strong point of the game by any standard. In fact your story gets downright silly eventually especially if you are Slyvari. Theres a character who begins to play a prominent role in the story and if you are slyvari you've already met them. Then you get to listen to them talk to you like they have no clue who you are.

    So, if i may give you my advice on how to play, stop worrying about needing something to tell you that you are on the right track. Stop trying to turn it into an inherently objective based game. The only reason I want to get to 80 is so that I can start seeing all of the world and playing with my friends in Orr. Pretend you are actually alive in this world. Do you play your real life waiting for a ding or clamoring to equip that level 15 pair of pants that you are keeping in your dresser? What tangible benefit does going to the grand canyon have beyond being able to say you saw it. That's the better perspective is to just explore. Follow NPCs after the quest is done just to see if something new happens. If you can't do that, it might not be the game for you. I've tried to just explore the world that took years to create and I've very much enjoyed it. Give it a shot and try to be vocal in guild chat and with other players.

    Sorry for the essay. It wasn't my intention to write one when I started.

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    minorinya

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    #77  Edited By minorinya

    One thing I've only recently done is doing the stalk-the-NPCs + talk-to-random-NPCs thing. Makes Guild Wars 2 really come alive. I don't feel like I have to race toward finishing a mission, an exploration, or a level.

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    mortal_sb

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    #78  Edited By mortal_sb

    these are some nice discussions we're having! props to everyone for keeping it clean!

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    EXTomar

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    #79  Edited By EXTomar

    The issue is that you've just told me there is a right way to play it where I need to take in the slow pace. I've hunted down nearly everything in the start area and it still isn't enough and required me to redo and redo again world events. I don't think I'm playing GW2 wrong but I still see that I'm not doing anything but pushing a bar up waiting till I hit 30. Even then I have no idea how I'm going to last to 80 without additional "help".'

    The thing I think several MMOs get wrong is time. Players like to see content but don't like spending too much time in it where staleness is the ultimate enemy. I've spent way to long in a zone where I have covered 80% of it and know it well and am bored with it where suggesting I need to take it slower and soak it in crazy.

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    Seppli

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    #80  Edited By Seppli

    @EXTomar said:

    @Seppli said:

    @EXTomar said:

    Lore is nice but game play is key. I also think the gear progression in Guild Wars 2 is a bit obtuse at best and completely random at worse. On my main character, I would progress through the game looking at every gold and karma vendor I came across looking for upgrades and rarely found them. Any upgrade I had came from a story quest or from a random drop. Even then, I still have no shoulder slot armor on that character. I have no idea let alone plan to upgrade that character. Without that I have no goal beyond "Wander around some more" which is not good.

    Seems to me you lack basic MMO know-how. It's partly GW2's fault, that it throws players in the deep end without much of an introduction to basic systems - but with any effort on your part, or prior knowledge of the genre - it's not rocketscience getting into it.

    You won't get any shoulder and head gear until lvl 10. From then on out, you can buy basic quality gear from every armor vendor in the world. Mastercraft & Rare & Exotic gear is dirtcheap in the trading post in lower levels - it's literally a global marketplace with millions of traders and crafters and gatherers and customers. Personally, I didn't spend a single copper on gear until I was lvl 80 and started going for Exotics rather than bank space and character slots. Gathered and crafted pretty much all of my gear leveling up - transmuted lots of it for more visual sexiness (thanks to the free transmutation stones from exploration). I hate to break it to you, but you're doing it wrong. There are myriads of ways to get by gear-wise, and have fun doing so.

    I often read how players dislike the normalized itemization. I can see how that can be true, if your playstyle is unchanging. I use all my weapons & weaponskills - switch 'em out regularly - I playtest various loadouts & builds & specs in sPvP - which I intend to turn into 'real' gear and playstyle possibilities for PvE & WvW. Next up I'll get me a set of Exotic Shaman Gear (Toughness, Healing Power, Condition Damage), which will do amazing things for explorable dungeons. I love mixing shit up. If I had to deal with more than 4 quality tiers of gear like in most other MMOs - or even a sheer infinite amount of RNG on attributes/item-levels as found in loot-centric action RPGs - being versatile and competitive would just become a complete and utter hassle, and any semblance of balance would go right out of the window.

    ArenaNet should definitely look into making their prestige gear grind more granular, because players are a lazy and dumb people, whom tend to do what's most efficient over what's most fun. Overcoming challenge for its own sake? That'd be like playing for naught, when it comes to players like the thread creator. On average - players gravitate towards the easiest and quickest paths of progression in order to get their 'bragworthy' shinies. Sadly these players miss the point, and sadly this is one of ArenaNet's shortcomings when it comes to GW2's design. Failing to make prestige items bragworthy - which should have been done by attaching real gameplay achievements to obtaining them. Sadly - that's just not the case, if you can grind out your tokens on the easiest boss encounters in the dungeons, and still get access to all the shinies.

    Then again. I don't give to fucks. Oddo's looking more badass than any of them grinders, all with maximized stats, and I've not run a dungeon twice yet (a majority not at all yet, to be honest). Sure - I understand the appeal of chasing a carrot on a stick, and it's there. It may be not as rewarding as in games like WoW or Diablo 3 with infinite incremental attribute increases, but that's for good reasons - namely putting balance and playabilty and approachability before fostering obsessive compulsive behaviour - avoiding gamedesign forcing players into indulging in such stupidity. Also - it lets everyone play the game, even if you cannot sink houndreds of hours into it, like I do.

    Blaming the player instead of the game is a classic defensive move. But anyway I have plenty of MMO experience: Ultima Online, Everquest, then a bunch of random games afterwards. The best modern games strive to remind you of the goal where I can't say there is a goal beyond the character story quest. If I can't see where the next milestone or goal or upgrade is then I'm pretty sure it isn't me being "the noob" and certainly not for a lack of trying.

    So I wander around to the various "hearts" on the map (forgive the lack of jargon, it honestly escapes me at the moment), check out the points of interest, trying to get to and view the vistas, do world events when they aren't inconvenient, and do the story quest at the appropriate levels. A long the way I hit the vendors, I try some trade skills, and generally try to propel that character forward and it is slow going. Part of this is the game's design re-tunes character level in each area to match the content but it cuts both ways in helping and hurting: I never feel like I am totally outclassed but I also feel I haven't made much progress.

    I actually believe one of the most progressive designs in MMO now is moving away from "gear is power" to instead favoring "gear is trophy" so I am very open to the idea of "stat-less" or "weak-stat" gear and not obsessing on it. What I am complaining about is the general lack of feeling of progression. The gear looks great but it appears to do little or nothing to my character. I have been swapping in and out armor and weapons and can't tell the change for better or worse. I have no idea where the next set of gear is. What things should I look out for? What currency should I save up? Should I craft it or look on the auction house instead? I have no idea and the game isn't telling me and I'm loathed to go look it up externally.

    Where "power" appears to come from in Guild Wars 2 is from buying/unlocking skills and traits. That character opened up at 11 when the second tier of abilites opened and points could be spent. It changed again at 21. I hate to break this to you but it took a bit to long to get 10 and even longer to get 20. I'm not surprised more casual players would give up slogging through where they have little or no idea why they should even try to get to 10 let alone 20 or beyond.

    In summary, I have no idea what the game wants me to do. I have no idea where my next goal is outside my story quest. I don't even have any idea what Divinity Reach is even though I see it on the map and the level ladder is pointed in that direction which the game never bothered to tell me about. I have no idea what a guild does beyond gives some influence points into something where I have explicitly looking around in the game for a suggestion. I don't feel particularly threatened but I also don't feel particularly powerful. I have a giant pile of karma I can't seem to spend while I am starved for gold. I think Guild Wars 2 is a fine game and does some things well (the escrow style auction house trading is brilliant!) but I see exactly why some would stop playing at this point. The next time I login and play, I honestly don't have any idea what I should be doing except for more solo stuff which isn't exactly a recipe for long term play.

    I kinda felt that way during the BWEs, which at times left me somewhat cold. By the time the game released though, I knew exactly what I'm dealing with, and how to play it best - which is perfect, because the game is catered very much to my very thorough playstyle.

    At release - by the time I cleared the Plains of Ashford, my character was level 20. Of course I had fully explored the Black Citadel by then. Done all the level appropriate story missions. Played some WvW. Brought my crafting profressions up to the point where I sustain my own self. Gathered enough materials to do so. All of which gives spades of XP. I wasn't halfway done with the next zone, when I hit level 40 - and the world was open to me. Really, that's what GW2's open world PvE is all about. Just roaming the world and doing whatever you want. Exploration is the name of the game, and as far as I'm concerned - it's the best exploration driven game to grace this plane of existence as of yet.

    I don't know what drives you to progress in a game, I simply want to go to the horizon and see what's there. Usually a great adventure and an awe-inspiring sense of discovery.

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    jesterroyal

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    #81  Edited By jesterroyal

    @EXTomar: There are multiple starting zones. If one gets stale you should leave(in your starting town, there is a big purple porta. That will take you to lions arch. If you go through one of the other portals that you pop out near it will take you to one of the other race's starting areas. Then just walk out of town from there and start seeing the rest of the world. Im partial to The Grove and the sylvari surrounding areas. Lots of hidden jump puzzles and cool stuff to see). Also, if you zoom out of the map is shows the suggested level range in number over the rectangular area you are in. If you are outside of that and not having fun, again you should leave. Your personal story wont take you far from where you start. I guess, can you give me more info about where you are and what you are doing because Id be more than happy to offer suggestions on places that might be more fun for your level.

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    Nickieroonie

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    #82  Edited By Nickieroonie

    @mortal_sb said:

    No Caption Provided

    @project343 said:

    @mortal_sb said:

    it's under 180 hours. including times where i had gw2 minimized in my taskbar.

    That sounds completely impossible to me, but I'll take your word for it.

    I disagree with everything else you've said and don't feel like elaborating on an entirely subjective back-and-forth argument. This game isn't for you and I'm sorry about your $60. Perhaps you should have read into the game a bit more before making the dive.

    and really: i just played. i didn't want to be 80 as fast as i can or complete the world as fast as i did. i did it because it was one of the things i could do (i helped friends that got later into the game too), after hitting 80 and finishing the story.

    I can totally confirm that 190 hours "just playing" is possible. Here's my playtime where I sort of rushed the 100%, but stopped pretty often to do stuff with friends, jumping puzzles, pvp, etc.

    No Caption Provided

    I'm also pretty bored with the game, but that's just because my demands aren't satisfied by this particular game when it comes to the endgame. I still think it was money well-spent, and I plan on returning down the road when more content is inevitably added.

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    EXTomar

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    #83  Edited By EXTomar

    I would like to reiterate that as well: I feel Guild Wars 2 was money well spent even though I have complaints. I think GW2 is easy to recommend to a hard core MMO player but I can't quite recommend it to someone who is casual due to multiple reasons already hashed over in the thread. And I need to reiterate the core complaint in clearer terms as well: The game moves too slow at the start where you should have hit the 20+ game sooner. If designers want a player to be "cut loose" and wander the world, do that when they have most if not all of their skills and armor options available instead of at lower level when their options are limited.

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    TTMSHU

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    #84  Edited By TTMSHU

    Its kind of early in the game's life cycle.

    Even WoW wasn't particularly polished at launch.

    If you're burned out or feel like you've run out of stuff to do, come back in a few months time and take a look. That's the bonus of no ongoing subscription.

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    #85  Edited By mortal_sb

    @EXTomar said:

    I would like to reiterate that as well: I feel Guild Wars 2 was money well spent even though I have complaints. I think GW2 is easy to recommend to a hard core MMO player but I can't quite recommend it to someone who is casual due to multiple reasons already hashed over in the thread. And I need to reiterate the core complaint in clearer terms as well: The game moves too slow at the start where you should have hit the 20+ game sooner. If designers want a player to be "cut loose" and wander the world, do that when they have most if not all of their skills and armor options available instead of at lower level when their options are limited.

    oh, yeah. i also don't want to complain that the game was no fun so far (i had a ton of fan actually) and i it is resonable to say that the 40 euros i spend for 200 hours gameplay are an incredible good deal. but there's still criticism for me that i can't overlook so easily.

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    JerichoBlyth

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    #86  Edited By JerichoBlyth

    I don't want to come across as 'that guy' but for fuck sake - nobody should play a game for that long in such a short window of time. Go outside.

    Besides, isn't this the MMO that was designed for people who didn't really like MMO's but loved the idea of them and the community they generated? Go play Mists of Eats Chutes and Leaves.

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    jesterroyal

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    #87  Edited By jesterroyal

    What level are you, etc. You are speaking in tons of generalities but I'd like to hear more about the specifics of what you've done. I know nothing about your character except that the zone you've been in feels empty. It'd be nice to know more of where your opinion is coming from.

    I guess I've learned one thing from this thread about many of the mmo crowd is that people have been trained to enter that constant feedback loop. It seems some of the bigger complaints about this game is that there isn't a constant carrot on a stick to lock you into that loop of grinding mind numbing tasks in order to get to more mind numbing tasks and because the goal isn't constantly dangling in front of your face the game is boring, unfocused, or not fun.

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    nights

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    #88  Edited By nights

    Er, you're telling me the Berserker's Acolyte set isn't badass? It's even better on female characters since they don't have that atrocious mouthpiece to go along with the blindfold.

    No Caption Provided

    Not my character, but I think it's one of the best armor sets in the game.

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    Nickieroonie

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    #89  Edited By Nickieroonie

    @jesterroyal: I am looking for a carrot on a stick, but I'm not looking for mind-numbing tasks. I don't think that the two have to be directly related. The journey towards the carrot can certainly be fun. The reward for 100% was extremely boring, but I had fun along the way so I had no problem chasing that carrot. Mmm carrots.

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    #90  Edited By Karkarov

    @mortal_sb said:

    it's more like guild wars 1 then you know. jeff said this is more like a MMORPG and that he doesn't want that, but you know what? it just like GW1 with bigger maps and every map is a city hub.

    I am surprised it took you a month to notice, it took me about 10 minutes. This was never going to be more than the sequel to Guild Wars 1 + more people on your screen. They changed a lot of things and added some new ones, but nothing they did actually made a significant impact to the formula. It was all flavor or "feel" choices. There never will be an end game, there never will be a reason to play past max level, it isn't an MMO it is a single player action RPG with forced online and multiplayer. In other words exactly what Guild Wars 1 was, minus the too heavy instancing.

    Your only recourse is to wait for the first expansion, they are likely already hard at work on it.

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    #91  Edited By mortal_sb

    @Karkarov: i only posted my opinion on things after a month. this was clear to my even during beta, but it's not a big complaining point for me.

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    #92  Edited By TTMSHU

    @Karkarov: Except for my GvG

    WHERE THE FUCK IS MY GVG.

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    StrikeALight

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    #93  Edited By StrikeALight

    ArenaNet still haven't closed my account, a week after I was given a full refund. (660ti problems)

    Has this happened to anyone else?

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    Karkarov

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    #94  Edited By Karkarov

    @TTMSHU said:

    @Karkarov: Except for my GvG

    WHERE THE FUCK IS MY GVG.

    That's a great question, it would probably make the game better to be honest.

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    fox01313

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    #95  Edited By fox01313

    Powergrind any MMO & it's easy to lose interest in it, great thing with GW2 if it follows the pattern in the first one is expansions that have a ton of length to them & 0 subscriptions.

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    eSci

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    #96  Edited By eSci

    Your lucky, I only made it to a level 32 Thief before I was bored to tears.

    Sure, the moves where great for the first 15-20 levels, and the armor is just... disappointing.

    I think there was a whole 3 models all the way up to level 30 in the type of armor I actually used. Which begs the question, is developers recently getting so lazy on armor. Seriously, you don't have character progression with abilities, as in you don't get any except for utility which 90% of the time I couldn't be bothered with outside of PvP. You have progression with story, but really, I couldn't of cared less and of course progression with leveling which every MMORPG has.

    But, they are missing the biggest thing for me personally, armor progression. Having to wear the same armor for more than, I would say, 5 levels gets to be ridiculous let alone the same for 15 or so. Of course I know the immediate response, "You are getting new armor all the time." Yeah, I am but it's the same model so it's not like I could tell other than arbitrary stats telling me this new, and rolling around in gear I saw level 10s wearing at almost 35 just killed my enthusiasm.

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    WinterSnowblind

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    #97  Edited By WinterSnowblind

    @eSci: It's a shame you quit at that point, because 30 onwards is when the armour really starts becoming more varied. It wasn't necessarily the best design choice, but most of the skins are reserved for the higher levels and crafting tiers. If you're desperate for different looking armour early on, try the Karma vendors and boost your crafting level as much as possible. The game will never just hand you the better looking skins, the drops are always for the more plain looking sets.

    Same goes for the weapons, although at least they vary by which area you're in, but the vast majority of weapon skins are for end-game level 80 exotics and are either obtained by high-end crafting, the mystic forge or karma vendors.

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    Barrock

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    #98  Edited By Barrock

    One of my problems is unlike something like World of Warcraft, you don't get more awesome skills as you level. Once you hit 30 you unlock the ability to get all your skills. I just hit 61 last night and my character has been pretty much the same for 30 levels, and he's not going to change in another 20. Sure you have the three tiers of passive skills you unlock at 20, 40, and 60. But those are mostly very minor bonuses that don't change the character at all.

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    jesterroyal

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    #99  Edited By jesterroyal

    @Barrock said:

    One of my problems is unlike something like World of Warcraft, you don't get more awesome skills as you level. Once you hit 30 you unlock the ability to get all your skills. I just hit 61 last night and my character has been pretty much the same for 30 levels, and he's not going to change in another 20. Sure you have the three tiers of passive skills you unlock at 20, 40, and 60. But those are mostly very minor bonuses that don't change the character at all.

    I really don't agree with that statement at all.

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    Barrock

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    #100  Edited By Barrock

    @jesterroyal said:

    @Barrock said:

    One of my problems is unlike something like World of Warcraft, you don't get more awesome skills as you level. Once you hit 30 you unlock the ability to get all your skills. I just hit 61 last night and my character has been pretty much the same for 30 levels, and he's not going to change in another 20. Sure you have the three tiers of passive skills you unlock at 20, 40, and 60. But those are mostly very minor bonuses that don't change the character at all.

    I really don't agree with that statement at all.

    Maybe it's just for Engineer or I'm doing it wrong? My current bonus adds range to my weapon, lets me drop a flame thrower when I die, and does fire damage 33% of the time.

    I know one allows you to select the actual placement location of turrets, but it is currently broken.

    I think one thing is I'm just sort of disappointed with how grounded Engineer is compared to some of the other classes. I put down my turrets that look old and broken, and shoot pot shots. Meanwhile another class shows up with a clone of itself, teleports into battle, and starts tossing magic swords all over the place. Oh hey...

    I should probably experiment with the kits a bit more. I've done that in PVP, but haven't really used something like the flame thrower in PVE.

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