After watching the quick look and never really looking too much at gameplay GW 2 videos on youtube, this really just seems like yet another mmo to me. Kill mobs, collect stuff from them and yeah. The only difference seems to be that the leveling curve is kinda flat and that the quests are turned in automatically ? But I don't know if that is true or not 100%.

But weren't they promising this being totally different and not actually feeling like an MMO or something ? Wasn't this their main selling point ?

Yup. I seriously fell asleep during the quicklook. Looked like every other MMO out there. Not for me.

If you've played other MMOs you would see the difference in the combat, later levels and in PVP you do need to dodge, chain combos and move around. The combat is a lot more action based than other MMOs and the skills and classes are fairly unique. Also, you are forgetting events which are dynamic and happen throughout the world whether you are there or not. People will run up to you, you will hear conversations that trigger events and depending on if you win or lose different events will take place.

There is also the story which is unique to you, instances that change depending on your actions and intersting quests. The heart quests are basically side quests if you want to look at it that way. Also all maps can be 100% completed giving you items and experience so it gives you a reason to do all the jumping puzzles and explore. The music, art and world are just so beautiful that it draws you in as well.

That's only some brief stuff, there is quite a bit more I didn't mention like the mini games, animations, weapon skills and underwater combat.

Same.

i really wish Bethesda weren't bothering with their online thing, maybe it's not actually taking any manpower away from elder scrolls VI, and hey, you never know, maybe they will change things up, but as things stand now, mmo's hold zero interest for me. Accomodating RP is just too far down the list of priorities.

@HH said:

Same.

i really wish Bethesda weren't bothering with their online thing, maybe it's not actually taking any manpower away from elder scrolls VI, and hey, you never know, maybe they will change things up, but as things stand now, mmo's hold zero interest for me. Accomodating RP is just too far down the list of priorities.

It's not. The MMO is not being handled by Bethesda Game Studios themselves, but some other developer.

It feels a lot more like an actual RPG than most MMO's, thanks to the level of detail in the environments, the emphasis on exploration, the fact the quests you complete have an actual impact on the world and that there's an actual proper story (not quite up to the level of TOR, but still good and more custmosiable). Mechanically, it doesn't function like other MMO's either. Quests don't need to be activated by talking to NPC's, if you see centaurs attacking a town, you help defend the town or else it will be overrun until somebody decides to help out. It makes everything feel a lot more alive.

The combat is a lot more active, which Jeff didn't really demonstrate on the quick look, although to be fair, the depth doesn't really shine through until the later levels, particularly in the dungeons when you're working with smaller groups and a much higher difficulty. The leveling curve is flat and each tier of gear is normalised, meaning you can't be better than another play just because of your gear, it always comes down to actual player skill, instead of the amount of time someone has spent playing. Returning to earlier areas downscales you as well, so events always provide some level of challenge, instead of letting you be able to go back and steamroller your way through certain content.

It gets rid of the gear treadmill most of these games rely on and the ego and instead focuses on trying to make the content actually fun to play. I'd say it's definitely not a game for everyone, but if you're someone who hates MMO's because of certain tropes, there's a lot here that might appeal to you.

@Mageman: @J12088: @HH:

What the quicklook fails to convey, due to the lack of intimate knowledge of both the game and the subject matter of MMOs by the GB staffers, is that Guild Wars 2 is 'the most evolutionary MMO' since World of Warcraft. It's what World of Warcraft was to Everquest. A huge evolutionary step forward for the current state of MMOs, as well as bringing back successfully certain aspects of past MMOs, which have not been captured this well in a very long time - namely largescale open world PvP.

• World versus World is a gamechanger for open world PvP fans, which haven't gotten anything of this magnitude and quality in forever. While the quicklook goes into a WvW zone, they do not participate, and show nothing of relevance.
• sPvP hasn't been touched by them at all either, which pretty much encapsulates everything about Guild Wars 1's PvP, which made it special. Level playing field, instant access to the full depth of character and equipment customization - the full breadth of PvP mechanics open right out of the gate - eSports-style. This includes global tourneys and everything.
• Jeff didn't have even the most rudimentary understanding of advanced combat mechanics, and their impact on gameplay. Active dodging? Attacks landing in every hitbox they connect with, action game style? Traits and runes, and how these affect playstyles? Nada. Zilch. Nothing.

Guild Wars 2 is a MMO. The Quicklook gets that right. What's painfully wrong is the notion of it being 'just another MMO', because it's nothing if not different - and in my opinion better - in almost every conceivable way. Be it instanced matched PvP, open world PvP, questing and exploration, crafting systems, the realization of the gameworld, the overall economy, the backbone technology - you name it. It's better. The jury's still out on combat mechanics and coop group gameplay in instanced dungeons (haven't gotten around to it yet).

It's one hell of a game. Not just another MMO. The next big evolutionary step in MMOs, filled to the brim with minor and major innovations, as well as superior iterations of known systems. Feature complete - grand in ambition and graceful in execution. But yes - it might not be for you. Then again, buy it and give it a go. If there's even a minor chance that you'll 'get it' - do not miss out!

@Seppli: so it's another mmo with some new pvp ideas?

It has it's audience sure, but I don't think it's changed the game at all. It's still an mmo and people turned off by mmo tropes will find them in all the usual places in guild wars 2.

@Freshbandito: That ignores all of my points, none of which were about the PVP.

Yep. Played the beta, was not impressed at all and I was a huge GW1 fan. Just wait for WoW to steal the cool stuff it does.

@Freshbandito said:

@Seppli: so it's another mmo with some new pvp ideas?

It has it's audience sure, but I don't think it's changed the game at all. It's still an mmo and people turned off by mmo tropes will find them in all the usual places in guild wars 2.

Depends on which tropes put you off. Guild Wars 2 breaks with many of 'em.

• Gear treadmill? Gone.
• Need to painstakingly level a character to be competitive in sPvP and WvW? Gone.
• Need to spend hours in LFG for 'just the right class' to show up? Gone.
• Static gameworld? Gone. (Sure - changes and events are bound to repeat themselves, but it's magnitudes more involving than the classicly put together MMO-gameworld, especially once you learn to pay attention to how the dynamic events unfold)
• Hotkey Combat? Gone. (Well - it's a hybrid system, but it's as good as it gets for a game of this scale, without being subject to all manner of networking related gamebreaking issues)

Plus - the love and care oozing from every pore of its gameworld is simply breathtaking. If you love exploring a world full of lovingly created details - hidden secrets, funny dialog, beautiful vistas, traps and deadly creatures - Guild Wars 2 is the gift that doesn't stop giving.

@WinterSnowblind: that could be because I wasn't replying to your points but Seppli's? it's a distinct possibility, almost a certainty. At the end of the day it still just feels like an mmo grind and all to me, you can gush all you want but it still feels like same old with a new look and ui to me. I need something far removed from what Guild Wars 2 is to pull me back in now and that isn't a fault of the game.

@Freshbandito said:

@WinterSnowblind: that could be because I wasn't replying to your points but Seppli's? it's a distinct possibility, almost a certainty.

So you're purposefully ignoring certain points so that you can claim it's exactly the same as every other MMO? Fair enough.

@Seppli: ahh we'll have to agree to disagree on it I think, it's just not grabbed me and the points you've stated just don't leap out at me, not because they're not there but because it just clearly isn't what I'm looking for anymore. It's grabbed you for the reasons you've mentioned but I just can't stop thinking "ahh this feels like another mmo"

@Freshbandito said:

@Seppli: so it's another mmo with some new pvp ideas?

It has it's audience sure, but I don't think it's changed the game at all. It's still an mmo and people turned off by mmo tropes will find them in all the usual places in guild wars 2.

the only tropes it's taken aim at are the holy trinity, repetitive quests, zone griefing, negligible main story, stealing, aaaand there could be more but i think that's it

so, you know, if that stuff doesn't matter to you, i suppose it'll just be another MMO. otherwise i imagine it's rather refreshing.

@Seppli said:

• Hotkey Combat? Gone. (Well - it's a hybrid system, but it's as good as it gets for a game of this scale, without being subject to all manner of networking related gamebreaking issues)

Hold your horses. Hotkey Combat being gone? What? This is very clearly a Hotkey combat game, what with the Hotkey bar at the bottom of the screen. The addition of a limited action-dodge does not change that. (and it's been used in MMOs previously)

As for the rest of your points... this game clearly is terrible at showing it's face, as all I've seen so far has been a static game world focused on leveling and getting better gear.

It's great that you enjoy the game - and I'm not trying to take that from you, but let's not get crazy here - you are describing World of Warcraft (which is "just another MMO") just as easily as GW2 on at least half of your points :P

@Seppli said:

@Freshbandito said:

@Seppli: so it's another mmo with some new pvp ideas?

It has it's audience sure, but I don't think it's changed the game at all. It's still an mmo and people turned off by mmo tropes will find them in all the usual places in guild wars 2.

Depends on which tropes put you off. Guild Wars 2 breaks with many of 'em.

• Gear treadmill? Gone.
• Static gameworld? Gone.
• Hotkey Combat? Gone.

I'd say those things are still in there.

Gear is still attained by levels, it's not like they eliminated that. I'm carrying around a trident that's pretty great but is several levels ahead of me. Not sure what you mean by Treadmill but it's still a very typical system of level up and mobs start dropping slightly better loot etc.

The world is static. The events are dynamic but the world you walk around in is as static as any other game. Most of the time I don't even notice the day night cycle which they have - or at least in some areas it is night, sometimes. I wish games would have dynamic worlds where vegetation changes or broken down bridges finally erode and fall off and a player can actually along a special strip of land erect his own bridge. In GW2 the area you ran through at level 1 will be exactly the same as when you run through it at level 20.

Hotkey combat, definitely still there. You can circle strafe, if you want, but for most basic enemies this isn't really even necessary. For bosses you will spam your favorite hotkey combo and mash down your special abilities THEN proceed to roll back once, heal, wait for the AoE attack animation to end and jump in to do it all again.

I think it's a fun game but I just don't think those points are really valid. Also everyone keeps telling me how awesome WvW is and I've yet to get in it as I wait in queues for literally up to 2 hours without ever getting in. I hope this is just a server limitation and it will be fixed because I don't want to wait around for hours on end just to join in that PVP. The Mists PVP on the other hand is interesting as it's a lot faster paced but you don't gain XP which sucks.

@WinterSnowblind said:

@Freshbandito said:

@WinterSnowblind: that could be because I wasn't replying to your points but Seppli's? it's a distinct possibility, almost a certainty.

So you're purposefully ignoring certain points so that you can claim it's exactly the same as every other MMO? Fair enough.

Relax, you're taking an asinine comment I made and leaping to defend the game against sarcasm.

Whether it feels like any other mmo is subjective, I think it feels like any other mmo and your reasons for it being different don't really make it stand out for me, environments quickly blended in my mind to generic fantasy that I've seen too often. The combat whilst having some depth to it beyond WoW's doesn't require it of you often enough for me to give a damn and the fact that quests can pop by you entering an area / doing something has been in a bunch off mmo's (WoW included) for a good while now.

@Mnemoidian:

• It still feels like a hotkey MMO at first, but it has some depth a more 'realtime' approach to combat would bring to the table. Most attacks connect with every hitbox, not just the selected target - making positioning (an approximation of aiming) key when attacking. Active dodging adds a defensive aspect to positioning. It's a Hybrid system - as I clearly stated - and sadly its depth is obviously lost on you and many other onlookers and casual players, as well as Jeff.
• The gameworld is not static. Certainly not as static as most other MMOs. I've been places that got attacked by NPCs - lost the battle - and seen them tear the place the fuck down. Burnt to the flippin' ground. That's anything but static.

It's a matter of perspective really. I see the world dynamically changing before my eyes, you see a static cycle repating itself. I see an emphasis on positioning and smart movement, you see a hotkey combat system with a minor twist. We both have valid points of view, I just chose to find 'the Magic' and have a swell time, whilst you are a self-hating cynic denying yourself the pleasure. Or so it seems.

@Freshbandito said:

@Seppli: ahh we'll have to agree to disagree on it I think, it's just not grabbed me and the points you've stated just don't leap out at me, not because they're not there but because it just clearly isn't what I'm looking for anymore. It's grabbed you for the reasons you've mentioned but I just can't stop thinking "ahh this feels like another mmo"

I know what you mean. In the quicklook he was just doing same old same old fetch quests. Using the same old same old hotkey bar. Didn't strike me as a major leap forward. The problem is for an MMO to grab my attention it's going to have to reinvent the wheel so to speak. It'll have to throw out the hotbar and the traditional MMO questing and do something new all together.

@Seppli said:

I just chose to find 'the Magic' and have a swell time, whilst you are a self-hating cynic denying yourself the pleasure. Or so it seems.

I'd argue that the game itself doesn't put these ideas that you tout across well enough for us to laud them. Sometimes a game isn't as deep as someone who strives to find magic and depth in every polygon and 'hit button to dodge' mechanic likes to think it is.

@Seppli: Sounds about as much of a Hotbar system as Tabula Rasa and The Secret World, really (which both had/has active dodging).

If I don't get it, it's because the game is unable to show it.

As for not being static, not sure what you mean - but it sounds a lot like what I saw in/heard about Rift.

Like I said, I'm not trying to deny you the enjoyment of the game - I'm happy that there are people enjoying it! And it is a polished game... but outside of PvP, which I can't speak about, as I don't care: it's just another MMO.

If anything, I envy your naïve enjoyment - but it's hard to muster, having played many of the major MMOs of the last 16 years :P

@Humanity said:

@Seppli said:

@Freshbandito said:

@Seppli: so it's another mmo with some new pvp ideas?

It has it's audience sure, but I don't think it's changed the game at all. It's still an mmo and people turned off by mmo tropes will find them in all the usual places in guild wars 2.

Depends on which tropes put you off. Guild Wars 2 breaks with many of 'em.

• Gear treadmill? Gone.
• Static gameworld? Gone.
• Hotkey Combat? Gone.

I'd say those things are still in there.

Gear is still attained by levels, it's not like they eliminated that. I'm carrying around a trident that's pretty great but is several levels ahead of me. Not sure what you mean by Treadmill but it's still a very typical system of level up and mobs start dropping slightly better loot etc.

The world is static. The events are dynamic but the world you walk around in is as static as any other game. Most of the time I don't even notice the day night cycle which they have - or at least in some areas it is night, sometimes. I wish games would have dynamic worlds where vegetation changes or broken down bridges finally erode and fall off and a player can actually along a special strip of land erect his own bridge. In GW2 the area you ran through at level 1 will be exactly the same as when you run through it at level 20.

Hotkey combat, definitely still there. You can circle strafe, if you want, but for most basic enemies this isn't really even necessary. For bosses you will spam your favorite hotkey combo and mash down your special abilities THEN proceed to roll back once, heal, wait for the AoE attack animation to end and jump in to do it all again.

I think it's a fun game but I just don't think those points are really valid. Also everyone keeps telling me how awesome WvW is and I've yet to get in it as I wait in queues for literally up to 2 hours without ever getting in. I hope this is just a server limitation and it will be fixed because I don't want to wait around for hours on end just to join in that PVP. The Mists PVP on the other hand is interesting as it's a lot faster paced but you don't gain XP which sucks.

Once you have an item of a certain level and quality, there will be no superior weapon of that same level and quality. In other words, once you have a legendary lvl 80 weapon - that's as good as it gets item-level-wise. Sure - there are loads of different looking weapons, weapons with different stats-allocation and so forth, but nothing inherently more powerful (more base damage, more attribute points, etc.). You can get equally powerful weapons from regular Openworld PvE, Instanced Dungeon PvE, World versus World, and Crafting. It's no treadmill for the next better item, needed to play the next tier of gameplay. Normalised itemization. Easy itemization. You don't play for the shiny, because you must. You do it, because you want to. Everything before level 80 works the same way, but due to the nature of still progressing through the game, it's obviously not apparent.

As for your other points...

• It still feels like a hotkey MMO at first, but it has some depth a more 'realtime' approach to combat would bring to the table. Most attacks connect with every hitbox, not just the selected target - making positioning (an approximation of aiming) key when attacking. Active dodging adds a defensive aspect to positioning. It's a Hybrid system - as I clearly stated - and sadly its depth is obviously lost on you and many other onlookers and casual players, as well as Jeff.
• The gameworld is not static. Certainly not as static as most other MMOs. I've been places that got attacked by NPCs - lost the battle - and seen them tear the place the fuck down. Burnt to the flippin' ground. That's anything but static.

It's a matter of perspective really. I see the world dynamically changing before my eyes, you see a static cycle repating itself. I see an emphasis on positioning and smart movement, you see a hotkey combat system with a minor twist. We both have valid points of view, I just chose to find 'the Magic' and have a swell time, whilst you are a self-hating cynic denying yourself the pleasure. Or so it seems.

@Humanity said:

Gear is still attained by levels, it's not like they eliminated that. I'm carrying around a trident that's pretty great but is several levels ahead of me. Not sure what you mean by Treadmill but it's still a very typical system of level up and mobs start dropping slightly better loot etc.

The world is static. The events are dynamic but the world you walk around in is as static as any other game. Most of the time I don't even notice the day night cycle which they have - or at least in some areas it is night, sometimes. I wish games would have dynamic worlds where vegetation changes or broken down bridges finally erode and fall off and a player can actually along a special strip of land erect his own bridge. In GW2 the area you ran through at level 1 will be exactly the same as when you run through it at level 20.

The gear treadmill doesn't exist as it does in other MMO's. Each tier has the same stats, so once you reach max level, everyone will be on the same level. There isn't a constant hunt for better and better gear that makes you more powerful.

There is a day/night cycle, it's just often seems random because of the amount of players at the moment, which means you're constantly thrown into overflow servers where things are different. This is why many of the dynamic events don't seem to have much of an impact or repeat too often as well. Hopefully this is something that sorts itself out in time, because it does ruin the experience a little.

But both of your points about a dynamic world are in there. There's certain areas where if enemies attack, they'll burn down crops and farms or completely take over certain regions, setting up their own camps or holding towns and you have to drive them out before the NPC's will return and rebuild. There's an area up in Kessix Hills as well, where the centaurs can destroy a bridge and if they manage to, you have to defend it long enough for the workers to come in and rebuild it. I agree that they still don't quite take the idea far enough, but it's something I think we'll see them hugely expand upon with expansions and content updates.

@WinterSnowblind: Well thats pretty cool - so far I've yet to experience any of that. All areas I've ran through always look the same and even in one area where they took over a teleport point it still looked the same, just more ghosts spawned in the area. I'm excited to see those things you mentioned though.

@Mnemoidian:

Sure. Guild Wars 2 iterates on many tried and true concepts. That's why I'm saying Guild Wars 2 is 'the most evolutionary MMO' since World of Warcraft. It takes loads and loads of known concepts, such as Warhammer's Public Quests, Rift's Invasions, Dark Age of Camelot's 3 Faction Open World PvP, Warcraft's Tone and Sense for Fun, Guild Wars 1's sPvP and International Tourneys - and loads of minor and major own innovations - smart and thoughtful designs and mechanics - and executes them better, makes them mesh better with each other, and hence turns them into something more than the sum of their parts, more unique than 'just another MMO'. Just like Blizzard did with World of Warcraft.

You sound like I'm saying Guild Wars 2 is revolutionary. It's not. It's certainly not 'just another MMO' either. Just like World of Warcraft wasn't just another MMO when it was released. Of course you've got to be there, to believe it.

@Humanity: Most of the more interesting events seem to happen at the higher levels, once you start seeing the story based dynamic events.

I haven't explored much of Ascalon either though, but that might be part of the problem. That place is basically one massive ruin anyway.

@WinterSnowblind: I'm currently almost level 19 - do you know any areas where the dynamic event/heart area is not woodland - maybe like you said ruins or even some sort of steel plated place sort of like the Black Citadel? Seems everywhere I go it's just woods, and while some of those areas still look stunning I'd like a change of atmosphere. There was one instance where I was in a case full of lava and that looked pretty cool and atmospheric - are there any volcanic areas in the game?

@WinterSnowblind: I'm currently almost level 19 - do you know any areas where the dynamic event/heart area is not woodland - maybe like you said ruins or even some sort of steel plated place sort of like the Black Citadel? Seems everywhere I go it's just woods, and while some of those areas still look stunning I'd like a change of atmosphere. There was one instance where I was in a case full of lava and that looked pretty cool and atmospheric - are there any volcanic areas in the game?

@Dezztroy: I've been to three different starting areas and they all seem to just end up in woods - it's why I was asking!

All of the starting areas are pretty woody. The humans tend to have more countryside though, which is broken up with big lakes, a few battlefields and there's a big swamp where the temple of ages was. The asura and sylvari have more jungle and arid environments. The norn have a lot of snowy mountain regions too, which is pretty cool and later on the game you'll be going to places like Orr (which was the continent that sunk, but was recently risen back to the surface by Zhaitan).

The Ring of Fire islands (the big volcanic mass on the bottom left of the map) and Crystal Desert are still clearly on the map but inaccessible.. I'd guess they're planning on adding them as post launch updates, probably before any of the major expansions.

I kinda made a whole blogpost about this.

This thread is exactly why that guy was upset with Jeff over the Quick look.

The moment I saw how big that chair was, I knew it was just another MMO.

• in FPS you shoot stuff
• in RPG's you pick your abilities from a list and take turns
• in MMORPG's you select your abilities from a hot bar in real time
• in RACING games you drive around in circles
• in PLATFORMERS you jump from platforms to platforms

If you say, "so it's just another X", then you should just keep your comments to yourself because you're showing that your either incompetent or envious of other peoples enjoyment of a game. That quote is really starting to get to me on this site. It seems like every idiot who doesn't like a game say, "pssht, WELL IT'S JUST ANOTHER GAME! HERP DERP!".

Guess what fuck wads?

THEY'RE ALL JUST ANOTHER GAME OF SOME KIND. Try using your brain for half a second and come up with something less generalized.

This thread is exactly why that guy was upset with Jeff over the Quick look.

the main difference to me is in most other mmos they design them to really get it's hooks into you and get those subscription monies out of you, with various treadmills to place yourself upon and grind away. if you don't feel like playing or don't have time, you either don't get the most out of what you're paying, or you have to cut the rope.

in guild wars 2 it's like, you just log in whenever and do whatever you think is fun, for as long as you want. it doesn't do anything revolutionary, it's just not designed to be a job, and doesn't charge you money for time you might not be playing. you don't even need friends or to search for a group most of the time, you can't walk 10 feet without finding a pack of other people public questing, or busting down a keep in world vs world, or joining pvp matches.

Yes, the genre of Guild Wars 2 is classified as an MMO -- therefore, it is indeed just another MMO. However, it's, y'know, pretty cool. If you're into that sort of thing.

People who don't like MMOs should stop complaining about MMOs. It's getting old.

@CL60 said:

People who don't like MMOs should stop complaining about MMOs. It's getting old.

My thoughts exactly. Though I would add that the people who like GW2 should probably be slightly less aggressive in their defense of the game. No one is right or wrong in these sort of topics, so just play the games you enjoy and don't worry about how others feel about it.

@CL60 said:

People who don't like MMOs should stop complaining about MMOs. It's getting old.

Except that they marketed this to people who don't like MMOs . That was their whole thing some time ago.

I loved the first Guild Wars... played the shit out of it. Even after the first Beta event for GW 2, I've been a little cold on it. To me, the cross profession/ skill system was the heart and soul of the series. Then they ripped it out. I never played WoW or any other MMO, so I don't know if the GW 2 skill system is unique, but I feel like it's nothing to long for like in Guild Wars 1. You use a weapon for a bit... then boom... done. All your other skills are handed to you, you don't need to go cap elite skills. And the tasks (hearts) are just glorified quests that you don't walk up to an NPC and get. The only reason I'm really playing is just exploration's sake. Don't know how long the hook is going to last. I agree with Jeff, this isn't the Guild Wars 2 I'm looking for.

If you're going to hate, you're going to hate. This is definitely a different type of MMO, and it gets rid of a lot of the issues that people have complained about with other MMOs like WoW, The Old Republic, etc. I haven't played an MMO extensively since Dark Age of Camelot, I did play a bit of WoW through the free trial, but that felt repetitive and monotonous. Guild Wars 2 has a dynamic event system, doesn't depend completely on the level grind, and the combat system feels more satisfying than any other MMO I've played or seen played lately.

There are a lot of fresh concepts used here, some evolutionary, some questionable. At the end of the day, it's a better game than 99% of the MMOs you see out there, and it offers something for people who aren't veteran MMO players. I have 3 friends on IRC that have never played an MMO before, but are knee deep into Guild Wars 2 and loving it. It's definitely more RPG than MMO, more Skyrim than WoW, but Skyrim as a world with other living humans running around as opposed to wandering NPCs.

My only contribution to this thread will be to never create an opinion of a game based off of a quick look. This does not apply to just GW2, but to every game.

Even if it was just another MMO I enjoyed the first Guild Wars and with no subscription fee you can't lose, which is why I'm interested.

@CL60 said:

People who don't like MMOs should stop complaining about MMOs. It's getting old.

And people who like MMOs can stop defending them by saying ''No guys, this one is really different and not at all like WoW''.

Maybe for you it isn't but for people who don't play a lot of MMOs it's, as Jeff said on the bombcast, ''like WoW...not really... but yeah''

@shinboy630 said:

My only contribution to this thread will be to never create an opinion of a game based off of a quick look. This does not apply to just GW2, but to every game.

except, obviously, an opinion about whether or not to get the damn thing, right?

@Humanity said:

@Seppli said:

@Freshbandito said:

@Seppli: so it's another mmo with some new pvp ideas?

It has it's audience sure, but I don't think it's changed the game at all. It's still an mmo and people turned off by mmo tropes will find them in all the usual places in guild wars 2.

Depends on which tropes put you off. Guild Wars 2 breaks with many of 'em.

• Gear treadmill? Gone.
• Static gameworld? Gone.
• Hotkey Combat? Gone.

I'd say those things are still in there.

Gear is still attained by levels, it's not like they eliminated that. I'm carrying around a trident that's pretty great but is several levels ahead of me. Not sure what you mean by Treadmill but it's still a very typical system of level up and mobs start dropping slightly better loot etc.

The world is static. The events are dynamic but the world you walk around in is as static as any other game. Most of the time I don't even notice the day night cycle which they have - or at least in some areas it is night, sometimes. I wish games would have dynamic worlds where vegetation changes or broken down bridges finally erode and fall off and a player can actually along a special strip of land erect his own bridge. In GW2 the area you ran through at level 1 will be exactly the same as when you run through it at level 20.

Hotkey combat, definitely still there. You can circle strafe, if you want, but for most basic enemies this isn't really even necessary. For bosses you will spam your favorite hotkey combo and mash down your special abilities THEN proceed to roll back once, heal, wait for the AoE attack animation to end and jump in to do it all again.

I think it's a fun game but I just don't think those points are really valid. Also everyone keeps telling me how awesome WvW is and I've yet to get in it as I wait in queues for literally up to 2 hours without ever getting in. I hope this is just a server limitation and it will be fixed because I don't want to wait around for hours on end just to join in that PVP. The Mists PVP on the other hand is interesting as it's a lot faster paced but you don't gain XP which sucks.

I'll try to address your points individually, here.

What he means by "gear treadmill" is not synonymous with what you're describing, which is "gear progression." Progression denotes the gradual increase in stats associated with finding new stuff to put on your character as they level, and is very much present in Guild Wars 2's PvE and WvW modes. A treadmill references the system World of Warcraft made popular, in which after you've reached max level, you must participate is extremely repetitive and highly demanding end-game raids in order to continue your gear progression. Typically, what this means is that those players who cannot or do not wish to invest the time necessary to raid are simply non-competitive in both PvE and PvP.

The world in Guild Wars 2 is not static. While even the most complex dynamic event chains will inevitably cycle through, certain events can trigger major changes in the environment. I'll give you two examples, one from the norn 1-15 zone (Wayfarer Foothills) and one from their 15-25 zone (Snowden Drifts). In WF, there is a meta-event about two-thirds of the way through the zone that, when pushed to it's conclusion, results in an extremely powerful multi-stage shaman boss spawn. As you gradually defeat his lieutenants and close the add-portals he's opened (each their own event), the snow around you gradually becomes an intense blizzard, which clears if you defeat the shaman in time (I haven't actually seen what happens if he isn't killed). In SD, there is a bridge halfway through that connects the zone's main road east-to-west and is guarded by a nearby Lionguard haven. There is an event that can occur in which the Sons of Svanir will send in assault teams to attack the bridge from the west, only each team also has it's own explosives carrier. If - before you succeed in helping the Lionguard hold the bridge for a set period of time - three Svanir bombers manage to reach their separate targets on the bridge and plant the bombs there, not only will you fail the event but the bridge will be absolutely obliterated. This has an actual, functional impact on your navigation of the zone, because not only do you now have to circumnavigate the mountains that the bridge was connecting to get to either side of the zone, but the debris from the bridge also obstructs the pass below, preventing you from crossing through there.

I would agree that hot-key combat is still very much present in GW2, but I disagree with your assessment of it. Simply put, cycling your 1-5 will not end with you alive at high-end PvE content or any PvP content. You have to know what each of your skills is useful for in terms of utility, and refrain from spamming them at inopportune times because, frankly, your 1 skill by itself usually does more DPS than anything else (excluding the thief, whose choice is limited by their initiative rather than recharge). You must also always be watching your enemy for signature tells, because even a god-damn cave bat can wreck your shit in seconds if you don't dodge it's life-stealing swoop. While some may prefer Tera's style of action-y combat, I would count Guild Wars 2's as superior simply based on the fact that very few skills root you, and the constant movement that allows for just feels better and more active to me.

Hope I could explain at least some of what Seppli meant. Glad to hear you've generally enjoyed your experience so far, too!

@Mageman said:

@CL60 said:

People who don't like MMOs should stop complaining about MMOs. It's getting old.

Except that they marketed this to people who don't like MMOs . That was their whole thing some time ago.

Here's where I'm coming from:

• I fucking adored the first Guild Wars and still do, I've spent more time with that game than with any other, but as Jeff has correctly pointed out it's not an MMO.
• I had a fun time playing Maplestory with friends and family until I hit a brick wall of grind, and that's the game that taught me about the shitty tactics that many free-to-play developers use to squeeze every cent out of the players who just want to progress. Now, I resent the time I spent in there.
• I really enjoyed many aspects of City of Villains, but the boring combat just killed it for me almost immediately. Running out my free month by using the super-jump power to skip around high-level areas was hilarious and fun, though.
• I've tried the free World of Warcraft trial twice. The first time I got bored by level 15, the second time I quit after a couple of hours. That game just didn't inspire me in any way.

There's my relatively limited experience with online RPGs. I would say that I am, in fact, a person who "doesn't like MMOs." The greatest thing I think that Guild Wars 2 does to help people like me enjoy it is get rid of all of the fucking absurdities that are standard to the genre. You know, the ones that lead to "oh, right, it's an MMO." You'll have to do some research to find all of the examples of this, but suffice it to say that it just feels (ugh, what a clichéd way to phrase this) different to me. There isn't any dumb bullshit to deal with, and the content is - in my opinion - expansive enough, deep enough, and of a high enough quality to stand against any big-budget single-player RPG. And that's without counting the fantastically well-designed World vs. World and Structured PvP modes.

Hey if you'd be willing to buy this game, you would have already done so, if not well then move on?

If you are basing this off of the quicklook, APPARENTLY Jeff wasn't really demonstrating the game, especially the combat, for what it actually is. I'm basing this off the comments from the video - I haven't played the game myself.