some build help?

#1 Edited by silentdante (57 posts) -

this is for anyone bored or who likes to help with builds. i was enjoying the minion build in todays stress test (a lot of that having to do with the fact my slow left hand doesn't have to try and hit as many skill buttons) and i wasn't sure i built the thing well and still don't even know how power or precision works out for things other then the basics of them (like percision makes crit rate go up).

the basic idea i am trying to go with is minions of course, but also a bleed build (conditions also) so i am not sure if i should be using the runes i chose or what. i went with 3 minions and one spell that also applied a nasty bleed, not sure if thats good or if i should just go with all minions as my right side skills. any and all thoughts are welcome, i apreciate it. also this build website doesn't show you what your stats will be once everything is up that well, but i couldn't find another one that was working or was better.

here is the build link: http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fQQQNArdWjMa16laqb07JApHRT91TK4GcIF5KNA;TsAgyCpoay0koJbTumkNtCYEw0AA

EDIT: an update to the build using suggestions http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fQEQNArYWjMap71ama07JApHRfN1TK4GcIF7KNA;T0Ag1Cqoay0koJbTumkNtqYUxpiXFzPA

-silentdante

#2 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2591 posts) -

I think this is a job for !

Anyway, I'm going to pitch in a bit now and probably some more after I come back from the gym (I totally fell asleep while watching TNT, sigh).

The best ways to deal condition damage from a gear perspective, from everything I have learned thus far are:

You want to be able to pile conditions on quickly and consistently, this requires you to use skills which apply conditions but ALSO to have a high crit rate and sigils which assist this. So:

  • You want 40+ crit chance, pref 60+, but once you hit 70+ you hit diminishing returns unless traits are what are getting you there
  • Sigil of Earth is the best current condition damage sigil when coupled with high crit chance. This is actually better than extending your bleed duration as conditions are frequently removed, and thus adding stacks quickly is better than making your stacks last longer. You should only have one sigil of earth per weapon set, though (it doesn't add that way).
  • For example, Scepter/dagger as your main weapon set (one of them with sigil of earth) and Axe/Warhorn on your second set (one of those with sigil of earth as well). I haven't read the skills yet, aside from Scepter/Dagger which is probably better than Scepter/Focus as it gives you additional condition removal.
  • The off-weapons should be something which assists you in a different way, such as Sigil of Blood (30% chance to life steal on crits), Sigil of Energy (when you switch to this weapon you get half of your total endurance back), Sigil of Strength (gain 3 stacks of might for 20 seconds when you switch to that weapon) or Sigil of Hydromancy (chills foes around you when you switch to that weapon, and deals damage). You can use the +10% bleeding duration sigil, but only under a certain case (I'll get there)

To achieve fast and consistent condition application, the following amulets are the best (see their stats on this page);

  • Rabid Amulet (the most tanky, and generally the preference of necros)
  • Carrion Amulet (nudges you more towards direct damage, only to be used by Necros situationally but very good for Thieves due to the differences in base health)
  • Rampager's Amulet (if you want to go all-out damage, this one is king)

The jewel on the amulet, however, is up to you. The best jewels for most builds (if you want to do good damage) are;

  • Rabid/Carrion/Rampager if you think you want to very much focus on condition damage
  • Berserker's (if you want to hybridize your damage - I'll get there)
  • Soldier's or Knight's for good all-rounders
  • (these are pretty much the same stat tilts as the amulets, so I cbf'd finding the page to link them)

For your Runes, again to achieve good condition damage, you can do two things - take a good all-round rune or mix and match for a different effect. See the runes here.

  • Rune of the Undead is currently the most favored condition damage rune, but my preference goes to Rune of the Adventurer (which gives you condition damage, power and refills your endurance when you use a heal skill - amazing for survivability)
  • Mix and matching runes can drastically increase your condition duration. It is up to you whether you do this versus being much more survivable by taking the above x6 runes. Anyway, the two best ways of doing this are: 2x Rune of Lyssa, 2x Rune of The Krait and 2x Rune of The Centaur for a passive +40% bleed duration and +10% duration to your other conditions. Otherwise you can go 4x Rune of the Nightmare and 2x Rune of Lyssa to gain +20% to all condition durations.
  • If you want to hybridize your damage, the best rune to go for is Rune of Divinity.

So, what is best for you? It depends on the situation and how you like to play. First, I would settle on traits which sound good to you and look at how your stats play out, then pick the amulet+jewel+rune to maximize or supplement this. For example, if you have picked your favorite traits and find that you are maining power, precision, condition damage and toughness from picking your traits, you could either take the Rabid amulet to add to your precision, condition damage and toughness more or you could go for Carrion which boosts your vitality to round you out a little. As necromancers start with high health, the latter is rarely done, but still an option.

One note: How much +condition duration should you take?

  • Well, note that your traits are a very good way of getting condition duration. By dumping into the cond.duration stat you can get +30% condition duration without having to "spend" gear on it.
  • It seems (unconfirmed) that condition durations work in whole numbers. For example, a bleed which lasts for 8.8s will do the same thing as a bleed that lasts for 8s, as it "never gets to the 9th damage tick". As such, you should only really use things like the +10% bleeding duration sigil if you know that by taking it, you will bump your condition duration to the next whole number.
  • For example, if you do the Lysa/Krait/Centaur rune combination above to get +40% bleed duration and you also dump your stat to get another +30% you are sitting on +70% bleed duration. The bleed from Sigil of Earth lasts 5 seconds - so doing the math, it will now last 8.5 seconds, "wasting" 10% of your +duration bonus. By also taking the +10% bleeding duration sigil the 5s will become 9, no longer wasting anything. In general I never take these sigils as 1s gains aren't as useful as the alternatives in terms of survivability vs damage.
  • In fact, I hate the +10% duration sigils so much in PvP contexts that I have never bothered remembering what they are called.

ED: Okay, I want to put this here as well. I am not saying condition duration boosts in general are bad.

I was talking more along the lines of using condition duration sigils specifically rather than condition duration in general. Condition duration is quite a good thing when you're talking about things like 5s->7s, but when you get to changes like 24s->26s then it's just silly as anything that long will be purged. My rule of thumb is "all conditions will last an average of half their duration in skilled play", so it's not like durations are useless even then.

Remember that the main DOT condition formulas are:

  • Bleed (stacks intensity): 1/2 * Level + 0.05 * Condition Damage Stat or 40 + Cond.Damage/20
  • Poison (stacks duration): Level + 0.1 * Condition Damage Stat or 80 + Cond.Damage/10
  • Burning (stacks duration): 4 * Level + 0.25 * Conditoin Damage Stat or 320 + Cond.Damage/4

These are ticks per second. More seconds of ticks = more damage. Note that stacking +Duration% isn't as important for Burning or Poison as when they are reapplied they add to the existing condition duration, whereas Bleeding just puts another DOT on them for each reapplication of bleeding to a maximum of 25. So if you, for example, have 1200 condition damage;

  • 10 stacks of bleeding (easy to maintain) = 10 * 100 = 1000 damage/second
  • 1 stack of poison (cant increase, stacks in duration) = 200 damage/second
  • 1 stack of burning (cant increase, stacks in duration) = 620 damage/second

So, even though a bleeding application can only be boosted from 5s -> 7s through "big condition damage boosts", you're going from 5000 damage total to 7000 damage total in this case. Now, my issue comes in when you're going from (as I said earlier) 8s -> 9s, so 8000 damage to 9000 damage. In my opinion, this isn't worth it as other sigils can save your life. Dodging an attack can prevent (if your enemy is a warrior) anywhere from 1000 damage to 14,000 damage - as an example.

So To clarify:

  • Big condition duration boosts = good. 20%, 30%, 40%, etc (so condition runes, traits etc) because the make significant changes to small duration effects, such as bleeding, whilst keeping them to manageable levels (anything over like 10 seconds is pretty useless as with 2 condition removals, this overlaps with most cooldowns, and as such 10s is about the limit of where I'd go with DOT condition durations)
  • Is an odd number like 30% still good? Yes. For example, some skills inflict 10s duration conditions and this will bump that to 13 - etc.
  • Sigils are crap unless they tip you over "the next second mark" - note, they are usually along the line of 10-15%
  • Why are they crap? Because some of the sigils are really effing good. So condition duration itself isn't terrible, but getting half of your endurance back when you really need it? that can be awesome.
  • Then again, it all comes down to personal preference.

About hybridizing your damage, and damage in general:

Dealing hybrid damage is a tough subject because in most cases you can either deal good direct damage, good condition damage or neither. Going half way kindof makes you crap at both rather than making you more powerful. HOWEVER, there are some of us (including myself) who think that going high crit chance to deal heaps of conditions but not hybridizing is a waste of a very powerful stat. Let's break it down:

To deal the most direct damage, Power is the best stat to take, with Precision actually being about half as good. This is, however, until you hit a Critical Damage stat of +50, which makes each critical you proc deal 200% normal damage (the formula is 150 + Crit Damage Stat, so with 0 crit damage your crits will deal 150% of normal damage). At this point, Precision is actually slightly better than Power.

Further complicating this, one must consider procs - for example, if one takes Sigil of Blood, once your crit chance hits about 60%, having 43 crit damage is equal to having 50 crit damage with no sigil of blood. I have excel sheets for this, but in general let's just say that when having both Sigil of Blood and Sigil of Earth together, having +35 or more critical damage makes each point of precision you take very damaging. This is the heart of hybridization.

Because you already want high crit chance to proc conditions, taking a damage sigil (ie blood, probably the best of them) and having 35 or more crit damage means that the idea of "being good at one or the other, but not both" is somewhat invalidated. You can now maximize the effect of each point of your precision to make you deal both more condition damage and more direct damage. However, there is a catch - obviously. How does one get +35-43 crit damage if the crit damage trait line is no good (rarely the case)? Well, you can't fix that but you can mitigate it.

You take the Runes of Divinity, the Berserker's Jewel and you're done. That is a free +23 crit damage, meaning you only need 15-20 points in your crit damage line to deal very large damage, both in direct and condition forms. As such, you could go Rabid Amulet (or Rampagers), Berserker's Jewel and Runes of Divinity for a very powerful hybrid damage base to any condition damage build.

Would I recommend this? Maybe? Is it the only way to deal damage? Hell no. I prefer straight direct damage myself, so having about 1900 or so Power AND 1900 or so Precision AND 40+ Cit Damage AND Sigil of Blood is how I roll. But what I WILL say is that the most damaging builds I have made and seen are based on hybridization with a Warrior and the basics can be applied to any other class.

Then again, these are all very low survivability specs - so in most cases? It depends on the way you play. Ignore this entire section, for example, if you like playing high survivability builds : P (though you can make a NEAR balanced hybrid damage build with some classes, including engineer, warrior and necromancer)

#3 Edited by shinboy630 (1194 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic: TL:DR

Edit: Also, God do we need our own forums, just so we can move all this to a seperate PvP sub-forum.

#4 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2591 posts) -

@shinboy630 said:

@selfconfessedcynic: TL:DR

Edit: Also, God do we need our own forums, just so we can move all this to a seperate PvP sub-forum.

Yeah, I know : /

I should also make that like a blog post or something so it doesn't get lost. It'd useful for people who care, I guess : )

In short,

I recommend for most condition builds:

  • Sigils: Sigil of Earth, Sigil of Blood and Sigil of Energy
  • Runes: 6x Runes of the Undead or 6x Runes of the Adventurer
  • Amulets: Rampager's or Rabid (with matching jewels to start)
#5 Edited by silentdante (57 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic: love a wall of text to read, keeps me busy as i am up late and bored anyways, haha.

very much appreciate your viewpoints so don't go thinking i won't read all that.

i think i will try something out tomorrow close to the changes you have suggested, except because i have no traits that up precision, my crit chance only got to 46%, but at least the condition damage is at i think 1170 or something. i am going to stick with the staff because i took the traits that make the marks bigger and unblockable, and all of them have a condition too so that might work out, we shall see.

and could always make a guild site on http://www.guildlaunch.com/ and they have forums for the guilds you can make, it's just sort of the thing that we are the giantbomb GW2 guild so we stay here i figured.

#6 Edited by Subjugation (4741 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic said: I have excel sheets for this

Oh my ...

@selfconfessedcynic: Looks like someone watched the Buildcast D:

I'm actually in the process of creating a condition necro build and a tank necro build. If I come up with anything useful to add that hasn't already been said I'll plop it down.

Edit: This is the bleed build I have so far, but I keep on iterating and changing my mind so I'm not calling it final by any means. I've probably already done a dozen iterations.

And this is the tank-ish minion build I have so far. It isn't designed to be killing so much as it is to hold down a point. I'll be interested to see how both of these play out because at the moment they are entirely just theory crafting and not battle tested at all.

#7 Edited by silentdante (57 posts) -

@Subjugation: yeah what i want to make is something right in the middle of these two types of builds, part tank minions part condition damage. it's not easy haha

EDIT: updated the origional post with the newer build using suggestions

#8 Posted by Jack_Lafayette (3473 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic: This and other evidence is starting to make my power/toughness condition ele seem fairly un-optimized... can't help going for those sweet, tier-3 traits, though. I'm terrible at spreading my points.

#9 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2591 posts) -

@Subjugation said:

@selfconfessedcynic said: I have excel sheets for this

Oh my ...

@selfconfessedcynic: Looks like someone watched the Buildcast D:

I'm actually in the process of creating a condition necro build and a tank necro build. If I come up with anything useful to add that hasn't already been said I'll plop it down.

Edit: This is the bleed build I have so far, but I keep on iterating and changing my mind so I'm not calling it final by any means. I've probably already done a dozen iterations.

And this is the tank-ish minion build I have so far. It isn't designed to be killing so much as it is to hold down a point. I'll be interested to see how both of these play out because at the moment they are entirely just theory crafting and not battle tested at all.

@silentdante said:

@Subjugation: yeah what i want to make is something right in the middle of these two types of builds, part tank minions part condition damage. it's not easy haha

EDIT: updated the origional post with the newer build using suggestions

Okay, I finally read the Necro skills and traits and it seems like you both have done pretty good jobs of hitting the high points.

For Subs I'll just talk about the bleed build as necro-tanking is something I am COMPLETELY unfamiliar with so, I'd say that now I've actually compared them, the staff may be better than the axe/warhorn, but shrug - that's your call. Maybe change blood magic 3 to blood magic 2? I dunno how effective mark of blood is. We need Chav in the hizzy.

For Dante, I would make like one change - leave off the Staff recharges trait, and put trait X where it is, take 10 points out of death magic and put it into curses, take curses trait 2.

You lose:

  • 100 toughness
  • 120 power
  • 20% staff recharge times

You gain:

  • 5% crit chance
  • an additional 66% chance to cause bleeding on crits (so these actually don't stack - every time you crit you'll have two separate 60+% chances of inflicting bleeding, which means you'll frequently stack 3 bleeds on a scepter-1 attack crit this way)
  • 100 more condition damage.

So, this;

http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fQEQNArYWjMap71ama0bKAJFRT9kCuBHSxuSHVgYA;T0Ag1Cqoay0koJbTumkNtqYUxpiXFzPA

#10 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2591 posts) -

@Dark_Lord_Spam said:

@selfconfessedcynic: This and other evidence is starting to make my power/toughness condition ele seem fairly un-optimized... can't help going for those sweet, tier-3 traits, though. I'm terrible at spreading my points.

Power.. Toughness... Condition damage? What are you... What?

#11 Posted by silentdante (57 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic: deffinetly going to roll your suggestions tomorrow, but i also want to compare the +% to duration stuff, because like you have said people purge those things a lot it seems, at least people in our guild take condition purging, so i wonder if there is something other then duration pluses that help, but then again to stack them you have to have them stay on the person... ah such little things effect so much.

#12 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2591 posts) -

@silentdante said:

@selfconfessedcynic: deffinetly going to roll your suggestions tomorrow, but i also want to compare the +% to duration stuff, because like you have said people purge those things a lot it seems, at least people in our guild take condition purging, so i wonder if there is something other then duration pluses that help, but then again to stack them you have to have them stay on the person... ah such little things effect so much.

Oh yeah, that - I forgot to add that to my breakdown. It's almost secondary, but it's nice.

Let's see - you have +20% condition duration from Spite and this adds another 20, so we're keeping it nice and neat (5s procs are scaled to 7s with no losses). Before, I was talking more along the lines of using condition duration sigils specifically rather than condition duration in general. Condition duration isn't a bad thing when you're talking about things like 7s, but when you get to changes like 24s->26s then it's just silly as anything that long will be purged. My rule of thumb is "all conditions will last an average of half their duration in skilled play", so it's not like durations are useless even then.

ED: To clarify:

  • Big condition duration boosts = good. 20%, 30%, 40%, etc (so condition runes, traits etc)
  • Is an odd number like 30% still good? Yes. For example, some skills inflict 10s duration conditions and this will bump that to 13 - etc.
  • Sigils are crap unless they tip you over "the next second mark" - note, they are usually along the line of 10-15%
  • Why are they crap? Because some of the sigils are really effing good. So condition duration itself isn't terrible, but getting half of your endurance back when you really need it? that can be awesome.
  • Then again, it all comes down to personal preference.
#13 Edited by Bollard (5868 posts) -

@silentdante: The build you're aiming for is almost exactly what I went for. Minion Master with a focus on bleeds, and increasing bleed duration (interesting to see Cynic slap me in the face about that one haha). Also, you're totally right, it's a fantastic build for people who aren't great at getting around their keyboard to skills 6-0 (like me) because all the minions are so relaxed as to when you cast them, that you can even get away with just clicking the icons and winning.

As for my preferred build, here's what I made up in BWE3 which won me like 3 games in a row and several more besides:

[OH NO NO NO NO THAT RUSSIAN SITE IS TERRIBLE :( I had bookmarked my Necro build and because I looked at Benny's Mesmer one yesterday it has somehow lost my Necro one... Both the bookmarks I have just go to the Mesmer build. Shoot. Okay, I'll have to send you the build once I recreate it from my character in game today.]

I'll throw this out though, my favoured weapon set is Staff and then Axe/Dagger. Staff has such a long range it's great to keep people at bay, especially with one of the marks also dealing out a bleed. I basically use the marks to cover all the entry points to a capture point so people have to take damage on the way in. Once they are all on cooldown (they're reasonably long) whip out the axe and start dealing intense DPS. The dagger also gives you another skill with bleed which is why I like it. Then just make sure to keep an eye on your minion health, and use Death Shroud if you're in trouble. I have the trait which gives DS a speed boost to use as an escape tool, cause otherwise you have nothing.

EDIT: Oh and I built in some leeching/life steal to keep you alive longer. I think that stuff even benefits from the minions, as they steal life for you too. When I can look at my build again I'll give a better explanation of the finer points. Also I'm sure my build is terrible, cause I'm usually the kinda guy that lets other people work this stuff out, but hey, if I can win with it I'm sure it's not too bad.

EDIT2: Just looked at your builds, I think you've got the same Trait choices as myself, but different weapon and utility choices. Again, hopefully I can rebuild my build (so to speak) later.

@selfconfessedcynic said:

@Subjugation said:

@selfconfessedcynic said: I have excel sheets for this

Oh my ...

@selfconfessedcynic: Looks like someone watched the Buildcast D:

I'm actually in the process of creating a condition necro build and a tank necro build. If I come up with anything useful to add that hasn't already been said I'll plop it down.

Edit: This is the bleed build I have so far, but I keep on iterating and changing my mind so I'm not calling it final by any means. I've probably already done a dozen iterations.

And this is the tank-ish minion build I have so far. It isn't designed to be killing so much as it is to hold down a point. I'll be interested to see how both of these play out because at the moment they are entirely just theory crafting and not battle tested at all.

For Subs I'll just talk about the bleed build as necro-tanking is something I am COMPLETELY unfamiliar with so, I'd say that now I've actually compared them, the staff may be better than the axe/warhorn, but shrug - that's your call. Maybe change blood magic 3 to blood magic 2? I dunno how effective mark of blood is. We need Chav in the hizzy.

I can't talk much for the bleed build, but I'd say you probably do want mark of blood if you're focusing on bleeds that much. It seems pretty good when I use it with my staff on my build.

I'll look at the minion build once I know how it compares to mine.

#14 Posted by Bahloo (47 posts) -

Jesus, cynic, you are a beast. Can you do this with every profession? I would love to hear your thoughts on all of them ;-)

Also this seems crucial to me.

Edit: Also, God do we need our own forums, just so we can move all this to a seperate PvP sub-forum.

#15 Edited by silentdante (57 posts) -

@Chavtheworld: yeah i looked at axe for some damage but decided to go with scepter because 2 of it's 3 skills also cause bleeding, and condition damage is kind of what it's made for over just power, haha but then again it wont be hard to switch out and see which works better either.

wow 6am for me, i need to sleep, this was fun!

#16 Posted by Bollard (5868 posts) -

@silentdante: Yeah sounds like it, night duder.

#17 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2591 posts) -

I've added a bit to the above for those who want more info (and to restate what I said to silentdante)

ED: Okay, I want to put this here as well. I am not saying condition duration boosts in general are bad.

I was talking more along the lines of using condition duration sigils specifically rather than condition duration in general. Condition duration is quite a good thing when you're talking about things like 5s->7s, but when you get to changes like 24s->26s then it's just silly as anything that long will be purged. My rule of thumb is "all conditions will last an average of half their duration in skilled play", so it's not like durations are useless even then.

Remember that the main DOT condition formulas are:

  • Bleed (stacks intensity): 1/2 * Level + 0.05 * Condition Damage Stat or 40 + Cond.Damage/20
  • Poison (stacks duration): Level + 0.1 * Condition Damage Stat or 80 + Cond.Damage/10
  • Burning (stacks duration): 4 * Level + 0.25 * Conditoin Damage Stat or 320 + Cond.Damage/4

These are ticks per second. More seconds of ticks = more damage. Note that stacking +Duration% isn't as important for Burning or Poison as when they are reapplied they add to the existing condition duration, whereas Bleeding just puts another DOT on them for each reapplication of bleeding to a maximum of 25. So if you, for example, have 1200 condition damage;

  • 10 stacks of bleeding (easy to maintain) = 10 * 100 = 1000 damage/second
  • 1 stack of poison (cant increase, stacks in duration) = 200 damage/second
  • 1 stack of burning (cant increase, stacks in duration) = 620 damage/second

So, even though a bleeding application can only be boosted from 5s -> 7s through "big condition damage boosts", you're going from 5000 damage total to 7000 damage total in this case. Now, my issue comes in when you're going from (as I said earlier) 8s -> 9s, so 8000 damage to 9000 damage. In my opinion, this isn't worth it as other sigils can save your life. Dodging an attack can prevent (if your enemy is a warrior) anywhere from 1000 damage to 14,000 damage - as an example.

So To clarify:

  • Big condition duration boosts = good. 20%, 30%, 40%, etc (so condition runes, traits etc) because the make significant changes to small duration effects, such as bleeding, whilst keeping them to manageable levels (anything over like 10 seconds is pretty useless as with 2 condition removals, this overlaps with most cooldowns, and as such 10s is about the limit of where I'd go with DOT condition durations)
  • Is an odd number like 30% still good? Yes. For example, some skills inflict 10s duration conditions like chill, blind and cripple, and this will bump that to 13 - etc.
  • Sigils are crap unless they tip you over "the next second mark" - note, they are usually along the line of 10-15%
  • Why are they crap? Because some of the sigils are really effing good. So condition duration itself isn't terrible, but getting half of your endurance back when you really need it? that can be awesome.
  • Then again, it all comes down to personal preference.
#18 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2591 posts) -

@Chavtheworld said:

@silentdante: The build you're aiming for is almost exactly what I went for. Minion Master with a focus on bleeds, and increasing bleed duration (interesting to see Cynic slap me in the face about that one haha).

NUUUU CHAAAAV D:

Sawweee.

I think I clarified some of it with my edits above.

Oh, and the only condi duration thing I hate is the sigil specifically, not the runes or traits. Though I do think people should keep their condition durations down to like 10 seconds or so for bleeds, longer is semi-useless imo.

@Bahloo said:

Jesus, cynic, you are a beast. Can you do this with every profession? I would love to hear your thoughts on all of them ;-)

Also this seems crucial to me.

Edit: Also, God do we need our own forums, just so we can move all this to a seperate PvP sub-forum.

Haha - well, this is mostly about condition damage in general and things I've read up on for Necromancers recently. The only classes I think I have the remotest of bearings upon are Warrior, Necromancer, Guardian and Ranger - maybe a little on Mesmer, but not much.

I may write something >_> but there are "complete guide"s on guildwars2guru.com for people to check out that will be more in-depth than what I can come up with on the spot.

BUT I'm more than willing to help people with their builds. I just didn't remember seeing any one-stop-shop for condition damage gear pointers, so I wrote that post up.

#19 Posted by Bollard (5868 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic said:

@Chavtheworld said:

@silentdante: The build you're aiming for is almost exactly what I went for. Minion Master with a focus on bleeds, and increasing bleed duration (interesting to see Cynic slap me in the face about that one haha).

NUUUU CHAAAAV D:

Sawweee.

I think I clarified some of it with my edits above.

Oh, and the only condi duration thing I hate is the sigil specifically, not the runes or traits. Though I do think people should keep their condition durations down to like 10 seconds or so for bleeds, longer is semi-useless imo.

Mmm, quite possibly. I may try mixing it up, but I was using one bleed sigil.

#20 Edited by Jack_Lafayette (3473 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic said:

@Dark_Lord_Spam said:

@selfconfessedcynic: This and other evidence is starting to make my power/toughness condition ele seem fairly un-optimized... can't help going for those sweet, tier-3 traits, though. I'm terrible at spreading my points.

Power.. Toughness... Condition damage? What are you... What?

It's not my fault they tied condition damage and duration to those lines. It probably is my fault I couldn't find a creative work-around.

EDIT: Also I'm trying to focus on burning, which makes Fire Magic a near-necessity. Those traits seem to favor boosting your damage output (i.e. power) against people who are burning rather than outright increasing the effectiveness of burning.

#21 Posted by Bollard (5868 posts) -
#22 Edited by silentdante (57 posts) -

@Chavtheworld: wow LOTS of power on that build which works with axe a ton, if you switched to the earth runem, the 2 skill would hit 8 times and each crit might bleed instead of one bleed on switching, but they talked about that on buildcast.

otherwise i think all the changes were for the better, poor greg olsen whoever that is died a couple times 1 vs 1 but he brought a buddy and wrecked me, haha. here is a link to the build as it has now become:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fQQQNArYWjMa16tama0bKAJFRT9kCuBHSxuSHVgYA;T0Ag1Cqoay0koJbTumkNtqYUxpiXFzPA

couple changes i was contemplating was the trait for 50% more minion health out and bring in the increase area of marks and make them unblockable, because i am not sure how much people actualy attack the minions or how much health they would have without it compared to having +50% health. i was also contemplating on if i should get the mark of blood on roll trait instead of somethng else in the traits at all by putting 10 more points into blood magic (but cant really see where i could lose 10 points either...). imean could i lose the +30% minion damage trait, who knows, i have no clue how much extra damage that makes for each minion :(. and is a mark of blood on dodge worth +30% damage from 4-5 minions (from my understanding the mark of blood is 3 stacks of an 8 second bleed.). i guess thats the thing about going hybid more then just straight bleed.

is it possible to try and set up one of the free tournaments if we can as just 1 vs 1 or 5 vs 5 of people who just want to sort of theory and duel instead of matches. i dont know how tournament works though so maybe thats not possible.

#23 Posted by Bollard (5868 posts) -

@silentdante: It would be nice to do some 1v1 for theorycrafting. I like the idea of extra damage for minions as that would equal extra life steal.

I'd like to try out that final build you have there, it definitely seems interesting. Little less damage and health but I suppose that's what you lose if you wanna get that extra crit chance to focus more on bleeds. I think a 1v1 of our builds would be most interesting :P

#24 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2591 posts) -

Man, sucks that we couldn't have a smoother stress test to play around in.

I think that upon release I won't actively seek out playing matches against BOMB guys as trying new things gets punished with a swift face-raping. When even one of us learns their new build faster than the others they just start dominating : )

I'll probably spend a while skilling up in PvE and PUG games with any new classes and builds I try out before bringing them into our internal guild bouts. I just don't learn fast enough to get a handle on things before coming up against another guy who just runs circles around me till I'm dead.

This is by no means a bad thing - it's crazy to see how talented some of us already are - I just need some time for personal growth : )

Either that or we can try actually grouping up and hitting up Tournaments together to see what's what - though I suspect that won't be much easier than our internal competition, especially if we're trying new classes for the first time. That last part is key - on multiple occasions, when versing eachother some of us have been actively dissuaded from trying out entirely new things because you just get stomped over and over while trying as best as you can to just learn.

Still, at some point you have to fight against people better than you in order to improve your game, I just think a couple of solid days spent in PUGs and the PvP isles versing the NPCs could go a long way towards me expanding beyond the one or two builds I'm currently even remotely proficient at.

#25 Posted by Benny (1955 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic: I may have contributed to crushing you in PvP yesterday with my guardian, it's a really fun class that I didn't appreciate before but may main it now.

There's no reason not to do free tournaments, the rewards are better than just doing PUGs and it's a more focused experience being 5v5, emphasizing small battles and co-ordination.

I agree with doing some PvE to get used to skills though. In a stressful PvP situation you kinda need to know straight away what skills will help in a situation (almost to the level of it being second nature) and you can build that stuff up over time in PvE.

#26 Edited by UssjTrunks (533 posts) -

@silentdante said:

@Chavtheworld: wow LOTS of power on that build which works with axe a ton, if you switched to the earth runem, the 2 skill would hit 8 times and each crit might bleed instead of one bleed on switching, but they talked about that on buildcast.

otherwise i think all the changes were for the better, poor greg olsen whoever that is died a couple times 1 vs 1 but he brought a buddy and wrecked me, haha. here is a link to the build as it has now become:

You raped me in like 3 straight 1v1s (at least), I stopped going to the falls later when I saw you haha.

#27 Posted by Subjugation (4741 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic said:

I just need some time for personal growth : )

Are you breaking up with me?

#28 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2591 posts) -

@Benny said:

@selfconfessedcynic: I may have contributed to crushing you in PvP yesterday with my guardian, it's a really fun class that I didn't appreciate before but may main it now.

Pfft - I lost the first one fair and square because I hit shield stance at the start instead of using shield bash and then I proceeded to miss with my shield bash : D

I can't name any one instance that I felt like I got "owned", but I can say that whenever I was facing down some hapless random, there'd always be a BOMB guy around the corner. I must say, I was that BOMB guy myself a bunch of times with you guys, so this isn't anything against anyone in particular, just sayin' I need to faceroll some noobs a couple of times to get my builds memorized before I can hack getting pounced.

@Subjugation said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

I just need some time for personal growth : )

Are you breaking up with me?

Never! D:

#29 Edited by silentdante (57 posts) -

@UssjTrunks: yeah, i was trying to just hold a node most games, instead of wander around makes using the marks from staff easier. though i noticed on the trebuche map no one came to the node i was guarding at all, i think i got 10 points that map for cappping it and then nothing, haha so i guess running around is more the style for 8v8 but in a tournament type of thing camping a nide might be better i don't know. i think when i was playing the warrior you would kill me though.

@selfconfessedcynic: yeah i think the only problem with how they have it set up now is that in PVE i can learn what a skill does but not really how to mix and match them in pvp since the AI usualy never does what a human does. i think once i get a handle on a decent rotation of sorts and when to hit the F1 power to save my regular healthbar and stuff like that i woould want to hit the free tournaments so i play way better people (on average i would think) and will learn that much quicker or better. plus i have still never touched WvW so i don't even know how that would go, haha.

@Benny: bah your just a good player no matter the profession, haha, i think i tried to run up on your guardian and proceeded to die no matter how much health my minions may have siphoned, did you have a ton of retaliation going also? i think the guarding might end up a much played class at first in PvP because it seems like a LOT of people are using condition type builds throughout the whole game and the guardian deals with that VERY well.

i wonder if it is a bug that the mesmer elite moa skill desummons my minions (or a pet as a ranger) because that kind of ruins the build and i have to wait for the cooldowns to resummon any minnion, seems kind of harsh coupled onto the fact you cant get out of being a moa either, i dont htink any other elite skill does that much. even the ranger entangle if your a ranged class you can still attack from it. either that or just mesmer will be my downfall, haha along with guardian.

#30 Edited by UssjTrunks (533 posts) -

@silentdante said:

i wonder if it is a bug that the mesmer elite moa skill desummons my minions (or a pet as a ranger) because that kind of ruins the build and i have to wait for the cooldowns to resummon any minnion, seems kind of harsh coupled onto the fact you cant get out of being a moa either, i dont htink any other elite skill does that much. even the ranger entangle if your a ranged class you can still attack from it. either that or just mesmer will be my downfall, haha along with guardian.

Not only that, but it can also counter transformation elites (unless they fixed that in the stress tests). When an ele uses their Tornado or guardian uses Tome of Courage, a mesmer can moa morph them (this shouldn't happen IMO as the elites go back to their 180-240s CDs). I didn't know about the minion thing. But they should reset your minion skill CDs when you get moa morphed. It's by far the strongest elite in the game right now. I think it needs to be toned down a bit personally. Maybe just reset all CD counters on the morphed target.

#31 Edited by Bahloo (47 posts) -

Here's a Ranger build based on conditions. I didn't really know whether I should start a new topic or just use this thread so here goes. ( Note: Single threads for all profession a possibility? <3 )

If there's a fellow ranger-interestee (or anyone else really) out there, please feel free to comment. Even though I only threw this together fairly quickly, I am incredibly intrigued by the idea of running a condition build. So if you have anything, please, go ahead, I am extremely open for constructive feedback and criticism.

Just a couple of quick thoughts before I am off to bed.

Weapon choices:

  • Main Set: Shortbow proved to be an incredible weapon after getting used to it. You get your bleeds, your poison, your CC, your evasive ability. It's just fairly different from what you would expect from a ranger class. I loved how it played out however.
  • Second Set: (Especially open for discussion) I found Axe/Warhorn to be both useful in DPS as well as support situations. Auto-Attack is ok, but the 5xbleed and chill are incredible. Offhand skills synergize well as you get (if I remember correctly) 16 birds and therefore 16 chances of crit+bleed as well as a fantastic group buff. I'm just not sure on how good it is as a second weapon set combined with Shortbow.

Runes'n'Sigils:

  • Sigil of Superior Earth and Energy. Bleed and Endurance-Refill.
  • Rabid Amulet + Jewel. Prec/Tough/Cond Dmg.
  • 6/6 Sup. Rune of the Undead. Cond Dmg + Tough + Toughness converted to Cond Dmg

Pets:

  • Lynx as the offensive one. (Fell in love with it!) High precission, two kinds of bleed, vulnerability.
  • Arctodus / Brown Bear. Both offer more survivability and tanky-ness. Arctodus brings a bleed, brown bear removes a condition. Perhaps the bear works better (being the more defensive one).

Utilities:

  • Heal: "Healing Spring". Water combo field. Heals (including its tick) almost as much as the single target heal. Gives regen to allies and removes conditions.
  • "Spike Trap" (bleed) and "Flame Trap" (burning). "Sharpening Stone", of course.
  • Elite: I like all three. "Entangle" can win you a team fight since it can root and bleed anyone. The spirit is a great support skill.

Traits:

  • 10 30 30 0 0
  • Dipping into the Marksmanship tree to get a little bit of power and condition duration as well as a free "Sharpening Stone" at 75% health and the vulnerability when entering combat.
  • full Skirmishing for bleed on crit, larger & ground targeted traps, shorter shortbow recharge
  • full Survival for increased endurance regen by 50% and protection after dodging, faster survival skill recharge (perhaps "Vigorous Renewal" instead since I only have "Sharpening Stone" as a survival skill?). And most importantly this trait helps dealing with all these other crazy condition-builds running against me.

Obviously this build lacks in vitality. Ont the other hand it offers much needed toughness to deal with power and condition removal to deal with debuffs.

Since the entire build is built around strafing and moving constantly, having to flank and all, putting down traps and dodging a whole lot while getting lots of conditions off seemed to work fairly well during the last Stress Test.

#32 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2591 posts) -

@Bahloo

The entire build actually looks really solid, good weapon choices, good skill choices, good traits, good sigils, good gear.

The only thing I'd change would be to switch your pets with ones that throw down poison fields (like a forest spider and/or murrellow). It'd capitalise on everything else you're doing, and those aren't bad options in their own rights (defy pain, entangle, etc).

#33 Posted by Bahloo (47 posts) -

See, this is just one of the many things I didn't even have on my radar. Thanks, mister.

On an unrelated note, how does your favorite Warrior build look like at the moment?

Seeing as how the top spots on my character list keep changing constantly, it would be great to run Ele, Warrior and Ranger one last time tonight. If you would like to share your warriawesomness with us, it'd be much appreciated.

(Also, how about that Scepter/Dagger Ele you were mentioning a couple of days ago? I would love to hear some thoughts on it.)

#34 Posted by silentdante (57 posts) -

@Bahloo: wow our builds are almost identicle for the ranger i made last stress test and i did the best with overall of all the classes i have played in PVP. i'll share mine so you can see how close they are: http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fMQQNAV3YjEVx11VaWo2BgVBBbPykTMZPM0xHPZXpKF;TsAg1Cqoay0koJbTumkNtqYUx+DA

the major differences are just trait choices and the secondary weapon. i went with the dagger over the horn, though your logic is sound about all the bird hits, i am not sure if the earth sigil effects a weapon it's not on or not. meaning i dont know if having the sigil of earth on the axe applies the same blood to crits with the horn. i went with dagger because of the 5 skill mostly, which is a 900 range bleed and cripple, to go along with traps and other conditions. i also like the 4 dagger skill for evasion is a melee person gets close, to evade and then roll away.

for the trait differences i went less survivability and more condition removal in the 30 skirmishing, you take the shortbow cooldowns 20% and i decided to go with the trap cooldown and longer condition duration. i think either choice is fine, i just went with traps because then burn is very quick and lasts a while so if they only have 1 condition removal it's either burn or bleed, and also the cripple from spike trap is longer, and since i don't strafe well the enemy being slower helps me more, haha.

in your build you take VI as our first, where i went with the III which makes incoming disables to hit the pet instead (every 90 seconds) but i took that because of all the hammer and mesmer people i seemed to have faced. i ended up taking VI as my second trait where you chose VIII. i might change, cause i am not sure how much i need the two survival skills to recharge 20% faster over something else, and the regen for 5 seconds (every 20s) might be better then sharpening stone at 36s down from 45s and entangle at 120s instead of 150s.

i think the major problem i ran into was condition builds also, since we only have 1 triat that gets rid of them once every 10 seconds. our heal says it removes one condition from allies, but i dont think it does for us unfortunately.

we both go with full undead, and then you take the rabid/rabid route, which makes your toughness WAY higher then mine at 2974 where mine is only 2330, though my crit chance is 62% where yours is at 49%. i think that really is up to how you want to play, where i kind of rush in and try to do damage where you are a little more tanky. our powers are pretty close, mine being 2393 and yours at 2016. you probly make up for it a bit in the condition damage because you hit 1405 while mine sits at 1127. then a slight difference in health too, which is kind of the difference of toughness, your health is at 15082 and mine at 18372.

poison would be good, but the lynx just has a nice F2 ability that stacks 2 bleeds, and then also a regular 20s cooldown bleed attack that stacks 4 at one time.

as far as what has for the second pet, i dont know, but i took the hawk, which it's F2 ability is a 6 second cooldown for a bleed stack as well as an 8 second cooldown vulnerability. so i usualy start with the cat, hit the F2 and give it time to hit it's other bleed ability, then i switch out to the bird and mach the quick recharging F2 bleed.

i think with either build you could stack 25 bleeds in 10 soconds or less, but this is also why guardians kick my ass, cause they purge them easy as pie and still wreck face on me, haha

sorry if all that is jumbled, i was just typing stream of conscience, hope it helps to see two sides of a same type of build.

-silentdante

#35 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2591 posts) -
#36 Edited by Bahloo (47 posts) -

No, sir, don't worry. This is exactly what I was looking for. You basically talked about all the major differences between our two builds (Can't check it out right now, the service seems to be off) and I guess this is where it simply comes down to personal preferences and playstyle. The birds issue with the horn as an offhand you adressed is something I read online and couldn't get around to testing yet. This will happen in about two minutes, however :)

The main problem is dealing with other condition builds as well as making sure ours are constantly up (even when we are facing a guardian, ugh). This is why I chose VIII and XI in Survival. Having that extra regen whenever we suffer from conditions is great and the fact that our pets will continually take off a condition is nice as well. There are some very powerful ways of applying conditons and I believe Rangers can stack bleeds qucklier than any other profession right now. Rangers can be very destructive with this build, which is why I decided to go with more survivability in order to wear our opponents down. Other than that, facing condition heavy builds will defintitely be a challenge.

I took another look at the pets and I came up with a Lynx/Hawk(or Eagle) combination as well right now.

*off to the Stress Test =)

[edit] I switched X with XI because I like what you said about having traps ready more often and more importantly having their conditions last much longer. I will play around with both traits, but I see myself switching weapons quite frequently. I rarely need my shortbow skills off the CD.

I'm also using Rabid now, seeing as how I want to boost my condition dmg to max. Not sure why I picked Berserk in the first place.

Birds can proc Sigil of Earth even though it is is on the axe, not the warhorn.

#37 Posted by WildGunmen (10 posts) -

Hey all. At work it I wanted to throw something out here. Tbh typing all the specifics on my phone is just too much of a pain in the grundle so I will have to update when I get home, but I wanted to share my thoughts on the Elementalist. I am between two builds at the moment but I was curious to hear your feed back. One is a damage build, focusing around crit and pure nuking power. It seems fun but to a certain extent lacks flair. The other, which I am particularly jazzed about, is a healing build. Now I know there is no such thin as a pure healer but I think I have gotten pretty damn close. Thirty into Water and thirty into Arcane with the ten point splash up for debate. So I ask you, would you rather see a tried and true clothy Dmg machine or a pure healer?

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