The Lincolncast, Episode 9: Stressed About Dyes

#1 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

The Lincolncast, Episode 9: Stressed About Dyes

Hey guys!

For those who don't know, this is the Giant Bomb community's Guild Wars 2 podcast (made by our guild, Lincoln Force). This week, we actually delve into some extensive discussion surrounding recent news. Who would have thought? After that, we get into some quick beta impressions, and are left with no time to talk about WvW (again) - perhaps next week? STAY TUNED.

Also, subscribe to the show!

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Streaming Embed (audio only):

Show Notes

Intro music: "The Pentagon" by The Hamster Alliance

Featured Members: , , , ,

Run time: 2:02:27

Topics for the week:

  • Stress Test announced - some of us are excited, others are nonplussed
  • We're generally "not happy" with Arenanet's changes to the Dye System
  • SteelSeries announces GW2 peripherals to deafening silence
  • Catching up on some missed news, Arenanet announced that they're adding an item previewer, and we're (shock) happy about it
  • EnchantedEcho brings some new perspective to Structured PvP (and he's a bastard)
  • Tarkhein talks GW2 not-zombies

Plugs!

Enjoy! Also, feel free to leave some criticism or feedback - TheLincolncast@gmail.com or @TheLincolncast on Twitter

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#2 Posted by ajamafalous (11845 posts) -

You've got a typo in the Show Notes (Featured Members: names, Run time: names again, Run time: time)

#3 Edited by shinboy630 (1133 posts) -

@ajamafalous said:

You've got a typo in the Show Notes (Featured Members: names, Run time: names again, Run time: time)

Damn, beat me to it! I saw I was tagged in this and what like "what, I wasn't on this week".

#4 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@ajamafalous: @shinboy630: Thanks you two.

That's what I get for copy/pasting from the iTunes show notes. Though I swear I checked it >_>

EDIT: The youtube is now up.

#5 Posted by Maystack (902 posts) -

Still no WvW discussion this week? You're going to have forgotten what happened if you put it off too long :P

#6 Posted by No0b0rAmA (1490 posts) -

@Maystack: WvWvW is so overrated.

#7 Posted by Maystack (902 posts) -

@No0b0rAmA: Your face is overrated!

#8 Posted by Dark_Lord_Spam (3151 posts) -
@No0b0rAmA: @Maystack: FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!
#9 Posted by Subjugation (4718 posts) -

@No0b0rAmA: That pasta you sent to me was awful.

#10 Posted by UssjTrunks (534 posts) -
#11 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

You guys are the best : D

#12 Posted by No0b0rAmA (1490 posts) -

THIS IS UNFAIR, IM BEING GANG ON BY YOU WvWvW THUGS.

WvW IS FOR NOOBS.

#13 Posted by RobbieMac (534 posts) -

This thread delivers!

PS: @No0b0rAmA: I love your cooking. Now cook me up some moose meat.

#14 Posted by No0b0rAmA (1490 posts) -

@RobbieMac said:

This thread delivers!

PS: @No0b0rAmA: I love your cooking. Now cook me up some moose meat.

Damn right. I'm a professional GW2 cook. What are you failures doing in GW2?

#15 Posted by shinboy630 (1133 posts) -

Listening to the podcast after being on it a few times is hard! So many thing I wanted to chime in on but couldn't!

#16 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@shinboy630: Post your thoughts here!

I'd like to hear them.

#17 Posted by Elitespy (48 posts) -

@shinboy630: Yeah that is how I feel. I listen to it while at work and want to chime in but can't stop what I am doing and by the time I get home I forget what I wanted to say. =/

#18 Posted by shinboy630 (1133 posts) -

Now that I got a chance to listen to the whole thing, here's my input!

  • I agree that having dyes be account based really sucks, and I too thought it was a bug last beta.
  • Now that I learned from you guys that glory in structured PvP works kinda like a mash up of balth faction and tournament reward points and is used to buy new skins and stuff, I'm a lot more excited about structured PvP, and will probably sink a lot of time into it.
  • On the matter of how many more BWEs I can stomach, I think only 1 more, 2 max. I feel that with the exception of optimization and a few minor bugs here and there, the game is done. What Anet tweaking the dye system, as well as the skill and trait tiers, this late into development tells me is that they want to get everything perfect for launch. While this is a good idea to have (obviously you want to nail down as many things as you can before the game comes out), I also feel that Anet might get caught in this loop of constantly trying to perfect things and saying "No, the way we changed that isn't good enough, let's change it back", and that this might delay the release of the game more than it should. You can change systems after launch if they aren't working correctly, many other successful games have done it.
#19 Edited by Maystack (902 posts) -

I always want to chip in with input, but I keep ending up with loads to write and decide to just not do it.

#20 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@shinboy630:

Thanks shin - I pretty much agree on most of those points. (except sPvP - fuck that shit. At least until release / they make more changes anyway)

And their on-the-fly fixing mentality thus far is a bit concerning to me too.

@Elitespy: @Maystack: Haha - I do not blame y'all. Still, if you ever get around it to, thoughts are always welcome.

#21 Posted by No0b0rAmA (1490 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic: Is it because you're bad at PvP? It's pretty pathetic to blame the game on your clear lack of skill.

#22 Posted by shinboy630 (1133 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic said:

And their on-the-fly fixing mentality thus far is a bit concerning to me too.

It's not so much that mentality, as that helps to balance things post launch, although I can see where you are coming from. I'm just worried that they will not release the game until they are satisfied with all of its systems, yet will never be satisfied. I think the changes they have made that I mentioned back up my point.

#23 Posted by UssjTrunks (534 posts) -

I didn't bother with dyes in GW 1 because I'm not a little girl. But I've heard people on guru say that acquiring dyes in this game is faster and easier than in GW1. The only difference of course is that you have to do it for every character, but how many PvE characters are people going to be rolling anyway?

#24 Edited by UssjTrunks (534 posts) -

@shinboy630 said:

  • On the matter of how many more BWEs I can stomach, I think only 1 more, 2 max. I feel that with the exception of optimization and a few minor bugs here and there, the game is done. What Anet tweaking the dye system, as well as the skill and trait tiers, this late into development tells me is that they want to get everything perfect for launch. While this is a good idea to have (obviously you want to nail down as many things as you can before the game comes out), I also feel that Anet might get caught in this loop of constantly trying to perfect things and saying "No, the way we changed that isn't good enough, let's change it back", and that this might delay the release of the game more than it should. You can change systems after launch if they aren't working correctly, many other successful games have done it.

I'm with you here. The game feels pretty complete. Anet also understands that the longer they take, the more interest people lose. The most important thing in a competitive game is balance, and they've nailed that here. The little bugs and optimization issues can all be quickly fixed, and even if they don't catch all of them right now, they can easily fix them in patches.

#25 Edited by No0b0rAmA (1490 posts) -

@UssjTrunks said:

I didn't bother with dyes in GW 1 because I'm not a little girl. But I've heard people on guru say that acquiring dyes in this game is faster and easier than in GW1. The only difference of course is that you have to do it for every character, but how many PvE characters are people going to be rolling anyway?

I'm probably going to buy a couple of character slots, and all of my chars will be primarily PvE characters. I know I would hate unlocking 400 dyes for each one of them.

#26 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@UssjTrunks said:

I didn't bother with dyes in GW 1 because I'm not a little girl. But I've heard people on guru say that acquiring dyes in this game is faster and easier than in GW1. The only difference of course is that you have to do it for every character, but how many PvE characters are people going to be rolling anyway?

My response to this is probably two fold;

  1. Once you hit max level (in GW1 and most likely in GW2 as well), and you don't need to spend much gold anymore, an outlet for many people (including myself) for that gold is to invest it in prestige armour sets for their character - something which not only gives you a visual indicator of the time you have spent with the game, but also plays into the "loot treadmill" facets of it. Dyes go part and parcel with obtaining that prestige gear, as looking good becomes both a badge of honour and a differentiator between yourself and other players. A lot of people who get really into PvE don't want to look the same as guys who have just hit lvl 20 (or 80 in this case). Also, as for how many characters one rolls, I can say that with the way Arenanet structures it's expansions, at a minimum I roll a new character with each of them as this exposes me to the lion's share of the new lore.
  2. As WvW will be my bag by the looks of things, I will - out of the gate - most likely roll a character for each of the professions I'm best at in that context. This will be a warrior and an elementalist, alongside possibly a guardian and a thief. As WvW is based off your PvE level and gear (unless you plan to go 1-80 in WvW, which you CAN do, albeit slowly), this means I shall probably be taking 4 characters to max level before a single expansion hits (in order to unlock the best gear and traits on all of them rather than relying on level scaling, as to maximise my effectiveness in small parties). If I am taking these characters through PvE, then it becomes a case where I may as well give them prestige gear (assuming I can afford it), as they are lvl80 anyway - and then, as stated earlier - I'll dye them pretty much obligatorily.

So I'm looking at a minimum of 4 characters, with at least one more for each expansion - not even including making more for WvW if I choose to expand my arsenal.

Now, that all said - I'm a person who pretty much sticks to metal grey, leather brown / black and red (to complete the GB colours of white/black/red) - so I may not ever expand into the rarer dyes. HOWEVER, if there is a mystical obsidian dye of awesomeness, I know that I'll have to unlock that for each and every one of my characters.

#27 Posted by Dark_Lord_Spam (3151 posts) -
@selfconfessedcynic said:

if there is a mystical obsidian dye of awesomeness, I know that I'll have to unlock that for each and every one of my characters.

There is apparently a "one true black" among the probably dozen shades of the color, so that will be your dye endgame.
#28 Posted by shinboy630 (1133 posts) -

@UssjTrunks said:

but how many PvE characters are people going to be rolling anyway?

Provided I can get the money/gold/gems/whatever for enough character slots, 1 for each profession, so dyes are a big deal.

#29 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@Dark_Lord_Spam: Oh man, you know what would be cool? If there were dyes which made your gear look worse. Like a metal dye which puts some rust on there or chemical discolouration, maybe some abrasions?

Of red cloth which is burned on the edges and ripped and stuff?

Man. I wish.

Anyway - yeah, I'll shoot for the true black no doubt (as long as it actually looks good).

#30 Edited by UssjTrunks (534 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic said:

@UssjTrunks said:

I didn't bother with dyes in GW 1 because I'm not a little girl. But I've heard people on guru say that acquiring dyes in this game is faster and easier than in GW1. The only difference of course is that you have to do it for every character, but how many PvE characters are people going to be rolling anyway?

My response to this is probably two fold;

  1. Once you hit max level (in GW1 and most likely in GW2 as well), and you don't need to spend much gold anymore, an outlet for many people (including myself) for that gold is to invest it in prestige armour sets for their character - something which not only gives you a visual indicator of the time you have spent with the game, but also plays into the "loot treadmill" facets of it. Dyes go part and parcel with obtaining that prestige gear, as looking good becomes both a badge of honour and a differentiator between yourself and other players. A lot of people who get really into PvE don't want to look the same as guys who have just hit lvl 20 (or 80 in this case). Also, as for how many characters one rolls, I can say that with the way Arenanet structures it's expansions, at a minimum I roll a new character with each of them as this exposes me to the lion's share of the new lore.
  2. As WvW will be my bag by the looks of things, I will - out of the gate - most likely roll a character for each of the professions I'm best at in that context. This will be a warrior and an elementalist, alongside possibly a guardian and a thief. As WvW is based off your PvE level and gear (unless you plan to go 1-80 in WvW, which you CAN do, albeit slowly), this means I shall probably be taking 4 characters to max level before a single expansion hits (in order to unlock the best gear and traits on all of them rather than relying on level scaling, as to maximise my effectiveness in small parties). If I am taking these characters through PvE, then it becomes a case where I may as well give them prestige gear (assuming I can afford it), as they are lvl80 anyway - and then, as stated earlier - I'll dye them pretty much obligatorily.

So I'm looking at a minimum of 4 characters, with at least one more for each expansion - not even including making more for WvW if I choose to expand my arsenal.

Now, that all said - I'm a person who pretty much sticks to metal grey, leather brown / black and red (to complete the GB colours of white/black/red) - so I may not ever expand into the rarer dyes. HOWEVER, if there is a mystical obsidian dye of awesomeness, I know that I'll have to unlock that for each and every one of my characters.

I loved my GW1 60K gear, don't get me wrong, I just didn't care to paint it. :P

On a similar note, does anyone know if the dyes you pick during character creation stick with your throughout the game? All of the armour I received as rewards for personal story quests used the same colour scheme that I picked during character creation (I went with gold/silver which looked totally badass on heavy armour). If this is the case, dyes become less important if you're satisfied with the colours at character creation.

And all of you guys making multiple characters are machines. :D I couldn't even complete a second PvE campaign in GW1 lol. I'll try to have 2 level 80s here though just for some versatility in WvW.

#31 Edited by UssjTrunks (534 posts) -

@Dark_Lord_Spam said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

if there is a mystical obsidian dye of awesomeness, I know that I'll have to unlock that for each and every one of my characters.

There is apparently a "one true black" among the probably dozen shades of the color, so that will be your dye endgame.

Is there a white dye? That's a dye I might actually work towards lol. I'd love to have White Mantle type armour.

#32 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@UssjTrunks: There is white dye in the original GW - I'll bet there are a number of these in GW2. Though, I'd prefer like a cracked white with some algae-coloured staining/moss all over it. I like grunge in my fantasy, if y'all haven't noticed (think portal - brilliant colours and bright whites, but with grunge around the edges)

Oh, and if you want a good look at how dyes work in GW2, check out the original post by Kristen Perry http://www.arena.net/blog/live-and-let-dye-kristen-perry-on-the-gw2-dye-system

It's actually a very interesting read. Just ignore the part where she says that dyes are unlocked on an account basis. : /

ED: But to answer your quandrie in short, your dye selection is remembered for all of the slots you have customised (this includes the customisation done during character creation and any subsequent modifications done in the inventory screen). Things go a bit wonky when you get a new piece of armour where there was none before (like when you get shoulder things for the first time) or when you're going from something with 1 dye channel to 2 or 3, and you have to re-define what you want the palette to be for that slot. After all of the above have been set, any new piece of gear you get is automatically dyed to your previous specifications.

It's a great system imo, especially since you never have to worry about paying to switch colours once you have them unlocked. The big question is whether you can buy dyes in game or get them through the auction house - I didn't see either, but I probably just missed them. Will investigate during the stress test tonight.

#33 Posted by Dark_Lord_Spam (3151 posts) -
@selfconfessedcynic: I checked last beta, and as of then it was impossible to place dyes on the auction house.
#34 Posted by Subjugation (4718 posts) -

Man, you guys don't need all 400 dyes. There will be countless shades of the same colo(u)r where the difference will be so minute as to be almost indistinguishable from one another. I mean, think about it. Can you think of 400 colo(u)rs? I'll be totally satisfied as long as I have a shade that is close to what I want. Probably a light and dark version of each main colo(u)r. I won't be able to tell the difference between "summer breeze" and "twilight blush". Parenthesis "u" work for all of my non-American friends, because I care.

#35 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@Subjugation: You know? Noone likes fence sitters. What are you? Swiss? : )

Anyway - it all comes down to the texture tones. I think in that blog post I linked Kristen goes into it, but I know it was discussed on a panel at some point - colours have a texture attached, so on some materials they impart a leathery look or a metallic look for example (though chainmail will generally always look like chainmail I believe). Also, from their beta patch notes before, it sounds like glows will be a thing (tough it was talking about Sylvari glow, I would not be surprised if this extended to dyes as well). If I could "glow" darkness wherever I apply the true black, I'd go far and wide to find that dye.

Anyway - I'm posting it here, as you guys have supported us for the show and barely anyone reads this (so it'll remain a surprise to most), but I'm announcing that we'll be doing a GB forums-only Lincolncast special in which we talk about the new Mass Effect 3 endings and the stress test tomorrow (though it may only go up the day after).

Tune in.

#36 Posted by Subjugation (4718 posts) -

@selfconfessedcynic: ... Please excuse me as I go eat a tub of ice cream and cry myself to sleep. All I ever wanted to do was to unite people, to break down the walls, to erase the boundaries and promote solidarity but no, you just wouldn't have it.

#37 Posted by shinboy630 (1133 posts) -

@Subjugation said:

@selfconfessedcynic: ... Please excuse me as I go eat a tub of ice cream and cry myself to sleep. All I ever wanted to do was to unite people, to break down the walls, to erase the boundaries and promote solidarity but no, you just wouldn't have it.

Don't worry, It's ok.

#38 Posted by Dark_Lord_Spam (3151 posts) -

The character-based dye system is, as far as I'm concerned, a bunch of shit. I'm the type of person who compulsively chases that unattainable 100% game completion number as much as I can, and whereas before I was looking forward to collecting every dye and have it be a neat personal achievement, ArenaNet has now turned it into a soul-sucking tedium of grind and dice-rolls that will make my experience just that much less enjoyable.
 
I guess it could make sense for them from a financial standpoint, but it's not as though unlocking all of the shades wouldn't already be expensive. If I'm extremely generous and assume that you can unlock 100 dyes from a normal play-through of the game, then that leaves around 300 to collect through the gem store. If I'm again very generous and say that you got all 300 in 160 Dye Packs (at 3 per pack and assuming the possibility of getting duplicates remains from the beta), and if 100 gems cost $1 USD (seems to be the case from comparing Gem Store products to similar products from the GW1 in-game store), then it would still cost three-hundred and twenty mother-fucking buckaroos to unlock everything. AND THAT'S WITH ACCOUNT-WIDE UNLOCKS. I'm already wary of spending money on them, because of the experience I had in the first game where I bought the PvP versions of all three campaigns in the in-game store for $120 to unlock all skills for use in PvP, only to have those replaced with unlock packs that were $10 each a few months later. If ArenaNet back-tracks with the dyes, then insane people who blew the bank on full dye access across all characters will have wasted even more money than I did.
 
It's not directly comparable to the GW1 dye market, either, since while the mechanics are technically more sophisticated, buying dyes from merchants or other players in this game is impossible. ArenaNet have sole control of the distribution here.
 
My response to their claim that I would just instantly use the same 3 ultra-rare colors on every character is first, who gives a fuck if that's what a player really wants to do with their character's appearance and second, "no, that's dumb". I want to care about individualizing every alt I create, because the game encourages it with systems like the personal story. The way dyes are now, it sounds like every single one of them will have access to the same 10 shades of common browns for the first half of the game.
 
The idea that you guys put forward of making some dyes account-bound and some end-game character-bound rewards is, I think, a happy medium. There are about 70 rare dyes based on the wiki, which means that if karma vendors started to offer them as rewards after level 50 or so, it could be a decent system. As it is now, it just gets me down.
 
/wall o' text

#39 Posted by Maystack (902 posts) -

By the way, I was on the guild wars 2 subreddit yesterday and someone asked what the best GW2 podcasts were. Lincolncast was in the top comments. That might get some more exposure.

#40 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@Maystack: we... were... huh?

Man, I completely forgot about the whole reddit thing. I kindof passed that stuff off to to figure out (I'm not a reddit user, so wasn't sure how to start posting stuff there in an effective manner). Anyway, it looks like not much got done on those lines in the end, as I never really followed up with him.

Anyway - that is a nice surprise. I assume it was dudes around these parts who up voted us or whatever people do on reddit.

@Dark_Lord_Spam: I read that wall of text in the morning before watching Brave today, forgot to comment on it. In short - you're pretty much on the money for a lot of people out there, and I suspect very much agrees with your sentiment.

Man, I can't wait for you to get your new box and mic so I can get you on - only 2 months to go man, get your shit together! (of course, I assume you're looking forward to it more than I am : P )

#41 Posted by Maystack (902 posts) -
#42 Posted by TheHT (10871 posts) -

Good listen. I think the character-based dye change is fine. Despite any cynical hidden agendas, their reasoning of wanting the dyes to also reflect character development per character rather than having that development happen once for your whole GW2 experience (I doubt there are many people who have alternate accounts) I can get behind.

Then again, like you guys said, 400 dyes. Dunno how they'll be spreading it out, but it doesn't seem like it'll be a particularly easy thing to unlock all 400 during one run to the level cap.

#43 Edited by Dourin (232 posts) -

Yeah, after the initial upload and immediate downvote/burying of our first attempt at breaking through on reddit, coupled with the negative sentiments from people here on these forums toward the idea of expanding to reddit, I decided to just back off for the time being. However, if we have been discovered by redditors through other means, and they enjoy what we do, I have no problems trying a second time. I have created a thread on reddit explaining a bit about who we are, and why we're coming to reddit. Hopefully this works out better than the video link we did last time. The reddit post can be found here.

#44 Posted by Maystack (902 posts) -
@Dourin Gave it an upvote. Hopefully it gets some exposure. Was thinking about leaving a comment like "yeah this podcast is awesome" but it seemed a bit shameless.
#45 Posted by Dourin (232 posts) -

Meh, you're not a host on the podcast, so I would think it'd be ok if you were so inclined.

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