So, I've got plenty of issues with Heavy Rain's plot, but, the biggest plothole that bothered me and I just can't let go is this:
According to the game Shelby killed Manfred while Lauren was checking out the music box, you know.....this is pretty dumb by itself but I can at least kinda accept this.
No the real issue comes when you press the button to hear his thoughts after the scene with the music box.
"' I wonder whats taking manfred so long....?''
WHAT
Seriously David Cage?
That's not a "unreliable narrator" that's not a ""macguffin". Its a poor and shitty way to trick your audience and it completely shatters your game's logic. So, is there an explanation for this? or is this really just another one of Heavy Rain's inconsistencies?'Cause I really don't see how anyone can justify this.
Heavy Rain
Game » consists of 12 releases. Released Jan 25, 2010
An interactive thriller from the studio behind Indigo Prophecy, sporting a dark storyline involving the investigation of a mysterious serial killer.
(ENDING SPOILERS)So how does this make sense?
There's that and the Father's (Sorry, it's been a while) blackouts. I don't think it explained those either.
" There's that and the Father's (Sorry, it's been a while) blackouts. I don't think it explained those either. "Those are almost just as stupid as this is, but, atleast those things don't involve straight up lying to the player.
@Undeadpool said:
" Not a Macguffin, it's a red herring. Like Communism. "
Um......no.
that is NOT a red herring. This is called lying to the audience so that they don't suspect the killer.
Which is embarrassingly bad
Although, I guess David Cage doesn't even understand the most basic literary devices. Did anyone here read the interview where he called the Ethan blackout bullshit a macguffin?.....yeah, no David Cage.
I should have know after Fahrenheit.
" There's that and the Father's (Sorry, it's been a while) blackouts. I don't think it explained those either. "Actually, THAT'S probably the most infuriating plot point. I mean, why the fuck does he have blackouts featuring origami and drowning if he has absolutely nothing to do with either origami or drowning people? That was nothing but a cheap, poorly thought out red herring that really didn't need to be in the game.
" @Wes899 said:" There's that and the Father's (Sorry, it's been a while) blackouts. I don't think it explained those either. "Actually, THAT'S probably the most infuriating plot point. I mean, why the fuck does he have blackouts featuring origami and drowning i
You man you just don't get it Shelby was hiding in his closet everytime ethan blacked out and threw in canabury street with an origami, this SHIT IS TOO DEEP FOR YOU
(Ugh, heavy rain fan explanations suck)
" @Spiral_Stars said:People drive on the wrong side of the road, cops don't have guns, and musicians sing about being walruses! It must be fucking chaos1" Its British. Nothing makes sense over there. "wut "
" @Spiral_Stars said:Oh hah! I just read that on the wiki here. I thought having British voice actors doing American accents would imply that it was a British studio making the game. Well, I have nothing bad to say about France. Ubisoft makes some rad games." @mutha3 said:David Cage is french, dude. "" @Spiral_Stars said:People drive on the wrong side of the road, cops don't have guns, and musicians sing about being walruses! It must be fucking chaos1 "" Its British. Nothing makes sense over there. "wut "
What I don't get is how he could go to his brother's grave and act like he doesn't know him. I know he has to keep up an appearance for Lauren, but he was really good at it!
" What I don't get is how he could go to his brother's grave and act like he doesn't know him. I know he has to keep up an appearance for Lauren, but he was really good at it! "Those are just small nicks compared to the massive plotvortex that is Ethan Mars little "escapades'' and Shelby thinking about things that he shouldn't really be thinking about in the first place.
Ethan's blackouts really were confusing. I knew he couldn't be the killer because it was just too early in the game to make that kind of suggestion, but they never explained what that was all about.
" @Wes899 said:They don't really NEED to explain the blackouts. The guy has blackouts...it's a mental problem. I don't know why everyone has such issues with this, dude was struck by a car, maybe he has brain damage. THAT was a red herring. I knew the other thing wasn't actually a red herring, I just love referencing the Clue movie." There's that and the Father's (Sorry, it's been a while) blackouts. I don't think it explained those either. "Those are almost just as stupid as this is, but, atleast those things don't involve straight up lying to the player.
@Undeadpool said:" Not a Macguffin, it's a red herring. Like Communism. "Um......no.that is NOT a red herring. This is called lying to the audience so that they don't suspect the killer. Which is embarrassingly bad Although, I guess David Cage doesn't even understand the most basic literary devices. Did anyone here read the interview where he called the Ethan blackout bullshit a macguffin?.....yeah, no David Cage. I should have know after Fahrenheit. "
Of course they need to explain those blackouts! Ethan doesn't just have blackouts and faint like a normal person,if this would have happend no one would complain., because it wouldn't be relevant to the plot The problem here is that Ethan doesn't just blackout, he wakes up on canabury street with a origami in his hand every time and has visions of drowing kids, coincidentally all on the same day and time that Shelby decides to don a police outfit and kidnap kids." @mutha3 said:
" @Wes899 said:They don't really NEED to explain the blackouts. The guy has blackouts...it's a mental problem. I don't know why everyone has such issues with this, dude was struck by a car, maybe he has brain damage. THAT was a red herring" There's that and the Father's (Sorry, it's been a while) blackouts. I don't think it explained those either. "Those are almost just as stupid as this is, but, atleast those things don't involve straight up lying to the player.
@Undeadpool said:" Not a Macguffin, it's a red herring. Like Communism. "Um......no.that is NOT a red herring. This is called lying to the audience so that they don't suspect the killer. Which is embarrassingly bad Although, I guess David Cage doesn't even understand the most basic literary devices. Did anyone here read the interview where he called the Ethan blackout bullshit a macguffin?.....yeah, no David Cage. I should have know after Fahrenheit. "
You can't explain this away by calling it a red herring, this is complete and utter bullshit. Ethan has NO reason to be in canabury street when those visions happen nor is it ever explained why he suddenly has origami figures in his hand.
If you're gonna say that you may as well say they don't need to explain anything and just have the game end when you press new game.
A personal thought of mine is the Orchid Pollen. The oragami killer is drenched in the stuff, maybe Ethan has a powerful reaction to it which causes blackouts? Jayden's ARI shows the dense trail the killer leaves behind. All he's gotta do is wait for Ethan to breathe in a good amount and drop. Then he can take advantage of the child and the father by "Assisting them" to the hospital (like a good citizen). Drops off Ethan at Carnaby with an origami and takes the boy with him.
In the house he could just be hiding somewhere, waiting for Ethan to drop. It'd be pressing a bit of luck though.
Also he could have kidnapped the child right then too :\
Either way it makes more sense than just "I pass out, no one seems to care/notice me.. Ill walk away and leave the child and go home.
A kotaku article just went up on this subject.
http://kotaku.com/5512064/spelunking-through-heavy-rains-plot-holes-[spoilers]
Thats is pure speculation, with no basis in the actual story. Besides, this is supposed to be a psychological drama. You can't have deus ex machina's like ''MAGICAL POLLEN'' and expect your audience to take it seriously when the rest of the game is supposed to be realistic.
Maybe it would remove the plothole , but it would just be even more silly.
@Wes899 said:
" A kotaku article just went up on this subject.
http://kotaku.com/5512064/spelunking-through-heavy-rains-plot-holes-[spoilers] "
Awesome.
It's only a plot hole if you think a) the camera is objective b) the game takes place entirely in real time. This obviously isn't the case. I took it as she was spaced out and wasn't paying attention. She got lost in examining the music box. The music plays so it seems clear to me that we are in her perspective so it is unreliable. It's not anymore of a trick than showing a guy exiting his car from the driveway, then the camera cutting and he's standing at the front door. Most of the time these things are done for pacing. I think it would have been even more obvious and stupid if it dwells for 30 seconds of her spacing out to that stupid music box. Anyway, all mysteries employ red herrings and other tricks to deceive the audience. If they portrayed everything perfectly as they are it would likely seem a bit too obvious and then it would be boring. If you don't like getting deceived then maybe don't indulge in this kind of story. Those are just my thoughts from my study of movies.
Fixed."Anyway, all bad,trashy mysteries employ red herrings and other tricks to deceive the audience. If they portrayed everything perfectly as they are it would likely seem a bit too obvious and then it would be boring. If you don't like getting deceived then maybe don't indulge in this kind of story. Those are just my thoughts from my study of movies. "
Shelby thinking ''huh whats taking manfred so long'' can't be handwaved as a ''red herring''. That is straight up lying to the audience, one of the worst things a murder mystery can do.
A good murder mystery makes you think you've figured it all out and when the truth gets revealed, you suddenly realize that the hints you have been given, the events that happened in the story and the interaction between the characters all foreshadowed this.
A mediocre murder mystery relies on flimsy explanation and coincidence to throw you off the trail on who the real killer is. In the end, despite not being well excecuted, atleast, these things make sense.
A shitty murder mystery will twist the entire narrative's internal logic and lie to the audience in order to protect its twist. Writers who employ this don't realize having a cohesive story and well-written characters is infinitely more important then their stupid 'twist'.
If Manfred was killed in that interlude where she looks at the music box: Shelby should not be having the thought ''I wonder what's taking manfred so long '' AFTER KILLING HIM.Try reading the OP next time.
What is also weird is how Madison reacts when she finds out who the other son was.
Still like the game though.
" What is also weird is how Madison reacts when she finds out who the other son was.Not to mention when she first saw Ethan her thoughts were 'who is this person'' and ''that man looks like he's in pain''.
She had a shocking look on her face for no reason, because she had never met the person at all. And she also knew where they lived? What the hell. It's pretty obvious that a lot of stuff must have been cut from the final product. C'mon Quantic Dream this stuff isn't hard, choose your own adventure books have been doing it for decades.
Then out of nowhere we suddenly find out that the reason she approached Ethan was because of her story.
.....what?
" Not to mention when she first saw Ethan her thoughts were 'who is this person'' and ''that man looks like he's in pain''. Then out of nowhere we suddenly find out that the reason she approached Ethan was because of her story. .....what? "To be honest, I'm actually kind of comfortable with that lie. Considering she's been lying to Ethan the whole time, I feel like it's kind of fitting that the player, who I feel like is supposed to identify with Ethan the most in spite of there being the four playable characters, is ultimately lied to about Madison's true motives. It makes her look like super manipulative (which she kind of is, when you think about it) and it would've been nice if they played up that part of her personality a little more to add that dimension to her outside of thinking after you've beaten the game: "you know, Madison gives practically every character in the game the runaround"... but they didn't. Kind of poor characterization, but I'll let it slide.
Scott Shelby being the Origami Killer and the Blackouts, however...
" @mutha3: Im just so sick of everyone picking every little detail of this game apart. What it did was special and unique. MW2 got it's own bombcast for it's story and it was FULL of plotholes and literary stretches. I know the story is not the focus of MW2 and it is the focus of Heavy Rain, but what that game did was special. People need to stop kicking it and start realizing that despite it not being perfect, that game did something that no other game has even tried to do. "So what?
Good storytelling is good storytelling, and bad storytelling is... well, you get the idea. Why should Heavy Rain get a free pass for having glaring plotholes and inconsistencies solely on the basis of it being some special snowflake? If you don't bring a good writing to the table, and you're selling yourself primarily on the strength of your writing, I'm going to call you out on it.
" @Akeldama said:I agree the plotholes are there. I dont think it should get a free pass by any means. All I'm saying is give the game some fucking credit. It tried a completely unique way of telling its (flawed) story. That in itself deserves some kudos." @mutha3: Im just so sick of everyone picking every little detail of this game apart. What it did was special and unique. MW2 got it's own bombcast for it's story and it was FULL of plotholes and literary stretches. I know the story is not the focus of MW2 and it is the focus of Heavy Rain, but what that game did was special. People need to stop kicking it and start realizing that despite it not being perfect, that game did something that no other game has even tried to do. "So what? Good storytelling is good storytelling, and bad storytelling is... well, you get the idea. Why should Heavy Rain get a free pass for having glaring plotholes and inconsistencies solely on the basis of it being some special snowflake? If you don't bring a good writing to the table, and you're selling yourself primarily on the strength of your writing, I'm going to call you out on it. "
The giantbomb guys made fun of MW2 story though, and it stirred up quite a controversy in the press AND it was like, the most anticipated game in the last couple of years." @mutha3: Im just so sick of everyone picking every little detail of this game apart. What it did was special and unique. MW2 got it's own bombcast for it's story and it was FULL of plotholes and literary stretches. I know the story is not the focus of MW2 and it is the focus of Heavy Rain, but what that game did was special. People need to stop kicking it and start realizing that despite it not being perfect, that game did something that no other game has even tried to do. "
The bolded part is downright silly, I can easily name 10 games with better writing then Heavy Rain, some dark, some lighthearted all better executed and more emotionally gripping(or interesting).
@iAmJohn said:
" @mutha3 said:
" Not to mention when she first saw Ethan her thoughts were 'who is this person'' and ''that man looks like he's in pain''. Then out of nowhere we suddenly find out that the reason she approached Ethan was because of her story. .....what? "To be honest, I'm actually kind of comfortable with that lie. Considering she's been lying to Ethan the whole time, I feel like it's kind of fitting that the player, who I feel like is supposed to identify with Ethan the most in spite of there being the four playable characters, is ultimately lied to about Madison's true motives. It makes her look like super manipulative (which she kind of is, when you think about it) and it would've been nice if they played up that part of her personality a little more to add that dimension to her outside of thinking after you've beaten the game: "you know, Madison gives practically every character in the game the runaround"... but they didn't. Kind of poor characterization, but I'll let it slide. Scott Shelby being the Origami Killer and the Blackouts, however... "
But you know, there is a difference between deceiving your audience and lying to them. If David Cage would have been able to make us feel attached to Madison, and conveniently sweep those thoughts under the rug and replace them with something ambiguos: It could have been a touching scene.
As it is now, Madison has the worst motive from all 4 characters and we ,the audience, are expected to care who she is when she helps Ethan for now discernable reason other then '''he has a nice ass.' When the scene with Madison and Ethan happened I could hardly pay attention because of my annoyance at the whole''Oh, i followed you because you are related to the origami murder even though i shouldn't have any idea who you are.''
It also really bothers me that the police in Heavy Rain make the police in Phoenix Wright seem like a Sherlock Holmes squad. Scott's ''Investigations'' was basically:
''HAI GUYZ DO YOU KNOW ANYTHIGN ABOUT HTE ORIGAMI KILLER; OH LOOKIE AT THIS ABOX OF CLUES THE KILLER SENT YOU FILLED WITH ORIGAMI WHICH YOU DIDN'T GIVE TO THE POLICE? AND THE FATHERS OF THE VICTIMS ALL DISSAPAERED?''
" @Akeldama: Sure, and I like the game plenty for all the seemingly mundane and yet interestingly immersive stuff it did. But that doesn't excuse the fact that its story was rather middling. And since that was the major selling point of the game... "Yes the story could have been better. However, the way the story was told was innovative and in my opinion, the true selling point of the game.
" But that doesn't excuse the fact that its story was rather middling. And since that was the major selling point of the game... "..... you get a game which is pretty mediocre in general.
There is plenty of bad writing to be found in videogames, but those don't really matter much,because, They always have gameplay to fall back on. Heavy rain has a sub-par story, ergo, it does not deserve merit.
On the other hand, the game is really pretty.
" @mutha3: Im just so sick of everyone picking every little detail of this game apart. What it did was special and unique. MW2 got it's own bombcast for it's story and it was FULL of plotholes and literary stretches. I know the story is not the focus of MW2 and it is the focus of Heavy Rain, but what that game did was special. People need to stop kicking it and start realizing that despite it not being perfect, that game did something that no other game has even tried to do. "Nothing was special about the game beyond the pretty nice graphics. When you market a game as OMG REVOLUTIONARY and talk about the story non stop ad the story is a fucking mess your damn right people should call it out. Just like if Modern Warfare two had shitty shooting mechanics. Sad thing is i'm not sure which games story was worse.
" @mutha3 said:Dude, those are French actors doing U.S English accents. Check the wiki again." @Spiral_Stars said:Oh hah! I just read that on the wiki here. I thought having British voice actors doing American accents would imply that it was a British studio making the game. Well, I have nothing bad to say about France. Ubisoft makes some rad games. "" @mutha3 said:David Cage is french, dude. "" @Spiral_Stars said:People drive on the wrong side of the road, cops don't have guns, and musicians sing about being walruses! It must be fucking chaos1 "" Its British. Nothing makes sense over there. "wut "
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