From what I've seen of Hotline Miami from before release it looked great. A simple concept executed well with style. But soon after launch I was scared away with stories of horrendous bugs and constant patches.

This whole situation gives me a deja vu of the Xcom launch. That game reviewed very well and frankly I didn't understand it. Dont get me wrong Xcom is a great game, but hindered by a lot of annoying and potentially game breaking bugs for some people (hit % being wrong).

So how is it that games like Xcom and Hotline Miami seem to get a pass in terms of overall technical polish? I cant buy the game right now, not because I cant afford it, but because I dont want a buggy experience. Granted they've patched the game since, but I'm not sold until the community stops reporting the various bugs and frankly I want to play it with a gamepad. I was burned by Xcom preordering it. I wish I had waited as I hope the game gets patched to fix the issues. Burned is maybe a strong word, but when the critics I trust give no mention of technical issues and then I experience a lot fo them it makes me wonder how that happened.

I understand deadlines and release dates, which is even more important for an indie release like Hotline Miami due to the short lived nature of indie game hype.

So what is the issue? Hype getting out of control? Or have gamers an critics just become accustomed to the patching process and release bugs can be forgiven a bit, especially with a hyped indie release that probably deserves the limelight?

I'm waiting for gamepad support, hoepfully the other bugs will be worked out by the time they add this back in.

Game is awesome, music is awesome and gamepad support is already available. See the forums on steam. You have to update your gamepad driver and make a "xbox2" file in the steam folder for hotline miami. I bought the game today after watching the quick look.

ps. i havent experienced any bugs. played the game about 1 hour so far.

I've played through almost all of Hotline Miami, and only encountered one minor bug that was fixed by restarting the game. Some of the bugs I've encountered in XCOM are a bit more irritating, but they're not at all frequent enough for me to be able to say that they've significantly reduced my enjoyment.

Reports of bugs online are often exaggerated, simply because the people experiencing the bugs are the ones being vocal.

You should just get the game and try it.

@Chaser324: Yes, indeed usually a vocal minority. But if someone is having the issues, you may as well. Since its available on steam everyone gets the same data, the same updates. I haven't gone into great detail about the hardware specifics of users reports the bugs, but I dont want to risk it. And I honestly have time for other games and little for researching if my hardware will be affected by Hotline Miami. AS a product I want it to be the experience I am advertised.

Significantly reduce is a weird term that we all use when it comes to these types of issues. Why does it have to be significant to be considered a reduction of enjoyment or quality? If something that was not intended by the developers occurs and it reduces that quality or enjoyment even the slightest, it still reduced it.

One or two bugs in Xcom is fine, but when the game lies to you about the hit % I'd put it into the significant category. That is if someone even notices it or ever has a 100% shot miss.

Since I cannot guarantee I will have a quality experience with Hotline Miami I cant drop $10 on it. Even if those in the minority are loud, they exist and have been heard.

@MrOldboy: Is your issue with the hit percentage even actually a bug? It's always been my interpretation that the hit percentages do not surface all factors of whether or not you hit/miss.

Ive been having a horrible framerate problem with the game just slowing to a crawl. I have no clue what is causing it or how to fix it.

this game lacks polish but makes up in swedish

@MrOldboy: Wait, you're still having problems with XCOM? What are you playing it on? It does have some odd things to it on occasion, but it's still an amazing game. The game is quite polished all the way through; there's a lot of apparent love in it. It has its issues, but the game itself is a real gem. Don't let forum worriers stop you from enjoying some great games.

As far as Hotline Miami goes, it's a small indie game made by a duo who got some awesome music. It is definitely buggy at the moment, but the developers are actively working to fix that. For many, they run into no issues with the game. For others, issues pop up. If you get the game now, there's more of a chance that it will work for you than it won't, and even if it somehow didn't work, the developer is working on updating it. You don't necessarily have to get Hotline Miami today, but definitely get it eventually.

@MrOldboy said:

So what is the issue? Hype getting out of control? Or have gamers an critics just become accustomed to the patching process and release bugs can be forgiven a bitt?

Its only 8 bucks.

Ok, after some more research it seems like a lot of the major bugs have been maybe fixed. At least the devs have said as such, maybe too early to tell for real though. Read a few posts that indicated the framerate bug is still in effect. I ended up trading my friend a game I had in my inventory for it so I'll see I guess. I wish the gamepad support was in the game by default.

@TruthTellah: The issue is that when the hit % says XXX it should mean XXX. I made a post about something similar in the Xcom forum and was then told there about the game lying about the percentages. Its a strategy game, not surfacing something is one thing. As in the shot says 50-70% and doesn't say why it cant be exact because you haven't unlocked something or the alien has something you dont know about yet (not that any of this is in the game, just an example). Its another thing when the game clearly says 70%, it even shows you the "math" its using if you click the left stick. Then the hit doesn't hit 70% of the time. That's either a bug of a poor design choice. From what I've been able to read a lot of people have noticed this and I cant find anything that suggests Firaxis fudged the numbers to increase the drama of a mission or is it just a calculation error in their code. I've heard that they fudged numbers in Civ 5 and Dave Lang mentioned this during the TNT. I was hoping someone would jump in and mention some people were saying the percentages were off or something.

edit: Does the game have really bad screen tearing or is that part of the aesthetic? I read a few things saying it would be fixed before release and some more posts with people complaining about it. Just curious is if that is even an issue or is it ment to be?

Gamepad feels, weird. I wanted to use my 360 controller because I have my PC hooked up to my TV right now and dont want to move it back to my desk.

@MrOldboy said:

Ok, after some more research it seems like a lot of the major bugs have been maybe fixed. At least the devs have said as such, maybe too early to tell for real though. Read a few posts that indicated the framerate bug is still in effect. I ended up trading my friend a game I had in my inventory for it so I'll see I guess. I wish the gamepad support was in the game by default.

@TruthTellah: The issue is that when the hit % says XXX it should mean XXX. I made a post about something similar in the Xcom forum and was then told there about the game lying about the percentages. Its a strategy game, not surfacing something is one thing. As in the shot says 50-70% and doesn't say why it cant be exact because you haven't unlocked something or the alien has something you dont know about yet (not that any of this is in the game, just an example). Its another thing when the game clearly says 70%, it even shows you the "math" its using if you click the left stick. Then the hit doesn't hit 70% of the time. That's either a bug of a poor design choice. From what I've been able to read a lot of people have noticed this and I cant find anything that suggests Firaxis fudged the numbers to increase the drama of a mission or is it just a calculation error in their code. I've heard that they fudged numbers in Civ 5 and Dave Lang mentioned this during the TNT. I was hoping someone would jump in and mention some people were saying the percentages were off or something.

edit: Does the game have really bad screen tearing or is that part of the aesthetic? I read a few things saying it would be fixed before release and some more posts with people complaining about it. Just curious is if that is even an issue or is it ment to be?

Gamepad feels, weird. I wanted to use my 360 controller because I have my PC hooked up to my TV right now and dont want to move it back to my desk.

I don't think the percentages are bugged at all. They're just very Firaxis-esque percentages, and they're definitely increased to give a false sense of security. Almost every person I've ever met who has played the game has gotten used to the percentages, as they see that even the enemies are screwed on the percentages. It's a fair system which -demands- that you take a step back and not get too risky; the lives of your team are paramount. You can't take anything for granted. You might need to let a country burn just to save some of your team, allowing you a better chance to win the broader war.

When it comes to the percentages, I would say to assume a lower chance than what they're throwing out there, unless it's 100%. If it's 100%, it's going to hit. If it's 94%, there's a very good chance it will hit. 85% is a reasonable shot that you can believe will hit. sub-70% is something you should never rely on hitting. And sub-40% is going to miss more often than not. Though, the game tends to send home the message that you should rarely ever rely on a single shot. If you have placed your team in a position where you're relying on one shot to hit, you've either made a mistake somewhere or you're playing on the highest difficulty. Within a few minutes, you get used to the percentages and what they really mean in the gameplay. It's an eccentricity, not something that genuinely takes away from the game.

If you like strategy games, XCOM is fantastic, and you should pick it up. As far as Hotline Miami goes, you can wait another few days for more patching if you prefer.

When you're having fun it's easier to look past problems.

I think a lot of it also comes from the fact that it was made by a few dudes. It's easy to forgive a game and the problems it has when only a few people worked on it. Should it get a pass? No, but it's real easy to do.

I'm almost finished with the game and I haven't come across any bugs or crashes yet.

dunno about Xcom patching, but Cactus has been pretty vocal about working on patching HLM.

IMO All games that have problems that are fixable should be given a pass knowing that it will eventually work out, it's the ones that have fundamental problems that should be faulted.

@ViciousReiven said:

IMO All games that have problems that are fixable should be given a pass knowing that it will eventually work out, it's the ones that have fundamental problems that should be faulted.

Just because problems are theoretically fixable doesn't mean that they'll be fixed, or that they should be excused for having such issues. PS3 Skyrim players know this too well.

Apparently a patch is forthcoming, so you may want to wait. Aside from some bugs, I've enjoyed it quite a bit; it's simple, satisfying and aesthetically pleasing, both visually and aurally.

It is an interesting problem but ultimately reviewers only look at their experience with the game. If they don't experience bugs while they're playing than they don't factor it in. Papo & Yo was a game where a lot of sites experienced bugs and it was reflected in the score. I played that game to completion in a night and experienced no bugs.

@ViciousReiven said:

IMO All games that have problems that are fixable should be given a pass knowing that it will eventually work out, it's the ones that have fundamental problems that should be faulted.

Just because problems are theoretically fixable doesn't mean that they'll be fixed, or that they should be excused for having such issues. PS3 Skyrim players know this too well.

    

The hit % in XCOM I don't think is busted. The worst thing is the line of sight issues which are indeed pretty bad. Didn't stop me from having a great time with the game and it being my GOTY so far. Also gave my sniper tons of extra kills!

Apparently I, like many others, can overlook some tech issues and have faith that they will be fixed when the core game is this great.

@Hailinel said:

@ViciousReiven said:

IMO All games that have problems that are fixable should be given a pass knowing that it will eventually work out, it's the ones that have fundamental problems that should be faulted.

Just because problems are theoretically fixable doesn't mean that they'll be fixed, or that they should be excused for having such issues. PS3 Skyrim players know this too well.

    

If a problem is fixable and nothing is done about it then you can throw all the blame you want, but when a developer acknowledges problems and do their damndest to fix them I see no reason why it should change someone's opinion on the good game.

Rather than XCOM this release reminds me of another indie game FTL's launch. Buggy buggy buggy but also really really cool.

The experience of playing outweighs the technical issues. They should be mentioned, but if you're ultimately having a great time, why spend too much time on it? It's when technical issues PREVENT enjoying a game is when you begin to harp on them.

For what it's worth, I played multiple hours of Hotline Miami without any music because it was just that fun. I had the 4-track EP playing in the background, which helped. I do believe most of the Hotline Miami problems have been fixed and gamepad support is being tested for re-release.

I'm in the same boat as the OP. I think it looks neat, but I have other games I want to play before I drop $10 on something that may not work right. Either they will fix it in the next month or so, or it will be on sale somewhere and I'll be more inclined to take the risk.

@TruthTellah said:

@MrOldboy: Wait, you're still having problems with XCOM? What are you playing it on? It does have some odd things to it on occasion, but it's still an amazing game. The game is quite polished all the way through; there's a lot of apparent love in it. It has its issues, but the game itself is a real gem. Don't let forum worriers stop you from enjoying some great games.

As far as Hotline Miami goes, it's a small indie game made by a duo who got some awesome music. It is definitely buggy at the moment, but the developers are actively working to fix that. For many, they run into no issues with the game. For others, issues pop up. If you get the game now, there's more of a chance that it will work for you than it won't, and even if it somehow didn't work, the developer is working on updating it. You don't necessarily have to get Hotline Miami today, but definitely get it eventually.

Dude, don't get me started on Xcom bugs.

There are two game breaking ones that can result in your entire fire-team being permanently 'on mission' of you do a certain chain of events.

Also, I've had enemies teleport into the middle of my units plenty of times. And we're talking mutons, not any of the flying types. And they've clearly just spawned because they don't trigger any of my overwatches.

I've had people not have line of sight despite having no obstructions, I've had the game lock up several times or refuse to let me do anything but move.

Frankly, I pity anyone who did their first playthrough on Ironman classic because, while I'm playing on that difficulty, sometimes I get totally screwed due to something that wasn't my fault at all.

@Hailinel said:

@ViciousReiven said:

IMO All games that have problems that are fixable should be given a pass knowing that it will eventually work out, it's the ones that have fundamental problems that should be faulted.

Just because problems are theoretically fixable doesn't mean that they'll be fixed, or that they should be excused for having such issues. PS3 Skyrim players know this too well.

Exactly. Look at Fez. Uhh hey guys another patch would cost us too much money, so enjoy the game you already paid for knowing the issues will never be fixed.

@TruthTellah: This way of thinking just confuses me even more. Why should the player be responsible to calculating what the actual hit % is based on the game's dodgy math and/or presentation of that math? "Firaxis like" percentages means WRONG percentages. A percentage is simple math, how the fuck can it be taken any other way. 50% should mean that an event will occur 1/2 the time (if the sample size is large enough). That is the same in every country, every language, every time period, every everything. Its math. And yes people have reported missing 100% shots, that is unacceptable in a modern video game with the time and budget Firaxis had and the amount they are charging for said game.

I dont care how much you or I love Firaxis and their games, presenting the percentages in such a way, in a strategy game where sometimes you have to bank on one or a few shots because the game is designed to be hard that way, is just a poor design choice.

I own Xcom, I preordered it, hence why I am frustrated with the bugs and issues with that game.

My only question I'd like to know is if the dev(s) of Hotline Miami have come out and said why they didn't hold off release of the game. Yeah, sure they're patching it, but its a huge problem with the indie genre. Just a lack of polish on a lot of releases. $10 is still $10 and its often become $15.

I'm enjoying HLM so far, only one crash in the few hours I've played it and no framerate issues I can tell.

@NapTimeSleeper: That is what I am asking basically. Why is it that some games get a pass and some dont. Are we really supposed to believe that every reviewer and games journalist that has played and praised HLM never ran into a single issue? GB has praised the game and also mentioned all the issues. Can the honestly give the game 5/5 after knowingly admitting the issues its had with them? The same with Xcom. I feel Papo & Yo didn't get that pass because the overall design of the game was seen as weak and didn't have the hype these other games had.

@MrOldboy said:

@TruthTellah: This way of thinking just confuses me even more. Why should the player be responsible to calculating what the actual hit % is based on the game's dodgy math and/or presentation of that math? "Firaxis like" percentages means WRONG percentages. A percentage is simple math, how the fuck can it be taken any other way. 50% should mean that an event will occur 1/2 the time (if the sample size is large enough). That is the same in every country, every language, every time period, every everything. Its math. And yes people have reported missing 100% shots, that is unacceptable in a modern video game with the time and budget Firaxis had and the amount they are charging for said game.

I dont care how much you or I love Firaxis and their games, presenting the percentages in such a way, in a strategy game where sometimes you have to bank on one or a few shots because the game is designed to be hard that way, is just a poor design choice.

I own Xcom, I preordered it, hence why I am frustrated with the bugs and issues with that game.

My only question I'd like to know is if the dev(s) of Hotline Miami have come out and said why they didn't hold off release of the game. Yeah, sure they're patching it, but its a huge problem with the indie genre. Just a lack of polish on a lot of releases. $10 is still $10 and its often become $15.

I'm enjoying HLM so far, only one crash in the few hours I've played it and no framerate issues I can tell.

I suppose it's alright if we feel differently regarding the game. I understand why the percentage issue bothers you, but it's far from a dealbreaker for me. And it certainly isn't a bug. There might be an argument for it just being a legitimate game design flaw of the game, but that's for your final analysis of the game, not a major factor in actually playing it. Once you get it, it's fine. Maybe you're a big statistics guy and percentages are the be all end all, but to me, it's just a small part of the overall game. And the overall game, to me, is awesome. It's not perfect, but, as a strategy fan, it's something that I have extremely enjoyed. I hope you'll be able to enjoy it quite a bit, as well.

@MrOldboy: Sorry, this is slightly offtopic but the % in Xcom are truely wrong?? I finished the game on Classic/Ironman and I swear I missed to many 80%+ shots (I played ALOT of Battletech where you calculate % of hits constantly and the amount of hits in Xcom just felt wrong). There are super annoying in bugs in Xcom but none of them is game breaking for me.

About Hotline Miami: Bugs I had in 7 hours playtime: 2 error messages which i just pressed ignore. Once nothing happened and I could play on, once the floor tiles stopped displaying but I could finish the level and after it, it reverted back to normal. And finally I had one crash that almost crashed my whole system (It didn't but it stopped reacting for a minute). I mean it is still buggy, but it's playable and its a 10$ 2 man game so I can understand lack of general polish in anywhat respect.

@Hailinel said:

@ViciousReiven

@Hailinel said:

@ViciousReiven said:

IMO All games that have problems that are fixable should be given a pass knowing that it will eventually work out, it's the ones that have fundamental problems that should be faulted.

Just because problems are theoretically fixable doesn't mean that they'll be fixed, or that they should be excused for having such issues. PS3 Skyrim players know this too well.

If a problem is fixable and nothing is done about it then you can throw all the blame you want, but when a developer acknowledges problems and do their damndest to fix them I see no reason why it should change someone's opinion on the good game.

Good intentions or no, a broken game is still broken.

Exactly, a developer can promise fixes, they can even push patches out ASAP. But people still paid money for a product, a product that has errors that were not intended. There are numerous examples of games that just go on living without any developer fixes, even though its was assumed that they would be fixed. Its just part of modern video games. Its easier to hit release dates when you can fix the issue in a month and then nobody will ever notice.

@ectoplasma: A few people have mentioned the $10 small team reason as to why its acceptable to have a lack of polish.

But when will this stop being an excuse we can use to justify these smaller games. They are still asking money and $10 is not free, its still money.

When we look at other games that have similar dev teams and similar price points is it not acceptable to start demanding higher levels of basic functionality and technical polish. We cant demand for the game to be better, that's up to the developer to design the game, but I dont thinks its wrong to demand the product (which costs money even if it is $10-15) function as intended?

@MrOldboy: As a life-long fan of companies like Obsidian, Bioware and Bethesda, bugs are worth less than 2% of my take-away from the game. If a review mentions that there are hella bugs, I'll actually bump up the score in my head because I'll assume it was docked down for them.

Perhaps I care less about my play experience and more about their development ambitions. I'd rather play a buggy mess that goes well out of it's way to impress the world than really polished boring shit. X-COM has bugs, but whatever. Skyrim has bugs, but whatever. New Vegas has bugs, but whatever. These things will either be patched by the company or by the community and most of them are inconsequential occurrences (unless they erase/corrupt game data... that is mostly unforgivable).

when i walk down stairs from my apartment to the car it looks different during certain missions is that a bug? like there is no grass or sidewalk or whatever idk.

@MrOldboy said:

So how is it that games like Xcom and Hotline Miami seem to get a pass in terms of overall technical polish?

...because they are so viscerally goddamn excellent in terms of gameplay that I can overlook the lack of technical polish until it affects me...and those technical bugs just make me want to get the game working again as fast as possible so I can play more of it.

Also, 1.1 version of Hotline Miami is out on GOG already. Haven't had any issues with it since then. Beat the game last night and played about three more hours of it afterwards. That game is far too much fucking fun than it has any goddamn right to be.

@Hailinel said:

@ViciousReiven said:

IMO All games that have problems that are fixable should be given a pass knowing that it will eventually work out, it's the ones that have fundamental problems that should be faulted.

Just because problems are theoretically fixable doesn't mean that they'll be fixed...

This. I still have nightmares about the Redcliffe glitch in Dragon Age: Origins on 360. = (

Gaming critics/journos love to slob all over indie games. I guess they think it gives them "cred" or something.

@kishinfoulux said:

Gaming critics/journos love to slob all over indie games. I guess they think it gives them "cred" or something.

No. This game is just seriously excellent in terms of quality, music, storytelling, etc.

wait...X-Com had bugs and shit?.....I never experienced that

@MrOldboy: I get your point. I just think the product as a complete package (with bugs) is already worth 10$. The bugs are minor so that they don't significantly impact my enjoyment of the game. But that's for everyone himself to judge. I'm much more concerned about sketchy marketing tricks publishes use to make money by DLC, online codes and similar things.

@MrOldboy: I thought you might find this explanation of XCOM's percentages interesting: http://sinepost.wordpress.com/2012/10/26/probability-in-games-xcom/ It shows rather thoroughly that it's based around real randomness, and each shot is its own individual roll. It also shows how well thought out a lot of the percentages are and the powers which impact those percentages.

Here is another great writeup on how the randomness in XCOM works: http://sinepost.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/randomness-vs-canniness/

Hope you find them as interesting as I do! :)

@MrOldboy said:

@TruthTellah: The issue is that when the hit % says XXX it should mean XXX. I made a post about something similar in the Xcom forum and was then told there about the game lying about the percentages. Its a strategy game, not surfacing something is one thing. As in the shot says 50-70% and doesn't say why it cant be exact because you haven't unlocked something or the alien has something you dont know about yet (not that any of this is in the game, just an example). Its another thing when the game clearly says 70%, it even shows you the "math" its using if you click the left stick. Then the hit doesn't hit 70% of the time. That's either a bug of a poor design choice. From what I've been able to read a lot of people have noticed this and I cant find anything that suggests Firaxis fudged the numbers to increase the drama of a mission or is it just a calculation error in their code. I've heard that they fudged numbers in Civ 5 and Dave Lang mentioned this during the TNT. I was hoping someone would jump in and mention some people were saying the percentages were off or something.

Xcom % are not bugged or misleading. There is a very clear reason why when you reload and try to do the same shot over and over again it will always happen the same way (to prevent people save scumming). This has been explained (in great detail) in several of the threads on the GB Xcom forum, if you want to look it up, here is a link for convinience http://www.giantbomb.com/xcom-enemy-unknown/61-37152/rockets-on-classic-mode-constantly-off-target/35-564348/. Hell Vinny even mentioned it briefly on the podcast. Percentages are also rounded to the nearest 1% so that 100% may be 99.6%

As far as actual bugs go. A lot of people hold bugs as insignificant to the actual gameplay experience. Another segment have not experienced any significant bugs.

Personally I'm on a 3rd playthrough now and have not had any significant bug occur that would detract from my experience of the game.

For me it says a lot about a game when I still consider it be one of my games of the year despite it being bug ridden and looking liked crap.

I take back the look like crap having played it but that was my initial thought after seeing all the coverage Eurogamer lavished on it after their expo. I later came round on it after watching the Thursday Night Throwdown where this was featuring along with Forza Horizon. It was however the music that pulled me in (so much so I've now added them to my Need for Speed Most Wanted soundtrack) and then I slowly started to love the graphics.

I loved the feel of the game instantly, reminded me of Manhunt thrust into a situation you don't wanna be in and in the shoes of a character of questionable ethics. One who is being manipulated.

I'm still not quite sure where I sit on the ending and by that I mean both the post credit biker stages and the actual secret ending. I loved the change of tactics (limited throwing objects no option of a gun, stuck with this cleaver) the biker brought about something about where the plot goes doesn't sit all that well with me. Also by killing the main protagonist what does this even mean?

Finally my game had bugs and glitches throughout I couldn't get past Chapter 4 after clearing a room and going up some stairs I just got stuck between the stairs and the wall happened everytime I did the level. Also the part where your in hospital it just kept fading to black and flickering rather than going on to the next level. So I had to edit the save.dat twice over to skip levels which is a real shame, hopefully patches at some point sort this out.

@scarace360: I know its been over two weeks but did you manage to find a fix for that issue?

The game was running fne for me, no complaints at all and now all of a sudden its dead slow constantly and theres nothing I've been able to do to fix it. Pretty annoying, I really liked the game from what I played

@deadeyes said:

@scarace360: I know its been over two weeks but did you manage to find a fix for that issue?

The game was running fne for me, no complaints at all and now all of a sudden its dead slow constantly and theres nothing I've been able to do to fix it. Pretty annoying, I really liked the game from what I played

Ya restarted my pc and it fixed it.

I have two very different situations happening with both games. On the Xcom side, I can't say I have ever gotten any glitches or bugs, or at least none that were noticeable. But on the Hotline Miami side, I have gotten a glitch that has completely hindered any progress beyond level 4. And from the sounds of it will not be fixed. I don't really count that against HM though, since it does appear to be a rare occurrence.