Enhanced Interrogation - Does It Work and Is It Worth It?

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#1 Edited by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

Nation,

We killed Osama Bin Laden, we did it.  I'll be the first to admit it, we did it.  We also did it using "enhanced interrogation", and over the many years...it worked.  All of it was built up for this one focal moment.

Snapping fingers off, water-boarding, cutting fingertips off, abusing loved ones in front of the terrorists, etc...it worked at the end of the day.  So for all those who say it would never work and it was just torture...what say you now?

Did the ten years of post-911 enhanced interrogation have proven to work at the end of the day...or didn't they?

#2 Posted by JJWeatherman (14564 posts) -
I say we would have gotten him either way, but that's just me.
#3 Posted by Gabriel (4076 posts) -

If you push R2 while doing Kano's choke move he'll do an enhanced choke, I think it works better than the regular one. 

#4 Posted by BonOrbitz (2243 posts) -

How do we know exactly what tactics were used, how often they were used, who they were used upon, and how successful they were in tracking down OBL?

#5 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -
@bonorbitz: Aren't you watching the news?  They said the Bush version was used and it's what worked...Obama kept up the same system.
#6 Posted by PrivateIronTFU (3874 posts) -

I'm not sure the 'advanced interrogation' had a whole lot to do with it. The story I read in the paper said that they got more information out of people from standard interrogation than they ever did water-boarding guys.

#7 Posted by Zimbo (875 posts) -

Obama is a fan of renegade Sam Fisher. I approve.

#8 Edited by imsh_pl (3298 posts) -

I'd strongly suggest watching the movie "Unthinkable" which covers exactly the issue you mentioned: how far should we go to protect others (in this case American citiziens). It also criticizes the hypocrisy of the Americans regarding the issue of personal rights vs national security.

#9 Posted by ajamafalous (12129 posts) -

Seeing "OBL" as an abbreviation for Osama Bin Laden is weird to me because I've never been somewhere where he was discussed often enough to warrant an acronym.

#10 Posted by TehFlan (1944 posts) -

Maybe it works, but other methods have been proven to work better. Also, even if those methods did work better, it wouldn't be worth it.

#11 Posted by BonOrbitz (2243 posts) -
@ajamafalous said:
" Seeing "OBL" as an abbreviation for Osama Bin Laden is weird to me because I've never been somewhere where he was discussed often enough to warrant an acronym. "
I think I came across it on CNN.com today. My brain did a double-take when it first read that.
#12 Posted by Slaker117 (4843 posts) -
@bonorbitz said:
" How do we know exactly what tactics were used, how often they were used, who they were used upon, and how successful they were in tracking down OBL? "
We don't. Kaos is just being obtuse and sensationalistic because that's what he does. Cause he's an ass.
#13 Posted by BonOrbitz (2243 posts) -
@Slaker117 said:
" @bonorbitz said:
" How do we know exactly what tactics were used, how often they were used, who they were used upon, and how successful they were in tracking down OBL? "
We don't. Kaos is just being obtuse and sensationalistic because that's what he does. Cause he's an ass. "
I saw the George Bush avatar as I was reading the initial post and was trying to figure out what angle this was coming from...
#14 Posted by Yanngc33 (4496 posts) -

I'm no fan of torture but man I wish OBL had gotten a taste of that "enhanced interrogation" before bitting it

#15 Posted by Elazul (1327 posts) -
@bonorbitz said:
" @Slaker117 said:
" @bonorbitz said:
" How do we know exactly what tactics were used, how often they were used, who they were used upon, and how successful they were in tracking down OBL? "
We don't. Kaos is just being obtuse and sensationalistic because that's what he does. Cause he's an ass. "
I saw the George Bush avatar as I was reading the initial post and was trying to figure out what angle this was coming from... "
Funny, I saw the Bush avatar and threw up in my mouth.
#16 Posted by tunaburn (1891 posts) -

depends on who its being used on. terrorists im all for it. the guy that robbed 7-11 with a shovel and didnt hurt anybody? no
#17 Posted by melcene (3056 posts) -
@KaosAngel: 

Apparently Joy Behar thinks that we should be paying terrorists to write books rather than waterboarding....
(sorry I can't find any other link for the video)

  
#18 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -
@melcene: What do you think though?

Is it worth hurting a handful to save millions?
#19 Posted by FlyingRat (1446 posts) -

What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you actually trying to say it's okay to do things like abuse loved ones in front of terrorists?

#20 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -
@FlyingRat: I never said that, I'm asking what people think about these techniques after knowing they apparently worked in catching OBL.
#21 Posted by FlyingRat (1446 posts) -
@KaosAngel:  People who have a problem with torture generally don't have a problem with it cause they think it doesn't work, they have a problem with it is cause it's fucking cruel and inhumane.
#22 Posted by BraveToaster (12588 posts) -

When time is of the essence and lives depend on it, I'd say torture is the best way to get information from non-compliant individuals.

#23 Posted by jozzy (2042 posts) -

I find the whole "let's celebrate and wave our american flags because we totally murdered a bad guy" very morbid. So let's not even get started on torture.

#24 Posted by melcene (3056 posts) -

I agree with what someone said earlier.  If we're talking war situations, terrorism, yes, it's worth it.  If we're talking standard criminal issues, definitely not.

#25 Posted by Aishan (1022 posts) -
@melcene said:
" I agree with what someone said earlier.  If we're talking war situations, terrorism, yes, it's worth it.  If we're talking standard criminal issues, definitely not. "
What makes it more acceptable in war? Why is it acceptable ever?

@KaosAngel said:
" @FlyingRat: I never said that, I'm asking what people think about these techniques after knowing they apparently worked in catching OBL. "
This is a complete logical fallacy.

Event A happens
Event B happens after Event A
Therefore A caused B.

This is not proof of success of torture.
#26 Posted by AlexW00d (6389 posts) -

Hey if Jack Bauer does it I'm all for it.

#27 Posted by benjaebe (2783 posts) -

I'm fairly certain that the big news is that enhanced interrogation like waterboarding DIDN'T have any impact on catching Osama Bin Laden. I mean, when Donald Rumsfield says it wasn't a factor, I'd be likely to believe him.

#28 Edited by melcene (3056 posts) -
@Aishan: Well first, it's more acceptable because thousands or millions of lives at stake.  While it's nice to be all idealistic, truth of the matter is that the lives of a few are not worth as much as the lives of millions.  Don't believe me?  Ask yourself this:  If you had to sacrifice yourself and your immediately family to save an entire nation of people, would you do it?  People who want to be smartasses, or who want to stand up for some idealistic principle that ultimately means nothing will say no.  Why do I say that idealistic principle ultimately means nothing?  Because if such a situation arose, the bad guys who put you in that situation wouldn't give a damn about your ideals and change their minds because they're just in awe of them.  They'd end up killing the entire nation AND you and your family if it furthered their goals.

In war, especially the way it's fought today, with acts of terrorism and the like, we don't always have the luxury of easily being able to obtain the information we need.  Sometimes we don't know who's in charge, or what's happening next.  And people aren't going to want to tell us just because we've captured them.  So are we supposed to sit back and just let these things occur if there's a chance we can stop it?  Is there a better way out there?


As for torture when it comes to the OBL situation... I can't say with any certainty whether it helped with finding him or not.  I haven't heard/read the news on that yet and haven't formed any opinions on that.  My opinions on torture have absolutely nothing to do with the OBL situation.  I simply consider myself a realist.  And it's unrealistic to be idealistic and think we can all fucking sing kumbaya and maybe the bad guys won't hurt innocent people.  I do not believe in Utopia, sorry.
#29 Posted by Azteck (7449 posts) -

Are you insane? You actually condone torture?

#30 Posted by Afroman269 (7387 posts) -

I like how OBL is totally an acronym now. 

#31 Edited by ProfessorEss (7472 posts) -

Wait a second, I thought it was the all the bombs dropped on Iraq that caught Osama?

#32 Posted by SoylentGreen (258 posts) -

This whole situation is really bringing out the worst in people. Osama Bin Laden is dead and gone forever. Let's stop trying to throw ethics out the window in the name of safety and freedom, okay?

#33 Posted by BonOrbitz (2243 posts) -
@FlyingRat said:
" What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you actually trying to say it's okay to do things like abuse loved ones in front of terrorists? "
THANK YOU.
#34 Edited by DeShawn2ks (1056 posts) -

I was just watching the news and they said enhanced interrogation had nothing to do with it. Even Donald Rumsfield said it didn't have a part in. If that guy says something like that considering the circumstances I feel I have to believe it. But who knows it seems a bunch of outlets are saying different stuff.

#35 Posted by Aishan (1022 posts) -
@melcene: What's the ratio to where it becomes acceptable? Can I kill one person to save 100,000? 100? 10? At what point does it stop becoming acceptable to trade one life for others?

You say it's ok to do so because it leads to information that might be useful, however you don't take into consideration that the fact that it was obtained through torture makes it tainted. If you've being abused mentally or physically beaten for days at a time, you'll eventually tell your interrogators something, anything, just to make it stop. That does not make that information true.

#36 Posted by Commisar123 (1798 posts) -
@KaosAngel:    Lets call this what it is you are supporting torture plain and simple, now I don't know about you but I would say anything to get out of torture even if it was a flat out lie so who knows if any information we get from this shit is accurate.  Also how the hell do you know if torture lead to the capture or not?  Are you int he CIA?  Its been like two days since he was killed, how do you get your information?  Mabye he was found using a totally copoarative source.  Who knows.  
#37 Posted by PerryVandell (2109 posts) -

From what I read, the key information regarding Osama's whereabouts was obtained through normal interrogation. Personally, I think "enhanced" interrogation should be outlawed, whether or not it works. Otherwise, we are no better than the terrorists we are fighting.

#38 Posted by BonOrbitz (2243 posts) -
@DeShawn2ks said:
" I was just watching the news and they said enhanced interrogation had nothing to do with it. Even Donalds Rumsfield said it didn't have a part in. If that guy says something like that considering the circumstances I feel I have to believe it. But who knows it seems a bunch of outlets are saying different stuff. "
I'd say that Fox News had something to do with any bullshit regarding "enhanced interrogation" having something to do with it... The news sources I've been following haven't said anything to close to that.
#39 Posted by melcene (3056 posts) -
@Aishan: A valid point, and one I did consider as I was writing my post.  But I'm not familiar with all the forms of "torture" or "advanced interrogation" or whatever used, so I can't say that they're all those types that will make people say anything, or even, true, that they'd be useful.  I also can't give you a number as to how many lives are worth how many lives.  This is why I'm not in office.  I'm not looking to make those decisions.  But it does bother me that people seem to feel that we've become so enlightened that things that have been standards of war for centuries are no longer acceptable.  Then again, hey, maybe we should just let Bad Stuff (TM) happen.  We're overpopulating this damn planet anyway.  I'm not going to pretend I have all the answers.  This was a thread for opinions, and that's how I feel.
#40 Posted by BonOrbitz (2243 posts) -
@Aishan said:
" @melcene: You say it's ok to do so because it leads to information that might be useful, however you don't take into consideration that the fact that it was obtained through torture makes it tainted. If you've being abused mentally or physically beaten for days at a time, you'll eventually tell your interrogators something, anything, just to make it stop. That does not make that information true."

I dunno... If the Salem Witch Trials taught me anything, it's that witches are more common than we think. ;)
#41 Posted by Mr_Skeleton (5152 posts) -

It's only worth when you know that the knowledge can prevent an immediate threat.

#42 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -
@Azteck said:
" Are you insane? You actually condone torture? "
I never said that.  I'm just asking if it was worth it at the end.
#43 Posted by haggis (1677 posts) -

There is a difference between waterboarding (which was only done to three people) and enhanced interrogation, which used stress positions, etc. And it does look like some information that came from Khalid Sheik Mohammed (one of the three who was waterboarded) did aid in finding OBL. But we still don't know for sure (and probably won't for a very long time). I don't see a problem with enhanced interrogation, and from what I've heard from people who know at the Pentagon, their techniques work surprisingly well. They say the same for waterboarding, although the same guys always told me that anything worse than waterboarding would probably cease producing any decent intelligence. KSM gave quite a bit of decent intel. But even those in charge of interrogation knew they couldn't use that on just anyone.

So, does enhanced interrogation work? It seems to. Is it worth it? Probably only in situations where we know that the subject knows things we need to know. Did it have much to do with capturing OBL? Reports seem to indicate that it did have at least a minor role, but all the details will likely stay classified for a very long time. Is it good that OBL is dead? Undoubtedly. Will it make a huge difference now, ten years after 9/11? I doubt it.

#44 Posted by NTM (7519 posts) -

The guy on my icon killed Osama Bin Fawdin.
#45 Posted by Pibo47 (3166 posts) -
@KaosAngel: I honestly dont think that torture is ok under any circumstances, and this one is included. If we did in fact use those techniques. It was wrong, and not worth it. Sacrificing who we are and what we stand for, even with the best intentions, never ends well. I think hurting captives is NEVER an option. And NEVER should be. Even if other lives are at risk, because whats the point of saving a life if we become worse than the monsters we are fighting. Maybe there are some circumstances were torture is ok. But i honestly cannot think of one.
#46 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -
@Pibo47: Let's say this, a guy we kidnap knows about a nuke going off in NYC, and it goes off in a matter of hours.  He's not talking...are those millions of people in NYC fucked?  He wins?
#47 Posted by DeShawn2ks (1056 posts) -
@NTM said:
" The guy on my icon killed Osama Bin Fawdin. "
The image of ! this popping up above Osama's head  followed by that messed up sound when  those seals busted into that room brought a smile to my face.
#48 Posted by Aishan (1022 posts) -
@KaosAngel said:
" @Pibo47: Let's say this, a guy we kidnap knows about a nuke going off in NYC, and it goes off in a matter of hours.  He's not talking...are those millions of people in NYC fucked?  He wins? "
How do you know he knows?
#49 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -
@Aishan said:
" @KaosAngel said:
" @Pibo47: Let's say this, a guy we kidnap knows about a nuke going off in NYC, and it goes off in a matter of hours.  He's not talking...are those millions of people in NYC fucked?  He wins? "
How do you know he knows? "
The CIA and NSA caught him through his emails and cellphone conversations.  They know it's going to happen but not the details.
#50 Posted by Aishan (1022 posts) -
@KaosAngel said:
" @Aishan said:
" @KaosAngel said:
" @Pibo47: Let's say this, a guy we kidnap knows about a nuke going off in NYC, and it goes off in a matter of hours.  He's not talking...are those millions of people in NYC fucked?  He wins? "
How do you know he knows? "
The CIA and NSA caught him through his emails and cellphone conversations.  They know it's going to happen but not the details. "
How do you know you have the right guy?

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