Where I become a conservative. Katawa Shouja (Localized title?)

  • 68 results
  • 1
  • 2
#1 Edited by Do_The_Manta_Ray (705 posts) -

Let's be clear here, these are my personal thoughts on the game and the public who enjoys it. I'll state clearly that I have not played the game, nor have any intention to. This is by no means an attempt to insult or villainize the "game's" growing fan-base; merely my thoughts on it. Don't like it? Well, poo on you!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  • Merely skip to the end if you want the short version. This'll take a while.

It starts with a thread. "Don't Knock It Until You've Tried it", started by MattyFTM. Think publishing rights, think great smile on the front of your People's magazine equivalent, teeth like pearl and eyes like shallow graves. You know the look. This is someone who's made it.

I suppose that in a way, he did; with this single post, that has by now amounted to a good 16 pages worth of people being guided into the arms of 4-chan's long-running project, and finding themselves enjoying it. (Did that sound wrong to you, as well? Bet you can't place the reason other than an inherit reaction to "4-Chan".) But before this gets out of hand, let's step back and establish what this is and what we're talking about. We're talking about Katawa Shoujo, a visual novel-type free "game" that apparently has torn at many heart-strings, weaving a net of intrigue in regards to the social acceptance of disability, as well as how the people (or flat saucer-eyed sex-dolls, it's really pretty subjective) "suffering" under the misfortune of having a disability deal with said issues on an emotional, psychological and social level. In a term, it's a dating game exclusively centered around amputees, etcetera.

Now, who am I, why am I writing this, where's the beef, why am I shovelling cultural snow by making a pile of no-sense nonsense like this? I'll keep it brief. I'm a gamer, and an avid bomber; I enjoy violence in games. I enjoy sex in games. Both can add to the experience if done right. I'm a bit of a lovecraftian and enjoy the strange; and let's be honest, that translates into the bedroom. That said, I live by a certain system, let's call it a codex.. And much like hand-made hoover-attachments, my system is beginning to wear out it's usefulness as new and improved and easy becomes all the more attractive. There's been very few games over the years that I've found repulsive due to their content. Hell, I've enjoyed that to a measure. Killer 7 remains one of my favourite games, and it's pretty hard to top in terms of visual and implied disgusting extavaganza.

So, here's a game about dating disabled girls, and at first, as so many others, I was sceptical. A game about disabled girls.. About understanding these disabled girls.. About the disabled girls' view on life and their own tale and fears.. About dating disables girls.. About awkwardly undressing disabled girls.. About fucking disabled girls. HOLD ON! WHAT?! Hit the breaks; let's inspect the nature of this.

At the very core of an experience, an interactive one, we have a role we'd like to live out to a point; we play action games because we want to relieve stress and simply have fun. We play strategical titles because we enjoy how it makes us think according to a different rule-set. We enjoy RPGs because we like to explore, and shape our own future in a way we never could in the non-digitalized advanced capitalist society we live in. (Why? No fucking goblins is why; and a whole other mountain of concepts, but you know the drill.) We play porn-games because.. Well, mainly because we want to get off. And I am no doubt simplifying here, but that's what we're doing here; we're trying to boil it down to it's basics. "We", you exclaim in shock; "no, your misguided concepts are far from mine own"; if you're thinking along these lines, see the top. This game, at it's core, is a romantically-charged drama that has you follow different routes in order to land with one, or possibly more, amputees.

An awkward concept.

After having read through the thread mentioed at the start of this thread, a real russian-doll situation, (to which there's a link at the top of this beautifully constructed topic, just look at it shine; you'd never know it'd get me killed by a horde of gamers with probably a full set of limbs), I find that for the first time in gaming history, I'm just appalled. I'm not bored, I'm not sighing in exhasperation. I feel nausea at the back of my throat; perhaps less at the concept of a game that includes sex-scene with a girl with no legs, but at the idea of that so many people have come to find this not appalling, but appealing. I don't particulary mind people without legs having sex, good for them; sex is good for the soul and the psyche, not to mention the body, but that's not the point. We're not seeing past people's exterior flaws in order to find the beauty that's been hidden beneath layers of pain and self-awareness, coming to engage with them in romantic communion because we've come to truly feel for them.

No, we're going into the experience, fully expecting to do so; under the premise of "disabled girls, go!" (Think Social Link Go!, a cheerful jingle, perhaps some children's laughter in the background as ambience) We're putting ourselves into a certain mind-frame before stepping into this "strange new world". The protagonist himself is disabled, and only then is he able to engage with this strange, new race. Females? Disabled people? That's the thing that bugs me. It's a concept. It's a novelty.

The strongest, and most repeated, arguement I've heard for this title is that the disabilites don't define the characters. So, what I'm being told is that people were shocked to see that women without legs actually had a personality that went beyond their own self-pity? OH, MY LORD! And there's my problem; there's the sickening aspect of this entire scenario. Not that people found something to like in what I've heard to be a well-written "game", but the mind-set in which people approached it. I reckon some good 80 % will say; "I only wanted to try it out because I wanted to know I was right in looking down on it." Let me be clear on this; this is what we, in the business, refer to as an "excuse", something we tell others, as well as ourselves. There's been great, GREAT interest in the game due to it's controversy, not due to it's well-written story, fine art. Not due to the prospect of fucking girls, but fucking girls specifically with disabilities; and there's the difference.

So, maybe I've grown old; maybe I'm just getting tired of shovelling cultural or sensual snow, maybe I've finally found a moral perch from which I can look down on you sorry cretins living out your miserable excuses for a life (MANIACAL LAUGHTER! MANIACAL LAUGHTER!) - But hey, you know what? That's the thing about opinions, they tend to change depending on your perspective.

-----------------------------------------------------------

  • If you're in for the short version; here's where I finish my death-warrant.

-To synopsize and lastly fully explain, I dislike the notion of this game due to the fact that it centers on disabled people as a novelty. It has clearly won many over due to it's fine writing, and as such; I won't peg the title for what it is. Had any of these story-lines been included in another visual novel that presented one disabled girl as an equal among others more fortunate, I'd have applauded it for the chance it took; here's one burned girl that can stand among a school-idol, a timid heavily-busted beauty and hold her own due to her personality and her courage. Not that I particulary enjoy visual novels, but hey; people deserve to be treated as equals. What I dislike is what we've made out of it, and the fact that people go into this game with the mind-set that they're not dealing with people able to feel, everyday people; but that they're visiting a zoo.

Is that how you'd like to be seen if you were in this situation? Think about it; it'd certainly how you'd feel if someone described you the way you've been describing the characters in the "game".

Enjoy the game, duders; I won't hold it against you. No, this is merely my opinion, and I'm certain there's you out there who had pure, yet horny motives for playing the game; you're alright in my book. And at the end of the day, I can say "Hey, I've got something to hang on the wall; I drew the line for what I'll accept in gaming." And ain't that a novelty?

I hope you all enjoyed this "little" post.

This is Do_The_Manta_Ray being cool at your school, retreating to my bed and maybe a round of DOTA in the morning.

@Video_Game_King: By your immediete agression about three minutes after I posted this wall of a massage; I assume you read the entire post, rather than just see one thing you didn't like and go straight for the throat. The "Localized Title" is a joke as it's an english game with a japanese title, and finally. I'M SORRY! I'M SO SORRY I SPELLED IT WRONG! OH, GOD! WHATEVER SHALL BECOME OF MY SENSE OF DIGNITY AND PRIDE? Calm down, duder.

#2 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@Do_The_Manta_Ray said:

To synopsize and lastly fully explain, I dislike the notion of this game due to the fact that it centers on disabled people as a novelty.

No, it fucking doesn't. Oh, and two things on the title:

  • It can't have been localized, as it was originally written in English. (I think. I could be wrong on that.)
  • It's Shoujo, not Shouja. Just because the Japanese in the title isn't perfect doesn't mean your Japanese has to be even less perfect.
#3 Posted by Dagbiker (6978 posts) -

You realize you can turn the "adult" stuff off right. I haven't played the game my self, but not every one that plays it is a horny teenager wanting to get off on a disabled person. I downloaded it to see what the fuss was about, and im planing on turning off the porny stuff.

#4 Posted by Animasta (14715 posts) -

I don't think you should focus on the disabled thing. Focus on the inheritant creepy, disturbing premise OF the dating sim, if you want. I had an argument with a friend that dating sims are a fucking terrible and misogynistic concept, actually. but the disabled thing... really doesn't matter. Like yeah, fetishizing this is a little creepy, but it really doesn't go down there, and the sex would be creepy even if they weren't disabled.

#5 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@Dagbiker said:

im planing on turning off the porny stuff.

You probably shouldn't. It replaces the porny stuff with pictures of squid and cabbage, which can go a long way to taking you out of the experience.

#6 Posted by Animasta (14715 posts) -

also this game is not well written

#7 Posted by Do_The_Manta_Ray (705 posts) -

@Dagbiker: I definitely agree with you, duder; and I'm not so much claiming that's the case. To suddenly find out that the entire world has a thing for people lacking a limb would set some rather questionable new beauty-standards. My issue is with how these characters are seen, and approached by the public; and less how the game has been constructed itself, though I certainly got my fair amount of issues with that, as well. It's mainly been the sheer shock at the depth of the characters that has left a bad taste in my mind, and the seemingly ever-present arguement of that "they're just ordinary people". Why wouldn't they be..?

#8 Posted by ImmortalSaiyan (4690 posts) -

The game does treat it's characters as equals with everyone else.

#9 Posted by HaltIamReptar (2029 posts) -

@Do_The_Manta_Ray said:

@Dagbiker: I definitely agree with you, duder; and I'm not so much claiming that's the case. To suddenly find out that the entire world has a thing for people lacking a limb would set some rather questionable new beauty-standards. My issue is with how these characters are seen, and approached by the public; and less how the game has been constructed itself, though I certainly got my fair amount of issues with that, as well. It's mainly been the sheer shock at the depth of the characters that has left a bad taste in my mind, and the seemingly ever-present arguement of that "they're just ordinary people". Why wouldn't they be..?

I agree with you on all fronts, man. Everything about this is creepy and at times a little bit pretentious. However, I think the shock at the alleged depth of characters is that most people go in expecting the game to be all-the-way poorly written.

#10 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@ImmortalSaiyan said:

The game does treat it's characters as equals with everyone else.

Exactly. It's not a game about dating disabled girls; it's a game about dating girls who happen to be disabled. Yes, their disabilities can play some significant role in their personalities, but they hardly define them.

#11 Posted by spazmaster666 (1972 posts) -

@Animasta said:

I don't think you should focus on the disabled thing. Focus on the inheritant creepy, disturbing premise OF the dating sim, if you want. I had an argument with a friend that dating sims are a fucking terrible and misogynistic concept, actually. but the disabled thing... really doesn't matter. Like yeah, fetishizing this is a little creepy, but it really doesn't go down there, and the sex would be creepy even if they weren't disabled.

Why exactly is it creepy/disturbing? Also not all dating sims are eroge. There are plenty of galge out there that don't involve sex at all. And I won't even get into otome games. As for Katawa Shoujo, just because it's a game about disabled girls, doesn't mean it's the focus of the game. It's just a way of differentiating it from other eroge out there.

#12 Posted by ShaggE (6574 posts) -

These fetish sims have been around for ages, just rarely seen outside of the fetish communities themselves. This is downright tame, to be honest. I'd love to see people's reactions to some of the guro and vore games that are out there...

Personally, I'm glad fetish games exist. People can't choose their fetishes, and some of the crazier or more harmful ones are less likely to be acted out on if there's a fictional outlet.

#13 Posted by SpunkyHePanda (1702 posts) -

@Do_The_Manta_Ray said:

It's mainly been the sheer shock at the depth of the characters that has left a bad taste in my mind, and the seemingly ever-present arguement of that "they're just ordinary people". Why wouldn't they be..?

Well, because they're not real people, and it's a porn game. I'm sure many people see this game as just a weird fetish piece, so they figure why would the writers bother portraying the characters realistically?

#14 Posted by Turambar (6814 posts) -
@spazmaster666 said:

@Animasta said:

I don't think you should focus on the disabled thing. Focus on the inheritant creepy, disturbing premise OF the dating sim, if you want. I had an argument with a friend that dating sims are a fucking terrible and misogynistic concept, actually. but the disabled thing... really doesn't matter. Like yeah, fetishizing this is a little creepy, but it really doesn't go down there, and the sex would be creepy even if they weren't disabled.

Why exactly is it creepy/disturbing? Also not all dating sims are eroge. There are plenty of galge out there that don't involve sex at all. And I won't even get into otome games. As for Katawa Shoujo, just because it's a game about disabled girls, doesn't mean it's the focus of the game. It's just a way of differentiating it from other eroge out there.

Most Visual Novels of this type aren't dating sims.  Dating sims involve stat grinding in order to unlock characters and scenarios, kind of like what P4 does.  This is a digitized choose your own adventure book.
#15 Posted by stubbleman (306 posts) -

The whole reason people are shocked at the depth of the characters is because they expected it to be a shitty, fetishizing piece of pornography that concerned it's self with gratification first and writing second. You know, like most porn. It's not because they're bad people. It's because they expected the worst from it and were happily surprised, not because they think disabled people are stupid or something. Also, you really need to think about editing your writing because, damn. You had like three points and about twenty pointless digressions.

#16 Posted by PeasantAbuse (5138 posts) -

I'm not a big fan of hentai.

#17 Posted by Animasta (14715 posts) -

@spazmaster666 said:

@Animasta said:

I don't think you should focus on the disabled thing. Focus on the inheritant creepy, disturbing premise OF the dating sim, if you want. I had an argument with a friend that dating sims are a fucking terrible and misogynistic concept, actually. but the disabled thing... really doesn't matter. Like yeah, fetishizing this is a little creepy, but it really doesn't go down there, and the sex would be creepy even if they weren't disabled.

Why exactly is it creepy/disturbing? Also not all dating sims are eroge. There are plenty of galge out there that don't involve sex at all. And I won't even get into otome games. As for Katawa Shoujo, just because it's a game about disabled girls, doesn't mean it's the focus of the game. It's just a way of differentiating it from other eroge out there.

I don't even care about sex or not sex. I personally don't want to see it, if you want to that's your thing and I don't care. there is a difference between a dating sim and a visual novel. Dating sims, what is the goal? to date someone. That's in the name. The reason you want to date them, have sex with them, whatever, the reason is that's the goal of the game. It reduces people down to prizes to be won. Like, even if there's a route in a dating sim where you actually don't get a girl or guy and it ends satisfactorily then I am completely fine with that game! but think of it this way;

in Katawa, there are 6 ways you can progress past the first act; the 5 girls and the bad ending. The bad ending, while funny, clearly says "you fucked up, and you did not interest any of the girls. Next time, try better". It does not end satisfactorily, in other words. I think all of the girls have bad endings, and I do believe all these bad endings make the main character depressed and might even make the girl depressed. You get rewarded for making the right choices with continued interaction with the girls, with more scenes in some cases. Like, you can't end that game satisfactorily without dating a girl.

And yes I know there are games where you play as women and pick up men or whatever, but I really hate the word misandric so I didn't want to use it. But that's terrible too! Like, if your goal out of the game is to see some anime tits (not saying it was yours) then you have to get a good ending or at least get past act 1. Think about Persona 4: You can not date any of the girls and their stories still resolve. Sure, they might be a little bummed that they can't get any sweet Yu action, but you still get a scene on christmas eve, just with the bros. You do not miss anything by not romancing any of them, and while the circumstances and the goals of the game are certainly different, it's still viable.

#18 Posted by Turambar (6814 posts) -
@Do_The_Manta_Ray said:
What I dislike is what we've made out of it, and the fact that people go into this game with the mind-set that they're not dealing with people able to feel, everyday people; but that they're visiting a zoo.
We've written a lot about this VN on this site now, so I think I can say that we serve as a decent sample size for what the average person having read this VN is going to discuss.  Can you actually point to something someone says in those threads that supports your above assertion?
#19 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@Animasta:

Only, you know, the game doesn't reduce the girls to mere sex objects. In fact, it does such a good job of making them feel like realistic people with emotions and whatnot that I felt a bit uncomfortable in those sex scenes. Did I use the "it's like watching good friends fuck" analogy in my blog? Because I'll use it again here.

#20 Posted by WMWA (1162 posts) -
@Do_The_Manta_Ray

Let's be clear here, these are my personal thoughts on the game and the public who enjoys it. I'll state clearly that I have not played the game, nor have any intention to. This is by no means an attempt to insult or villainize the "game's" growing fan-base; merely my thoughts on it. Don't like it? Well, poo on you!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  • Merely skip to the end if you want the short version. This'll take a while.

It starts with a thread. "Don't Knock It Until You've Tried it", started by MattyFTM. Think publishing rights, think great smile on the front of your People's magazine equivalent, teeth like pearl and eyes like shallow graves. You know the look. This is someone who's made it.

I suppose that in a way, he did; with this single post, that has by now amounted to a good 16 pages worth of people being guided into the arms of 4-chan's long-running project, and finding themselves enjoying it. (Did that sound wrong to you, as well? Bet you can't place the reason other than an inherit reaction to "4-Chan".) But before this gets out of hand, let's step back and establish what this is and what we're talking about. We're talking about Katawa Shoujo, a visual novel-type free "game" that apparently has torn at many heart-strings, weaving a net of intrigue in regards to the social acceptance of disability, as well as how the people (or flat saucer-eyed sex-dolls, it's really pretty subjective) "suffering" under the misfortune of having a disability deal with said issues on an emotional, psychological and social level. In a term, it's a dating game exclusively centered around amputees, etcetera.

Now, who am I, why am I writing this, where's the beef, why am I shovelling cultural snow by making a pile of no-sense nonsense like this? I'll keep it brief. I'm a gamer, and an avid bomber; I enjoy violence in games. I enjoy sex in games. Both can add to the experience if done right. I'm a bit of a lovecraftian and enjoy the strange; and let's be honest, that translates into the bedroom. That said, I live by a certain system, let's call it a codex.. And much like hand-made hoover-attachments, my system is beginning to wear out it's usefulness as new and improved and easy becomes all the more attractive. There's been very few games over the years that I've found repulsive due to their content. Hell, I've enjoyed that to a measure. Killer 7 remains one of my favourite games, and it's pretty hard to top in terms of visual and implied disgusting extavaganza.

So, here's a game about dating disabled girls, and at first, as so many others, I was sceptical. A game about disabled girls.. About understanding these disabled girls.. About the disabled girls' view on life and their own tale and fears.. About dating disables girls.. About awkwardly undressing disabled girls.. About fucking disabled girls. HOLD ON! WHAT?! Hit the breaks; let's inspect the nature of this.

At the very core of an experience, an interactive one, we have a role we'd like to live out to a point; we play action games because we want to relieve stress and simply have fun. We play strategical titles because we enjoy how it makes us think according to a different rule-set. We enjoy RPGs because we like to explore, and shape our own future in a way we never could in the non-digitalized advanced capitalist society we live in. (Why? No fucking goblins is why; and a whole other mountain of concepts, but you know the drill.) We play porn-games because.. Well, mainly because we want to get off. And I am no doubt simplifying here, but that's what we're doing here; we're trying to boil it down to it's basics. "We", you exclaim in shock; "no, your misguided concepts are far from mine own"; if you're thinking along these lines, see the top. This game, at it's core, is a romantically-charged drama that has you follow different routes in order to land with one, or possibly more, amputees.

An awkward concept.

After having read through the thread mentioed at the start of this thread, a real russian-doll situation, (to which there's a link at the top of this beautifully constructed topic, just look at it shine; you'd never know it'd get me killed by a horde of gamers with probably a full set of limbs), I find that for the first time in gaming history, I'm just appalled. I'm not bored, I'm not sighing in exhasperation. I feel nausea at the back of my throat; perhaps less at the concept of a game that includes sex-scene with a girl with no legs, but at the idea of that so many people have come to find this not appalling, but appealing. I don't particulary mind people without legs having sex, good for them; sex is good for the soul and the psyche, not to mention the body, but that's not the point. We're not seeing past people's exterior flaws in order to find the beauty that's been hidden beneath layers of pain and self-awareness, coming to engage with them in romantic communion because we've come to truly feel for them.

No, we're going into the experience, fully expecting to do so; under the premise of "disabled girls, go!" (Think Social Link Go!, a cheerful jingle, perhaps some children's laughter in the background as ambience) We're putting ourselves into a certain mind-frame before stepping into this "strange new world". The protagonist himself is disabled, and only then is he able to engage with this strange, new race. Females? Disabled people? That's the thing that bugs me. It's a concept. It's a novelty.

The strongest, and most repeated, arguement I've heard for this title is that the disabilites don't define the characters. So, what I'm being told is that people were shocked to see that women without legs actually had a personality that went beyond their own self-pity? OH, MY LORD! And there's my problem; there's the sickening aspect of this entire scenario. Not that people found something to like in what I've heard to be a well-written "game", but the mind-set in which people approached it. I reckon some good 80 % will say; "I only wanted to try it out because I wanted to know I was right in looking down on it." Let me be clear on this; this is what we, in the business, refer to as an "excuse", something we tell others, as well as ourselves. There's been great, GREAT interest in the game due to it's controversy, not due to it's well-written story, fine art. Not due to the prospect of fucking girls, but fucking girls specifically with disabilities; and there's the difference.

So, maybe I've grown old; maybe I'm just getting tired of shovelling cultural or sensual snow, maybe I've finally found a moral perch from which I can look down on you sorry cretins living out your miserable excuses for a life (MANIACAL LAUGHTER! MANIACAL LAUGHTER!) - But hey, you know what? That's the thing about opinions, they tend to change depending on your perspective.

-----------------------------------------------------------

  • If you're in for the short version; here's where I finish my death-warrant.

-To synopsize and lastly fully explain, I dislike the notion of this game due to the fact that it centers on disabled people as a novelty. It has clearly won many over due to it's fine writing, and as such; I won't peg the title for what it is. Had any of these story-lines been included in another visual novel that presented one disabled girl as an equal among others more fortunate, I'd have applauded it for the chance it took; here's one burned girl that can stand among a school-idol, a timid heavily-busted beauty and hold her own due to her personality and her courage. Not that I particulary enjoy visual novels, but hey; people deserve to be treated as equals. What I dislike is what we've made out of it, and the fact that people go into this game with the mind-set that they're not dealing with people able to feel, everyday people; but that they're visiting a zoo.

Is that how you'd like to be seen if you were in this situation? Think about it; it'd certainly how you'd feel if someone described you the way you've been describing the characters in the "game".

Enjoy the game, duders; I won't hold it against you. No, this is merely my opinion, and I'm certain there's you out there who had pure, yet horny motives for playing the game; you're alright in my book. And at the end of the day, I can say "Hey, I've got something to hang on the wall; I drew the line for what I'll accept in gaming." And ain't that a novelty?

I hope you all enjoyed this "little" post.

This is Do_The_Manta_Ray being cool at your school, retreating to my bed and maybe a round of DOTA in the morning.

@Video_Game_King: By your immediete agression about three minutes after I posted this wall of a massage; I assume you read the entire post, rather than just see one thing you didn't like and go straight for the throat. The "Localized Title" is a joke as it's an english game with a japanese title, and finally. I'M SORRY! I'M SO SORRY I SPELLED IT WRONG! OH, GOD! WHATEVER SHALL BECOME OF MY SENSE OF DIGNITY AND PRIDE? Calm down, duder.

No interest whatsofuckingever in playing this game. I did enjoy reading this, though. Good writing.
#21 Posted by spazmaster666 (1972 posts) -

@Animasta said:

The reason you want to date them, have sex with them, whatever, the reason is that's the goal of the game. It reduces people down to prizes to be won. Like, even if there's a route in a dating sim where you actually don't get a girl or guy and it ends satisfactorily then I am completely fine with that game! but think of it this way;

in Katawa, there are 6 ways you can progress past the first act; the 5 girls and the bad ending. The bad ending, while funny, clearly says "you fucked up, and you did not interest any of the girls. Next time, try better". It does not end satisfactorily, in other words. I think all of the girls have bad endings, and I do believe all these bad endings make the main character depressed and might even make the girl depressed. You get rewarded for making the right choices with continued interaction with the girls, with more scenes in some cases. Like, you can't end that game satisfactorily without dating a girl.

I still don't see how that makes the game creepy or disturbing. Unrealistic sure, but who really expects a dating sim to be realistic? Or any game for that matter. Also almost all video games do a pretty good job of dehumanizing human beings.

#22 Posted by Turambar (6814 posts) -
@Animasta said:

In Katawa, there are 6 ways you can progress past the first act; the 5 girls and the bad ending. The bad ending, while funny, clearly says "you fucked up, and you did not interest any of the girls. Next time, try better". It does not end satisfactorily, in other words. I think all of the girls have bad endings, and I do believe all these bad endings make the main character depressed and might even make the girl depressed. You get rewarded for making the right choices with continued interaction with the girls, with more scenes in some cases. Like, you can't end that game satisfactorily without dating a girl.

And yes I know there are games where you play as women and pick up men or whatever, but I really hate the word misandric so I didn't want to use it. But that's terrible too! Like, if your goal out of the game is to see some anime tits (not saying it was yours) then you have to get a good ending or at least get past act 1. Think about Persona 4: You can not date any of the girls and their stories still resolve. Sure, they might be a little bummed that they can't get any sweet Yu action, but you still get a scene on christmas eve, just with the bros. You do not miss anything by not romancing any of them, and while the circumstances and the goals of the game are certainly different, it's still viable.

If the interaction with the characters is the main point of the VN, why would you not set your win/lose conditions around how you interact with them?  In first person shooters, you can't end the game satisfactorily without murdering a whole bunch of dudes.  In Persona 4, you can't end the game satisfactorily without being forced into the role of junior super hero.  The S.Links system is not the main point of the game, it's a side mechanic.
#23 Posted by Turambar (6814 posts) -
@ShaggE said:

These fetish sims have been around for ages, just rarely seen outside of the fetish communities themselves. This is downright tame, to be honest. I'd love to see people's reactions to some of the guro and vore games that are out there...

Personally, I'm glad fetish games exist. People can't choose their fetishes, and some of the crazier or more harmful ones are less likely to be acted out on if there's a fictional outlet.

If this was a sexual fetish VN, the disabilities of the character would serve as a focus of any sexual scenario in order to satiate the people out for that stuff.  It doesn't.  If this was really a fetish VN, it'd be a pretty bad one.
#24 Posted by ShaggE (6574 posts) -

@Turambar said:

@ShaggE said:

These fetish sims have been around for ages, just rarely seen outside of the fetish communities themselves. This is downright tame, to be honest. I'd love to see people's reactions to some of the guro and vore games that are out there...

Personally, I'm glad fetish games exist. People can't choose their fetishes, and some of the crazier or more harmful ones are less likely to be acted out on if there's a fictional outlet.

If this was a sexual fetish VN, the disabilities of the character would serve as a focus of any sexual scenario in order to satiate the people out for that stuff. It doesn't. If this was really a fetish VN, it'd be a pretty bad one.

I haven't played it myself, just going off what OP was saying. He made it sound like this was eroge. My bad.

#25 Edited by Bocam (3787 posts) -

@spazmaster666: Otome games are weird because even when they're all ages there's still quite a bit of rape.

Through I really shouldn't judge other people's views on eroge. As I play stuff like this and love it.

#26 Posted by Animasta (14715 posts) -

@spazmaster666: Would you not say that the way these stories play out might make someone who doesn't have a lot of luck with the opposite sex try to play it as a game? That's what the book, The Game, is all about. There's a whole goddamn system/game of picking up girls for sex. Is that not dehumanizing? Yes, this is obviously a game, but a game can be just as creepy, pandering and misogynistic as real life can be.

@Turambar: Why do I have to date them, though? That's my point. Maybe I don't want to date the girls, but maybe I do want to help them with their problems. Like, I liked Rin's character and I wanted to see her succeed with her art exhibit. I would not want to date her or have sex with her. I can't help her with her problems WITHOUT dating her. There have been plenty where that was an option too. I just played one, Magical Diary, where i could resolve, say, Virginia's marriage proposal, without having to date her. That's great! I did end up wanting to date her, but I made a choice of dating her or not dating her, much as I might make the choice in real life. You can't do that in a lot of other dating sims though. Would have appreciated the option is all I'm saying.

#27 Posted by Turambar (6814 posts) -
@ShaggE said:

@Turambar said:

@ShaggE said:

These fetish sims have been around for ages, just rarely seen outside of the fetish communities themselves. This is downright tame, to be honest. I'd love to see people's reactions to some of the guro and vore games that are out there...

Personally, I'm glad fetish games exist. People can't choose their fetishes, and some of the crazier or more harmful ones are less likely to be acted out on if there's a fictional outlet.

If this was a sexual fetish VN, the disabilities of the character would serve as a focus of any sexual scenario in order to satiate the people out for that stuff. It doesn't. If this was really a fetish VN, it'd be a pretty bad one.

I haven't played it myself, just going off what OP was saying. He made it sound like this was eroge. My bad.

He's not wrong that there are sex scenes.  But they are vanilla and not fetishistic in presentation.
#28 Posted by spazmaster666 (1972 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@spazmaster666: Would you not say that the way these stories play out might make someone who doesn't have a lot of luck with the opposite sex try to play it as a game? That's what the book, The Game, is all about. There's a whole goddamn system/game of picking up girls for sex. Is that not dehumanizing? Yes, this is obviously a game, but a game can be just as creepy, pandering and misogynistic as real life can be.

If they have trouble differentiating between fantasy and reality sure. But if that's the case, all they have to do is watch TV and they'll get the same type of messages. BTW, your argument is the same kind of argument that people use to argue that violent video games make people commit violence or that porn turns people into sex addicts.

#29 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

@Do_The_Manta_Ray: The game was made by English speakers. It was a conscious decision on their part to give it a Japanese title.

#30 Posted by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

You're right, disabled people are disgusting abominations and deserve no love or sympathy from anyone.

They are repulsive creatures that should be wiped clean from the earth.

#31 Posted by Bocam (3787 posts) -

@Animasta said:

I would not want to date her or have sex with her.

What? Are you saying you're too good for disabled people?

#32 Posted by Turambar (6814 posts) -
@Bocam said:

@Animasta said:

I would not want to date her or have sex with her.

What? Are you saying you're too good for disabled people?

That is not at all what is being said actually.
#33 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@Turambar:

I think he may have been joking.

#34 Posted by ShaggE (6574 posts) -

@Turambar said:

@ShaggE said:

@Turambar said:

@ShaggE said:

These fetish sims have been around for ages, just rarely seen outside of the fetish communities themselves. This is downright tame, to be honest. I'd love to see people's reactions to some of the guro and vore games that are out there...

Personally, I'm glad fetish games exist. People can't choose their fetishes, and some of the crazier or more harmful ones are less likely to be acted out on if there's a fictional outlet.

If this was a sexual fetish VN, the disabilities of the character would serve as a focus of any sexual scenario in order to satiate the people out for that stuff. It doesn't. If this was really a fetish VN, it'd be a pretty bad one.

I haven't played it myself, just going off what OP was saying. He made it sound like this was eroge. My bad.

He's not wrong that there are sex scenes. But they are vanilla and not fetishistic in presentation.

In that light, I can't help but wonder how long OP has been on the internet... sounds like this is just a normal VN with a disability theme. I can see how that can be viewed as "exploitative porn", but that brings up questions of discrimination that I'm simply too tired to expound on, haha.

Anyway, I should shut my fat yap on the subject until I've seen this VN for myself.

#35 Posted by Animasta (14715 posts) -

@Bocam: if that sex scene wasn't there I would doubt Rin has any sexual attraction towards anyone

#36 Posted by SpunkyHePanda (1702 posts) -

@Animasta said:

I don't even care about sex or not sex. I personally don't want to see it, if you want to that's your thing and I don't care. there is a difference between a dating sim and a visual novel. Dating sims, what is the goal? to date someone. That's in the name. The reason you want to date them, have sex with them, whatever, the reason is that's the goal of the game. It reduces people down to prizes to be won. Like, even if there's a route in a dating sim where you actually don't get a girl or guy and it ends satisfactorily then I am completely fine with that game! but think of it this way;

in Katawa, there are 6 ways you can progress past the first act; the 5 girls and the bad ending. The bad ending, while funny, clearly says "you fucked up, and you did not interest any of the girls. Next time, try better". It does not end satisfactorily, in other words. I think all of the girls have bad endings, and I do believe all these bad endings make the main character depressed and might even make the girl depressed. You get rewarded for making the right choices with continued interaction with the girls, with more scenes in some cases. Like, you can't end that game satisfactorily without dating a girl.

And yes I know there are games where you play as women and pick up men or whatever, but I really hate the word misandric so I didn't want to use it. But that's terrible too! Like, if your goal out of the game is to see some anime tits (not saying it was yours) then you have to get a good ending or at least get past act 1. Think about Persona 4: You can not date any of the girls and their stories still resolve. Sure, they might be a little bummed that they can't get any sweet Yu action, but you still get a scene on christmas eve, just with the bros. You do not miss anything by not romancing any of them, and while the circumstances and the goals of the game are certainly different, it's still viable.

Oh, I dunno. Most people at one point or another in their lives are going to go out of their way to try and win the affections of someone else. Though there are definitely gross and manipulative ways to go about it, the concept itself is pretty innocuous. It's such a universal experience, why not make a video game out of it? If a character is written believably enough (probably an uphill battle in a pornographic game), maybe it feels less like he/she is the reward and more like two characters finding happiness together is the reward.

#37 Posted by Animasta (14715 posts) -

@SpunkyHePanda: Yeah, but in real life both people have goals. in a dating sim, one person has a goal and one person has a goal written FOR them. I'm not even hating on premise of dating someone in a visual novel, but dating sims don't usually have paths that let you just stay friends, because you might like the person but not actually want to date them. Like I said, I wanted to help Rin be the successful and I wanted us to be two bro's, not dating, but in KS I couldn't do that. I am always down for well written VN's though.

#38 Posted by Turambar (6814 posts) -
@SpunkyHePanda said:

Oh, I dunno. Most people at one point or another in their lives are going to go out of their way to try and win the affections of someone else. Though there are definitely gross and manipulative ways to go about it, the concept itself is pretty innocuous. It's such a universal experience, why not make a video game out of it? If a character is written believably enough (probably an uphill battle in a pornographic game), maybe it feels less like he/she is the reward and more like two characters finding happiness together is the reward.

Ultimately, the gross part of a VN like this is not that sex exists in it.  Especially in the case of this one where some of the scenarios where the two characters boning seems like a relatively natural progression.  The point where it gets annoying is when the plot slows down into a play by play description of the act of boning where things become undeniably gratuitous in all the wrong ways.  In telling a romance story, less is always more when it comes to sex.  Be upfront that it happened, but there's no reason to indulge in the minute details.  Fading to black would serve perfectly well.
#39 Posted by Turambar (6814 posts) -
@Animasta said:

@SpunkyHePanda: Yeah, but in real life both people have goals. in a dating sim, one person has a goal and one person has a goal written FOR them. I'm not even hating on premise of dating someone in a visual novel, but dating sims don't usually have paths that let you just stay friends, because you might like the person but not actually want to date them. Like I said, I wanted to help Rin be the successful and I wanted us to be two bro's, not dating, but in KS I couldn't do that. I am always down for well written VN's though.

That really just stems from VNs being more or less firmly entrenched in the romance genre when it comes to subject matter sadly.  I wouldn't mind seeing it branch out more, but I don't have an issue when with Katawa Shoujo does within the confines of the expected genre either.
#40 Posted by Animasta (14715 posts) -

@Turambar said:

@Animasta said:

@SpunkyHePanda: Yeah, but in real life both people have goals. in a dating sim, one person has a goal and one person has a goal written FOR them. I'm not even hating on premise of dating someone in a visual novel, but dating sims don't usually have paths that let you just stay friends, because you might like the person but not actually want to date them. Like I said, I wanted to help Rin be the successful and I wanted us to be two bro's, not dating, but in KS I couldn't do that. I am always down for well written VN's though.

That really just stems from VNs being more or less firmly entrenched in the romance genre when it comes to subject matter sadly. I wouldn't mind seeing it branch out more, but I don't have an issue when with Katawa Shoujo does within the confines of the expected genre either.

no, I suppose not, I just think that getting angry at KS for being about disabled people is missing the point.

#41 Posted by SpunkyHePanda (1702 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@SpunkyHePanda: Yeah, but in real life both people have goals. in a dating sim, one person has a goal and one person has a goal written FOR them. I'm not even hating on premise of dating someone in a visual novel, but dating sims don't usually have paths that let you just stay friends, because you might like the person but not actually want to date them. Like I said, I wanted to help Rin be the successful and I wanted us to be two bro's, not dating, but in KS I couldn't do that. I am always down for well written VN's though.

You're right, that's an important distinction. I just think it's a matter of how well-written those goals are, ideally so they don't feel written at all. I agree that there should probably be more general "relationship sims."

#42 Posted by Turambar (6814 posts) -
@Animasta said:

no, I suppose not, I just think that getting angry at KS for being about disabled people is missing the point.

Well, yeah, that part is a given.
#43 Posted by Getz (3119 posts) -

You've voided your entire argument by not playing the game at all. Your claims about the representation of the characters are wrong and you have no means of rebuttal because you're arguing from ignorance. What is this shit man? Play the game first and then come back and tell us how disgusted you are. You're no better than the hacks who said Mass Effect has explicit sex in it.

#44 Posted by BabyChooChoo (4667 posts) -

@Dagbiker said:

You realize you can turn the "adult" stuff off right. I haven't played the game my self, but not every one that plays it is a horny teenager wanting to get off on a disabled person. I downloaded it to see what the fuss was about, and im planing on turning off the porny stuff.

As someone who played through it with the adult stuff on in thee first playthrough, let me say you're making the right choice for a number of reasons. Most notably, the sex scenes actually take away from what otherwise is an amazing expeirence because they feel so awkward and forced.

Online
#45 Posted by Animasta (14715 posts) -

@BabyChooChoo said:

@Dagbiker said:

You realize you can turn the "adult" stuff off right. I haven't played the game my self, but not every one that plays it is a horny teenager wanting to get off on a disabled person. I downloaded it to see what the fuss was about, and im planing on turning off the porny stuff.

As someone who played through it with the adult stuff on in thee first playthrough, let me say you're making the right choice for a number of reasons. Most notably, the sex scenes actually take away from what otherwise is an amazing expeirence because they feel so awkward and forced.

plus those bumping pictures of fruit and fish are funny as hell

#46 Posted by TruthTellah (9363 posts) -

So you're against the game because a lot of people are interested in the game for the wrong reasons?

Unfortunately, there's few things in life to like if other people's bad interest in something turns you away. I like anime, but I do know there's a whole contingency that watch them and perversely lust after the young characters like creeps. I like football, but I do know many people are only interested in it for their own little fantasy leagues and side betting. I like Soul Calibur for the gameplay, but I know many will only pick it up for the titillation. I like to subscribe to Giant Bomb because I support the crew in what they're doing here and the great videos they make, but I do know there are people who subscribe to Giant Bomb just to have license to demand more and more from them while whining every step of the way like entitled jerks. I like the Internet as a tool for communication, knowledge, and empowerment, but I do know a decent number of people don't really use the Internet for anything besides jerking off.

I like Katawa Shoujo because the characters interest me and I have enjoyed conversations discussing the stories with others online, but I do know there are people who just go into it as a freak show.

How other people regard something is certainly a topic worth discussing, but it does not impact what I do or what I like. I'll be damned if the stupidity of others will stop me from possibly trying and enjoying something. The intentions of others don't define everything for me; I decide for myself.

Try it and decide for yourself.

Online
#47 Posted by Phatmac (5726 posts) -

It's a decent VN, the first one I've played since I heard so much about it on the web. It was nice to play something different. I think the writing is decent for the low bar that I had for these kind of games and game writing in general. It's a nice attempt that I hope to see a sequel too. While I won't make a habit of it, I'd like to play a few more of the best of these kinds of games. If anyone has any good recommendations for a dating sim like this(hopefully it isn't too focused on hentai or whatever.) than respond to this. Huh, still feel weird that I admitted that I played a strange game as this, but I'm glad that I wan't the only one.

#48 Posted by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

Let's be clear here, these are my personal thoughts on the thread and the public who reads it. I'll state clearly that I have not read the OP, nor have any intention to. This is by no means an attempt to insult or villainize the thread as a whole; merely my thoughts on it. Don't like it? Well, that's okay, you're probably a cool person anyway.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  • This entire post is the short version, read it twice if you want the long version.

OP seems like he's (she's?) got some misconceptions about KS, the VN genre, and the genre's fans. It's gonna be okay, duder.

I'm still baffled that there's people talking about KS who haven't played it. If you're even remotely interested, play it for like 30 minutes and see if you get into it.

From Video_Game_King's hovel on the Moon, he's somehow to land the first comment on like every thread about KS and random-ass JRPGs most folks have never heard of. Bravo, sir.

@Animasta: What anime is your avatar from? This has been driving me insane for months but I never remember to ask!

In the same way one might slow down to have a gander at car accident, does anyone know if there are any hentai/eroge/Idon'tknowwhatwordsmean games that actually do sexualize disabled ladies? Maybe we could direct out ire/eyeballs at that instead.

You guys are great! Happy Heinrich Rudolf Hertz' birthday, everyone!

#49 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@Ravenlight:

It's my duty as the site's resident weeaboo. Also, when you can, at will, transform into Crono, Link, The Prince, Stocke, that butthole from Singularity, or just about any other video game character who can travel through time, time itself becomes somewhat meaningless.

#50 Posted by Animasta (14715 posts) -

@Ravenlight: it's catherine dawg

This edit will also create new pages on Giant Bomb for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Giant Bomb users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.