Sorry for the very short rant, but god every time this character comes on screen I can help but face palm. She's basically wearing a leather pair of panties and bra with a bunch of belts strapped on it's utterly ridiculous. I'm a pretty big proponent of sensible armor on female characters in rpgs, but I understand marketing and that other people have differing opinions on what they like, so normally I can handle a little cleavage or say a armored breastplate with an exposed mid-drift. It bugs me, but it's really not too troubling. This on the other hand is nearly unbearable... every time I see this character it is completely destroys any sort of immersion I felt.

God it feels good to get that off my chest, apologies to anyone who read this but arrghh... so annoying.

Edit: Damn is there anyway to write a blog post without associating it with a forum? I didn't really want to spam this out anywhere since it's purely for personal cathartic reasons. Oh well...

Sorry for the very short rant, but god every time this character comes on screen I can help but face palm. She's basically wearing a leather pair of panties and bra with a bunch of belts strapped on it's utterly ridiculous. I'm a pretty big proponent of sensible armor on female characters in rpgs, but I understand marketing and that other people have differing opinions on what they like, so normally I can handle a little cleavage or say a armored breastplate with an exposed mid-drift. It bugs me, but it's really not too troubling. This on the other hand is nearly unbearable... every time I see this character it is completely destroys any sort of immersion I felt.

God it feels good to get that off my chest, apologies to anyone who read this but arrghh... so annoying.

Edit: Damn is there anyway to write a blog post without associating it with a forum? I didn't really want to spam this out anywhere since it's purely for personal cathartic reasons. Oh well...

I guess you don't like Soul Calibur then...

@benspyda said:

I guess you don't like Soul Calibur then...

Well I'm not really into fighting games and something like Ivy's outfit makes thematically a lot more sense in the context of the, "over the top" presentation of the Soul Calibur fiction(Don't get me wrong it's still totally dumb, but so are a lot of other SC characters) so no I don't really hold any distaste for it. Though that's mostly because I don't have any personal investment in that game universe, on the other hand in a game like Reckoning where as far as I can tell they are at least going for a somewhat serious tone, it's entirely ridiculous(At least in my opinion).

Granted it's a freaking game so I should just get over it, but the point of blogs is to express your dumb unnecessary opinions and thus lower everyone's overall impression of your intelligence.

Mission Accomplished...

@BelligerentEngine said:

Edit: Damn is there anyway to write a blog post without associating it with a forum?

Yep. Just ignore that green box that pops up after posting your blog, and it should keep the entry off the forums.

@BelligerentEngine: I didn't mind your thoughts on it. I don't have the game, but sounds weird/funny.

Had to look up the character since I haven't started KoA yet but she looks pretty damn cool in this picture. The design seems reasonable for a female rogue.

http://reckoning.amalur.com/r/game/characters/alyn-shir

@Blannir said:

Had to look up the character since I haven't started KoA yet but she looks pretty damn cool in this picture. The design seems reasonable for a female rogue.

http://reckoning.amalur.com/r/game/characters/alyn-shir

The picture comes off quite a better than it does in game, however even that is an example of somewhat implausible equipment. A rogue-like character would need places to conceal tools of the trade, while fair enough the equipment displayed certainly fits for a "scandalous ambassador" description given in the accompanying text. It doesn't really seem like the kind of outfit that would be appropriate for a diplomatic summit or something of that nature. Though I suppose I can't really comment on the cultural idiosyncrasies of some elfine race from a fantasy universe that I have only spent a limited amount of time in. However in most of the situations I have thus far encounter this character, there has been some amount of combat involved and regardless of whether or not her outfit would constitute some sort of cultural faux pas in a social situation, it can hardly be described as something that would provide adequate protection in any sort of combat encounter.

That said this blog is really just me engaging one of my fantasy rpg pet peeves. It's just in game it just feels so blatant that while normally this sort of character (like Morrigan's default outfit in Dragon Age for example) would just make me groan a little bit, and then enjoy them for their positive values. In this particular case it feels as though the game is actively taunting people of my particular view point, which is not actively helped by the fact that I've found the character annoying from a dialogue perspective as well.

Regardless it's a minor point of contention and despite the exasperation it give me. I can certainly acknowledge that I'm just making a fuss about something in the grand scheme of things is really not important.

In conclusion I'm a dumb nitpicker. Sorry for wasting people's time =].

Yep, its really dumb. Its exactly as dumb as a lot of the Japanese stuff people complain about on these forums (and rightly so). Its the epitome of nerd fantasy bullshit.

If it's the girl I'm thinking of, then yeah she's pretty ridiculously attired. Oddly enough I haven't seen any marketing with her though, so it's not like they slapped her on the cover to attract attention.

Still, she's definitely on the Ivy side of things, and that's just not good for anybody.

First time I saw her in the demo, I physically winced.
It's one of the shittiest tropes in fantasy, to the point where we now have other games/people in the industry poking fun at this all the time.
Sadly it's not done ironically in Amalur.

She looks more fit to kill with her vagina then those blades. Why is fantasy and gaming still like this?

Jep - I did facepalm a little upon meeting her in the demo. Any female character design that's the equivalent of what a working girl would wear in a 'meet the girls' line-up in a brothel doesn't seem sensible to me, unless the character in question is actually a working girl in a brothel dressed up for a 'meet the girls' line-up, as seen in Dragon Age : Origins.
 
Isabella in Dragon Age 2 nails the look of a sexy female rogue-type. Skintight cloak & daggers chic.

What is your take on male characters that have huge, for most men unobtainable, a lot of the time fictitiously big, muscles?

@duggshammer: They usually like wear shirts or at least cover some parts of their body up, as well as wielding gigiantic fucking weapons that require a lot of muscle to handle = they got muscles.

And yes, Isabella has a good look. Looks more like Ezio then a whore.

@duggshammer said:

What is your take on male characters that have huge, for most men unobtainable, a lot of the time fictitiously big, muscles?

It's an issue of apparel not body type. Speaking specifically to fantasy games the male body type you describe is usually reserved for barbarian/gladiator type characters so it is thematically relatively sensible, and actually personally I feel that the female equivalent or said character's should show similar traits in body type IE. if you want to portray a female barbarian, than her size and muscle build should reflect her class type. Similarly to how any smart confident female fighter should be aware enough to want to wear armor that offers the maximum amount of protection for her given fighting style.

Whenever I see ridiculously revealing female armor in games the best equivalent I can think of is the comparison between say a erotic nurse outfit, and a real nurse in scrubs.

Games simply aren't marketed that way, but if a lot of dudes in games wore armored thongs or something, yeah that in my mind would be equally stupid to something like this. Though I would tolerate it because maybe after dealing with the culture shock of that, more people would come around to my point of view haha =P.

I think that sex appeal is fine and brick house female characters are great. When it comes to showing skin, though, less is more. If you met a girl dressed like that on the street, your first reaction wouldn't be 'hot', in all likelihood, it'd be "did she just break up with her boyfriend or something? Does she want money?" I think that the designer of this character should have used that as his litmus test for her outfit.

Eh, seems on par with about all fantasy character design. Don't see why this particular example is so egregious.

And if you want to bring the practicality/protection argument into play: Armor doesn't offer as much protection as most people think. Protection varries inversely to thickness (save for chain mail), and thickness is limited by the wearer. You'll still get killed in the heaviest armor if you can't move. And even with the correct balance, all armor really protects you from is wayward, un-aimed attacks that are likely to happen in a large scale battle. If someone goes for a piecing attack, you're probably going to die armor or no.

In terms survivability, in a small scale conflict (like the ones in most videogames) having a good shield and knowing how to use it properly is more apt to save your life.

@Veektarius said:

I think that sex appeal is fine and brick house female characters are great. When it comes to showing skin, though, less is more. If you met a girl dressed like that on the street, your first reaction wouldn't be 'hot', in all likelihood, it'd be "did she just break up with her boyfriend or something? Does she want money?" I think that the designer of this character should have used that as his litmus test for her outfit.

I understand what you're saying, but if I saw someone dressed like this in public, I'd either think she's a model from some new age fashion show or some sort of con is in town and she's a cos-player. Doesn't really seem like a post break up attire for even the most amorous real women.

Totally agree with the less is more theory about presenting a compelling female character in video games though.

Look how many Mass Effect fans are, "obsessed" whether jokingly or otherwise with Tali. She's by a fair margin the most subtly conveyed female relationship option from that series.

To be fair though having played a lot more of Amalur since I made this blog, very little about this game could really be said to be subtle in it's implementation.

@SoldierG654342 said:

Eh, seems on par with about all fantasy character design.

Nah, just the shitty/cheesy/generic fantasy.

Plenty of RPGs manage to avoid such basic disgusting tropes.

@SoldierG654342 said:

And if you want to bring the practicality/protection argument into play: Armor doesn't offer as much protection as most people think. Protection varries inversely to thinness (save for chain mail), and thickness is limited by the wearer. You'll still get killed in the heaviest armor because you can't move. And even with the correct balance, all armor really protects you from is wayward, un-aimed attacks that are likely to happen in a large scale battle. If someone goes for a piecing attack, you're probably going to die armor or no.

In terms surviveability, in a small scale conflict (like the ones in most videogames), having a good shield and knowing how to use it properly is more apt to save your life.

You don't have to be wearing full plate armor to have some decent protection. People can use chainmail, boiled/studed leather, etc... It's the same principle as any armor ever, it's not going to make you impervious, but it might just save your life by deflecting a blade or stopping a glancing blow. And heavily armored knights dominated a period in human history for a reason, for a long time no one had an answer to them. (she also doesn't have a shield btw)

All of this armor/protection/mobility argument is irrelevant when she is waring amounts to a leather bikini and thong.

Very practical and inconspicuous. Doesn't get akward in a fight at all. And no one pays her any attention in towns.

And yes, Isabella has a good look. Looks more like Ezio then a whore.

I'm eagerly awaiting rule 34 to take affect with this one. The results should be fun.

@SoldierG654342 said:

Eh, seems on par with about all fantasy character design. Don't see why this particular example is so egregious.

And if you want to bring the practicality/protection argument into play: Armor doesn't offer as much protection as most people think. Protection varries inversely to thickness (save for chain mail), and thickness is limited by the wearer. You'll still get killed in the heaviest armor if you can't move. And even with the correct balance, all armor really protects you from is wayward, un-aimed attacks that are likely to happen in a large scale battle. If someone goes for a piecing attack, you're probably going to die armor or no.

In terms survivability, in a small scale conflict (like the ones in most videogames) having a good shield and knowing how to use it properly is more apt to save your life.

The continued development of personal armor and the strength there of, played a hugely important part in the development of warfare throughout the history of man, only really falling to wayside a bit with the mass implementation of high penetration gunpowder munitions. Your broadly reaching speculation about its lack of efficacy in small scale combat situations is a gross misrepresentation of the truth, for example, mid to late Renaissance era full-plate was essentially impervious to weapons not specifically designed to combat it and even against such weapons still offered a significant degree of protection.

The amount of effort required to thrust a sword through a man's bare flesh and the amount of effort required to do the same to couple of centimeters of hardened steel plate, mail and padding is simply not comparable. While yes is possible to attack weaker areas of the structure, even vulnerable areas such as the inner thighs and armpits are still girded against attack and maneuvering to engage said weak points would expose an attacker to retaliation.

In regards to shields. The kind of person that would be lugging around a kite shield is not the kind of person being portrayed in Alyn Shir. While fair enough she could be using a buckler, the entire reason shields saw a reduction in size for hand to hand combat purpose was the improvement in armor. A heavy shield can be and often is more of a limitation to mobility than a full set of armor, as the weight from the armor is displaced over the entirety of the wearer's body, while a lightweight shield can be destroyed or stripped from the wearer with repeated blows.

I agree with you that this is a common fantasy design for female characters. I think the primary reason I took issue with this particular instances was that I was taken by surprise, since I hadn't paid much attention to the marketing for this game.

Okay I just met her at the fateweaver dude's house. Her getup is pretty silly, I agree, if fairly on par for the brand of fantasy that Reckoning is embracing.

I just don't know, man. If the goal is to titillate the male gamer, I feel as if there is a better way than this. Hell, the Witcher 2 was one of the bawdiest games I've ever played, but at least that game acknowledged that sex is a thing that happens - this is more the teenage version of sexuality where you're curious about the female form but don't actually know what to do.

Here's a question for everybody....would you have a problem with Alyn if she was a he and dressed the exact same way? ( And you know what I mean, not a dude dressed exactly like her but an outfit with the an equivalent amount of skin showing)

Now that we got that out of the way....I don't see the problem with this, it's a classic fantasy characterization, and Reckoning is Classic Fantasy so the fact that they had a scantily clad female character doesn't bug me so much, since I know years ago it would be way worse than just one character in a skimpy armor bikini.

Here's a question for everybody....would you have a problem with Alyn if she was a he and dressed the exact same way? ( And you know what I mean, not a dude dressed exactly like her but an outfit with the an equivalent amount of skin showing)

Now that we got that out of the way....I don't see the problem with this, it's a classic fantasy characterization, and Reckoning is Classic Fantasy so the fact that they had a scantily clad female character doesn't bug me so much, since I know years ago it would be way worse than just one character in a skimpy armor bikini.

I wish I could be a pole remover right about now, with how far they are up your butts I'd make a killing if I charged by the metre.

I wish I could be a pole remover right about now, with how far they are up your butts I'd make a killing if I charged by the metre.

I like the character, Alyn Shir is a good character with an interesting backstory and a pretty pivotal role in the main quest... but goddamn, that outfit.

I can understand wanting her to be a sexy rogue. The way Agarth describes her, she's like a black widow, but there are much, much better ways to design an outfit that both stays consistent with the world of Amalur as well as making her silhouette distinct from other characters. Someone mentioned DA2's Isabella, and that's a good point. There is a place for that kind of design, but it doesn't feel like it belongs in Amalur. She is literally the only character in the game world that looks even remotely like that.

My biggest problem with Alyn Shir's outfit is that she stands out so hard. If her attire was justified by her character, backstory, race, or simply a standard way of dressing for some of the female characters, it wouldn't be so egregious.

@makari said:

I wish I could be a pole remover right about now, with how far they are up your butts I'd make a killing if I charged by the metre.

One of the best fucking posts I've ever read, thank you for brightening up my morning.

Not that I think these characters should be more common, but there's not much you can do about it.

Does anyone think that alyn could be lulu from final fantasy 10's cousin or relative? Its the belts! Theres so many it just boggles the imagination. Who decides to just strap on belts on top of their belts?

But seriously, I found alyn to be one of the few interesting characters from the game in terms of personality. Its like she has one up on everyone and every faction in the game.

While I agree that she does look a tad out of place in comparison to other characters, I would like to input that she is in fact a rogue. Now, that's not to say that all rogue's should walk around naked, but my point is rather that the only real effective armour that would stop a straight stab from a sword, or even a glancing slash, is heavy plate armour as someone mentioned before. As a rogue, the whole idea is being fast and agile, so obviously plate armour is a no go. Even chainmail is probably too cumbersome - especially for a woman (I've tried that guys - long story - and seriously... I could barely walk). Therefore, some light leather armour is likely the only suitable attire for someone of her stature and class, which in all honesty, is not all that effective at all. No light leather armour, no matter how much of your body it covers up, is going to protect you from magic, daggers and even glancing blows from a sword, therefore, as a female rogue, she may aswell wander around as she does. Afterall, as a rogue, your only real shot at surviving anyway is suprise attacks, dirty tactics and being fast enough to avoid being hit in the first place.

When I first saw her I couldn't comprehend who she was.

I thought she was a sprite/nymph/spriggan enemy that spawned in the house. Only after she talked to me and then vanished in a puff of smoke did I realize I was supposed to assume she killed the fateweaver because she was an assassin...or something.

 Gotta love the people saying "Oh, she isn't that under-dressed". I HAVE HAD SEX WITH PEOPLE WHO WERE WEARING MORE CLOTHING. How much more under-dressed could she be? 
 
This has nothing to do with prudishness, it's just dumb. I can excuse a lot of things because this is a sillier type of fantasy game than I'd usually play but this completely eliminates my suspension of disbelief every time I see it.
 

@ArfArfPsycho

While I agree that she does look a tad out of place in comparison to other characters, I would like to input that she is in fact a rogue. Now, that's not to say that all rogue's should walk around naked, but my point is rather that the only real effective armour that would stop a straight stab from a sword, or even a glancing slash, is heavy plate armour as someone mentioned before. As a rogue, the whole idea is being fast and agile, so obviously plate armour is a no go. Even chainmail is probably too cumbersome - especially for a woman (I've tried that guys - long story - and seriously... I could barely walk). Therefore, some light leather armour is likely the only suitable attire for someone of her stature and class, which in all honesty, is not all that effective at all. No light leather armour, no matter how much of your body it covers up, is going to protect you from magic, daggers and even glancing blows from a sword, therefore, as a female rogue, she may aswell wander around as she does. Afterall, as a rogue, your only real shot at surviving anyway is suprise attacks, dirty tactics and being fast enough to avoid being hit in the first place.

@Storms: You obviously misread my post, or don't understand what the word cumbersome means. I never said chainmail would be ineffective against swords, I said that it would be ineffective for a rogue as it would be impossible to move and jump around in for someone of her size. As to the leather thing, I shall answer below.

@Tennmuerti: The leather armour a rogue such as herself would need for maneuverability would be much thinner than that of the hardened battle ready warriors throughout history. This kind of armour would be unlikely to even protect all that much against glancing blows as they would still reach the skin. Yes, I concede that any armour would be better than her relative nakedness, I'm simply saying that it wouldn't be all that much better and trying to offer a different perspective to those who seem really put off by it.

And to your second point, that is something I never disputed. I already stated that she does tend to make herself stick out like a sore thumb and that definately doesn't lend well to subterfuge, however I guess that's her prerogative. Perhaps she intends to distract everyone with her body so they can't see what her hands are doing eh? Or maybe she's just a hoe. :P

I'm actually a huge history buff, and yes people did use leather a lot throughout history, but it was harder, battle ready armour, not used for the rogue archetype we see in fantasy games as it would once again have been more difficult to move in. Overall however, she probably should put some clothes on and cover herself up, if nothing else but for decency's sake, however from a battle point of view, it doesn't make a remarkable amount of difference for a rogue. Though I do accept that yes, perhaps that small amount of difference could be the life saver, but its a small chance. Still a chance all the same I suppose, and one if she were a real person she probably should have taken into consideration.

@BelligerentEngine: dude i totaly agree with you, i find it insane that a women would wear belts in to combat ;/

@Shun_Akiyama said:

@Ertard said:

And yes, Isabella has a good look. Looks more like Ezio then a whore.

Irony, because Isabella is a whore.

Isabella was an offensive joke in many ways.

They definitely could have done a better job in her outfit choice. The rant is warranted. Unfortunately, there is still a lot of latent sexism in an industry dominated by men.

yep, it's gotta be the worst offence of this kind i've ever seen

Bothered me, too. Reckoning's writing has pretty good sexual politics so far. Her outfit is weird. My female sorceress's unfazed, critical eyes that never stop staring seem just as annoyed at this gaf as I do. Course, she looks that way at everything, but she seems especially put off. I do like that my character is well dressed and only scantily clad when I forget that replacing robes with chest or leg armor only leads to bra or underwear.

Did you ever stop and think maybe she likes wearing that weird stuff and its completely comfortable and practical for her to wear? She's not exactly a normal character within the games fiction, if you complete the main story you'll see. Way I see it if we're going to complain about an elf lady wearing leather straps, why not complain about soldiers running at the speed of a small automobile wearing top heavy full body plate armor while wielding swords 6 times their size and weight.

The "I don't want to see silly outfits in an already silly game" argument is old, tiresome and stupid. People need to stop with it already.

@Lazyaza: It isn't really a silly game, is it? It seemed to play its fiction pretty straight.

@ArfArfPsycho:  I never said chainmail would be ineffective against swords

@ArfArfPsycho:   the only real effective armour that would stop a straight stab from a sword, or even a glancing slash, is heavy plate armour

@Veektarius: When I said silly I didn't mean un-serious so much as un-realistic, I was talking more specifically about the art direction. The biggest problem the game has aside from being kinda weak in the story/lore department is its muddled design aesthetics. While I don't agree that Alyn stands out given their are other characters dressed in equally impracticle attire, such as the various elf npcs who wear that one piece pantless cloth getup that would surely require double sided tape to work. I do agree that the game needed a more unique look to it. I was constantly impressed by the designs of the monsters and creatures for example but alot of the armor and weapons are pretty bland until you get to the very high end stuff. Even then my lvl 38 in full epics just looks like any other pointy armored fantasy dood.

The characters look like they are from the art off the Forgotten Realms books. Too light fantasy for me.

Much like Rule 34, if a game exists there is fanservice in it, deal with it. Hell, almost every type of media has a great deal of fanservice, though it's not quite as universal as it is in games.

@Storms: Heh fair enough. I meant when mentioning chainmail that while it would also work - though slightly less effectively than plate armour - it would be too cumbersome.

And while I see what you're getting at with the some parts soft, some hard leather thing, it would have to be very small amounts of chainmail used so as not to make it too heavy. It's really easy to underestimate just how heavy chainmail is, especially for a woman of her stature. If you could somehow make armour of soft leather with small fortifications of chainmail however so as to make it effective in battle but still light, it would be great attire for a rogue. However it would take one hell of a designer and smithy to pull it off properly.

@BelligerentEngine said:

@Veektarius said:

I think that sex appeal is fine and brick house female characters are great. When it comes to showing skin, though, less is more. If you met a girl dressed like that on the street, your first reaction wouldn't be 'hot', in all likelihood, it'd be "did she just break up with her boyfriend or something? Does she want money?" I think that the designer of this character should have used that as his litmus test for her outfit.

I understand what you're saying, but if I saw someone dressed like this in public, I'd either think she's a model from some new age fashion show or some sort of con is in town and she's a cos-player. Doesn't really seem like a post break up attire for even the most amorous real women.

Totally agree with the less is more theory about presenting a compelling female character in video games though.

Look how many Mass Effect fans are, "obsessed" whether jokingly or otherwise with Tali. She's by a fair margin the most subtly conveyed female relationship option from that series.

To be fair though having played a lot more of Amalur since I made this blog, very little about this game could really be said to be subtle in it's implementation.

That's funny that you mention Tali because after doing some random research into this character both Ash Sroka (voice actress for Tali) and Abby Craden (voice of Alyn Shir) were in the Blood+ anime. Interesting overlap don't you think?

@Scattergories said:

@BelligerentEngine said:

@Veektarius said:

I think that sex appeal is fine and brick house female characters are great. When it comes to showing skin, though, less is more. If you met a girl dressed like that on the street, your first reaction wouldn't be 'hot', in all likelihood, it'd be "did she just break up with her boyfriend or something? Does she want money?" I think that the designer of this character should have used that as his litmus test for her outfit.

I understand what you're saying, but if I saw someone dressed like this in public, I'd either think she's a model from some new age fashion show or some sort of con is in town and she's a cos-player. Doesn't really seem like a post break up attire for even the most amorous real women.

Totally agree with the less is more theory about presenting a compelling female character in video games though.

Look how many Mass Effect fans are, "obsessed" whether jokingly or otherwise with Tali. She's by a fair margin the most subtly conveyed female relationship option from that series.

To be fair though having played a lot more of Amalur since I made this blog, very little about this game could really be said to be subtle in it's implementation.

That's funny that you mention Tali because after doing some random research into this character both Ash Sroka (voice actress for Tali) and Abby Craden (voice of Alyn Shir) were in the Blood+ anime. Interesting overlap don't you think?

I don't really watch anime so I'm not familiar with Blood+. It's an interesting coincidence, though not super surprising, many voice actors are pretty prolific.