LoL a "step backwards" for a DOTA 2 player?

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#51 Edited by Nadril (527 posts) -

Why do we need more of these threads? They are always frustrating to read because of the massive amount of mis-information that goes around in them.

At the very least if you're going to argue it just argue it from your games perspective. I don't try to talk about LoL because I don't know a fucking a lot about it other than when I played I found it slow and the lack of available characters dull. I have no clue what the "LoL meta" is because I don't watch nor play the game.

I'm a Dota player and, honestly, I would rather just talk about how good of a game that is than try and list reasons why the other is worse. I see no real reason to actively compare the two because it is clear they are trying to be different things. When you try and mention some sort of mechanic or thing that you only vaugly know about it's actually really frustrating to read. People slamming things such as Denying, TP scrolls and even the trees on the map (I heard they were 'strategically useless' which is one of the more ridiculous things I have heard) have a very small idea of the importance of such things.

Meh, I shouldn't have even clicked the thread when I saw it ;p.

#52 Posted by Flacracker (1645 posts) -

@war4ha said:

Playing DOTA 2 is like going to a library filled with wheat. Sit quietly, and farm your wheat.

LoL is like going to a party, with at least 10 fist fights.

LoL is not a step backwards if you like fun. I suppose it's a step backwards from hating yourself though, so sure.

you farm wheat at a library?

whaaa?

He must be British or something. They have all sorts of crazy words and stuff.

#53 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3851 posts) -

Some of the stuff DOTA adds just sound annoying to deal with to me, that said, I'm newish to LoL so maybe after getting experienced I might change my mind. I will say that I like the personality LoL has way better. DOTA seems creatively bankrupt to me, they just took Blizzard characters and gave them inventive names like Axe and Warlock. Boring.

Before anyone jumps all over me, I know that's small potatoes, these games are all about mechanics and yeah, lore, character backgrounds, all that jazz doesn't mean a lot but for me it adds flavour I like.

#54 Posted by Nadril (527 posts) -

Some of the stuff DOTA adds just sound annoying to deal with to me, that said, I'm newish to LoL so maybe after getting experienced I might change my mind. I will say that I like the personality LoL has way better. DOTA seems creatively bankrupt to me, they just took Blizzard characters and gave them inventive names like Axe and Warlock. Boring.

Before anyone jumps all over me, I know that's small potatoes, these games are all about mechanics and yeah, lore, character backgrounds, all that jazz doesn't mean a lot but for me it adds flavour I like.

DOTA characters are filled to the brim with personality. Seriously, why can't people just get over their names (which are generic because Valve typically chose the most popular name / non licsenced name) and see that the actual characters have a ton of personality.

http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Timbersaw_responses

Take a look at his responses and then to the right and see all of the different responses the heroes in the game have. Valve did a great job of making it feel like you're playing more than just units in the game. Most heroes have a lot of responses for friendly/enemy heroes that are significant to them -- it's actually quite awesome. Timbersaw talks about how afraid he is of trees to many of the tree heroes, Lina and CM have quite the sibbling rivalry going on, KoTL just hits on every female character in the game.. and Kunkka/Tidehunter have a great rivalry.

I'm not sure how you could hate the personality of someone like Ogre Magi (sound clip from when he kills Invoker, one of many). Sure, he's got a generic name.. but name doesn't really mean much when he is so damn likable.

#55 Posted by IndieFinch (242 posts) -

LoL isn't a step backwards. It is just an entirely different game then Dota. They set out to achieve very different things and cater to very different audiences. Dota is a mechanically and mentally more difficult game. Due to how the heros work, the vast amount of strategies you can implore, as well as more punishing mechanics. Does this mean League is a bad game? Not at all, it just caters to a different audience and tries to achieve different goals.

It can be pretty much summarized up on their pay models. Dota gives you 100% of the heros for free, because the game is built on a decade old legacy of strategies and counters. If they charged for even 1 hero, it would completely break Dota into an unplayable game. League is built around the idea that you only need a few champions of each type to fill a role. So they have to balance that by making no one hero super powerful because it will give that person a major advantage. (Hence why you see a ton of tanky dps, with gap closers...) Where as in Dota you get the idea of, if everything is powerful then nothing is broken. So heros like Meepo appear where you get to control 4 separate heros...and a 5th when you get an Aghinims Sept. Or Invoker, where you get 10 castable spells based on the Q,W,E imput you put before casting it. This just makes Dota a bit more crazy with a ton of stuff you need to know before you can truly enjoy the game. Becuase of this, League makes things simpler (No loss of gold on death, no denying, no multiple unit control, no crazy heros) because they need things to remain stable so they can sell more champions.

I don't think anyone would argue that League is a more difficult game. However it is different a lot of people have no desire to play a more difficult game. Both games can survive together and cater to very different audiences. Its like some people before Super Smash Bros over Street Fighter...or some people prefer Call of Duty over Counter Strike...it comes down to what you play games for.

#56 Posted by cmblasko (1179 posts) -

@oodli said:

@cmblasko: You mean as if the skills from one game convert to the other or that the best from one game are as good as the best from the other?

Skills converting between the two. I would imagine that if LoL truly was a "step backwards" then the people who are really good at DOTA and play it for a living would learn how to play LoL and then make double the money.

That kind of happens in the fighting game community; a handful of really dedicated and talented players are able to place at or near the top across multiple games, but not nearly enough to say that one game takes more skill than the other.

#57 Posted by ajamafalous (11944 posts) -

Objectively? Yes. Obviously there are still people who will prefer League, and that's fine, but Dota is objectively a significantly more complex game.

I'm not going to read through this thread because every Dota/League thread is the same: League players saying "NO GUYS OUR GAME IS BETTER, THEY REMOVED ALL THE ARCHAIC OLD BULLSHIT FROM DOTA THAT MAKES IT SUCK LEAGUE IS SO MUCH MORE FUN ETC." That's totally fineif you feel that way, but those are opinions. The only objective assessment that can be made is that, with all of the mechanics that remain in Dota but were removed from League, it is objectively a more complex game, and, again, it is totally fine if you prefer League because of that. Just take a step back and look at things objectively if you want to have a conversation about them instead of vehemently and blindly defending the one that you prefer like it's System Wars.

#58 Edited by ArbitraryWater (11594 posts) -
@xeiphyer said:

Honestly, certain GB staff members shouldn't talk about shit he has no idea about. Same goes for a lot of people in this thread.

Fact checking ruins podcasts, remember? Stupid broken quoting.

#59 Edited by EXTomar (4641 posts) -

Speaking of comparisons we need to do some serious ones: Keeper of the Light hits on all of the girls...even the inhuman ones. @_@ Who is the "creepy uncle" of LoL? :)

#60 Posted by Irishdoom (333 posts) -

The wording of the whole thing is important. Because Brad chose to call it a step backwards is ok important. It's insulting to the rather large group of people who have spent an awful lot of time playing and enjoying LoL. Sure, it's more complex in some ways, but am I to understand they have no runes or masteries? Isn't that less complex?

#61 Edited by Encephalon (1240 posts) -

Okay... Follow me for a second, guys.

Is it possible, do you think, that Brad said "a step backwards" in reference to his lack of experience in LoL? As in, if he started playing one game after learning a ton of stuff in another, he would be taking, in terms of his ability to excel, A STEP BACKWARDS?

Wait, no, that couldn't be it. Never assume that a comment is totally innocuous if it can also be construed as a personal slight. Clearly, Brad's just trying to be a meanie.

#62 Posted by Irishdoom (333 posts) -

@encephalon: The way he said it so quietly, almost under his breath, as if he didn't want to say it? I say no. He likely knew as he was saying it that maybe it wasn't such a good idea. :)

#63 Posted by mrpandaman (864 posts) -

Having no experience and no right to talk about DOTA2 or LoL... I will say yes.

It is a huge step backward, only because DOTA2 came out after LoL and therefore is superior in every way having seen what is not good in LoL and did it better.

Again I want to say that I am extremely unqualified to talk about either game and my opinion should not be taken seriously. At all.

#64 Posted by thebunnyhunter (1375 posts) -

A step backwards.....i wouldn't say so, more like a step in a different direction. One chose to be more complex, and the other chose to be a bit less complex...both are good. I prefer Lol myself because what i played of Dota i preferred the arguably faster pace and characters in Lol, and i can see how after learning all the things you need to juggle in Dota 2 how LOL would seem like a step backwards. LoL has its own complexities to learn but Dota just has more. I just hope Brad gets around to playing it and can appreciate it for what it is and not critisize it for what is not....an exact copy Dota

#65 Edited by Otleaz (45 posts) -
@war4ha said:

Playing DOTA 2 is like going to a library filled with wheat. Sit quietly, and farm your wheat.

LoL is like going to a party, with at least 10 fist fights.

LoL is not a step backwards if you like fun. I suppose it's a step backwards from hating yourself though, so sure.

Depending on the hero lineup, Dota2 can turn into a perpetual teamfight as soon as the first tower goes down. It is a complete pain in the ass if you didn't get any farm in the lane phase, but it does prove that you have no clue what it is you are babbling about.

#66 Posted by AllThatBacon (519 posts) -

If Brad meant it as in he'd feel like his DOTA skills would suffer if he got into League, then yeah, that totally makes sense.

If he meant it as a knock against League and indicating that DOTA is so much deeper than LoL, well... I think that's kind of an ignorant statement on his part. To each his own, I doubt Brad meant it in a bashing way, but everybody seems to be taking it that way...?

Online
#67 Posted by Belegorm (396 posts) -

I think I wrote a long, well thought-out post twice, then thought better of it, so I'm cutting to the chase:

dota 2 is essentially the original dota, spiffied up a bit. So it's more or less a 10 year old game. LoL is a streamlined experience and can be compared to SC2, and you compare the original dota to BW. That was the original pull of LoL, as compared to HoN (long before dota 2 was around): LoL was the MOBA that sacrificed mechanics that many would consider dull and difficult to learn, in exchange for what many consider fun. For example, the greater aggression right from the start in LoL matches. HoN was the "hardcore" MOBA player's game; this was the one the old dota player would go to if he wanted a purer experience.

Also... for anyone complaining about LoL's meta: whenever Riot tries to do something to the meta, they try and shake it up. However, the way the meta actually changes is largely not due to Riot, but innovative pro teams. It started happening over in Korea first, with the first few lane swaps, then they started happening in NA and EU. At this point, in a pro LoL match, you'll rarely see the old meta positions; there'll be multiple lane swaps. Jungler will come in and help farm the lane, not just gank. Support may roam. People who complain about LoL's "stale meta" base it off of the fact that a huge portion of LoL's mainstream playerbase stick to the meta and don't adapt quickly (mostly because it's hard to communicate more complicated strategies). However LoL is largely balanced around the pro community and the meta has evolved this season a great deal in that.

lol it ended up being a long post after but... in the end I think it's just preference. I know people who have gone from LoL to dota 2; I've tried and I simply don't enjoy it as much.

#68 Posted by slyspider (1191 posts) -

Nope. Play what you want, but expect one side or the other to hate you for it cause this is PC games yall

#69 Posted by coaxmetal (1603 posts) -

as a recent dota elitist, of course a different game is a step backwards for brad.

Though I think, realistically, a step in any direction that wasn't dota would be forwards.

#70 Edited by jakob187 (21662 posts) -

League of Legends is a step sideways from DOTA 2. Heroes of Newerth is a step backwards.

#71 Posted by davidwitten22 (1708 posts) -

These threads always end badly, as all LoL vs. DotA 2 threads do. DotA is arguably much more complex, has greater strategical depth, and has a much fresher metagame. I went from LoL to DotA 2 and find DotA 2 to be a much deeper and better game, but that's just my opinion man. People should play whatever game they have more fun playing, regardless of whether or not I agree with their choice. DotA is the one for me, but it isn't for others.

#72 Posted by davidwitten22 (1708 posts) -

The wording of the whole thing is important. Because Brad chose to call it a step backwards is ok important. It's insulting to the rather large group of people who have spent an awful lot of time playing and enjoying LoL. Sure, it's more complex in some ways, but am I to understand they have no runes or masteries? Isn't that less complex?

I have to say, runes and masteries in LoL is the #1 thing that I hate about League. Being a lower level, or spending your IP on buying new champions instead of buying new runes (and to be honest in order to have optimized rune set-ups you need more than 2 pages, which requires spending real life money) puts a player in a disadvantage before the drafting phase even begins. I absolutely hate that. If all the runes, masteries, and champions were free it would make the game balanced outside of competitive games (because obviouvlsy tournament games have everything unlocked). But that will never happen because of $$$. LoL is a fun game though, runes and masteries are just completely stupid though.

#73 Posted by MAGZine (437 posts) -

@f00 said:

@magzine: The fact you're insulting me leads me to believe you're trolling me even more. What is hilariously under-informed in my first response, that is mostly questions? "A step backwards" is vague, and doesn't translate to complexity. Do you think the unit AI in SC:BW (which is terrible, in case you didn't know), is a step forward from SC2, because it required more effort to control units?

I would like you to re-read the title of the thread, instead of insulting me.

I didn't insult you.

You are dumb.

That's an insult.

Your post is dumb.

That's a critique, albeit a poor one.

Your post is dumb because the points you make are invalid or hold little salience to the point Psycho is trying to make.

That's constructive criticism.

i.e. "You control the lane by pushing at the same rate your opponent is..." So... how do you go about moving your lane backwards towards the tower, to a safer position. And your query about smoke... so one champion is a replacement for an item that anyone can buy? Nonsense.

That's a rebuttal.

Your points are hilariously underinformed because you make points are hardly even tangentially related to the real points that Psycho is making.

Do you think the unit AI in SC:BW (which is terrible, in case you didn't know), is a step forward from SC2, because it required more effort to control units?

No, but I don't see where this is going. If had a game that played itself for you, would you consider it a step forward because it was an easier game to play? The is a distinction between "more effort to control" and "mechanics". One being poorly designed/poorly programmed, and the other there for reason.

#74 Posted by RedCream (704 posts) -

There will always be someone who thinks they are superior just because they enjoy this or that.

#75 Edited by Nadril (527 posts) -

@belegorm said:

I think I wrote a long, well thought-out post twice, then thought better of it, so I'm cutting to the chase:

dota 2 is essentially the original dota, spiffied up a bit. So it's more or less a 10 year old game. LoL is a streamlined experience and can be compared to SC2, and you compare the original dota to BW. That was the original pull of LoL, as compared to HoN (long before dota 2 was around): LoL was the MOBA that sacrificed mechanics that many would consider dull and difficult to learn, in exchange for what many consider fun. For example, the greater aggression right from the start in LoL matches. HoN was the "hardcore" MOBA player's game; this was the one the old dota player would go to if he wanted a purer experience.

Also... for anyone complaining about LoL's meta: whenever Riot tries to do something to the meta, they try and shake it up. However, the way the meta actually changes is largely not due to Riot, but innovative pro teams. It started happening over in Korea first, with the first few lane swaps, then they started happening in NA and EU. At this point, in a pro LoL match, you'll rarely see the old meta positions; there'll be multiple lane swaps. Jungler will come in and help farm the lane, not just gank. Support may roam. People who complain about LoL's "stale meta" base it off of the fact that a huge portion of LoL's mainstream playerbase stick to the meta and don't adapt quickly (mostly because it's hard to communicate more complicated strategies). However LoL is largely balanced around the pro community and the meta has evolved this season a great deal in that.

lol it ended up being a long post after but... in the end I think it's just preference. I know people who have gone from LoL to dota 2; I've tried and I simply don't enjoy it as much.

I'll preface this by saying I really don't know anything about League's meta.

That being said I don't think some League players realize how much stuff can change and be different in Dota. I always see people use examples like "oh, the jungler will actually help the lane" or "The support might *gasp* roam" and I kind of feel like that isn't that crazy.

I'm not sure how much lanes change in League, but in Dota they change constantly. Obviously you'll usually have a standard 3-1-1 (sometimes a 2-2-1 with a double mid) but there is a lot of variables there. Not only variables in where you lane the tri lane, but who you put in it. I've seen a lot of mindgames where teams will send their carry to the solo hard lane to dodge the tri lane and just 1v1 against the other solo. Even tri lane heroes change constantly, and sometimes you'll see traditional off lane heroes playing in a tri or whatever.

Roaming is pretty much standard in Dota.

Honestly, even hero roles can change depending on the teams line up. Alchemist, for example, has been played as a hard carry, a solo mid and even a support. Likewise for Naga Siren. I'm not entirely aware if there are champions in League that actually can play multiple roles in the competitive scene.

So I dunno, maybe there are crazier things that happen in League.. but I've never heard of them. Maybe the meta isn't "stale", but compared to Dota I'm not entirely sure. Again, maybe I'm just ignorant about the entire thing.

Oh, and if there is one misconception I really dislike about Dota it's this conception that it is just a boring farm fest early. It can happen, but it doesn't always. Dota is a fairly dynamic game, and team compositions and plans can change quite wildly. Also, even in low kill games there is typically a lot of movement going on.

#76 Posted by President_Barackbar (3448 posts) -

@nadril said:

I'll preface this by saying I really don't know anything about League's meta.

That being said I don't think some League players realize how much stuff can change and be different in Dota. I always see people use examples like "oh, the jungler will actually help the lane" or "The support might *gasp* roam" and I kind of feel like that isn't that crazy.

I'm not sure how much lanes change in League, but in Dota they change constantly. Obviously you'll usually have a standard 3-1-1 (sometimes a 2-2-1 with a double mid) but there is a lot of variables there. Not only variables in where you lane the tri lane, but who you put in it. I've seen a lot of mindgames where teams will send their carry to the solo hard lane to dodge the tri lane and just 1v1 against the other solo. Even tri lane heroes change constantly, and sometimes you'll see traditional off lane heroes playing in a tri or whatever.

Roaming is pretty much standard in Dota.

Honestly, even hero roles can change depending on the teams line up. Alchemist, for example, has been played as a hard carry, a solo mid and even a support. Likewise for Naga Siren. I'm not entirely aware if there are champions in League that actually can play multiple roles in the competitive scene.

So I dunno, maybe there are crazier things that happen in League.. but I've never heard of them. Maybe the meta isn't "stale", but compared to Dota I'm not entirely sure. Again, maybe I'm just ignorant about the entire thing.

While LoL doesn't have the SAME meta, the meta in LoL shares almost all those same characteristics. There are a few champs in LoL who have dramatically changed roles. Nunu, for example, was exclusively played as a support, and then changed into a nearly exclusive jungler.

#77 Posted by Frostily (42 posts) -

@nadril: the typical league labeling setup is from the top. 1/1/2 with a jungler. Recently there has been a lot of 1/2/1 or 2/1/1 doing 2v1 lanes. There was recently a double caster lane with a support with a mana restore and a hard nuker(ap carry). Solo lanes roam frequently and supports do as well(depending on the support). In many cases recently we have also seen junglers playing a support like role and helping out in 2v1 lanes.

For a wile it was bruiser top, caster mid, carry/support bot, and jungle. Not so much any more not at the top levels anyways.

As for champion roles most can fill 2 some can fill 3-4 Elise can be anything but a hard carry(ADC) anything the can jungle can lane. ADC and support tend to be the most restricted though not allways, seems mostly the same as dota in that regard.

League has less mechanical complexity that's not something you can debate. League however has more going on in the pregame with runes and masterys.

I play both watch both and enjoy both. League makes me worse at dota, and dota makes me worse at league. The one big thing that makes me have more fun with league oftentimes is the ability to surrender when your team gives up and fountain camps wile you waste time, and that it is way harder to be completely dead in a game of league the lack of death goldloss and the reduction on bounty for multiple deaths makes it so that going 0-6 does not automatically make you useless.

#78 Edited by Otleaz (45 posts) -

@president_barackbar said:

While LoL doesn't have the SAME meta, the meta in LoL shares almost all those same characteristics. There are a few champs in LoL who have dramatically changed roles. Nunu, for example, was exclusively played as a support, and then changed into a nearly exclusive jungler.

Yet another one of the things that made me detest LoL: The incessant meddling the developers do with heroes. They are constantly changing the way the jungle works and how heroes are played to fit their ideal image. If you find a niche use of a hero, and a week later they make changes to make it impossible. The jungle changes for nunu, for example. "Why are you playing support? We want him to be a jungler" *nerf lane nunu, buff jungle nunu*

He was fine in the jungle before, but now he is ONLY in the jungle.

#79 Posted by WAR4HA (18 posts) -

@davidwitten22: Nobody buys runes until account level 20, so that doesn't really matter. Rune pages can also be bought for 6300 IP, so no, it does not cost real money.

#80 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3851 posts) -

@nadril said:

@thesoutherndandy said:

Some of the stuff DOTA adds just sound annoying to deal with to me, that said, I'm newish to LoL so maybe after getting experienced I might change my mind. I will say that I like the personality LoL has way better. DOTA seems creatively bankrupt to me, they just took Blizzard characters and gave them inventive names like Axe and Warlock. Boring.

Before anyone jumps all over me, I know that's small potatoes, these games are all about mechanics and yeah, lore, character backgrounds, all that jazz doesn't mean a lot but for me it adds flavour I like.

DOTA characters are filled to the brim with personality. Seriously, why can't people just get over their names (which are generic because Valve typically chose the most popular name / non licsenced name) and see that the actual characters have a ton of personality.

http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Timbersaw_responses

Take a look at his responses and then to the right and see all of the different responses the heroes in the game have. Valve did a great job of making it feel like you're playing more than just units in the game. Most heroes have a lot of responses for friendly/enemy heroes that are significant to them -- it's actually quite awesome. Timbersaw talks about how afraid he is of trees to many of the tree heroes, Lina and CM have quite the sibbling rivalry going on, KoTL just hits on every female character in the game.. and Kunkka/Tidehunter have a great rivalry.

I'm not sure how you could hate the personality of someone like Ogre Magi (sound clip from when he kills Invoker, one of many). Sure, he's got a generic name.. but name doesn't really mean much when he is so damn likable.

Yeah that stuffs good. I guess 'creatively bankrupt' was a bit harsh, just that whole situation the way the game came about and the pretty much straight rip of a lot of Blizzard characters sorta rubs me the wrong way. They're not all like that but I like being able to read character bio's for LoL. Like I said it doesn't have any bearing really on gameplay, just stuff I like.

I think LoL needs a serious overhaul on the pre and post game stuff though, it's kinda rough especially compared to DOTA and not having a built in way to watch your replays is super dumb.

#81 Posted by Irishdoom (333 posts) -

One thing to note about the whole "stale meta" argument. There was no stale meta in beta, and then coming out of beta. It didn't develop for some time. The meta is a reflection of high level play. Folks see teams win tourneys by playing a certain way, and pretty soon 75% of your player base wants to play it just like that.

Right now it might seem like DOTA 2 is so flexible in how it's played, but it's still early. :)

#82 Posted by AlexW00d (6231 posts) -

Nope. Play what you want, but expect one side or the other to hate you for it cause this is PC games yall

How is this any different to PS3 vs Xbox? Or CoD vs BF3/Halo? Or GT5 vs Forza 3/4? Or X vs Y?

Oh wait, it isn't.

#83 Edited by Xyber (292 posts) -

@alexw00d said:

@slyspider said:

Nope. Play what you want, but expect one side or the other to hate you for it cause this is PC games yall

How is this any different to PS3 vs Xbox? Or CoD vs BF3/Halo? Or GT5 vs Forza 3/4? Or X vs Y?

Oh wait, it isn't.

Get your logic out of here!

#84 Edited by CheapPoison (727 posts) -

@irishdoom: That really isn't an argument if you take into account that Dota has been around 10 years. It has evolved and grown in those years and the version released then is not the one we are playing here, but if it would have really stabilized around one meta it probably would of done so a while ago.

And I personally couldn't go back to Lol out of personal taste, but i have played over a 1500 game of Lol and it is a fine game.
I would say it is a definite step back in business model. I mainly stopped playing Lol cause of the night and day difference between Dota and Lol in that regard. That being said Lol is eve non the good side of the free to play model, but Dota 2 is just on a different level there. It gives me everything for free and i don't have to mess around with the runesystem and summoner levels(that is sometimes i truly hate about that game though, always have always will, but permanent progression has a certain draw, but it has no place in a competitve game) and that feeling probably will make me end up spending more on Dota cause i feel i am not being jerked around.
Not that I fault them for it, it is a business after all and Dota being on steam can pull from other sources. (Bringing lot of dota players on steam, although there is something to be said that they only play dota and very little besides that, but if only 20% sticks. And it being on steam means people might have 2 bucks left in their steam wallet and that can end up making it's way into dota, but i guess that is once again a benefit of it being one huge platform instead of just being one game.)

#85 Posted by Irishdoom (333 posts) -

@cheappoison: DOTA has had neither the gigantic player base that these newer games have. It's been around a long time, sure, but it's never been a mainstream game. It's also never had a big money, highly visible competitive scene like these new MOBAs.

#86 Posted by Example1013 (4834 posts) -

Hah. It's funny because brad's absolute garbage in both games.

#87 Posted by CheapPoison (727 posts) -

@irishdoom: Technically bigger playerbase should result in more experimentation and more possiblities popping up. I do think it is mainly the competitve scene that brings about changes in the meta game and that they might play it safer and so not experiment too much.
Still i think there is no basis to say that suddenly dota will stagnate cause it got big, it might but.

#88 Posted by EXTomar (4641 posts) -

Side note: It doesn't matter which game I am continually dismayed by people harping on Brad for "sucking". 99% of the player base "sucks" by that definition. I personally think Brad should get production help so he doesn't have to mind the stream and trying to direct the camera while playing but even then I'm still entertained. I don't watch matches like this for high level play where I have any number of outlets for that. Why I watch "The Daily Dota" is because it is armature play and that is still a hell of a lot of fun.

#89 Posted by Eggimannd (3 posts) -

@sooty said:

People can call LoL less deep all they want, it still has more varied and interesting champions.

I've tried almost all of the DOTA 2 heroes, and they ain't got shit on Ziggs, soz.

I couldn't disagree more. That's actually one of the reasons I like Dota 2 a lot more than LoL. I find the abilities in LoL to be extremely bland and boring (Mostly because of Riot's ridiculous stance on "Anti-fun).

What exactly is special about Ziggs? All of his spells are fairly bland. Can you tell me any spell in LoL that compares to the following ones in Dota 2?:

  • Wisp (Relocate) being able to link to a teamate and teleport anywhere on the map with the teamate.
  • Rubick (Spellsteal) being able to steal the last spell of an enemy and using it as his own.
  • Chen/Enchantress being able to mind control Jungle Creeps and use the abilities of the creeps (That's right. jungle creeps in Dota 2 have abilities such as Tornadoes/Stomp/Net).
  • Puck (Phase Shift) being able to phase from 0.75 to 3.25 seconds making him immune to any incoming damage.
  • Disruptor (Glimpse) being able to send back an enemy to the spot he was at 4 seconds ago.
  • Naga (Song of the Siren) stopping time completely for all near by enemies for a few seconds.
  • Invoker (Invoke) letting you switch between a multitude of spells.
  • And a whole lot lot more.

I'm sorry but 99% of abilities in LoL just are NOT as fun to use as the ones in Dota. They just don't seem to do much of an effect and champions always mostly have the same kind of kit. A gap closer/a nuke/a little snare or little stun. There are the few champions I find riot are going in the right direction in trying to bring something cool to LoL but these are very limited.

#90 Edited by Eggimannd (3 posts) -

@war4ha: You obviously don't play Dota 2 then because I'm sorry to say there's a LOT more fighting going on in a game of Dota 2 than there is in a game of LoL (especially early game).

I have a feeling you don't follow Dota 2 at all.

#91 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@sooty said:

People can call LoL less deep all they want, it still has more varied and interesting champions.

I've tried almost all of the DOTA 2 heroes, and they ain't got shit on Ziggs, soz.

I couldn't disagree more. That's actually one of the reasons I like Dota 2 a lot more than LoL. I find the abilities in LoL to be extremely bland and boring (Mostly because of Riot's ridiculous stance on "Anti-fun).

What exactly is special about Ziggs? All of his spells are fairly bland. Can you tell me any spell in LoL that compares to the following ones in Dota 2?:

  • Wisp (Relocate) being able to link to a teamate and teleport anywhere on the map with the teamate.
  • Rubick (Spellsteal) being able to steal the last spell of an enemy and using it as his own.
  • Chen/Enchantress being able to mind control Jungle Creeps and use the abilities of the creeps (That's right. jungle creeps in Dota 2 have abilities such as Tornadoes/Stomp/Net).
  • Puck (Phase Shift) being able to phase from 0.75 to 3.25 seconds making him immune to any incoming damage.
  • Disruptor (Glimpse) being able to send back an enemy to the spot he was at 4 seconds ago.
  • Naga (Song of the Siren) stopping time completely for all near by enemies for a few seconds.
  • Invoker (Invoke) letting you switch between a multitude of spells.
  • And a whole lot lot more.

I'm sorry but 99% of abilities in LoL just are NOT as fun to use as the ones in Dota. They just don't seem to do much of an effect and champions always mostly have the same kind of kit. A gap closer/a nuke/a little snare or little stun. There are the few champions I find riot are going in the right direction in trying to bring something cool to LoL but these are very limited.

Ziggs is more a personality thing, I find him hilarious. And I have a ton of fun playing Udyr.

Still I will continue to try and like DOTA 2, will hop on in a little while and play some more heroes.

#92 Posted by Eggimannd (3 posts) -

@sooty: The issue is you defined LoL as having more varied and interesting characters when in reality thats false. You say youve played almost all champions on Dota 2 and cant find any that has shit on Ziggs? Damn man I can think of a TON that are immensely more interesting than Ziggs. Got any proof that you got about 100 games played of Dota 2 (about the requires amount of games to have played every hero). Mind sharing your steamid or maybe just your dotabuff.com profile.

#93 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@eggimannd said:

@sooty: The issue is you defined LoL as having more varied and interesting characters when in reality thats false. You say youve played almost all champions on Dota 2 and cant find any that has shit on Ziggs? Damn man I can think of a TON that are immensely more interesting than Ziggs. Got any proof that you got about 100 games played of Dota 2 (about the requires amount of games to have played every hero). Mind sharing your steamid or maybe just your dotabuff.com profile.

Maybe it is false, mostly this is just coming from a personality thing. I don't really find any of the heroes on DOTA 2 endearing right now and that is probably what's killing it for me. For fun factor I haven't found any heroes that match a long range ultimate from Ziggs, but I'm eager to find them. And I do find the slow turn speeds to be really offputting.

#94 Posted by Dizzyhippos (1401 posts) -

Honestly this topic is irrelevant, LoL and dota 2 are only the same game in the broadest strokes. LoL is more about lane matchups and farming, Dota 2 is more about team work and strategy. I know there are alot of similarities like jungle, lanes, creeps, heros/champs and so forth, but there really only skin deep similarities. The meta is so different between the two that I really dont understand why people fight over it. Play what you like, leave the arguing about whats better to the CLG and TSM fanboys :D

#95 Posted by danmcn12 (86 posts) -

@cmblasko said:

Are the same people who are really good at DOTA also really good at LoL? I mean top-tier competitive play. I've been wondering this for awhile.

Yes. A LoL pro would have to spend a longer time due to more mechanics in dota but I'm sure he would be a great player. Maybe they wouldn't be pro level but both would be top 99%.

#96 Posted by danmcn12 (86 posts) -

@cmblasko said:

@oodli said:

@cmblasko: You mean as if the skills from one game convert to the other or that the best from one game are as good as the best from the other?

Skills converting between the two. I would imagine that if LoL truly was a "step backwards" then the people who are really good at DOTA and play it for a living would learn how to play LoL and then make double the money.

That kind of happens in the fighting game community; a handful of really dedicated and talented players are able to place at or near the top across multiple games, but not nearly enough to say that one game takes more skill than the other.

I guarantee dendi has made significantly more money then any non korean LoL player.

#97 Edited by MachoFantastico (4598 posts) -

Haven't played a whole lot of LoL, but I know folks who have and they've said that Dota 2 is a more difficult game to learn never mind master.

#98 Edited by Dizzyhippos (1401 posts) -

@danmcn12 said:

@cmblasko said:

Are the same people who are really good at DOTA also really good at LoL? I mean top-tier competitive play. I've been wondering this for awhile.

Yes. A LoL pro would have to spend a longer time due to more mechanics in dota but I'm sure he would be a great player. Maybe they wouldn't be pro level but both would be top 99%.

A former dota 2 pro that was very very good but not a "great" hyhy retired from dota and switched to LoL and now plays for Singapore sentinels, its not impossible to switch between the two but switching from LoL to Dota is waaaay harder then going from Dota to LoL

#99 Edited by GNCD (17 posts) -

Here is how I see DoTA after switching to LoL.

1.) DoTA games tend to be slower and longer. The slow hero movement with the big map contributes to this.

2.) Last hit and deny for a few minutes. Again this contributes to being a slow paced game. Try spamming your skills and you'll be caught with no mana. This bored me since I actually want to trade blows with the enemy hero. I want to zone out the other guy instead of just last hitting and denying the creeps. LoL gave me this.

3.) Towers are almost useless in DoTA. The first thing I noticed after switching to LoL is those damn towers hurt. Tower diving and escaping with just double digit HP remaining is awesome.

4.) I don't get the destructible trees mechanic in DoTA. It does not add depth IMO. It is a minor feature. Brushes in LoL on the other hand adds more juking mechanics.

5.) Secret shops. Another so called depth. It is a minor feature. This can be overwhelming to new players but once you get used to it then it is an unecessary feature.

6.) Couriers. I never liked that feature. It seems off and is just lazy. This is the reason why I like the free teleport in LoL. Leave your lane to buy stuff and you will be at a disadvantage.

7.) Click and point skills in DoTA just seemed old. I prefer the skill shots in LoL. It takes quick reaction time to be able to dodge them or predict where to activate to be able to hit the enemy. It is a fun mechanic.

8.) Runes and masteries. I like customizing. Aside from the skill shots mechanics, these two are what attracted me to LoL.

As for the topic, a couple of my friends who never played a single game of DoTA or LoL are doing fine in DoTA 2. The way I see it is there are a lot of game mechanics that you need to be familiar in DoTA. They are not necessarily hard to pick up but there is just too many of them that might be intimidating to new players. This gives the illusion of being too hard or too advanced thus being not newbie friendly.

#100 Edited by jayjonesjunior (1087 posts) -

You can't say going from any game to the other is a step backward because they are different, hell, Dota 2 is a pretty Dota, denying and having to eat trees is an original Dota concept that LoL chose to ignore, instead they added some other complexities to the game, all the things you gotta do before you are even in a game, like making a runebook and build.

I'd say it is just a step in another direction.

@sticky_pennies said:

I would think so. You don't lose money in LoL when you die, and you can just hit the "B" key to teleport back home at any time assuming you have a few seconds to yourself. You also can't deny towers or creeps in LoL. In addition, instead of competing over the runes like in Dota 2, players have to deal with buffs given by killing certain creeps in each respective jungle. The replay system in Dota 2 is also really, really good.

LoL is still an alright game, though.

Instead of competing over the runes the players compete over who kills the creeps that give the runes, in the end is all the same.

You may not lose money when you die but the enemy team is earning money, is just as bad and should be avoided.

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