Another new Lightning Returns trailer released.

#1 Posted by Hailinel (23682 posts) -

This trailer apparently debuted at the Japan Expo in Paris a couple of days ago. The big takeaway is that it reveals another returning character in Fang. Also, apparently Hope looks young again?

#2 Posted by Humanity (8715 posts) -

February? Wow that is a ways off. I still don't know what to make of it. I liked Lightning in FF13 but the trailers make this game look rough whenever it's not a cutscene

Online
#3 Posted by Hailinel (23682 posts) -

@humanity said:

February? Wow that is a ways off. I still don't know what to make of it. I liked Lightning in FF13 but the trailers make this game look rough whenever it's not a cutscene

Hence the February release date. They still have plenty of time to clean up the framerate.

#4 Posted by Animasta (14635 posts) -

WHY?

teenage hope was hot D:

Also if Fang is in but not Vanille I will be mad.

#5 Posted by Demoskinos (14520 posts) -

Interesting. Young Hope is easily enough explained by "Yo Time Travel" which I'm guessing might be the same with Fang as well? Whew boy. I might need to replay FFXIII and XIII-2 sometime in December to get ready for this so I can get the story straight in my head again.

#6 Edited by Aegon (5377 posts) -

Interesting. Young Hope is easily enough explained by "Yo Time Travel" which I'm guessing might be the same with Fang as well? Whew boy. I might need to replay FFXIII and XIII-2 sometime in December to get ready for this so I can get the story straight in my head again.

I was thinking of getting those games after XIII-2 seemed to be getting positive feedback on the forums. Would you say they're worth a playthrough?

#7 Posted by Demoskinos (14520 posts) -

@aegon said:

@demoskinos said:

Interesting. Young Hope is easily enough explained by "Yo Time Travel" which I'm guessing might be the same with Fang as well? Whew boy. I might need to replay FFXIII and XIII-2 sometime in December to get ready for this so I can get the story straight in my head again.

I was thinking of getting those games after XIII-2 seemed to be getting positive feedback on the forums. Would you say they're worth a playthrough?

If you're asking specifically for MY opinion. Yeah they are. Both games were my respective GOTY for each year they came out. 2010,2012. I know there are like a thousand people that would argue with me to the bitter end over the fact that they think the games are crap though.

My best advice is this if you go into both games not projecting what you THINK a Final Fantasy game should be and instead just enjoy what they put in front of you you'll most likely have a good time. Now granted, I'm not blind to both of the games faults. XIII has a bit of a slow start and rolls out new combat features slower than I would have liked and XIII-2 has a few technical hiccups but overall I really really like the XIII storyline and series of games.

Again, a bit biased here but if you're asking specifically for my take then that is exactly it.

#8 Posted by Aegon (5377 posts) -

@demoskinos: A lot of people complain that XIII's story is hard to understand. Is there a way to go through that game without being really confused?

#9 Edited by Demoskinos (14520 posts) -

@aegon: I don't think the story is hard to understand if you take time to actually understand the jargon there is a lot of C'ieth, L'cie , Fal'cie talk being thrown around. So very in fiction heavy jargon talk at times and if you don't understand the jargon you might get a bit lost. There is however a Digital Journal/Encyclopedia thing that the game has that you can access from the menu to understand all the jargon and whatnot. You also unlock synopsis journal entries for each chapter you beat so you can go back and brush up on the major points of the previous chapter if you hadn't touched the game in a day or two.

I think XIII-2 even with all its time travel nonsense isn't that hard to follow if you are pretty familiar with the events of XIII. The end of XIII-2 starts to delve into more confusing concepts but overall as I said if you actually bother to understand the jargon they are throwing around and pay attention during cut-scenes you should be able to follow the overarching plot just fine even if you don't understand some of the subtleties in it.

#10 Posted by Animasta (14635 posts) -

@aegon said:

@demoskinos said:

Interesting. Young Hope is easily enough explained by "Yo Time Travel" which I'm guessing might be the same with Fang as well? Whew boy. I might need to replay FFXIII and XIII-2 sometime in December to get ready for this so I can get the story straight in my head again.

I was thinking of getting those games after XIII-2 seemed to be getting positive feedback on the forums. Would you say they're worth a playthrough?

Play 13, but if there comes a time where it becomes to sloggy for you, than just skip it and go to 13-2. There's something you can read to catch up on what you missed.

I don't think 13 is very good, but I do think 13-2 is fantastic

#11 Edited by Flappy (2113 posts) -

@aegon: Don't think too much and focus solely on what you're learning through the cutscenes and such. The Codex (or whatever the encyclopedia thing is called) should be treated like Pandora's Box. You may think that you want to learn more about the world that FFXIII takes place in, but once you start digging, you're filling your head with a bunch of craziness that isn't required to enjoy XIII-2.

Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

#12 Posted by StarvingGamer (7918 posts) -

@aegon said:

@demoskinos: A lot of people complain that XIII's story is hard to understand. Is there a way to go through that game without being really confused?

It's actually fairly straightforward if you just pay attention. The only part that might confuse you is the fact that C'ieth, Fal'cie, and L'cie sound very similar. Just remember that so when the game is teaching you what those terms mean, you can keep them straight in your head. My fiance didn't read the codex once and she had no problems understanding exactly what was going on in the game.

But yes, go, play. FFXIII and XIII-2 have one of the best RPG battle-systems.

#13 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

The return of more bad characters. Great.

#14 Posted by Animasta (14635 posts) -

@sooty said:

The return of more bad characters. Great.

hope was awesome in 13-2.

I will fight anyone on this

#15 Posted by Jay_Ray (1069 posts) -

I want to play XIII-2 but just haven't even bothered to put it in my PS3. I think I just remember how much time I put into XIII and don't want to try to play XIII-2 unless I know I have the time.

#16 Posted by Hunter5024 (5508 posts) -

What the hell is even going on with this story? Like how can Fang possibly be there, with young Hope, at the end of the world? Does this game have time travel too? I hope they don't leave me with a million questions like this until the end of the game like they did in 13-2.

#17 Posted by Ezakael (910 posts) -

I enjoyed Xlll enough but Xlll-2 didn't interest me in the slightest, which seems to be the exact opposite of most people. I've just never been into time travel stories that much I guess. Looks like the next new singleplayer Final Fantasy that I'll play will be either XV.

#18 Posted by Flappy (2113 posts) -

What the hell is even going on with this story? Like how can Fang possibly be there, with young Hope, at the end of the world? Does this game have time travel too? I hope they don't leave me with a million questions like this until the end of the game like they did in 13-2.

If I learned anything from playing XIII-2, it's that the universe/everything is totally fucked. I'm sure Hope/another npc will be sharing knowledge as Lightning progresses in the game.

#19 Posted by Animasta (14635 posts) -

What the hell is even going on with this story? Like how can Fang possibly be there, with young Hope, at the end of the world? Does this game have time travel too? I hope they don't leave me with a million questions like this until the end of the game like they did in 13-2.

I'm pretty sure fang was stuck in the crystal and in academia 700af she's officially out.

and there's some weird timey wimey bullshit in this, so I don't know why everyone is still alive

#20 Posted by shinjin977 (743 posts) -

Square need a new writer really badly. It always surprise me how much japanese games seems to lack in the story department. Considering we also come out with some of the more inspiring stuff like Nier and Xenogear. That is FF13 series biggest downfall. Even with everything as it is with a good story it would have been loved.

#21 Edited by Animasta (14635 posts) -

@shinjin977: 13-2 had one of the better stories out of any FF game imo, so meh.

I mean, 13-2 takes some pretty obvious shit from Nier (vocals on most of the soundtrack, a dying world 700af).

#22 Posted by Flappy (2113 posts) -

@animasta: To be honest, if more games learned from Nier, they'd be a bit better off. Nier isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it's chock full of great ideas.

#23 Posted by Animasta (14635 posts) -

@flappy said:

@animasta: To be honest, if more games learned from Nier, they'd be a bit better off. Nier isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it's chock full of great ideas.

I am very vocal about my love of Nier (best game ever yo) so yes! I agree 120%

#24 Edited by Demoskinos (14520 posts) -

@shinjin977: I think the story is fine. What's changed is JRPG's dont have the mainstream appeal that they had in the PSOne Days. Its ever growing into a niche genre.

#25 Posted by Hailinel (23682 posts) -

@shinjin977: I think the story is fine. What's changed is JRPG's dont have the mainstream appeal that they had in the PSOne Days. Its ever growing into a niche genre.

And it's frankly always been niche in the west, Final Fantasy aside.

#26 Posted by shinjin977 (743 posts) -

@shinjin977: I think the story is fine. What's changed is JRPG's dont have the mainstream appeal that they had in the PSOne Days. Its ever growing into a niche genre.

I will agree with that. The main reason being player base grew up but the genre refused to. I mean Baba (Tales of games head Director) is still saying they are making Tales of games for teens and kid. That is fine but when I look at stuff like Nier, SMT Noctune and Xenogear, I see so much potential there. Untapped and unpolished those types of writing with Square budget would get JRPG right back into the big boy's league.

Look at the first half of Tales of Vesperia, there a dark main character that really resonate with people. It was dark, he was a vigilante, he killed people he deemed evil but it was understandable and relate-able. Then they just turn him into a typical shonen hero, instead of exploring the consequences of those actions or should he continue to do it.

So much potential drag down by old thinking old men of the share holder board. I have seen some really good ideas, shot down because "Kids don't want that, they want to save a cute girl and be a hero." These types of thinking will drown japan gaming industry. If even FF15 continue with this fashion, I weep for my much loved genre.

#27 Posted by Hailinel (23682 posts) -

@demoskinos said:

@shinjin977: I think the story is fine. What's changed is JRPG's dont have the mainstream appeal that they had in the PSOne Days. Its ever growing into a niche genre.

I will agree with that. The main reason being player base grew up but the genre refused to. I mean Baba (Tales of games head Director) is still saying they are making Tales of games for teens and kid. That is fine but when I look at stuff like Nier, SMT Noctune and Xenogear, I see so much potential there. Untapped and unpolished those types of writing with Square budget would get JRPG right back into the big boy's league.

Look at the first half of Tales of Vesperia, there a dark main character that really resonate with people. It was dark, he was a vigilante, he killed people he deemed evil but it was understandable and relate-able. Then they just turn him into a typical shonen hero, instead of exploring the consequences of those actions or should he continue to do it.

So much potential drag down by old thinking old men of the share holder board. I have seen some really good ideas, shot down because "Kids don't want that, they want to save a cute girl and be a hero." These types of thinking will drown japan gaming industry. If even FF15 continue with this fashion, I weep for my much loved genre.

That's just being dismissive. RPGs are made for a wide variety of audiences. Tales skews younger. SMT skews toward the older teen/adult crowd. Final Fantasy ranges across the board. That's just how these games are made and who they're targeted at, there's nothing wrong with it, and there's nothing sinister about the decision making that lead to these games being made. You'd do better to define what sort of "mature game for mature gamers" you actually want.

#28 Posted by Brackynews (4039 posts) -

@sooty said:

The return of more bad characters. Great.

More incentives for Fang cosplay. Great!! :D

#29 Edited by shinjin977 (743 posts) -

@hailinel: I'm actually not for mature games but a coherent ones. I love Ni no kuni and SMT alike. When we look at lets say Kingdom Hearts story compare to Ni no kuni, that is what I have problem with.

Ni no Kuni was a real simple story about a boy saving his mother and saving the world in the process. It also happen to be kind of hammy but that is fine, that is just perception. Kingdom hearts is actually pretty dark. Dealing with the darkness in people's hearts and its all consuming power. It tells a story about how anyone can succumb to their dark desire but it was told in such a way that only the most hardcore of fans can retell the story and not confuse themselves.

The deal with Tales of Vesperia was that it setup this real intriguing plot about vigilantism and then completely dismiss it. Without a second thought and never pay it any mind again. I mean the dude acted as a judge and executor, he killed 2 people.

The last series that tell a good story in a coherent way was Shadow hearts series. I was really sad when they went under.

If the story teller do not make an effort to tell a coherent, well-pace tales, eventually no one will listen and I feel people are already tuning out. The genre wont die tho, it cant but rpg fans might have to go through a genre crash like fighter's fan went through a while back.

#30 Posted by zels (204 posts) -

@shinjin977: I think the story is fine. What's changed is JRPG's dont have the mainstream appeal that they had in the PSOne Days. Its ever growing into a niche genre.

The story of 13 was a horrible mess - the way it was presented, the characters' motivations, the dialogue and the overall logic were all over the place.

#31 Posted by SilentPredator (122 posts) -

I think I'm in the minority, but I really liked Lightning as a character in 13. Her take-charge attitude was a nice contrast to everyone else wallowing in self-pity at the beginning of the game. If she wasn't in 13, I probably wouldn't have liked it at all. I'll probably just jump right into this game without having played 13-2, which I have almost no interest in as she wasn't a main character.

Online
#32 Posted by stubbleman (306 posts) -

It was at about the point I was halfway through this trailer that I wondered to myself if I need to just stop watching these promotional materials. Sometimes these publishers don't know when enough's enough, and sometimes I don't either. I'd hate to know about all the cool parts before I've even played it or something.

#33 Edited by Animasta (14635 posts) -

I think I'm in the minority, but I really liked Lightning as a character in 13. Her take-charge attitude was a nice contrast to everyone else wallowing in self-pity at the beginning of the game. If she wasn't in 13, I probably wouldn't have liked it at all. I'll probably just jump right into this game without having played 13-2, which I have almost no interest in as she wasn't a main character.

you kinda have to play 13-2.

She's a main character, though, no matter that you don't play as her; she's way more important than the playable characters.

#34 Posted by SilentPredator (122 posts) -

@animasta said:

...no matter that you don't play as her...

But as the only character I actually don't hate or feel apathetic towards, it's kind of ALL that matters to me.

Online
#35 Posted by Humanity (8715 posts) -

@zels said:

@demoskinos said:

@shinjin977: I think the story is fine. What's changed is JRPG's dont have the mainstream appeal that they had in the PSOne Days. Its ever growing into a niche genre.

The story of 13 was a horrible mess - the way it was presented, the characters' motivations, the dialogue and the overall logic were all over the place.

I don't remember much of it now, but when I played the game I thought it was pretty straightforward once you read up on what is what in the codex. The way you had the team split up in the beginning, each unveiling a little piece of the grand plot was also a nice touch. Except fuck that first Odin fight.

Online
#36 Posted by Animasta (14635 posts) -

@animasta said:

...no matter that you don't play as her...

But as the only character I actually don't hate or feel apathetic towards, it's kind of ALL that matters to me.

it's really not though? I mean the whole game is about what the hell lightning is up to and you get plenty of her. That's also like saying that Vaan is the main character of FF12; he's the character that you control in cities and what not, but he is in no way important.

Serah is also much much better in this game. I mean, the only reason Serah was a crappy character in the first one was because... she was a damsel in distress. That was her thing. She was literally stuck in crystal for 95% of that game. Here she's proactive, has a personality that is also not "I love my sister, snow LOVE". Noah... well. He's generic, but he's decent enough (he was never as annoying as Vanille, Snow or Hope was).

I mean, 13-2 also has a pretty long DLC mission as Lightning that explains the most important parts of what SHE was doing.

Also, the antagonist in 13-2 is, bar none, the best final fantasy antagonist in recent memory.

#37 Posted by shinjin977 (743 posts) -

@animasta said:

Also, the antagonist in 13-2 is, bar none, the best final fantasy antagonist in recent memory.

I think Vayne (FFXII) was pretty good.

#38 Posted by connerthekewlkid (1799 posts) -

@animasta said:

Also, the antagonist in 13-2 is, bar none, the best final fantasy antagonist in recent memory.

I think Vayne (FFXII) was pretty good.

But even then Vayne didn't even really do much until the very end and the Judges were the villains for most of the game.

#39 Edited by zels (204 posts) -

@humanity said:

@zels said:

@demoskinos said:

@shinjin977: I think the story is fine. What's changed is JRPG's dont have the mainstream appeal that they had in the PSOne Days. Its ever growing into a niche genre.

The story of 13 was a horrible mess - the way it was presented, the characters' motivations, the dialogue and the overall logic were all over the place.

I don't remember much of it now, but when I played the game I thought it was pretty straightforward once you read up on what is what in the codex. The way you had the team split up in the beginning, each unveiling a little piece of the grand plot was also a nice touch. Except fuck that first Odin fight.

Isn't that a significant part of the problem?

#40 Posted by Animasta (14635 posts) -

@animasta said:

Also, the antagonist in 13-2 is, bar none, the best final fantasy antagonist in recent memory.

I think Vayne (FFXII) was pretty good.

vayne was decent but he was really just a corrupt politican that hated the gods.

#41 Posted by Hailinel (23682 posts) -

@shinjin977 said:

@animasta said:

Also, the antagonist in 13-2 is, bar none, the best final fantasy antagonist in recent memory.

I think Vayne (FFXII) was pretty good.

But even then Vayne didn't even really do much until the very end and the Judges were the villains for most of the game.

Yeah. In FFXIII-2, Caius is both master manipulator behind the scenes, and also actively fucking with Serah and Noel the whole time.

#42 Posted by Hailinel (23682 posts) -

@zels said:

@humanity said:

@zels said:

@demoskinos said:

@shinjin977: I think the story is fine. What's changed is JRPG's dont have the mainstream appeal that they had in the PSOne Days. Its ever growing into a niche genre.

The story of 13 was a horrible mess - the way it was presented, the characters' motivations, the dialogue and the overall logic were all over the place.

I don't remember much of it now, but when I played the game I thought it was pretty straightforward once you read up on what is what in the codex. The way you had the team split up in the beginning, each unveiling a little piece of the grand plot was also a nice touch. Except fuck that first Odin fight.

Isn't that a significant part of the problem?

I found it fairly straight-forward without need of the codex, so...?

#43 Edited by AuthenticM (3695 posts) -

This game's story looks bonkers. I hope the gameplay is great. That's the only thing that made me buy and beat the first two games; the gameplay was so great that I was able to brush off their terrible stories and characters.

He was ridiculous and emo and kept spouting terrible pretentious bullshit dialogue. I'm interested in knowing what you like of him because holy shit did I NOT like the dude when I played the game, so much that anyone claiming they like him leaves me scratching my head.

#44 Posted by Animasta (14635 posts) -

This game's story looks bonkers. I hope the gameplay is great. That's the only thing that made me buy and beat the first two games; the gameplay was so great that I was able to brush off their terrible stories and characters.

He was ridiculous and emo and kept spouting terrible pretentious bullshit dialogue. I'm interested in knowing what you like of him because holy shit did I NOT like the dude when I played the game, so much that anyone claiming they like him leaves me scratching my head.

Because he had a motivation that wasn't just "fuck all of the world" and was actively involved in the plot. Which, you know, is kind of a low bar.

Also that pretentious bullshit dialogue was THE BEST.

(also because of liam o'brian, if I'm being honest)

#45 Posted by Slag (3913 posts) -

Sweet! I liked Fang the best from 13. I felt like we barely scratched the surface of her character/past. I'd love for her to get some major development.

Now if if only there were more Sazh as well. After chapter 9 of Xiii he became criminally underused.

#46 Edited by Demoskinos (14520 posts) -

@shinjin977: @humanity: @hailinel: @zels: Tagging a whole bunch of people for this one!

*cracks knuckles* Sorry this is going to be a loooong one folks so if you don't read it all I don't blame you.

So here is the thing I think Final Fantasy XIII and its follow up both are fantastic modern JRPG games. Now I can't "make" anyone like them but also I feel that a number of people unfairly judged XIII before they even played it.

Thing is they weren't trying to make what basically amounts to the classic Final Fantasy experience. Big Over world map, towns, side distractions ect.... What they WERE trying to make was a really cool fast paced battle system and a very tightly focused narrative. Its a game that wanted to keep the pacing going forward constantly. There were never really any reasons to stop and grind. The game was always pushing your forward.

Now yes... to its determent the areas up until Chapter 11 were pretty damn linear. Thing is I don't think the linearity was the problem here what WAS the problem is that you had a huge map clearly showing you as much and level design that didn't obfuscate this fact enough to make you feel like you weren't just walking down a hallway. Plenty of games opt for a very linear focus and I don't think there is anything wrong with that it lets the developers control the pacing and control the narrative in ways that you can't really do with bigger open games. Now...speaking of the story..... ** WARNING TO ANYONE WHO HASN'T FINISHED XIII or XIII-2 SPOILERS ABOUND FROM HERE ON OUT**

First off regarding the story I think there is a specific melodramatic angle that tends to permeate a lot of narratives written by eastern writers. Its very present in a lot of anime and subsequently a lot of japanese video games because yes a good portion of these games ARE targeting Teenagers. I don't think this instantly makes these stories bad its just a different style of storytelling. I think even aimed at a teenage audience Final Fantasy XIII and XIII-2's stories actually handle the character arcs specifically in XIII pretty well. First off lets examine two of the most universally reviled characters in XIII Hope and Vanille. Its pretty easy to really be irritated by these characters. Hope is a very overly emotionally wrought 14 year old and Vanille is a overly plucky and enthusiastic to the point of nausea. If these characters DIDNT have a very well explained and developed arc I would be on board with them being badly written.

Both Hope and Vanille I find to be just the opposite in the long run and in fact act pretty realistically regarding their situations. Hope had his mother suddenly snatched away from him in a flash of a few seconds amongst a chaotic scene that left him absolutely no time to process what had just happened. His mother died he couldn't cope with that. Being that he couldn't emotionally cope with it internally he wanted a conduit for his hatred, confusion and sorrow and that conduit was Snow. Eventually after much anger and even Snow nearly sacrificing his life to save Hope he finally deals with his demons. Its at this point that Hope starts to transform from a young and scared adolescent to a confident young man who is ready to fight to save Cocoon.

Vanille much in the same way as Hope is distraught. She is sure that she was the catalyst for both Sera and Dajh being turned into crystal and this is eating her away inside. Vanille unlike hope doesn't show her sorrow so visibly on the outside she internalizes it and forces herself to put on smile. She is over compensating for the real grief she feels. Again and you could possibly argue way to conveniently during the story she gets split up and is following Sazh around. This of course all culminates in her finally breaking and in an emotional outpouring begs Sazh to kill her as she feels that this would somehow make things "even". Of course Sazh being a deeply compassionate person can't and doesn't want this and ends up forgiving Vanille even if he is a bit upset that she wasn't immediately more forthcoming about it.

Vanille then finally rid of her grief is able to focus on the real task at hand saving cocoon and ends up being along with Fang the trump card that saves countless lives sacrificing herself along with fang to make a giant crystal pillar that holds Cocoon in the sky. If anything I guess you could argue that its a bit to convenient that all of the characters have such an obvious turn of heart that results in the fragmented groups of 2 and 3 people finally all agreeing to work together to stop the big bad. Unlike a lot of JRPG's though its interesting that they actually try to show some obvious tension and dissension within the protagonists. In quite a few RPG's characters end up joining the party for pretty shallow reasons dropping everything they were previously doing to go on a massive journey they don't even know if they are going to come back from. With Final Fantasy XIII I think they at least try to firmly establish each character coming to that reasoning even if by the end of the game most of the character arcs finally coming to a head and resolving are sort of predictable.

Now, I will get on board with the characters of Serah and Noel in FFXIII-2 being a bit more thin and transparent than the characters in XIII. What really makes XIII-2 special to me is Caius Ballad. I say this will all sincerity I think Ciaus is one of if not THE BEST Final Fantasy antagonist of all time. Notice I didn't say villain because Ciaus isn't a villain. He is just a very very very selfish man. So much so he is willing to sacrifice destroying the timeline to save Yeul the woman he has to watch die over and over and over. He is such a well written antagonist that at least for me went a long way to counter any parts with Serah and Noel that weren't all that great. Although Noel ends up being a pretty interesting part of Ciaus' story in the end. Also the ending to Final Fantasy XIII-2 is one of the most dark and ominous notes I've ever seen a Final Fantasy game end on. It seems like the world is saved. Ciaus is defeated and everything is fine until..... Serah suddenly dies and then the timeline starts to collapse harking the end of not just the world but the entire timeline.... a.k.a enter Lightning to try to save everything in the next game.

I could most likely write another couple hundred (easily) words about the specific reasoning's why I enjoy the game so much but safe to say I really enjoyed the hundreds of hours between both games I put into them but you most likely don't want to read that and... I wanna go play some Tekken. =p

#47 Edited by TruthTellah (8414 posts) -

From how I understand it, Lightning is now a samurai Jesus who travels through time and saves sinners from Satan's random encounters.

Well, they certainly have my attention.

http://fast1.onesite.com/na.square-enix.com/user/146468749/large/7f6281e1b80f128f73321c3a93098b49.jpg

Paradigm Shift! Paradigm Shift! Amen!

#48 Edited by Demoskinos (14520 posts) -

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