This is exactly why I respect Dave's opinions far more than the actual editorial staff.

" @ArbitraryWater: You are correct that I'm picking on Mass Effect 2 unfairly. I'm only projecting so hard because it's made by BioWare. I think it's a well-crafted game that will appeal to the majority of people. I certainly understand why many people pick it as the game of the year. I just happen to like the book better than the movie. "

" @Laketown said:

" @Doctorchimp said:

" @Ramboknife said:

" In my opinion, the combat is only boring in ME2 if you let it be...you can choose different classes and combine all of the special abilities to make some pretty cool combos and whatnot.  "

Yeah I have to agree with you, when Brad was saying how the game is pretty much a shooter now and he only played as Soldier I rolled my eyes and sighed "oh Brad".  An adept on insanity is amazing fun.  I still have to agree with Dave though, the CRPG genre is dead as people are trying to push their games more and more into the mainstream, judging from the Dragon Age 2 they have been showing that looks like it's going the hack and slash route too. But we'll wait and see. "

I've never played soldier but I don't think the other classes play as differently as you think. "

They most certainly do.  The Vanguard played properly plays like nothing else in the game, or any other shooter I've every played. "

" This sounds like an old man ranting about the kids these days.
 
I agree with the sentiment that the world needs more great CRPGs because I loved Dragon Age and I want more.  However I'm far too pluralist when it comes to gaming to not appreciate both.  But I have to ask at what point to CRPG's (like MMOs) just become work.  I play far too many games to feel frustrated at sitting down and figuring out how to get past this one part in this one game.
 
I miss the RPG elements that were present in ME1 but I understand the motives and I think Dave does as well.  I just happened to really enjoy the gameplay in Mass Effect 2 and so did...pretty much everyone else that played it.
 
I think the part that's legitimately frustrating is that in the name of CRPGs the parts that make Mass Effect (2) unique have been ignored or diminished.  Namely the characters, the world, etc wrapped in what is at least a competent 3rd person shooter with very light RPG elements.  I don't subscribe to the idea that games are obgliated to be a certain way to be good.  This is why I could care less that Dragon Age (as long as its good) may be moving away from the CRPG-ness of the original.  I guess I'm kinda disappointed Dave was as crotchety as he is about games but I guess that's why he's not a reviewer :) "

good blog post, thanks snide for expanding upon your comments in TNT, always good to get a fresh look at things.

LOVED Planescape, liked Baldur's Gate, Didn't care for Dragon Age, liked ME2 very much.
So, it depends on the universe and the story for me. Planescape- amazing, Dragon Age- poor, Baldur's Gate- meh, ME2- good. If not very good.
Well.. the main story in ME2 kinda sucked. But the character missions were really good, and the dialogue was excellent.

" Also, if you think  that the characters, world, or story in the Mass Effect games are at all unique, I'd suggest watching and reading some Sci-Fi. "

" Have played every one one of these games you mention, most to completion (obviously have not played TWII yet, but I didn't like the first one). Only Drakensang fits in the style of RPG I'm discussing and it was a ho-hum clone of Neverwinter Nights. The rest of them are mostly focused on action and very limited upgrade mechanics. Neverwinter Nights 2 is an amazing game, but fairly old at this point and is basically what I'm calling out to in this post. "

" @RockyRaccoon37 said:

" Also, if you think  that the characters, world, or story in the Mass Effect games are at all unique, I'd suggest watching and reading some Sci-Fi. "

By that logic, absolutely no story whatsoever could be unique except for something absurdly stupid. It's not a setting that makes for uniqueness, but the elements that differentiates the aspects that define the story from the archetypes that normally describe the genre. "

I totally agree with you, Snide, as a whole, but I wouldn't consider Dragon Age having a rewarding combat system. The combat is more or less just MMO-style with a pause and party function. Without any type of rule set or actually useful fight log, every encounter just ended up feeling like I was lucking my way through it without any sort of strategic thinking other than mashing the right items at the right time and on occasions pause because a mob suddenly decided to do something random without any logic to it at all.

Great blog, i agree with your comments on ME2. Though, i liked the adventurous discovery in the game, the combat just hit the breaks on that and felt more like an obligation, a chore, to get to the points i wanted to get to. I'm also not fond of obligatory design...Mass Effect doesn't need a skill tree because it just doesn't matter. Just like the Elder Scrolls series doesn't need combat skill progression, it just does not matter within the design of the game.
 
For me,however, it's the exploration in RPGs that i like. not really the combat. I wasn't too far into Icewind Dale before i realized i just couldn't handle that games realtime combat and defeating trolls was a matter of doing a Benny Hill run around a statue,turn, attack, repeat. I just can't commit that kind of time to games anymore. 
 
So for me, the Elder Scrolls games are my favorite as they are all about exploration. I may try and go back to finish the CRPGs that i own but haven't finished (Icewind Dale) or event the ones i own and haven't even started (Baldurs Gate 2, Icewind Dale 2, Planescape: Torment) but i just don't see myself having the time these days to get into them.

" @RockyRaccoon37 said:

" Also, if you think  that the characters, world, or story in the Mass Effect games are at all unique, I'd suggest watching and reading some Sci-Fi. "

By that logic, absolutely no story whatsoever could be unique except for something absurdly stupid. It's not a setting that makes for uniqueness, but the elements that differentiates the aspects that define the story from the archetypes that normally describe the genre. "

While I don't have much love for CRPGs, I can defintively see a need for more complex combat in Mass Effect. I think one of the biggest issues with the game is simply that it forces you far to early, i.e. at the very start of the game, to pick a character class. Different classes play quite differently, but you never ever are going to experience any of that on a regular single play through. A scheme where the choice is delayed to much later in the game and doesn't block you from all the abilities from another class, like say Gothic 2, could make combat a good bit more interesting.
 
More focus on tactics would also be very welcome, Full Spectrum Warrior had pretty nice tactical combat in a third person shooter view, Mass Effects kind of goes into that direction, but basically stops with the abilities to tell your teammates where to go and what to target, Full Spectrum Warrior had quite a few more options to do, which made things more interesting.
 
Last not least Mass Effect would also be a perfect game to throw in some stealth, you have all that great cast of characters, but don't really do much with any of their special abilities. Your whole team is basically a waste, as most of it just goes completly unused over the course of the game.
 
In the end I wouldn't want to turn Mass Effect into either a micro management orgy or filled with endless amounts of useless loot, but there is definitively a lot of room in the game for more tactical or simply more interesting combat.

" @Laketown:  Name one other game that has a class with a power anything like the Vanguard's charge power. "

" Great blog, i agree with your comments on ME2. Though, i liked the adventurous discovery in the game, the combat just hit the breaks on that and felt more like an obligation, a chore, to get to the points i wanted to get to. I'm also not fond of obligatory design...Mass Effect doesn't need a skill tree because it just doesn't matter. Just like the Elder Scrolls series doesn't need combat skill progression, it just does not matter within the design of the game. For me,however, it's the exploration in RPGs that i like. not really the combat. I wasn't too far into Icewind Dale before i realized i just couldn't handle that games realtime combat and defeating trolls was a matter of doing a Benny Hill run around a statue,turn, attack, repeat. I just can't commit that kind of time to games anymore.  So for me, the Elder Scrolls games are my favorite as they are all about exploration. I may try and go back to finish the CRPGs that i own but haven't finished (Icewind Dale) or event the ones i own and haven't even started (Baldurs Gate 2, Icewind Dale 2, Planescape: Torment) but i just don't see myself having the time these days to get into them. "

I'm just waiting for a WRPG to be released on a console with Motion Controls. Oh yeah, that's the ticket.

Great post, Dave. Really enjoyed it, despite actually not being a fan of the games you miss. You make a string of well-argued points.

" why the fuck does Dave even have to justify himself for not liking a game "

" @Laketown: @Hailinel: Again, uniqueness doesn't mean that a story has never had the same basic idea as the story that is deemed unique, but it means that the element of the story strays in a different direction than what has been done before. Reapers, Rachni, Salarians, Krogans... all of these races have different representations in different Sci-fi stories, but there are variations to these archetypes in Mass Effect that make them unique. Being unique doesn't mean that it has to be drastically different. It just means it has to be different. "

I'd rather read a Mass Effect book than play a Mass Effect game. Then again, if it involved having to browse the Sci-Fi-rotica section at a book store... no thanks

First off, Mass Effect 2 is a good game. That said, I am sad to see the old RPG genre go away. I am a gamer of the younger generation and I'm feeling like I'm missing out on all these great games. The only game I have played that are like this is Dragon Age: Origins and I absolutely loved it. The second you saw your character enter battle you had to come up with a strategy, find the mage that dealt a ton of damage, get the mobs to focus their attacks on your "tank" which in my case was Alistair, move out off area of effect spells and combine certain spells with each other etc. 
 
I never played the first Mass Effect so I did not know what to expect when I jumped into ME2. I had heard things as, RPG with shooting mechanics, different classes and no dice rolls when shooting. While all of these things might be true I can't look at it as an RPG after having played Dragon Age and The Witcher. There was no tactical and hard combat, no customization and no loot. It was pretty much a third-person shooter with some RPG elements and dialog options. 
 
I want more games like Dragon Age. Deep RPG elements, class based, the full package. I hope I am speaking for more than myself when I am saying that the younger generation of gamers also want to experience more games like that without having to reach into the back catalog. 

" I asked what specifically was unique.  This is just dancing around the question.  I haven't played Mass Effect 2, but as far as I can tell, it's just a story set in a Star Trek-style universe where you're running around and recruiting a team (much like recruiting characters and factions in Dragon Age) to complete a specific mission (again, like taking down the Archdemon in Dragon Age, which is suicide depending how you go about it). "

" People are way to defensive about ME2.  I'm really starting to hate ME2, not because I don't like the game but because of the ridiculous fanboys attacking people for not calling it the best game ever. "

The combat in Mass Effect 2 is boring. It's is a shooter more than an RPG. That's OK, I like shooters and I certainly like STALKER and BioShock, so what's the deal? Well, I also think Mass Effect 2 is a shitty, uncomplicated, floaty shooter with fairly meaningless skill upgrades that they are for the most part pre-set and easy to choose. Fuck yeah I want better shields. Fuck yeah I want better X attack. The actual combat involves me moving from set-piece to set-piece Gears of War style. See those barricades? Oh. I guess a fight is about to happen, I better go hide behind this wall where I'm suddenly impenetrable from anything. Because of the meatiness of the health and shields in these types of games, you largely die because of a lack of patience (trying to kill them too fast) vs. making bad decisions in strategy.

It's nice to see my favourite Giant Bomber telling everyone what's what in the world of PC games and CRPGs.

And cookass, someone in Giant Bomb who loved the Void. We need you, Mike, and Vinny to Quick Look that, King's Bounty, and DCS: A-10C for your fans' viewing pleasure.

You're dead on Dave!

So what was unique about Mass Effect 2's story? "

Counterspells. That's a word you don't hear much, if at all, these days.

The thing the annoys me the most is that all the decisions done on DA 2 are not due to sales.  DA:O outsold ME2.  Yes its on one more platform, but a fantasy setting, party based RPG sold extremely well.  All the changes for DA 2 started before DA:O was even out the door.

I don't know.

To me, the old CRPGs were less about true strategy / tactics and more about "breaking the game" (twinking), especially in the DnD 2.0 to 3.5 based games. Roll a wizard, stack everything in Int, have fun picking your bonus spells (Colour Spray, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, 20 square radius Fireball) and hit the major Rest button after every encounter to get the 8 hours needed to prepare and re-memorise your spells. Man, casters were such dicks before 4.0.

On the other hand, boiling things down to the lowest common denominator sacrifices a lot of depth in the combat system.

The only thing I do know is that people like different things in games, and that they deserve to be catered to, just like everyone else.

It amazes me that you don't write for your own sites even though you jumped around your general thesis a bit and it ended off track (although a high note), This was very well written and I can't wait to hop into DA after this.

This thread has a weird disonance in it, I'll try to explain. 
 
I'm half and half on your opinion. While I also grew up playing a lot of old ass CRPGS, I kinda just adapted with the times, and as much as it sucks, that's progress. What  I find weird about the thread is your hierarchy on Giantbomb. It's not that you're staff persay. It's because you're Dave. Not to infer that's a slant, because I really think you're a swell guy, but for those of us who've been around for a while, we're aware of your penchant for nostalgia for old PC games. I know that comes being a PC gamer and seeing development, I was there too. However, I wonder how well this thread would have gone down if say, a random user posted it. 
 
I imagine if a somewhat established user said it, like Sweep, or Hamz. I bet it would be different than if Billy no name stated the following points, and for that, I'm finding everyone else's answers to be somewhat...skewed. Not to imply anything, I just think because it's "Fun Dave" that stated this exceptionally well reasoned argument (Even if I disagree with one or two things) that the response is largely people agreeing to the most part. 
 
I think, like you said, that the age of CRPG lovers is coming to an end. Not because they're not good, because they're still totally radical. But imagine if...someone who was born in the early 90's, or even a young teenager tried to play them now. (Before people pick up on me, I'm not saying "Oh Kids are dumb", please). I just believe that their age has gone simply because they've aged, even within their own established style (There's a word I'm thinking of here, forgive me for sounding like an oaf). By todays standards, they're just TOO archaic. Because, for the most part, they run on D&D rules, they're very obtuse to get into for someone who doesn't already know about them. What I refer to by "Their own style/genre" is the way that D&D style games work, as I'm sure you know. I'll elucidate with an anecdote of my own from recently. 
 
I tried to play Neverwinter Nights 2 recently. It runs on the 3.5 D&D rules, modified for a videogame. Even to someone who's used to them, the change in the ruleset left me very frustrated and not necessarily betrayed, that would be a crass statement. They've just evolved not necessarily "Forward", but more "Sideways". I just think things have become a lot more streamlined in modern PC RPGS, that for someone who isn't already invested, it's an almost impenetrable wall. Comparing Dragon Age to NWN even. I'd obviously pick a higher grade material weapon, because it's obvious that it's better. But trying to explain to my girlfriend when we were playing NWN2 the difference in comparable outcomes between a 2D5 and a 3D4 was as though I was speaking a language she didn't understand. 
 
This turned into quite an essay actually, I apologise for the length, I beileve I've rambled on long enough. I hope you can disseminate my points from this messy post. 
 
All the best, Dave. 
 
Make way evil! I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!     

"The only thing I do know is that people like different things in games, and that they deserve to be catered to, just like everyone else. "

" People are way to defensive about ME2.  I'm really starting to hate ME2, not because I don't like the game but because of the ridiculous fanboys attacking people for not calling it the best game ever. "

TLDR :) 
 
Just kidding that was a great read. I for one like the Hybrid of shooter/RPG but that doesn't mean everyone has to.

" @snide:  You are wrong ... Mass Effect was always meant to be an hybrid , it is  an excelent game and I say that the people that complain that in this games you dont use your brains are liars , you actually have to think faster to adjust to the evolving situation , so you dont like just say so , dont say that the game is bad because you dont like the way it plays , you RPGelitist are indeed a bad thing and a hindrance to new types of gameplays , HYBRIDS!!!!!! Also to the loot maniacs , there is loot in ME 2 in form of blue prints and new weapon models , and not every RPG must have 3000 billions things to grab were only 10 are good and the rest is garbage , you already have your games like that leave the rest of us with the hybrids "

*shrug*
Born in '87 and I fucking love Infinity Engine games. Still boot up Baldur's Gate 2 every now and then.
To me, the whole daily casts of spells and preparing is awesome. It adds so much strategy to what otherwise tends to be a "spam spell X" like in DA:O.
Protection from Evil and casting Gate, Spell Triggers containing Doom and a selection of throw spell on yer Cleric/Mage multi-class...

There's literally too much that I don't just have fond memories of, but simply miss. Dungeons and Dragons should be featured in a more PnP manner!
But despite all that love for CRPG, I still love a compelling story. And Mass Effect 2 offers it.

It is a shame that you don't really see games like Planescape: Torment anymore.

I can understand your point of view, but I'm someone that can (and has) appreciate(d) both styles. After beating ME2 and naming it my personal GOTY, I've recently started Dragon Age and am enjoying it just as much. It is a bit sad because you're right, there may not be any more CRPGs for a while. All we can do is hope that they make a comeback similar to the way SSFIV did it for fighting games. In the meantime though, I'll continue to greatly enjoy the genres evolution.

" I can understand your point of view, but I'm someone that can (and has) appreciate(d) both styles. After beating ME2 and naming it my personal GOTY, I've recently started Dragon Age and am enjoying it just as much. It is a bit sad because you're right, there may not be any more CRPGs for a while. All we can do is hope that they make a comeback similar to the way SSFIV did it for fighting games. In the meantime though, I'll continue to greatly enjoy the genres evolution. "