" It is a shame that you don't really see games like Planescape: Torment anymore. "

Holy fucking shit I agree with nearly everything you said Dave. This is one of the huge goddamn reasons I didn't like Mass Effect 2 even though I loved the first.

I am a huge fan of the Mass Effect universe, and being able to immerse myself in that lore is why I love the Mass Effect franchise. This is also why I am still not able to decide which of the two I prefer more. I have gripes about the combat system in Mass Effect 2, and dislike the direction it took in becoming more of an action game, but I still loved playing it.  
 
I also should apologize if all those PM's annoyed you, seeing as I was one of the people who sent you a message. I didn't do it out of a need to make yourself justify your opinion, but instead was genuinely curious what your opinion on Mass Effect 2 and 1 was. Thanks for the response though, it was amazingly well structured and in some aspects I totally agree.

take a chill pill dude. It's only a game .

Point taken. I do agree with you Dave, however, I also love the new direction these games have taken. I love the Mass Effect series, Dragon Age and the KOTORS. The problem here is that they have replaced their predecessors. Companies are trying to make games accessible to as many people as possible, the drawback to this is that they have become quite simple and more adrenaline based to keep the average consumer interested. It has happened with many facets of entertainment. 
 
I would say a similar thing happened with music, particularly popular music. Businesses want the widest and largest audience possible, therefore, it is sometimes necessary to dumb things down. A majority of the music you get on the charts now a days is utter crap and so incredibly straight forward and boring, many of these faces are just living advertisements (Rihanna, Britney Spears, Akon, etc,), and so many of them aren't even musical. I find it so frustrating how there are so many talented people out there that don't get noticed, then you get this shit that is just ground low and not even real. There is talent and hard work in the production for some of these to be appreciated but musically it just really doesn't appeal to me. I'm not saying all music and video games should be complex. I enjoy simple games and music a majority of the games I play are rather simple (e.g.: the Fable series). But it has to be approached in the right way, much popular music now a days lacks substance or "art," it says nothing and means nothing, it can also be fine when music does this, but it is so obvious with some forms of it that it's purely for the money and so deliberately and specifically designed for the average person that it is insulting and just doesn't work for me; this "average person" does not really exist, it is a consensus reached from statistics. This music is many a time designed to make money and be "enjoyed" by the mass. When the mass gets involved it tends to ruin things, you can't please everyone. Substance is sacrificed for more accessibility. Wow went on massive tangent there and lost track sorry lol. Can't really remember what I was getting at. :P

I'm still trying to figure out why people would complain about AssBro in a thread about old school RPGs.

" @JJWeatherman said:

" I can understand your point of view, but I'm someone that can (and has) appreciate(d) both styles. After beating ME2 and naming it my personal GOTY, I've recently started Dragon Age and am enjoying it just as much. It is a bit sad because you're right, there may not be any more CRPGs for a while. All we can do is hope that they make a comeback similar to the way SSFIV did it for fighting games. In the meantime though, I'll continue to greatly enjoy the genres evolution. "

As someone that enjoys RPGs, both in terms of their stories and their traditional mechanics, it's disheartening to see ME2 lauded with such praise as an RPG because Dave is right in a way.  It's less an RPG than it is a shooter with some RPG trappings. "

 Just bought Planet scape torment (never played), Baldur's gate and BG 2 about 2 weeks ago on good old games.  Playing through BG 1 right now (3/4 of away of finishing the game).  Will play the others later.
 
Anyways the game is still amazing.  Other than the horrible journal, the game still plays very well and looks decent enough.   Hopefully as you mention on TNT that a    smaller developer teams should make a engine similar to the infinity engine or Bioware makes an HD version of the engine.   Bioware could take a small team to make a game.  I know the Bioware  situation is unlikely as the returns for the game would be nothing to EA.  But at least it would be a good test to see if the market cares these types of games or if it just a couple of us.    

" People are way to defensive about ME2.  I'm really starting to hate ME2, not because I don't like the game but because of the ridiculous fanboys attacking people for not calling it the best game ever. "

" @JJWeatherman said:

" I can understand your point of view, but I'm someone that can (and has) appreciate(d) both styles. After beating ME2 and naming it my personal GOTY, I've recently started Dragon Age and am enjoying it just as much. It is a bit sad because you're right, there may not be any more CRPGs for a while. All we can do is hope that they make a comeback similar to the way SSFIV did it for fighting games. In the meantime though, I'll continue to greatly enjoy the genres evolution. "

As someone that enjoys RPGs, both in terms of their stories and their traditional mechanics, it's disheartening to see ME2 lauded with such praise as an RPG because Dave is right in a way.  It's less an RPG than it is a shooter with some RPG trappings. "

" @gike987 said:

" People are way to defensive about ME2.  I'm really starting to hate ME2, not because I don't like the game but because of the ridiculous fanboys attacking people for not calling it the best game ever. "

Wouldn't you want to be mad at the fanboys and not the game they are defending? "

KOTOR and Mass Effect are the results of game design catering to the control scheme and audience of consoles.

Well said, Mr. Snider. I may disagree with you, but well said indeed. 

I respectfully disagree, but I totally see where you're coming from :)

" @Hailinel said:

" @JJWeatherman said:

" I can understand your point of view, but I'm someone that can (and has) appreciate(d) both styles. After beating ME2 and naming it my personal GOTY, I've recently started Dragon Age and am enjoying it just as much. It is a bit sad because you're right, there may not be any more CRPGs for a while. All we can do is hope that they make a comeback similar to the way SSFIV did it for fighting games. In the meantime though, I'll continue to greatly enjoy the genres evolution. "

As someone that enjoys RPGs, both in terms of their stories and their traditional mechanics, it's disheartening to see ME2 lauded with such praise as an RPG because Dave is right in a way.  It's less an RPG than it is a shooter with some RPG trappings. "

I'd argue that while it isn't an RPG in the classic sense, it is where RPGs are headed, at least from what I can tell. Therefore we have to start considering these shooter/RPG hybrids as real RPGs. It's the evolution of a genre. It's kind of sad to be losing a lot of traditional trappings, but things seem to be going in this direction. "

My favorite Dragon Age memories are the parts where I came up with an excellent strategy to overcome what would have otherwise been a challenging fight. When faced with overwhelming numbers where I happened to be in a narrow corridor, I'd slap down a glyph of warding to create an impasse, toss a couple of area effect spells into the mix, and wait for the whole crowd to either be dead or softened up enough to mop up afterwards. Maybe add a fireball, to boot. I'm going to miss that. 
 
Tactical camera RPGs, there are people who still appreciate you. 
 
Of course, I also think Mass Effect (at least the sequel) becomes an amazingly tactical game on the insanity difficulty setting. Unfortunately, it's kind of an uneven experience where you'll feel great for struggling through every combat situation, then come to a section of the game where things seem more than a little unfair, and you end up dying over and over again until you just happen to have circumstances work out in your favor. 

You make a ton of sense and I most definately agree with everything.. However I may be part of the problem, because I also enjoyed the hell outta ME2 and Fallout 3, and honestly I don't know that I would really call one really better than the other, but they are most definately very different in how you must play them successfully..

 
Like I said I really liked FO3 and ME2, I also loved Dragon age, I played through Neverwinter Nights the other year, and yesterday I started NWN 2..    I also just finished Metro 2033 last week, and liked it quite well, I also love the first two Fallout games, But I also like most of Bethesda's games..  Not sure where I'm going with this, guess I just wanted to point out that there is also those of us who just like a big variety of game types, and while I hope to hell there is always games around like the old CRPG's, I also can't wait to see what comes next..

  
 
I guess I'd also like to say that blaming current trends on consoles to me seems like an ill informed argument.. The truth is that games are are made by game companies, and companies are all businesses, and businesses exist to make a profit, and the cost to make games these days is extremely high..  I was a business owner for about 6 years, and at the end of the day, if your company doesn't make money, the kids don't get new shoes, anyway my point is that game developers for the most part need to reach a wide audience, and that requires appealing to a wide crowd, so things are gonna get "streamlined" for accessibility, its just the way the world works.. 
 
At least that way, they keep making games, and we get to keep playing them

" @GreggD:  Yeah, I usually have to gain some sort of momentum before I can really enjoy that game. Hope you'll have a good time playing it :)
 
@Simulacrum said:

" It is a shame that you don't really see games like Planescape: Torment anymore. "

To be fair, we've only seen a game like that once. "

Dave, what kind of crazy hornet's nest did you whack with a stick?  lol
 
I think Mass Effect 2 was a great game.  I also think that people miscategorize it as an RPG because it has dialogue trees and light RPG elements.  In turn, I'm saying that Dave makes some of the best and hard-to-argue points out there.

I disagree with what you have to say but I will defend to the death your right to say it. One thing I do agree with is the fear surrounding Dragon Age 2. I love Mass Effect and Dragon Age but for totally different reasons. I love both of the worlds that the games occupy but as far as gameplay, they couldn't be more different. I loved Dragon Age because it brings back the days of classic CRPGs. I loved Mass Effect 2 because it evolved RPGs in a way that was interesting and accessible. I don't want Dragon Age to become Mass Effect with swords. I want to be able to enjoy both as unique experiences and dumbing Dragon Age 2 down completely misses the point.

" @JJWeatherman said:

" @Hailinel said:

" @JJWeatherman said:

" I can understand your point of view, but I'm someone that can (and has) appreciate(d) both styles. After beating ME2 and naming it my personal GOTY, I've recently started Dragon Age and am enjoying it just as much. It is a bit sad because you're right, there may not be any more CRPGs for a while. All we can do is hope that they make a comeback similar to the way SSFIV did it for fighting games. In the meantime though, I'll continue to greatly enjoy the genres evolution. "

As someone that enjoys RPGs, both in terms of their stories and their traditional mechanics, it's disheartening to see ME2 lauded with such praise as an RPG because Dave is right in a way.  It's less an RPG than it is a shooter with some RPG trappings. "

I'd argue that while it isn't an RPG in the classic sense, it is where RPGs are headed, at least from what I can tell. Therefore we have to start considering these shooter/RPG hybrids as real RPGs. It's the evolution of a genre. It's kind of sad to be losing a lot of traditional trappings, but things seem to be going in this direction. "

I would argue that maybe bioware is, but not everyone; hell, look at Stalker. That is straight shooter with RPG elements, and I would argue that it's more of an RPG than ME2 is, because although you don't level up or anything, you do have to weigh pros and cons of weapons and armor, where in ME2 it's mainly a straight upgrade from shitty pistol to better pistol etc. and the exploration aspect, which ME2 doesn't have at all. "

Summary: Mass Effect 2 is not russian enough!
 
We still love you Dave :)

It is painful to see what once were deep, complex genres or game series get dumbed down. A big part of the problem is developers having to make console versions of their games now. For example: Thief 3 was an installment in one of the most brilliantly designed PC game series and, because it was being simultaneously developed for the Xbox, ended up falling leagues below its potential as the developers had to take into account the hardware limitations of the console format. Thus, Thief and Thief 2, six years older and four years older respectively, ended up being bigger and better games than Thief 3.  Another example: I'm sure Dragon Age Origins wouldn't have had half the load zones it did if it had been developed solely for the PC.
 
It makes me wonder- if companies like Looking Glass were still around would they too be dumbing down their games? I like to think they wouldn't. Irrational Games is in some way spiritually Looking Glass living on; And Bioshock didn't challenge me near enough as System Shock 2 did (though Bioshock is still a phenomenal game).  It's simple- System Shock 2 was a PC game. Bioshock was made to be mainstream. That isn't bad, but it's why Bioshock isn't as challenging as System Shock 2 (and the contrast becomes even more stark when compared to the first System Shock).
 
PC gamer elitism isn't the point here. It's not that console games are bad. It's just that as developers, genres, and series that were once great in the PC gaming world move on to being multiplatform, design starts getting dumbed down. The trend since the end of the 90s has been for once complex games to get simple, rather than vice versa. That isn't necessarily bad for everyone; but for most people who grew up as and remain PC gamers, it is.

My mind boggles at the sheer stupidity displayed in this thread. 

If we look at the history of roleplaying it branched off from wargames but made more personalised and story-based. Practically every role-playing system ever made has a detailed, strategic combat system and the same with the long history of CRPGs. It's still impossible to simulate a roleplaying narrative so they opted for detailed combat systems instead. Having a good story still is not roleplaying, as anyone who's looked at a tabletop system would know. That's all that Dave's saying, I think, and he's right. A cover-based shooter with a story and dialogue options is still a shooter, a genre ME2 takes much more from than RPGs: player skill > character skill, character builds and equips are pretty much nonexistent, little strategic depth, and as almost everyone who's ever written about the game has commented it is "streamlined" but basically what they mean is it is no longer an RPG.
 
Mass Effect 2 is not an evolution of the genre, it is a departure. There's nothing here for a fan of RPGs to get excited about.

" @Hailinel said:

" @JJWeatherman said:

" I can understand your point of view, but I'm someone that can (and has) appreciate(d) both styles. After beating ME2 and naming it my personal GOTY, I've recently started Dragon Age and am enjoying it just as much. It is a bit sad because you're right, there may not be any more CRPGs for a while. All we can do is hope that they make a comeback similar to the way SSFIV did it for fighting games. In the meantime though, I'll continue to greatly enjoy the genres evolution. "

As someone that enjoys RPGs, both in terms of their stories and their traditional mechanics, it's disheartening to see ME2 lauded with such praise as an RPG because Dave is right in a way.  It's less an RPG than it is a shooter with some RPG trappings. "

I'd argue that while it isn't an RPG in the classic sense, it is where RPGs are headed, at least from what I can tell. Therefore we have to start considering these shooter/RPG hybrids as real RPGs. It's the evolution of a genre. It's kind of sad to be losing a lot of traditional trappings, but things seem to be going in this direction. "

I will simply rebutt with this. if a game is designed on a console that is limited to only a controller with a limited amount of buttons, and then the game is ported to the pc. what do you expect?  
 
Who would buy a console game with the depth and controls of way wow or diablo and every extra feature and control option that a pc player is stripped and limited to the 14 or so buttons on your controller?  
 
At least we can experience what the hoopla is on the PC since it's already a breed of dying gaming platforms with them porting the game to superior hardware.  
 
Nobody is building super pc's anymore to play games with. But my co worker is building a 2000+ dollar machine to fucking play wow and trying to tell me wow needs all of that power.   
 
Nerds that like super RPG's stopped playing them on computers and go meet up in that store in the mall everyone walks by and makes fun of with their plastic toys and war strategy books to battle. 

You make some good points.
 
I think the most disappointing thing about playing a game like Mass Effect 2 is knowing that Bioware could have made something much better and more complex, like Icewind Dale or Baldur's Gate. But I guess we won't be seeing anything like that anytime soon.

" @Aetheldod said:

" @snide:  You are wrong ... Mass Effect was always meant to be an hybrid , it is  an excelent game and I say that the people that complain that in this games you dont use your brains are liars , you actually have to think faster to adjust to the evolving situation , so you dont like just say so , dont say that the game is bad because you dont like the way it plays , you RPGelitist are indeed a bad thing and a hindrance to new types of gameplays , HYBRIDS!!!!!! Also to the loot maniacs , there is loot in ME 2 in form of blue prints and new weapon models , and not every RPG must have 3000 billions things to grab were only 10 are good and the rest is garbage , you already have your games like that leave the rest of us with the hybrids "

Mass Effect 1 had far more in terms of traditional RPG mechanics than ME2.  I'd say that it's perfectly reasonable for any fan of Bioware's previous RPGs and ME1 in particular to be annoyed with the direction that ME2 took. "

I guess I'm really, really old-school, because I don't think RPGs are defined by their combat at all. It's about ropleplaying a character in a story and exploring a world, interacting with other characters. In fact, combat isn't necessary to an RPG at all, it's just the easiest way to create adversity for a character to overcome.
 
CRPGs will never reach the level of flexibility a good DM can come up with (not before actual artificial intelligence, that is) but they substitute it with an audiovisual experience and far more fluent gameplay that will immerse you in the world far more readily, you'll need much less of a suspension of disbelief and active imagination to enjoy it. Some might say that's a bad thing, but not necessarily. It's a different sort of experience.
 
I like ME. I liked Dragon Age. I liked KOTOR. I like all that shit. I DM a D&D game but with far less focus on combat rules than someone like Dave would, were he DMing the game. I understand Dave's point; he loved that older D&D style combat, which is to the tastes of some, not necessarily mine. I find older D&D style combat rules clunky, especially for a video game. While I can respect the fact that some people enjoy the chess-like elements of it, for me it is more likely to break immersion than create it. Simply put: I don't play games because they're a challenge, I play games because they're an experience.
 
As for the quality of writingin games: Yes, most of it is still quite poor -- or at best, well done b-movie plot stuff. But that's no reason to write it all off as if it didn't matter. It does, and we should expect it to get better as games become more respected as an art form. As a DM I try my best to give my players an intriguing story and interesting characters and atmosphere (whether or not I succeed at that, I'm not qualified to say).
 
 
edit: @Hashbrowns seems to have voiced some of my opinions.

I really miss those old tactical crpg's myself.... I was never too fond of turn based but the best game in recent memory in this style (mostly) is Eschalon book 1 and 2.
 Check it out!

I liked when you used the wrong weapon for the situation in ME1 and you missed due to some gamy rpg multipliers and random dice rolling, you clearly were hitting the dudes in the head but it was encouraging you to micro in order to get to optimal output damage. Now you have the stupid Barrior-Shield-Armor situation which usually means heavy pistol vs all the other weapons and you mostly end up breaking those defenses using biotic or tech powers without the need of any complex tactic. I really hope they stop dumbing down the gameplay and leave it like ME2, we are hopeless to think that they will come back to the ME1 style.

That's the problem with trying to reach the wider audience I guess. To be honest, I find it weird to see Bioware being this relevant of a company. They probably have to churn shit like this so they Don't get a sacking from EA. 
 
If it wasn't for the handful of characters I actually cared about, I probably wouldn't think twice about ME. I know I was defiantly turned off by the game-play the moment things got going. Eventually ME isn't going to be an RPG at all. It'll just be a quick and easy game that anyone can jump into and all of your dialogue trees will be dumbed down to Left-Trigger Right-Trigger.
 
I do miss the good old days of Bioware, I still pop in Neverwinter nights for good measure now and then.

I agree completely!

" So why is it when a member of staff posts his (sort of negative) opinion about a game on the forums everyone jumps to kiss his ass and agree, but when others have shared similar views to Dave, many have just insulted them? Urgh.  Totally agree with you though Dave. "

We were nearing the end of active work on design content for Dragon Age… there was still a lot more bug fixing/polishing/ and fill-content generation ahead but the core plot/writing and level design was finished. My work was rapidly shifting into that of reviewing what the team had put together.

Discussion on Dragon Age 2 began around this time and looking ahead I knew that I wasn’t going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would be. Party control/tactical combat are huge factors in my enjoyment of a role-playing game as is adopting the role of the hero (i.e., customizing my character). I was fairly certain Dragon Age would transition towards more of a Mass Effect experience, which while enjoyable is not the type of role-playing game I play. Could I be the lead designer on such a title? Certainly… though if I were going to work on a game adopting a set-in-stone protagonist I’d rather work on something lighter, like a shooter.

Through a series of circumstances it was decided that with my not wanting to participate on Dragon Age 2 it was time to transition in a new lead to finish the Dragon Age console versions and ramp up for Dragon Age 2. I moved out of an active lead role though I stayed on for several months performing quality assurance and helping with the transition. I completed the game several times during this period and racked up the second or third highest bug totals… so, still busy but doing something quite different.

After this was over and the content locked down I took a sabbatical.       

please let dragon age 2 be like dragon age 1 please please bioware have mercy.

I didn't know that there was so much debate about this. This is what I get from missing TNT. Dave is pretty much right about the flaws he mentioned towards Mass Effect 2. When I, and mostly all of us here, saw those barricades I already knew that shooting was about to start. It's all about your feelings towards it. I didn't mind that. In my opinion, pretty much all games has a tell on what is about to happen, and Mass Effect 2 is no different. 
 
I don't agree about the shooting in the beginning being the same as the shooting in the middle or in the end of the game. There was new weapons and new skills you would gain throughout the game, mainly because of your team members. The different ammo was also another way to engage the enemies. Some ammo was better to use against certain types of enemy. 
 
It depends on how much you tolerate or like certain aspects of the game. I liked going through the ship. I liked going everywhere. I always went inside the woman's bathroom, just in case. I fed my fish all the time. I talked with Joker to see how he and EDI were doing. I went and drink some wine with the doc (she wanted to fuck me, I knew it). I would check on the other staff and the cook to see how everyone was doing.

All this talk about old RPGs made me buy Temple of Elemental Evil from GOG, I hope it's good, it's pretty much the only D&D RPG I haven't played.