" @Hashbrowns said:

"The rulesets and basic game mechanics are NOT THEMSELVES Role Playing.  Role Playing is about choice, flexibility, and an ability to influence events in a meaningful way; it has nothing to do with Dexterity, Strength, Defense, or any other numerical statistic-based mechanic."

Well said and I absolutely agree.  I really do not understand the argument that says Mass Effect is no longer an RPG.  You are straight up Role Playing throughout the whole game.  RPG stands for "Role Playing Game", not "Loot & Stat Game".
 
Saying "It's not an RPG, it's a Shooter!" also makes no sense.  The terms are not mutually exclusive and they're referring to different aspects of the game.  It's like describing a car and saying "It's not a fast car, it's a blue car!" - no, the car is fast and blue.  ME2 is an RPG and a Shooter.  If that doesn't fit with our need to neatly pigeonhole games into one exact category, then we need to come up with more/better categories. "

" @snide:  Damn Dave. If I ever go to the US, let me buy you a beer, 'cause I completely agree with everything in that post. "

RPGs all follow different conventions for combat but what really brings them into one common genre is the way the player interacts with the story and how saying certain things or taking certain actions can change the story.  Thats what its really about and Mass Effect 1 and 2 do an amazing job of that.  You may not like the combat but the role, as in story role, part is great. 

" The Witcher / The Witcher 2 doesn't fit what Dave is talking about at all.  If it goes anywhere it goes in the Mass Effect category.  If somebody is gonna sit there and tell me that The Witcher had 'complicated, challenging and flexible' combat then I am calling shenanigans on this whole discussion. "

" Counterspells. That's a word you don't hear much, if at all, these days. "

 I like just about any good entry, doesn't matter if it's something I'm supposed to like or not. I'm more about if they achieve the goals they set out to do or not. A lot of games fail that while still being what others define as perfect examples of RPGs. Some game bog down in intricate mechanics, some games are so much about story that you don't actually have enough choices for it to even be considered a game by most people's estimation.  In the pen and paper world, you blame those excesses on the GM, but in computer gaming the GM is just sending you handouts, and it's up to the designers to actually adapt to player choice. I feel another essay brewing... "

" Sir, you are a wise, wise man. It's hard to find people who share my feelings about Mass Effect 2. Witcher 2 is the only RPG I look forward to in 2011 and I used to be a RPG Fan... "

Let's just hope Dragon Age 2 is more DA:O than it is ME2

" Well, nothing modern is going to beat Ultima IV and VII it seems. ;) (maybe Sword of Fargoal, but that's a dungeoncrawler, not a pure-blood RPG)   I also agree on most parts regarding ME2, especially the things about combat since that's what killed the fun for me and turned the latter half of the game into utter boredom, just to get to the damn ending. "

I understand what you're saying, Dave. Well-written.

I think bethesda should implement Demons' Souls combat mechanics into Skyrim or something really similar to it. They also need better character animations. That has always been their weakness. 

I find myself agreeing with you quite a bit. Mass effect 2, probably my favourite game of last year. But yet the points you make are totally valid, your primary interaction is arguably a second rate gears of war knock off. What it does so expertly create is atmosphere and immersion, and these for me anyway, make up for any weakness in the actual 'gameplay'.

My introduction to CRPGs was KOTOR, and I loved it. Since then I've worked my way back through time thanks to GoG.com (with the exception of Dragon Age) and I think I see what you're saying, Dave. Basically, you miss a genre that is almost extinct in the industry.
 
Today's generation of games is not only less complicated, they're... different. I guess by design that makes them somewhat easier, but that's not really the point. To use BioWare as an example, following their games back and forward through time since KOTOR, it's easy and a little depressing to see how character dialogue and interaction - a main selling point of theirs - get distilled down into ME2 starting with KOTOR. It doesn't mean they're not good; I really enjoyed ME2 for what it was - a Gears-style shooter with great dialogue and limited skill progression - but it was nothing compared to ME1, which was more balanced regarding shooter vs. RPG, and completely unrecognizable compared to Baldur's Gate II, which I started playing a couple of weeks ago.

Great read. Bring back infinity ingine games again!