Can you pull off giving people the real ending in DLC?

#1 Posted by jillsandwich (761 posts) -

The Internets(as you most likely know if you're viewing this forum) are currently abuzz with speculation and rampant vitriolic hate about the Mass Effect 3 ending. Honestly, there's enough evidence about that I think that the indoctrination theory is pretty conclusive. It seems like it will make sense that BioWare will release some sort of DLC with the "Real" ending.

So, here's my question:

Do you think fucking ANYBODY, let alone BioWare in 2012 could pull something like that off? I know some games like Prince of Persia and Alan Wake have done similar things, but I don't think either of those games left you as unsatisfied with the ending as ME3(I haven't played Prince of Persia) did. Stack on top of that how the BioWare fan community has become more and more hateful of EVERYTHING that company does since Dragon Age II, I honestly don't think that even if this update is free(which it should be, they'd be fucking insane if it was paid, right?) it will go over well with the community at all. Deliberately leaving customers with a shitty false ending to give them a real ending through DLC is a little insane, but I could see how some french canadian person could view it as some sort of interesting artistic experiment. I just really, really hope that I don't have to pay for it.

Then again, I don't know how I wouldn't have to pay for it, EA wouldn't let anything like that slide without making a little bit of extra money. Hell, they're a business, I can see why. I'm probably just trying my hardest to convince myself that the DLC will be free anyways.

If BioWare fails horribly with this(hypothetical) endeavor, do you think anyone could pull it off with some degree of taste?

#2 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

Fallout 3. 

#3 Posted by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

I still don't fucking understand the Fallout 3 argument, they didn't even change the ending. All they did was allow your partner to go in so no one had to die.
 
Am I the only fucking person who played Fallout 3?
 
Also no, they can't. Because even if the theory is true there is literally no where they can go with it that would lead to a satisfying conclusion because they fucked up that badly.

#4 Edited by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -
@LordXavierBritish said:

I still don't fucking understand the Fallout 3 argument, they didn't even change the ending. All they did was allow your partner to go in so no one had to die.  Am I the only fucking person who played Fallout 3?  Also no, they can't. Because even if the theory is true there is literally no where they can go with it that would lead to a satisfying conclusion because they fucked up that badly.

I was a bit annoyed that they more or less sold a ending for that game.(or the ability to keep playing)  Course I made the mistake of only having a single save (Last one before that was quite a few hours older) Before the final fight. It was stupid of me. But the idea that they Kinda tied you off with death instead of letting you walk around annoyed me. 
#5 Posted by Irvandus (2643 posts) -

For free... no never mind, make a good ending the first time. Or just say the crazy theory stuff is true, I'd be okay with the stuff the community has come up with.

#6 Posted by Turambar (6485 posts) -
@The_Laughing_Man said:
@LordXavierBritish said:

I still don't fucking understand the Fallout 3 argument, they didn't even change the ending. All they did was allow your partner to go in so no one had to die.  Am I the only fucking person who played Fallout 3?  Also no, they can't. Because even if the theory is true there is literally no where they can go with it that would lead to a satisfying conclusion because they fucked up that badly.

I was a bit annoyed that they more or less sold a ending for that game.(or the ability to keep playing)  Course I made the mistake of only having a single save (Last one before that was quite a few hours older) Before the final fight. It was stupid of me. But the idea that they Kinda tied you off with death instead of letting you walk around annoyed me. 
Didn't the ending change come along with Broken Steel, and its only reason for existence being so that the plot of Broken Steel will have a place in the FO3 world?
#7 Posted by joshthebear (2700 posts) -

Nope. They done fucked up.

#8 Edited by gregjay24 (31 posts) -

I've read alot of your posts about ME3. I agreed with alot of what you've said for awhile. I hate the ending just as much as anyone but honestly your just a cynical asshole. I don't think the indoctrination theory is true. I don't think the alleged DLC "The Truth" that finishes the game is real. But damn if I'm not hoping for it. And honestly I'm giving them a chance, they could pull it off. I love Bioware, not saying Im a Biodrone because I'll gladly call them out on something i don't agree with see my previous posts about the ending, and im rooting for them to come out with a killer finish to the series. Hell if they did it i wouldnt even be mad, id forgive this whole ending situation cause its something they wanted to try and as long as its free im fine with it. Even if its five dollars, was ME3 worth $75? Hell yeah. Is EA a group of cheap assholes? Obviously. Would I be mad I had to pay for javik and the ending? Furious. But ME in my mind greatest video game series of all time if it came out with a great ending, so i can forgive them for being cheap and had a horrible idea about ending the series (if the ending is great my wording may even change to "masters of suspense") because they gave us the ME series. But as it is I dont think that will be the case. As it is its a great series completely tarnished by a shitfuck of an ending and probably wont be buying bioware products anytime soon

#9 Posted by gregjay24 (31 posts) -

And yeah I think someone could pull it off you'd probably have to make it more clear that more is still to come though. it gets people talking thats for sure

#10 Posted by Arker101 (1474 posts) -

I would love for them to release paid DLC for the ending. It would answer two questions I have. Is the market really naive enough to encourage this kind of thing, and if it isn't would most of it turn against Bioware?

#11 Posted by NoobSauceG7 (1210 posts) -

I would love that, but no

#12 Posted by Brodehouse (9370 posts) -

4 years later I feel like the people who complain about the Prince of Persia ending just don't fucking get it. Patrick, especially. Considering him and Brad jizz all over anything that appears to be artistic, it baffles me how he thinks about it.

#13 Posted by RockinKemosabe (619 posts) -

I think Bioware could release a true ending via DLC, but even if it's spectacular and rewarding, people will still criticize Bioware relentlessly for not putting the real ending on the disc.

#14 Edited by Jaytow (673 posts) -

Game ends.

DLC begins.

Shepard wakes.

Doesn't know why things hadn't happened the way he thought.

End of DLC finds out he was indoctrinated and "fights" harbinger.

Although I think any DLC they do will be pre endgame, I predict they will throw indoctrination hints at us throughout (headaches ect..) the DLC to keep us guessing even if they never plan to make any post ME3 mass effect content.

Either they put the indoctrination stuff in on purpose to keep us guessing until the end of time or they will eventually act on it, there's no way that stuff is all coincidental. I'd love fallout 3 style DLC for ME3 although it's probably just going to be a few, kinda crappy, pre endgame missions.

As for as justifying a "true ending" to the fans is concerned, well we'll have to see the price of that stuff.

#15 Posted by drag (1223 posts) -

step one, complain there's not enough choice in the ending. step two, petition for one true ending. okay then.

#16 Posted by Darth_Slayer (14 posts) -

They dont and will not,you guys know why?Someone on the Internet didnt liked the ending so few hundreds jumped on the bandwaggon and followed him,repeating his or her views on things over and over again.That is the Internet while 90% of players dont read all these comments and just play trough it and take the ending as it is or even enjoying it alot .

The Majority of gamers,Iam pretty sure dont even know its a hated ending.Me for once enjoyed it and I was confused that so many said they didnt.

But expected that this would happen,just because it was such a big project they couldnt make it work for everybody.But I wish,and Iam not sure if Iam right here,that people dont repeat so many they just hear from others.If someone doesnt like it,its fine but please dont dislike something just because its generally accepted to not like it...or even trendy to not like it.

#17 Edited by Napalm (9020 posts) -

Yes, they can. Ultimately, it isn't the ideal situation, but until we know more facts regarding the ending and how the story was planned out, we can't really say much else. If it's a free update, then it absolutely can work. 
 
I am of the mind that they rushed to scrap and change the ending, which is why we get something half-assed.

#18 Posted by NTM (7034 posts) -

I think devoted fans (which are most of the people that played through all three Mass Effect's) would buy a new ending if they made one, but that'd still be a shame if we did have to pay for it. It's just awkward.

#19 Posted by Vegetable_Side_Dish (1722 posts) -

They can do it and people will buy it, but their name will be damaged even further than it is now. 

#20 Posted by Jaytow (673 posts) -

@LordXavierBritish said:

I still don't fucking understand the Fallout 3 argument, they didn't even change the ending. All they did was allow your partner to go in so no one had to die.

That's change.

#21 Posted by aspaceinvader (250 posts) -

Yes you can do it. I think they will give the fans a final ending that will make most happy but not all.

#22 Posted by Brodehouse (9370 posts) -
@Pr1mus

@jillsandwich said:

but I could see how some french canadian person could view it as some sort of interesting artistic experiment. I just really, really hope that I don't have to pay for it.

Hey, hey, hey, hey, HEY!! Don't try to tell people Bioware is from Quebec now, scumbag english Canada can keep their garbage to themselves! Quebec is already messed up enough as it is!

The ending was made in Edmonton, so obviously it got too damn cold at one point and all the data froze up. This was all they could put together. Once it's May and the snow melts they can thaw out the real ending.
#23 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -
@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:
They can do it and people will buy it, but their name will be damaged even further than it is now. 
They'd just have to spin it that they were planning this all along, unless they really have been working on an additional ending, but maybe fan reactions will shape that as well. But like I said, we really just have to wait a month or so when mostly everybody has finished it. Then BioWare said they'll open up a dialogue about the ending. Right now they are just providing a place for everybody to discuss the ending, and they are listening.
#24 Posted by JeanLuc (3518 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

4 years later I feel like the people who complain about the Prince of Persia ending just don't fucking get it. Patrick, especially. Considering him and Brad jizz all over anything that appears to be artistic, it baffles me how he thinks about it.

I liked the Prince of Persia ending.

I hated that DLC because it was bad and didn't add any story at all.

#25 Posted by MikkaQ (10225 posts) -

@Pr1mus said:

@jillsandwich said:

but I could see how some french canadian person could view it as some sort of interesting artistic experiment. I just really, really hope that I don't have to pay for it.

Hey, hey, hey, hey, HEY!! Don't try to tell people Bioware is from Quebec now, scumbag english Canada can keep their garbage to themselves! Quebec is already messed up enough as it is!

Unfortunately, it's true. The French Canadians put their filthy, poutine-encrusted hands on ME3. Bioware Montreal exists.

#26 Posted by Vegetable_Side_Dish (1722 posts) -
@Napalm said:
@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:
They can do it and people will buy it, but their name will be damaged even further than it is now. 
They'd just have to spin it that they were planning this all along, unless they really have been working on an additional ending, but maybe fan reactions will shape that as well. But like I said, we really just have to wait a month or so when mostly everybody has finished it. Then BioWare said they'll open up a dialogue about the ending. Right now they are just providing a place for everybody to discuss the ending, and they are listening.
Nah, they can't release the 'proper' ending as DLC when there are people who bought the physical copy of the game for full price that can't access it, it just isn't tenable. People will call bullshit, even if it is free. This 'dialogue' is a PR exercise, as is the new Baldur's Gate inititative. 
#27 Edited by Napalm (9020 posts) -
@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

Nah, they can't release the 'proper' ending as DLC when there are people who bought the physical copy of the game for full price that can't access it, it just isn't tenable.

Yeah, they can, actually. And companies have. Where were you when Alan Wake and Price Of Persia did this? The money they'd be making if it wasn't free is far more valuable than the 1.89% of people who don't have a serviceable internet connection to download the content. Sorry, but that's a really old and tired argument at this point.
#28 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -
@MikkaQ

@Pr1mus said:

@jillsandwich said:

but I could see how some french canadian person could view it as some sort of interesting artistic experiment. I just really, really hope that I don't have to pay for it.

Hey, hey, hey, hey, HEY!! Don't try to tell people Bioware is from Quebec now, scumbag english Canada can keep their garbage to themselves! Quebec is already messed up enough as it is!

Unfortunately, it's true. The French Canadians put their filthy, poutine-encrusted hands on ME3. Bioware Montreal exists.

Bash the French Canadians all y
#29 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -

Fucking phone broke my post. As I was saying. Bash the French Canadians all you want.. But NEVER say anything bad about poutine! That shit is delicious

#30 Posted by Brodehouse (9370 posts) -
@JeanLuc

@Brodehouse said:

4 years later I feel like the people who complain about the Prince of Persia ending just don't fucking get it. Patrick, especially. Considering him and Brad jizz all over anything that appears to be artistic, it baffles me how he thinks about it.

I liked the Prince of Persia ending.

I hated that DLC because it was bad and didn't add any story at all.

Agreed.

Still that ending was so clever. It was one of the rare times when gameplay meets story and works. Patrick going off on it is frustrating. Chances are he didn't play it and is basing his opinion off of others.
#31 Posted by huntad (1930 posts) -

If it's free, then it is possible. If they charge money, people are gonna go on an even bigger rant. I think they should just leave everything as is.

#32 Posted by Brodehouse (9370 posts) -
@Pr1mus BioWare means that Dr. Ray and Dr. Greg are responsible for it. Even 'Edmonton' doesn't mean you're getting 'real' BioWare because there's Hudson's team and Laidlaw's team.
#33 Posted by MikkaQ (10225 posts) -

@CL60 said:

Fucking phone broke my post. As I was saying. Bash the French Canadians all you want.. But NEVER say anything bad about poutine! That shit is delicious

I have got to be the least Canadian Canadian because I find poutine to be gross! Soggy fries? That shit cray. I like 'em crispy and fresh.

@Pr1mus said:

@MikkaQ: I'm sure Bioware Montreal as with almost all other "bioware" studio outside Edmonton is just a name EA will put on anything to try and give it some sort of credibility. And if anything, Edmonton people don't eat enough poutine to make great games!

I think Bioware Montreal is a support dev group, basically works on the big projects as they need them. So I imagine they probably generated resources for Edmonton to use in ME. Perhaps extra poutine is what's missing from Bioware's diet though, hmm...

#34 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3334 posts) -
@LordXavierBritish said:
I still don't fucking understand the Fallout 3 argument, they didn't even change the ending. All they did was allow your partner to go in so no one had to die.  Am I the only fucking person who played Fallout 3?  
So if ME3 DLC changed the ending to "all they did was allow the reapers to be destroyed without destroying any other synthetic lifeforms or the mass relays" that would not be changing the ending? 
 
For anyone who hasn't played Fallout 3, THIS is the experience I had with the game.  It's taken from another forum where I described my frustrations with Fallout 3's conclusion shortly after finishing the first time: 
  
So yeah, "allowing your partner to go in so no one had to die" was a huge change.
#35 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -

If its free I'd be fine with it, sucks for people without Internet thought. If its paid it's kinda dirty to sell the ending. But the technically already did that with arrival.

#36 Posted by haggis (1677 posts) -

They could, if it were free. And despite what some on here seem to think, most gamers would love them for it. It probably wouldn't hurt them at all in the long run. Still, this ending that everyone seems to think is "definitive" seems ludicrous and full of holes to me. Whatever. If they release it, I'll almost certainly play it. Hell, I'd probably even pay for it. It's hardly worth getting bent out of shape over it, but that's what the internet is for I guess.

#37 Edited by AndrewB (7194 posts) -

Can somebody fill me in on evidence that they are even thinking of doing something like this? Believe it or not, there is a group of talented writers over at Bioware that have a ton of integrity and are probably just fine with the ending they produced; probably more happy that people are reading into all sorts of crazy things.

If you didn't like the ending(s) to Mass Effect 3, I can understand that, but I think you guys are all blowing this way out of proportion.

Am also with on the idea that they didn't really change the ending to Fallout 3, they just added on something after it to allow for more DLC. The only change made was to follow some sense of logic and let the big radiation-immune Fawkes enter the chamber. It was really, really shitty that they added a line of dialog to make you feel like crap about doing so, but that's it.

I always figured any Mass Effect 3 DLC would either take place before or during the course of the game, possibly after with a nod towards the last snippets of what you see, but nothing so scandalous as retconning what you got regardless of whether you subscribe to the crazier hidden meanings you might extrapolate.

#38 Posted by Dookysharpgun (586 posts) -

Well the whole fallout 3 bit allowed a massive plothole to be filled by giving you the option of sending Fawkes in instead of you...it made logical sense, where the original endings had Fawkes say something like 'it's your destiny' and whatnot. That's a pretty important change, however small, to fix the borked logic of that game. You could also send in that Ghoul you bought the contract for. Pretty big change, that actually made sense instead of being something...well...pretty goddamn stupid.

Alan Wake used the whole To Be Continued bit to allow for DLC, though the ending wasn't great, I still thought that at least they gave the player reason to look for the DLC, and it worked out.

With ME3...no. The story was pretty much torn out through its own asshole, and it's broken beyond belief. DLC would have to go with the 'it was all a dream' approach to make sure things worked out in any logical sense...and even then, I doubt people would buy into it, given that a full retail game should have an actual ending to that game in it, not another game entirely, and shouldn't be sold separate to said game.

If people choose to 'believe' in Bioware, then fine, go ahead. I choose to go with my gut and say that even with DLC, they won't be able to dig themselves out of the enormous hole they dug for themselves. They should probably try to move on as quickly as possible, seeing as the MP isn't going to last last, and backing this game will cost more in the long run than making something new. To be honest, I just want to forget it and move on, there are plenty more games, and I'm still angry as all hell

@AndrewB: All Bioware had for this was one writer. The original writer for ME1 and ME2 left the studio, leaving the dude who was probably kept in check who co-wrote 2 in charge. When the chips were down, he probably wasn't up for the task, so he just pulled an ending out and forgot about it. There's also a rumour going round that in April we'll be seeing new DLC, with new MP races, a new map, and new SP content that is supposed to continue the game after the endings. While it's just a rumour, it hasn't been denied by Bioware, at least, I've not been made aware of anything to the contrary. The only thing I'll say is that it's extremely rare to get a vast majority of people agreeing on a certain element of a game, and I've never seen such hatred for a single piece of media in my life. I can fully understand why people may think everyone is blowing this out of proportion, but really...people who didn't believe any of the hatred for this ending are now in total agreement with the idea. I'm not saying it makes everything correct...and I'm totally in that group of people, for my own reasons, but it does give some interesting insight into just how seemingly bad this ending is. For Bioware to come out and say they'll discuss sit is another huge problem for them, because if you have to discuss it, then you didn't do your job right.

#39 Posted by AndrewB (7194 posts) -

@Dookysharpgun said:

@AndrewB: All Bioware had for this was one writer. The original writer for ME1 and ME2 left the studio, leaving the dude who was probably kept in check who co-wrote 2 in charge. When the chips were down, he probably wasn't up for the task, so he just pulled an ending out and forgot about it.

I don't even know what to say if you think Bioware would even hire a guy who would pull something out of his ass writing-wise, let alone put him in charge of their most high profile releases ever (he is also credited as the lead writer of Mas Effect 2, and wrote for the first game). There are 8 other writers in the credits, most of which worked on Mass Effect 2 and one who wrote for the first game.

I will admit that the writers I know and love have either moved on or were otherwise tied up with Dragon Age 2, probably 3, and The Old Republic.

#40 Edited by Vegetable_Side_Dish (1722 posts) -
@Napalm said:

@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

Nah, they can't release the 'proper' ending as DLC when there are people who bought the physical copy of the game for full price that can't access it, it just isn't tenable.

Yeah, they can, actually. And companies have. Where were you when Alan Wake and Price Of Persia did this? The money they'd be making if it wasn't free is far more valuable than the 1.89% of people who don't have a serviceable internet connection to download the content. Sorry, but that's a really old and tired argument at this point.
Time will tell my friend. Let's wait and see.  
And I wasn't referring to financial cost, by the way, I'm no idiot. 
#41 Posted by Jack268 (3387 posts) -

They kind of did that with POP2008, but at the same time, the first ending set up a sequel which they wouldn't get money to make, so they had to tie it up instead.

And I don't think XBL allows free DLC? I thought that was the reason TF2 and L4D were so screwed on consoles.

#42 Posted by jillsandwich (761 posts) -

@Jack268 said:

They kind of did that with POP2008, but at the same time, the first ending set up a sequel which they wouldn't get money to make, so they had to tie it up instead.

And I don't think XBL allows free DLC? I thought that was the reason TF2 and L4D were so screwed on consoles.

It's allowed, it's just hard as fuck to do. I remember some Gears 1 DLC being free because of product placement or something.

#43 Posted by Commisar123 (1786 posts) -

I think it would be really unfortunate if they did, but they will be able to if they want to.

#44 Posted by Tylea002 (2291 posts) -

The only way is through indoctrination, as that doesn't 'undo' the ending, but simply explains it in a way that makes more sense, and allows for a continuation. If they release something that replaces the ending, that is just fucked up and wrong, and cannot be pulled off. But if they go with the indoctrination theory, and everything that happened happened, but in the hallucination state and they go from there, there is far more ground to pull it off, though it is a long ass shot.

#45 Posted by CornishRocker (397 posts) -

I'm sure EA are pleased as punch to find out people want to pay for a new ending to the game.

#46 Edited by boj4ngles (287 posts) -

I think there is a good chance they will create some ending DLC and I base this on three simple observations:

  1. In the past, Bioware has almost always produced at least some form of single player DLC/Expansion Pack for its games.
  2. The clear, number one request that fans have made regarding DLC since release is for content that clarifies or expands upon the game's ending.
  3. Bioware fans have demonstrated time and again that they turn any company product into a commercial success, and so there is no reason worry that a thus-far unplanned project will be a bomb.

Now that being said, the unique circumstances surrounding any hypothetical "ending DLC" create problems, namely that the current ending is so strange that it will be hard for writers to reconcile it with fans' requests. The other problem is that as this debate over the ending goes on, there is the possibility that inside Bioware it may start to be viewed through a personal lens, and parties may refuse to support "ending DLC" based on pride, stubbornness, fear, or a range of other issues.

While some people continue to say that the game's content should not be changed because it harms the integrity of the artist or because it is not the role of fans to make artistic decisions, I think these arguments are short sited. American pop art is constantly being altered, and shaped to cater to the interests of the audience. TV show producers constantly analyze audience opinion with focus groups and change content accordingly, sometimes going so far as to make casting changes mid season. Many comic book artists are famously in touch with fans and will create alternate universes and time lines simply to appeal to audience interest. Even film directors will re-release their films with alternate endings and new scenes. Mass Effect is not a poem or painting, it is a video game franchise that is the creation of hundreds of computer programmers, artists, and businessmen/women. All this talk about entitled gamers and whiny kids in the basement is focused entirely on the tone of audience reaction, and does absolutely nothing to address the issue of whether products should be modified to satisfy consumer demand. That question was long ago answered in the affirmative.

The only reason a new ending to Mass Effect 3 would be a big deal is because parties would have an interest in the drama that surrounds the product, not because the content of an entertainment product was altered to appeal to audiences.

#47 Posted by CaptainCharisma (338 posts) -

@boj4ngles: Well said.

#48 Posted by Dookysharpgun (586 posts) -

@AndrewB: From what I've heard, the main writer from ME 1&2 left, and the guy who co-wrote 2 got lead on 3. I have no doubt they have many other writers, I should have clarified by saying main story writer. However, I will add that being credited doesn't mean that they did any work on it. I'm not saying that other elements of writing in ME3 were terrible, the character dialogue was as good as always, and the side missions were kind of interesting, but the main story, that led to the highly criticised ending, was one mans vision, and not the original games writer, from what I can tell. I'm saying that the guy who wrote the main story might have been good while kept in check by the original games main story writer, but when left on his own, he more than likely didn't have the ability to keep his eye on the goal. Even if the ending was slapped together last minute, there were very little variations to the writing, given what the original endings were supposed to be. Also be aware that Bioware have made mistakes, look at the Arrival DLC as a huge plothole, invalidating ME1, and the fact that for all their talk of appealing to a wider audience, they stuck in characters and a heap of references from prior games DLC, all of which were optional, and would make the already labyrinthian plot worse for newcomers, with little to no explanation.

See, the MP content in reviews to understand why I'm a skeptic, as people believed it would be 'tacked on', and 'pointless'...which is exactly what it has been touted as.

I do believe that EA had it in their heads that ME3 was a given seller...they were right. But the lack of sheen, the plotholes, the ending, the MP and the lacking basic elements of gameplay all point to a game that hadn't received the proper attention it deserved. Bioware don't really run themselves anymore, and I feel like this, along with DA2, show that there is a disconnect somewhere in the company, that certain elements are lacking in different projects. Bioware are capable of making mistakes, and maybe they should be learning from this and moving forward. Either way, I don't believe that even DLC could fix their writing mistakes.

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