@SpaceInsomniac said:

@DarknessDudeTOB said:

"We just want to release awesome stuff. Players please, give us a chance. Judge our games on what they are. Judge the DLC on what it is.Stop thinking you're a producer and telling when and where we should be building our content.

-Former BioWare designer, Christina Norman

[edit] Wait, she doesn't even work for BioWare anymore? Wher the hell does she get off using words like "we" and "our content"? Her statement was very poorly worded, but I'm glad to hear that it did not come from a [current] BioWare employee.

because it's a general statement

@DarknessDudeTOB said:

and have the most overpriced DLC I have ever seen. Over $10 bucks for one extra squad member?! Seriously though, I was amazing at this and laughed so hard.

a) where does it cost more than $10? I paid 800 MS points which is exactly $/€10 (and actually less in my case since I bought a cheaper points card during a sale - protip: be on the lookout for stuff like that)

b) please don't ignore that you're not just getting an extra squad member, you're also getting extra mission(s) and extra story content. if you're picking stuff apart, then you should at least get the facts straight.

she's definitely not to be faulted for saying that. all this drama simply stems from consumers not understanding a thing about development and developers not being able to tell consumers because they're not allowed, don't know how, don't know they should do that and most people wouldn't care anyway if they did. the problem is communication, as always.

@Sackmanjones said:

Here we go again!!!!!!!!! Pleas carefully enter the bioware hate train and keep your hands and legs inside at all times Also statement seems fine to me

God fucking damn it. Just because someone doesn't like BioWare/BioWare games any longer doesn't mean they're a "hater". Stop labeling everyone as a hater people. It's fucking annoying, more so than complain threads.

Edit: Also, I'd like to fucking point out that the purpose of a forum is people coming togethere and sharing ideas and opinions. The people on the "bioware hate train" are expressing theirs.

Everything BioWare has done PR wise in the last month or so has been abysmal. They could have easily simmered the anger down, but they've managed to make everyone more angry, at every turn.

That's impressive.

@onan: The context of the quote is the "Day 1 DLC".

Christina Norman brought it up at GDC, according to this article.

So, "good job" OP (and GameInformer?) for dredging up an almost 2 months old quote and posting it out of context? Because what we need is more controversy on this subject.

FWIW: Christina Norman was gameplay designer for Mass Effect 2, did a couple of blogs on the subject here on Giant Bomb. Left Bioware to be a Gameplay(Character? I don't know) Designer for League of Legends at Riot Games.

The way this has been handled was poor. What they should have tried instead is that those who buy the game new and redeem the "online pass" should have gotten "From Ashes" for free. There seems to be little reason or favors done for the player to "gate" this content at the start.

Meanwhile, I still haven't finished Mass Effect 3. 

Sorry, Christina, but no. If I feel like your content is suffering from the manner in which you're making it (which I do, and it is) then I'mma go ahead and say so if it's all the same to you. I think the shortcomings in Bioware's recent content are down to the manner in which it is being created - 'rushed' in the case of Dragon Age 2 and 'piecemeal' in the case of Mass Effect 3. I don't want to buy more content if it's going to be created in a rushed or piecemeal (DLC-led) manner, so I'd really rather they cut that shit out. The content being 'good' isn't justification for ignorning the issues if they're preventing it from being 'great'.

Whether the appropriate companies choose to listen to their customers or not is up to them, and ultimately they're the ones who will likely suffer if they don't, but they can't say they haven't been warned.

This 'Shut up and eat what you're given' attitude coming from the industry lately is repulsive and it has to stop. The press shouldn't be parroting it, and gamers certainly shouldn't be.

@LiquidPrince said:

@DarknessDudeTOB said:

I'm not trying to hate on anybody. It's just that I hate the statement that BioWare is trying to make. It's so damn obvious that BioWare is not paying attention for what we're asking for.

No the statement is right. People need to stop complaining. The DLC was not essential to beating the game. It was cool, but wasn't needed. If you hated the ending more power to you. Stop asking them to change it. They did what they did. Changing things never works out well because everyone has different expectations. You're going to end up with Star Warsitis and then complain about them changing stuff. If you want to download the new revised ending, again more power to you. There is a line where the consumer has with regards to influencing studios, and gamers very often cross that line.

'Beating the game' isn't the primary reason for playing games, so judging the DLC on that basis is pretty ludicrous.

@stryker1121 I agree I've seen people with legit threads get jumped on an that's not cool. I haven't even played it yet, still going through 2 on my marathon so I don't have an opinion about the ending yet. I just don't know how many more ME3 threads I can see before doing something drastic.

@artgarcrunkle said:

Judge our games for what they are but if your opinion is negative eat a bag of dicks you idiot what do you know.

Yeah, I don't think she would be saying that if ME3 got better praise from fans.

Nothing about Mass Effect 3 feels like some polarizing artistic statement, it just feels lazy, uninspired and corner-cutting. I don't have to be a producer to tell that the game was made in 18 months, probably featured Javik as an actual part of the game at some point, and could have been infinitely better if it was given more time.

@jillsandwich:That's not the context of the quote. The context is Day 1 DLC. And the quote is partial, so it's out of context of itself as well.

Christina Norman said that at GDC, at which point Mass Effect 3 hadn't really gotten much of a fan-response yet.

Also, I don't know which Mass Effect 3 you've played, but 99% of the game is pretty damned good. Just because the end is poorly made/bad/controversial, doesn't mean we should forget about the rest. And I don't think that I'm being overly apologetic for them - criticizism is fair, but give credit where credit is due.

edit: If you care, here's the context, and a longer part of the quote. Doesn't seem like anyone has recorded the "one minute rant", though, from what I can tell, which is a shame.

OCCUPY BIOWARE! C'MON! LET'S GO!' THAT'LL SHOW 'EM!

@Mnemoidian said:

@jillsandwich:That's not the context of the quote. The context is Day 1 DLC. And the quote is partial, so it's out of context of itself as well.

Christina Norman said that at GDC, at which point Mass Effect 3 hadn't really gotten much of a fan-response yet.

Also, I don't know which Mass Effect 3 you've played, but 99% of the game is pretty damned good. Just because the end is poorly made/bad/controversial, doesn't mean we should forget about the rest. And I don't think that I'm being overly apologetic for them - criticizism is fair, but give credit where credit is due.

edit: If you care, here's the context, and a longer part of the quote. Doesn't seem like anyone has recorded the "one minute rant", though, from what I can tell, which is a shame.

She would be correct, if Javik hadn't been cut from the game specifically to be DLC toward the end of development.

You know, when they should've been working on that ending.

@Mike76x: That's the first I've heard of that. Do you have a source for that? (Not that I see any cause to be super-upset about it anyway, that's just the reality of software development?)

And I'm not defending the end. I'm just trying to get the message across that the quote that this thread is about is taken out of context.

edit: assuming it's about "Javik's on the disc /rage" - here.

We wanted Javik to be a fully featured squad member, with deep dialogue throughout the game – and we needed him to be accessible via the character selection GUI (which you cannot simply ‘overwrite’ with DLC). Thus, certain elements of the Javik appearance and some of the VO needed to be included on the disc. That is a fact. But that doesn’t mean the content was created, and then removed.

Of course, if you are convinced Bioware is out to get you, that won't convince you, but *shrug*.

Javik is great content that is well worth the price of admission. By the way, you didn't laugh, you just came to the internet to bitch and whine about some out of context comment.

@S0ndor said:

Javik is great content that is well worth the price of admission. By the way, you didn't laugh, you just came to the internet to bitch and whine about some out of context comment.

Five bucks says you had no fucking clue it was out of context until Mnemoidian said so, probably same as the OP.

@Mnemoidian said:

@jillsandwich:That's not the context of the quote. The context is Day 1 DLC. And the quote is partial, so it's out of context of itself as well.

Christina Norman said that at GDC, at which point Mass Effect 3 hadn't really gotten much of a fan-response yet.

Also, I don't know which Mass Effect 3 you've played, but 99% of the game is pretty damned good. Just because the end is poorly made/bad/controversial, doesn't mean we should forget about the rest. And I don't think that I'm being overly apologetic for them - criticizism is fair, but give credit where credit is due.

edit: If you care, here's the context, and a longer part of the quote. Doesn't seem like anyone has recorded the "one minute rant", though, from what I can tell, which is a shame.

I agree that most of the game was good, but that doesn't mean we should forget about the ending. Even if the original quote is out of context, it still demonstrates Bioware's (although I still think they're just a puppet of EA) piss-poor customer service. You know damn well they wouldn't be offering free DLC to rectify the ending if not for the feedback they received.

And the reason they did? So people will think they care and buy the next version of KOTOR. It's becoming very cutthroat, and people are noticing, unfortunately for them.

I am completely with you, you are a way better game developer than they guys at Bioware!

Seriously what the fuck is wrong with the internet, you guys need to grow up.

@Ulain: Of course, the free "ending explanation DLC" is entirely a reaction to the controversy about the end.

What I don't like is how a lot of people seem to be having a hard time seeing a difference between "being a company" ("we need to have a positive cash inflow") and being evil ("Let's squeeze our customers for all their worth and sell them bad stuff!"). I have a really hard time thinking that the majority of people at Bioware, or even at EA are evil (feel free to apply this to your other favorite developers and publishers). They are companies who by definition need to make money [to make more games].

There is, however, a difference between complaining about a poor product or poor value of said product, and just blindly raging about Downloadable Content. Effectively, you've become the Soccer Hooligans of Video games - you show up for the fight, the games are just secondary. Case in point: A single-line quote is pulled (out of context) from a minute long rant made by a former Bioware employee (emphasis, reading the thread, I'm getting a feeling few have picked up on that) and are applying it to whatever scenario they think it's appropriate to. Effectively, you are hating on a company because of something someone who was once employed probably said at some point.

And I, personally, don't think that's ok.

I do think there's a debate to be had on a lot of these subjects, but I think we need to get past the outrage first.

You guys are still talking about this? Geez, go outside and Occupy something.

Please don't let the Giant Bomb forums become Reddit.

@DarknessDudeTOB said:

I'm not trying to hate on anybody. It's just that I hate the statement that BioWare is trying to make. It's so damn obvious that BioWare is not paying attention for what we're asking for.

If I worked at Bioware I'd be ignoring all of your complaining too. It's not constructive so how can you possibly expect any reciprocation?

@Ulain: You just lost five bucks. It's not too hard to figure out that she said more than a single sentence.

@SpaceInsomniac: The "we" could very well be game-designers as a whole. There is also a difference between a service job like working in retail and the production of a creative work. It seems like a reasonable sentiment to me, but I've also done some game design, so I'm admittedly a little biased.

@Napalm: I think she's only asking people not to get angry about stuff like day one DLC, and whether it was developed alongside the game, or after the game was completed. The time and manner of production should be less important than whether it is any good, and whether it is worth your money. I don't think your opinion is out of line with what she's asking, but a lot of people were complaining for the wrong reasons.

@Mnemoidian said:

@Ulain: Of course, the free "ending explanation DLC" is entirely a reaction to the controversy about the end.

What I don't like is how a lot of people seem to be having a hard time seeing a difference between "being a company" ("we need to have a positive cash inflow") and being evil ("Let's squeeze our customers for all their worth and sell them bad stuff!"). I have a really hard time thinking that the majority of people at Bioware, or even at EA are evil (feel free to apply this to your other favorite developers and publishers). They are companies who by definition need to make money [to make more games].

There is, however, a difference between complaining about a poor product or poor value of said product, and just blindly raging about Downloadable Content. Effectively, you've become the Soccer Hooligans of Video games - you show up for the fight, the games are just secondary. Case in point: A single-line quote is pulled (out of context) from a minute long rant made by a former Bioware employee (emphasis, reading the thread, I'm getting a feeling few have picked up on that) and are applying it to whatever scenario they think it's appropriate to. Effectively, you are hating on a company because of something someone who was once employed probably said at some point.

And I, personally, don't think that's ok.

I do think there's a debate to be had on a lot of these subjects, but I think we need to get past the outrage first.

Where I agree is that people are over reacting when they issue threats to employees, try to sue the company, make a separate thread for every thought on these forums, etc. People probably find it more fun to say the company is evil, but in reality, I'd say it's really a perception of them being lazy.

Obviously the company wants to make money, but it's also obvious they've been pretty fucking successful at that for almost 20 years. I doubt many people actively want to pay $10 for content that was available Day 1, yet they do, because the only other option is to not buy it. There is no haggling room, but you're still going to hear what people wanted to pay for it (which is probably zip in this case).

Their feedback isn't any less valid because they bought it or not; it's their presentation, much like this lady. Context or not, she sounded like an uppity bitch. She's since left for Riot (which probably explains the super OP champs lately) but I'm thinking it was less for creative differences and more about making bigger bucks at Riot. She was the lead designer, after all, I'm not thinking her opinions would suddenly do a 180 just because she left the company.

@Mnemoidian: Aside from it being completely on the disc, it is mentioned in "The Final Hours of Mass Effect" that the first Catalyst mission designated "CAT 1" where the player meets a living Prothean, was removed to be post release content.

That removal "had a domino effect on other elements of the story" They basically had to re-write entire segments of the game because of the DLC.

@Ulain: Of course, people are always of the opinion that "Day 1 DLC" shouldn't exist, it should always be contained in the main product - for free. To which I'll also use a Christina Norman quote (from the same one minute rant at GDC):

"There's no point in releasing DLC a year after your game has come out when most people have already sold your game back to GameStop three times,"

Basically, there's another business reason why you want Day 1 DLC, not "Month 3 DLC" (which people still get pissed about, re:People who have not played Asura's Wrath about Asura's Wrath DLC).

I also ran across this chart, which I laughed at before realizing that it's probably true: (I sadly don't know the source, as it was presented to sourceless)

I think it's a weird criticism towards DLC that it has too much value, but it's not worth $10. If DLC has no value, why would anyone buy it? Javik is not critical, but he adds a lot of interesting additional information. I got the Digital Deluxe edition (N7? Whatever it was named), which included From Ashes. But I did not use Javik because I would rather use my other squadmates (I felt it more appropriate to bring more the more diplomatic and scientifically interested characters for most missions).

She's since left for Riot (which probably explains the super OP champs lately) but I'm thinking it was less for creative differences and more about making bigger bucks at Riot. She was the lead designer, after all, I'm not thinking her opinions would suddenly do a 180 just because she left the company.

And rightly so - She's probably proud off the work she put into Mass Effect 2 (and to some degree 3, though Preston Watamaniuk took over being Lead Gameplay Designer (same person who was Lead Designer for ME1 and ME2, FYI)), I also want to point out that "since" is a weird fit considering she's been at Riot for 10 Months now (according to LinkedIn), I just have a hard time seeing people attributing her comments to Bioware.

@Mike76x: Ah, right - I remember reading something about that, but I'll have to re-read that part when I get home before I can properly respond to that. I could make a reasonable guess why it was cut, based on the image above, but I'm sure I'd be accused of reaching ;)

It's a video game. It baffles me how people get actually become like this because a video game disappointed them. How do they respond to actual problems?

@Mnemoidian: I wasn't bothered originally by "From Ashes" because I got the Collectors edition, and I considered it Collectors Edition content.

For years collectors editions have offered exclusive stuff you couldn't get any other way, and I saw this as offering that content to everyone.

Javik isn't critical, but he was at one point. They had to spend time changing their "artistic vision" to accommodate a cash grab.

@Mike76x: Right, found it. Much as I suspected, From Ashes is touched in chapter 9 (page 3-4), the chapter about their difficulty in meeting the announced release date.

The quote is: (spoiler-tagged because of story and Final-Hours-of-Mass-Effect-3-spoilers, just in case anyone cares).

Basically, it was cut for time, not "cut so that it could become Day 1 DLC". As for how it could be cut for time but still be ready for Day 1 DLC release... see above chart for how Day-1 DLC works?

Kinda like the statement. I'm tired of companies being so PR friendly about shitty fans. You have to admit that a percentage of Bioware fans have been terrible people towards Bioware. Fromm the FTC filling to personal attacks, this shit has gotten out of control.

The thing I get from that is that they were time crunched across the entire scope of the project. I have to wonder how they got into a situation where they had so much work they had to cut "From Ashes" to make it fit the schedule. That stuff wasn't small or trivial content. The cost estimates or negotiation must have been really weird to cut that much stuff and be acceptable.

@Mnemoidian said:

@Mike76x: Right, found it. Much as I suspected, From Ashes is touched in chapter 9 (page 3-4), the chapter about their difficulty in meeting the announced release date.

The quote is: (spoiler-tagged because of story and Final-Hours-of-Mass-Effect-3-spoilers, just in case anyone cares).

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

[...], and a new release date was set for March 2012.

The team had bpought a few more months of development, but Watamaniuk and Hudson knew that even with extra time they needed to make a few trims to the story. [...]

[...]After much deliberation, what was known as the first "CAT" or catalyst mission, where the player would first meet a Prothean alien for the first time, was removed from the overarching plot. The mission would later be completed as post-release content, but to many ont he team it was a heartbreaking loss.
Of course no decision on a game like Mass Effect is made in isolation. The removal of the Prothean mission had a domino effect on other elements of the story.

Basically, it was cut for time, not "cut so that it could become Day 1 DLC". As for how it could be cut for time but still be ready for Day 1 DLC release... see above chart for how Day-1 DLC works?

Wait, where did you get that quote?

@Scrawnto said:

@SpaceInsomniac: The "we" could very well be game-designers as a whole. There is also a difference between a service job like working in retail and the production of a creative work. It seems like a reasonable sentiment to me, but I've also done some game design, so I'm admittedly a little biased.

I don't believe fans are wrong about this, and I genuinely believe the ME3 ending is shit, but that's not the point. This ended up actually being about the ME3 DLC, and I think that was shit as well, but that's also not the point. My issue isn't with WHAT was said, but the way it was said.

"We appreciate the enthusiasm and the passion of our fans, but we stand behind our choices."

Or

"Stop thinking you're a producer and telling when and where we should be building our content."

Both say pretty much the exact same thing, but only one of them made Christina Norman look like an ignorant bitch who talks down to her customers when they don't agree with her.

@SpaceInsomniac: http://me3finalhours.com/ (My version being for iPad, not sure if pages are same for other version).

Also, regarding the quote, I don't understand why you (and others) are offended by being told to "stop thinking you are a producer" (derived from you calling her "an ignorant bitch" (which I feel is a bit extreme?), when you (and I) are consumers and costumers, not actually producers. Seems like some form of deep mistrust of the developer, if you really feel they need to clear production decisions with you...?

@Mnemoidian said:

@SpaceInsomniac: http://me3finalhours.com/ (My version being for iPad, not sure if pages are same for other version).

Also, regarding the quote, I don't understand why you (and others) are offended by being told to "stop thinking you are a producer" (derived from you calling her "an ignorant bitch"), when you (and I) are consumers and costumers, not actually producers. Seems like some form of deep mistrust of the developer, if you really feel they need to clear production decisions with you...?

What about the point that I'm making are you not getting?

1 "We appreciate the enthusiasm and the passion of our fans, but we stand behind our choices."

2 "Stop thinking you're a producer and telling when and where we should be building our content."

3 "My customers who don't agree with me can go fuck themselves. Ignorant little shits know nothing about game design anyway."

Again, all three of those say pretty much the exact same thing, albeit in a progressively more inflammatory manor. They all acknowledge that customers care about the product, and they all make the statement that the developer stands behind their choices. The question is WHY would someone ever use language that could / will upset their customers, when they can word the same thing a different way?

And to put that yet another way: If I'm not happy with the choices of a particular game developer, they should feel free to essentially tell me to fuck off, but they probably shouldn't LITERALLY tell me to fuck off.

How on earth are you getting "if you really feel they need to clear production decisions with you" from that?

@Mnemoidian said:

I don't understand why you (and others) are offended by being told to "stop thinking you are a producer"

I addressed this specific question earlier in the thread, so I'll quote that:

Each and every current and former BioWare employee can can take whatever personal stance they like concerning this issue. I don't care if She thinks the ending should be changed, or if she's completely opposed to changing a single word. That's not at all the point. My point is that there is a right way and a wrong way to say everything, and this was the wrong way. Just like going to the official ME3 forums and saying, "fuck you BioWare, you owe me an ending that isn't shit!" is also the wrong way.

The vast majority of people unhappy with the ending have made no demand of any sort. They simply have expressed disappointment with the ending. Some of them have expressed interest in seeing BioWare make optional DLC to clarify or otherwise adjust the original ending. These people do not appreciate being colored as "backseat producers," nor do they deserve to be referred to as such.

We now know her statement was only related to the DLC, but much of what I wrote still stands.

@SpaceInsomniac:

The question is WHY would someone ever use language that could / will upset their customers, when they can word the same thing a different way?

Because Corporate language and something said at a Game Developer Conference rant (by someone who has been at another company for 10 months), while people were raging about how horrible Day 1 DLC was, regarding "From Ashes" (which no one had seen at the time) is quite different? I don't really understand what's offensive about number 1 though... surely the people behind the product are allowed to say "Hey, it sucks that you didn't like it, but this is what we wanted"? Sometimes this is because the product isn't to your tastes, and sometimes it's because the product is bad.

And to put that yet another way: If I'm not happy with the choices of a particular game developer, they should feel free to essentially tell me to fuck off, but they probably shouldn't LITERALLY tell me to fuck off.

That's not it at all. Producer and Consumer are at the extreme ends of each spectrum. One creates, one consumes. It's like walking into a kitchen at a restaurant and telling the chef how to prepare your meal versus sending back a poorly cooked meal. Of course, as a consumer and costumer you are in your full right to complain about poor products and poor value.

Of course, the analogy breaks down as soon as you say you prefer meals you have prepared yourself, but work with me here! :)

(and I realize there's a fine line between my two points in this post, producer right vs consumer right, but that's how it needs to be, I think?)

@DarknessDudeTOB said:

Recently I was reading a GameInformer magazine that was about Halo 4 mostly, but I found this in one of the sections about BioWare.

"We just want to release awesome stuff. Players please, give us a chance. Judge our games on what they are. Judge the DLC on what it is.Stop thinking you're a producer and telling when and where we should be building our content.

-Former BioWare designer, Christina Norman

Honestly, I think this is the worst statement ever. We are trying to give you a chance. We are judging your games on what they are. We are judging a DLC on what it is. We aren't thinking we're producers. We're trying to tell you that you screwed up big-time on the ending of Mass Effect 3 and have the most overpriced DLC I have ever seen. Over $10 bucks for one extra squad member?! Seriously though, I was amazing at this and laughed so hard.

She's right, I had a design lead (who will remain nameless) tell me "When you run a multi-million dollar studio you can make whatever you want, but you don't, so stop bitching."

In other words, go run your own video game studio and make whatever games you want, until then, like or hate the games but don't sit there and tell them what to do. I kind of like that.

PS - I'm talking to the internet, not just to you - so you don't misread this as an attack, that's not what I'm getting at.

@Mnemoidian

At this point, we're not even having the same debate. I have an issue with how something was said, and you have an issue with whether or not it's true. I'm just going to respectfully bow out, here. I've said all that I wanted to say.

@Mnemoidian said:

@Mike76x: Right, found it. Much as I suspected, From Ashes is touched in chapter 9 (page 3-4), the chapter about their difficulty in meeting the announced release date.

The quote is: (spoiler-tagged because of story and Final-Hours-of-Mass-Effect-3-spoilers, just in case anyone cares).

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

[...], and a new release date was set for March 2012.

The team had bpought a few more months of development, but Watamaniuk and Hudson knew that even with extra time they needed to make a few trims to the story. [...]

[...]After much deliberation, what was known as the first "CAT" or catalyst mission, where the player would first meet a Prothean alien for the first time, was removed from the overarching plot. The mission would later be completed as post-release content, but to many ont he team it was a heartbreaking loss.
Of course no decision on a game like Mass Effect is made in isolation. The removal of the Prothean mission had a domino effect on other elements of the story.

Basically, it was cut for time, not "cut so that it could become Day 1 DLC". As for how it could be cut for time but still be ready for Day 1 DLC release... see above chart for how Day-1 DLC works?

They think Day 1 DLC is necessary, without Javik they have no day 1 DLC.

This thread is so "amazing".

Judge our games for what they are but if your opinion is negative eat a bag of dicks you idiot what do you know.

Is she even talking about Bioware in that statement? I think it would be funnier and more offensive if she were talking about Riot.

Bioware beat me up and stole my lunch money

@JeanLuc said:

Christina Norman doesn't even work for BioWare anymore so don't proclaim that statement is BioWare's cause its not.

She was the Mass Effect gameplay lead. It's not like she's some random outsider talking through her arse. She's some relevant insider talking through her arse.

@Mnemoidian said:

Basically, there's another business reason why you want Day 1 DLC, not "Month 3 DLC" (which people still get pissed about, re:People who have not played Asura's Wrath about Asura's Wrath DLC).

I also ran across this chart, which I laughed at before realizing that it's probably true: (I sadly don't know the source, as it was presented to sourceless)

I greatly appreciate the chart; if that is in fact true (that it is basically a separate team working on that and any future DLC) then this part of the argument seems over :)

The part I'm still having trouble with...

"There's no point in releasing DLC a year after your game has come out when most people have already sold your game back to GameStop three times,"

While a year seems pretty realistic to remove most support to a game, I'm guessing, based on her other show-stopping comments, that she probably wouldn't bother wanting to do DLC after 3 months.

...I also want to point out that "since" is a weird fit considering she's been at Riot for 10 Months now (according to LinkedIn), I just have a hard time seeing people attributing her comments to Bioware.

The time she's been out of Bioware seems irrelevant; as the lead designer of the game, she made conscious choices of what to do, and what to say, so I can only assume her team members and perhaps a good chunk of the company are/were on the same wavelength.

Also, regarding the quote, I don't understand why you (and others) are offended by being told to "stop thinking you are a producer" (derived from you calling her "an ignorant bitch" (which I feel is a bit extreme?), when you (and I) are consumers and costumers, not actually producers. Seems like some form of deep mistrust of the developer, if you really feel they need to clear production decisions with you...?

I'd say with this, she is the one who had clue what the context of her statement was: Producers are the only ones allowed to give critical (read: negative) feedback? The impression I get from her is that she thinks consumers need her, not the other way around. Games are a privilege, and Bioware doesn't have a monopoly on them.

I can't wait to see what she does at Riot, considering that game doesn't even cost you a cent if you so choose. People not paying for a product probably have absolutely no say in her mind :(

@Ulain:

I greatly appreciate the chart; if that is in fact true (that it is basically a separate team working on that and any future DLC) then this part of the argument seems over :)

It's pretty much how Software development tends to work. Project is Planned -> Design does the design -> Engineering develops the product -> Testing tests. There is definite overlap and there are parts they'll be working together with (Engineering can't get something to work like Design wanted it to, Design realizes their design needs more time to be implemented than Project management allocated), but that's basically it (there are of course different ways different companies work).

Also, regarding the quote, I don't understand why you (and others) are offended by being told to "stop thinking you are a producer" (derived from you calling her "an ignorant bitch" (which I feel is a bit extreme?), when you (and I) are consumers and costumers, not actually producers. Seems like some form of deep mistrust of the developer, if you really feel they need to clear production decisions with you...?

I'd say with this, she is the one who had clue what the context of her statement was: Producers are the only ones allowed to give critical (read: negative) feedback? The impression I get from her is that she thinks consumers need her, not the other way around. Games are a privilege, and Bioware doesn't have a monopoly on them.

I can't wait to see what she does at Riot, considering that game doesn't even cost you a cent if you so choose. People not paying for a product probably have absolutely no say in her mind :(

Well, I don't think that's it (I obviously don't know, as I don't know her, but it doesn't make any sense).

What I'm saying, and if I may quote myself from a different post: "That's not it at all. Producer and Consumer are at the extreme ends of each spectrum. One creates, one consumes. It's like walking into a kitchen at a restaurant and telling the chef how to prepare your meal versus sending back a poorly cooked meal. Of course, as a consumer and costumer you are in your full right to complain about poor products and poor value." What I feel she's talking about is asking you not to tell them what to put in their Game Design Documents but not about taking away your rights as Consumers (which is what I'm talking about with the whole Producer vs Consumer analogy). Also, the thing to note here, is that the statement was made at GDC 2012 (March 5th to 9th), at which point the game was just releasing, and Christina Norman was reacting to the consumer response. And all we, the consumers knew about "From Ashes" was the leaked details of a Prothean Squadmate - we didn't actually know what it was.

In other words, a strong negative reaction to something we didn't know what it was. Maybe it could've been more eloquently put? Maybe she didn't realize it would be plastered over gaming news sites and dragged around forums for almost 2 months? Maybe it was just the frustration at the moment speaking? *shrug* Personally, sometimes I feel like Enthusiasm/Gaming press shouldn't be reporting from GDC, and that all reporting should come from Development-industry press. But then I realize it would make no difference... so carry on?

And, well... looking at Mass Effect 2, they did support it for almost a year, with the main game being released January 26th (along side Day 1 DLC, in the form of the Cerberus Network stuff: Normandy Crash site and Zaaed) and Lair of the Shadow Broker being released September 7th. I'd guess that that would have been the plan for Mass Effect 3 as well, prior to all of this.

The hate of how the DLC was handled comes from the fact that it seems like it wasn't free due to multiplayer.

ME2: Day one DLC is free with a new copy, features a new character and new mission that isn't even slightly related to the main story. This is primarily done to encourage people to buy a new copy of the game.

ME3: Day one DLC is $10.00, features a new character and new mission that is strongly related to the main story. Content was originally planned as part of the retail game, but was cut late in development to be sold as day one DLC. Instead of a free mission, a multiplayer pass is included with new copies of the game.

Now seriously, how does she expect Mass Effect fans to react to something like that?

And now we're moved onto the word 'producer', because 'artistic integrity' wasn't enough for them.

Last time I checked, 'former' means that you don't hold that position anymore. So...yeah...she's probably going to draw piles of negative attention because she can't keep her mouth shut.

I don't care anymore, honestly, I don't. This entire situation has shown just how shit this industry has become, and how petty developers, publisher and journalists, along with fans and non-fans, have become in the face of criticism. In this situation, nobody is any better than anyone else, because we're all in the shit.